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Lord Xcapobl
04-05-2011, 08:37
Hi all. As the title indicates, questions about spears and shields.

Does a spear count as a hand weapon with regards to a shield and gaining the 6+ ward save in close combat?

if not, can we assume that the front row of a unit fights with hand weapons and shields (as all models are assumed to have a hand weapon), and the next rank(s) use their spears for the extra supporting attacks?

Assuming the latter, if you have a unit 5 models wide, 3 ranks deep, the front rank fights with hand weapons/shields and the other ranks fight with spears/shields. Now the unit suffers 7 close combat hits. Do I get 5 ward saves, or 7? (Where the answer of '7' would indicate spears are hand weapons with regards to shields, as these saves would be made for the second rank, from a certain point of view.)

tarrasque
04-05-2011, 08:50
no spears are not hand weapons but special weapons.
for you second question read page 89 close combat weapons
and you will see that you will have to use your spear

Jerubaal
04-05-2011, 08:51
Surely the whole unit has to use the same weapons? So if you elect to use hand weapon/shield then you wouldn't get the extra rank of attacks. Can't remember if you can change weapons each combat phase, or need to stick with it the whole combat.

T10
04-05-2011, 09:14
Can't remember if you can change weapons each combat phase, or need to stick with it the whole combat.
Neither. The default rule is that a model armed with a special weapon has to use that weapon. This means that a model with a shield and a spear cannot elect not to use its spear.

-T10

Lord Xcapobl
04-05-2011, 13:37
So, basically, the only benefit a spear/shield wielder has, is the basic reduction of 1 on its regular armour save.

Got it. Thanks.

Big Boss Scholes
04-05-2011, 13:45
and it can fight in an extra rank.

Korraz
04-05-2011, 14:35
So, basically, the only benefit a spear/shield wielder has, is the basic reduction of 1 on its regular armour save.

Got it. Thanks.

The armor save for both weapons is the same.
Handweapon/Shield allows you to parry, Spears give you an extra rank.

T10
04-05-2011, 16:29
The armor save for both weapons is the same.
Handweapon/Shield allows you to parry, Spears give you an extra rank.

Hardly worth it in comparison to the reality-shattering power of the 6+ ward save!

Korraz
04-05-2011, 20:46
Well said, T10, well said.
The 6+ ward save has toppled nations! Empires! Behold its might!

Tarian
05-05-2011, 00:30
It saved a clan rat once... or twice... End of the World!

Lord Xcapobl
05-05-2011, 08:04
If it saved a clan rat twice...

one a male, and one a female...

Then I think it would be a safe bet to say an entire new clan can arise within a matter of days? And that clan can then split off several members to found new clans elsewhere, and so on and so forth. In the end, there will be nothing but rats!

End of the world indeed.

;)

Wade Wilson
05-05-2011, 10:00
Neither. The default rule is that a model armed with a special weapon has to use that weapon. This means that a model with a shield and a spear cannot elect not to use its spear.

-T10

not questioning that point...but why do dark elf spearmen have both spears and a hand weapon if that is the case?

tarrasque
05-05-2011, 11:03
not questioning that point...but why do dark elf spearmen have both spears and a hand weapon if that is the case?

every unit has hand weapon but if you read the page i said there is an explanation why and how it works.

Memnos
05-05-2011, 11:06
Hah! Bring on your hand weapon and shields.

My Cygor gets to reroll to hit you because you're carrying shields.

That's right. The blind guy can see you better because you've decided to try to block his blows. And there's no parry save vs Thunderstomp, bay-bee!

Seabo
05-05-2011, 11:20
@Memnos
?
Parry save from a shield ain't magical....
Sorry but the Cygor would still flail around worse then a 90yr old grandma suffering from dimentia and then die horribly :p

Artinam
05-05-2011, 11:22
But no, my Spear wielding Men-at-Arms laugh at your rerolling as we cannot parry because of our special weapons!

Memnos
05-05-2011, 12:17
CURSE YOU AND YOUR SPEARMEN! I get no reroll! :(

Sorry, Seabo. He gets a reroll against any model with a ward save. Spearmen - No reroll. Swordsmen? Reroll!

eron12
06-05-2011, 04:06
not questioning that point...but why do dark elf spearmen have both spears and a hand weapon if that is the case?

To add to what Tarrasque said, the Dark Elf Army Book was writen during 7th edition, where you could choose what weapon to use, though you had to use the same weapon for the whole unit and for the whole combat. 8th removed the choice.

Lord Xcapobl
06-05-2011, 07:16
Which makes me wonder, what the new army books tell us? Whether or not those units have just their special weapons, or a (useless) hand weapon as well. Especially since army books override basic rulebook (which itself states that all models have a hand weapon).

Ferrous82
06-05-2011, 18:08
Since the BRB has a bit in it that says something to the effect of "In general, a model is always assumed to have a hand weapon, even if its not listed, or it's original has been destroyed by some means", I would say its moot.

T10
07-05-2011, 20:50
not questioning that point...but why do dark elf spearmen have both spears and a hand weapon if that is the case?
GW might some day introduce a rule that denies the model the use of its special weapon. But yeah, its a lecacy thing. Elves use pointy weapons, its their thing.

FestHest
07-05-2011, 21:29
Think of 9th edition when you again can change between your weapons and handweapons will get flying auto killing blow, then a lot of people will begin argueing if 'handweapon' should be in the unit entry or it is allways a option.
Or maybe Im putting too much foresight in GW's rulemonkering crew....

IrishDelinquent
09-05-2011, 03:47
Well T10, there is already a rule allowing a model to choose what weapon it fights with. It's called Armed to Da Teef. Granted, only one unit has it, but there is precedence for it already. Maybe other units will get another similar rule, and thereby make Black Orcs even less useful.

Wade Wilson
09-05-2011, 09:18
every unit has hand weapon but if you read the page i said there is an explanation why and how it works.

Thanks for that. I totaly missed the part about specialised weapons training. I would blame the extremely large rulebook but it was my own fault for skimming over that bit. :)

T10
09-05-2011, 22:35
Well T10, there is already a rule allowing a model to choose what weapon it fights with. It's called Armed to Da Teef. Granted, only one unit has it, but there is precedence for it already. Maybe other units will get another similar rule, and thereby make Black Orcs even less useful.

I don't see how your example applies: The Armed to Da Teef special rule grants the model access to /more/ weapons options; it doesn't limit the use of their actual special weapon.

Also, I don't see how enemy units with access to the same rules would in any way diminish the usefulness of Black Orcs. Dwarf Slayers have a sinilar rule already: The Slayer Axes special rule. And even if we disregard those, there always the chance that your opponent will be field an O&G army that includes, wait for it: Black Orcs!

It's safe to say that the cat's out of the bag.

IrishDelinquent
10-05-2011, 04:19
Wow, go perception check fail (didn't read your comment very well, T10)

I thought you said that there wasn't a rule allowing a unit to forego (ie. choose) not to use their special weapon, which is why I mentioned AtdT. I didn't see that you were instead referencing a rule that would deny using a special weapon.

But still, AtdT/SA doe have validity in the discussion. Since these rules exist (especially new edition AtdT), there is at least some indication that a unit can only opt to not use a special weapon if granted that ability by a special rule. That's all I was trying to bring to the discussion.