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Koraath
31-05-2005, 11:48
I have been wondering about this for some time now, Imperial Navy Admirals, are they hard wired into their ships like other captains or are the free to move from ship to planet to space station etc. in order to perform other duties that arise rom this position

I would have thought that they are like the latter but i don't really know

Thoughts?

athamas
31-05-2005, 12:54
admarals move from fleet to fleet, and work their way up the command chain, thus are not intergrated, but it would not surprise me if they had MIU's or simular.

Sai-Lauren
31-05-2005, 12:59
Some are, some aren't. The usual 40k answer of "It depends..." ;)

IMO most wouldn't be, they've got to look at the big picture (especially in combat), make diplomatic appearances and so on, wheras a captain's responsibilites usually begin and end with his ship. Plus admirals may decide to transfer their flag to another vessel (say the main fleet with the big battleship is heading off to one system for refitting, but the admirals sending a battlegroup lead by a battlecruiser off to hunt down a pirate pack somewhere else, and going with them to handle the campaign himself, then they'll all meet up at a third system two months later, or if the admiral wants to monitor the performance of a particular vessels crew first hand). IIRC, the BFG rules for imperial fleets don't require the admiral to be on the biggest ship, only to be on a capital ship - whilst the rules for chaos and orks do require the leader to be on the biggest ship.

Donut
31-05-2005, 13:02
I figure it'd depend on the Admiral. Theoretically, an Admiral could perform their duties adequately even if hardwired into a ship through the miracle of technology. It would of course restrict their actions somewhat in choice of flagships and the like, and thus doesn't make a lot of sense overall.

Speaking of which, it doesn't make a lot of sense for all captains to immediately be hard wired into their ships, since obviously that significantly retards their opportunities for advancement. For example, a captain hard wired into an escort would not be a viable option for fleet admiral. I can only see hard wiring occuring in cases of captain injury, such as the case of the Drachenfels and Captain Ramas.

athamas
31-05-2005, 13:04
i think capitan are masters of the ship, rather that commanding officers of a fleet,

the ship is theirs, and they direct everything that hapens on their ship, but thats it!

Koraath
31-05-2005, 13:05
Almost every captain I have come across in the background stuff and in the novels has been hard wired to his ship even the space marine ones.

Maybe the admirals are a seperate command chain like the lord generals of the guard

Marty D
31-05-2005, 13:33
couldnt captains and the like just have sockets in their heads/ arms whatever (ala matrix) and move from ship to ship as required?

this would make more sense instead of just being welded in place

Sojourner
31-05-2005, 13:51
Captains don't need to be wired up, they have thousands of servitors for that. I'm sure they can at their discretion, but they're too important to permanently bind like that. Agreeing with Marty, sockets ahoy.

Delicious Soy
31-05-2005, 14:32
Considering that Princeps and Moderati of the titan legions are able to get up and walk and live outside a titan (Princeps Mannheim of Armageddon II fame had a family so he must be pretty 'whole' so to speak), ships captains would have little trouble. Personally I can only think of two captains sealed in their chambers, the captain of the Drachenfels in Execution Hour and the Captain of the battle ship in Sabbat Martyr.

Rich
31-05-2005, 14:47
I don't think captains are routinely hard-wired into their ship, except in cases of extreme injury. It's just that the "rule of cool" demands that they often appear that way in novels :rolleyes:

Sai-Lauren
31-05-2005, 15:44
Considering that Princeps and Moderati of the titan legions are able to get up and walk and live outside a titan (Princeps Mannheim of Armageddon II fame had a family so he must be pretty 'whole' so to speak), ships captains would have little trouble.

They do suffer from link withdrawl when outside, some worse than others.



Personally I can only think of two captains sealed in their chambers, the captain of the Drachenfels in Execution Hour and the Captain of the battle ship in Sabbat Martyr.
The captain of the AM ship in First and Only was hardwired as well.

Thinking a little more about it, I would say that it would be against navy policy to wire the captain in, except if given special dispensation by (say) sector command. After all, if they go rogue, it's very difficult for the ships commissar to remove them from command if the entire ship's command and control system goes straight down a wire plugged between the captains 3rd and 4th vertebrae - there may be system safeguards and countermeasures, but they'll be a lot harder to activate than a las bolt to the temple.

Those who've really proven their loyalty over many campaigns, but are either severly injured or are judged to have reached their optimum level of command may become part of their ship. Others may be linked like titan crews, semi-permenantly, whilst the majority are un-linked.

Xisor
31-05-2005, 22:08
When looking at 'Fleet' Fluff, go for the proper sources that have to do with BFG and not ill informed/ill thought out versions like most of the representations of the Navy in BL Fluff.

Typically, most are *not* wired into their ships, in the Gothic Sector. The Captain of the Gothic Cruiser(both of their names I forget) was well renowned for being totally wired to his vessel.

Rather, the way a captain works the vessel should be in orders to servitor 'legions' who *are* wired into the ship.

I would venture that Admirals are *not* wired to the ships, not permenantly anyway. How can they maintain their political power if they are permenantly tied to a ship. Personally, I don't think they could.

Xisor

PS IMO Execution Hour and Shadowpoints interpretation of Leoten Semper is 'more or less' how a navy ship is run, with the other aforementioned captains being representative of the variety possible.

milmot
02-06-2005, 05:15
I would imagine both admirals and captains have to be wired to their ships. Ala Titan princeps style. I'm sure some captain become really attached to their ship and would keep having more sockets and wires installed until they are pretty much part of the ship. But in cases of admirals, they would have been a captain at some point in their career, as they rose up the ranks. Admirals would need experiance in captaining a ship before being promoted to admiral.

So i'm guessing the admirals would have sockets at the back of their heads that are compatible with most sockets on ships. So even if they move their flag, or even visit ships within his fleet, he can plug in and get information.

Even during leading his fleet, i would wager a admiral would want to be "plugged" in so he has can observer the battle more accurately. ie starmaps, positions of ships and enemies would all be displayed in his mind.

Minister
02-06-2005, 16:12
Lord Admiral Nelson steps up to the plate once more...

The Imperial Navy does not, as a matter of course, hardwire its' officers to their ships. Bionic augmentation to allow partial interface is common (particularly a monacle style bionic implant is highly popular), but the majority of tasks which require a direct interface are performed by monotask servitors or by lexmechanics. It is the captain's duty to direct his ship, not to micro-manage. As long as he knows the rough shape his vessel is in and knows the relative position of other ships involved in the engagment he has suficient information to act.

Theonly members of a ships crew who have direct connections as a matter of course are members of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

There is also wisdom in sci-fi of not being next to a large console. How many bridge crew have you seen being hit by exploding consoles, hmmm?

Delicious Soy
03-06-2005, 13:02
There is also wisdom in sci-fi of not being next to a large console. How many bridge crew have you seen being hit by exploding consoles, hmmm?Ahh yes but the Imperial Navy is far too smart for that, they simply avoiding the risk by having all uniforms in Blue instead of Red. :p

2_heads_talking
03-06-2005, 16:56
Imperial Navy captains and Admirals are not 'hard-wired' into their systems. As is stated before, the captains job is to give orders. His bridge crew give him/her the information they need to make those decisions. If not, why have a bridge crew? It would simply be the captain locked in a room surrounded by wires.

Also, if anyone has the boxed set of Battlefleet Gothic, there was a short 'comic' inside and this showed the captaain to be an ordinary man who could stand up and walk around and give his orders to the restg of his crew. He didn't fire torpedoes or gun batteries himself; that's what the thousands of ratings on board the craft were press-ganged into doing.

If anyone would like to see the comic I could scan it and send it to you.

Minister
03-06-2005, 21:32
Ahh yes but the Imperial Navy is far too smart for that, they simply avoiding the risk by having all uniforms in Blue instead of Red. :p
They tried that on B5 and it didn't work (and indeed their ships tended to be lost with all hands on a depressing basis). It also resulted in more interesting deaths (a captain in In The Begining being impaled on a suppport spar comes hazily to mind). Besides, goldshirts died in TNG as well. :D

That, and not all IN forces wear blue. Obscuras, I belive, is given as green by Abnet (but then again, what does he know).

Emperor's Light
04-06-2005, 01:18
The whole "captain being wired into the ship" crap is one of the most idiotic things to emerge from Black Library books. I can accept some kind of limited cybernetic implant to access information from surveyors, but certainly no permanent attachment like the captain of the Drachenfaels in Execution Hour. At the very least, I would consider those rare cases - unique honors bestowed on particular senior captains badly wounded in action like the captain of the Drachenfaels.

In fact, the idea of Titan Princeps having a permanent attachment to their titan is ill-thought out. Dan Abnett suggests that basically a princeps becomes linked to one titan, and if they are separated both the titan and the princeps begin to deteriorate. If nothing else, that means you can't promote Princeps from titan to titan, so you have to assign an Emperor class titan - one of the most powerful and valuable assessts of the Legio Titanicus - to some jackass with no combat experience. Personally, I think the idea of having "princeps cadets" to be absolutely idiotic. Rather than promoting through the ranks so even new princeps have abundent combat experience, the titan legions are going to give command of the "God Machines" to wet-behind-the-ears "cadets" with ZERO combat experience.

The same goes for ships. Are you going to give command of an Emperor class battleship to some newly promoted captain with no command experience? Is an admiral going have to have his flag on a cobra class destroyer because that was what he was assigned when he first got command?

Minister
04-06-2005, 02:09
Remember, parts can be moved between vessels or titans, although not always easily.

It has always been known that a Princeps is linked to his titan in both mind and body. It has always been the case that the two form a link from the first interface, and that a princeps must engage in a battle of wills with the brute in order to achieve dominance. It also seems reasonable that withdrawl symptoms will be caused by extended seperation. Change of command for a titan crew is dificult, even traumatic, but is seen as a necicary part of the command structure.

Xisor
04-06-2005, 02:40
I think the comparison of ship to titan is *very* flawed.

In principle it'd seem a titan is simply a very very very big version of Power Armour. Some Princeps have good relationships with their machine, some don't. The same goes for power armour.

I'm confident a princeps *could* be promoted, in a relatively same way as a marine can be promoted to use Terminator Armour, it takes time to adjust.

For ships the same *could* apply, I just think 1) it'd be a hell of a lot more poblematic and 2) 'outlawed' by the majority of the fleet. I'm not sure the Adeptus Mechanicus would approve of some green naval officer getting to 'close' to a Cobra Class Destroyer, let alone a Ramillies Class Star Fort!

As Emperor's Light suggests, permitted non-Mechanicus interface with machines such as starships is likely only permitted to trusted and well respected captains akin to that of the Drachenfels.

Xisor

Minister
04-06-2005, 18:23
True. There is also the problem that a ship's captain may well be lost to sensory overload if the ship takes heavy damage (he will black out or even die whilst the ship may still be opperational) when it is at this point that strong leadership is needed most.

There is also the problem that, within the 40K universe at least, the more implants one recieves, the less human the recipient is. The exact reason is not given, but it is seen in several places (most prominantly the Necromundian Pit Slaves and the Adeptus Mechanicus).

Silent_lord
29-09-2005, 12:51
Personally i think admirals don't command ships often, unless it's a vital battle.
the way i see it, once promoted to admiral it's pretty much a desk job.

Admiral - tied to desk
Commodore - able to command fleet etc
Captain - master of his ship

i hate it when wh40k novels have admirals all over the place, sure it's a cool rank but captain is by far the best.

But then again that's just my opinion

BlackJuju
29-09-2005, 14:57
40k Imperial Fleet is based upon the old Imperial Japanese Navy. Admirals can move from ship to ship or from fleet from fleet. The Ship also can chaneg fleets depending the current operation needs and standards

CELS
29-09-2005, 16:38
Admirals aren't tied to desks. That's what the Administratum and Munitorum is for.

I personally don't see any problems with Imperial captains being connected to their ships. It works very well with the idea that the captain should go down with his ship :)

Sojourner
29-09-2005, 16:48
Agreement with CELS. The administrative duties are taken by the Departmento Munitorum. Admirals may not be shipside the whole time but their duties are mainly tactical.

cpl_hicks
29-09-2005, 18:57
from what ive read of the current background and my interpretation of it is this

all ship commanders have nural jacks that allow them to conect into the ship, now i see this type of conenction as adictive the more you use it the more you need it, in first and only the AM captain says to himself that he hasent been out of that chair for centureys, so he at one point must have been able to leve but one day decided to just stay there and get really really big

so all the commanding officers have the jacks its there own self will that stops them from living in the chair for ages

Sojourner
29-09-2005, 19:09
I suppose it depends on the ship. Those fleets whose policy was to build neural connections into the system do use them; those that haven't, don't. Leoten Semper in Execution Hour didn't as far as I know. Remember the Imperium is incredibly vast and has been round for ten thousand years. Policy and implementation has probably risen and fallen in different areas dozens or hundreds of times, and there's room for anything.

LostTemplar
29-09-2005, 19:39
Well, going by the BFG book, there aren't any commanders, as far as I know, being linked to their vessels. However, there is a large number of Adeptus Mechanicos and Servitors portrayed what seem to be connected to the ship.

At best, it'd be like the image provided during the EOT in which a Imperial Commander is looking down upon a image of a Phantom Titan. Ie. Somewhere in the bridge there's a guy all wired up and cnnected to the ship, maybe not just one, but a few dozen of them, monitoring the place.

The Captain's Authority is mostly, vocal. However I can honestly believe in the occasional commander taking the place of one of those individuals, but I postulate that the Adeptus Mechanicus wouldn't really like that idea.

Or maybe they'd love it. It'd boil down to the ship's own Machine Spirit.