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Jacktheripper34
08-05-2011, 21:15
So I've read a lot of what people have been posting so far but i remain slightly confused,

My question is if you took 49 warriors with spears and shields and a tomb prince then your skellies now have WS 5 S 3 attacks in horde formations, multiply this by two or three and I dont understand why people aren't seeing this as a viable option? can someone shed some light on this for me?

NecronBob
08-05-2011, 21:19
While I think that skeletons are a viable option with or without the prince, unstable dampens many people's expectations. The prince and the shield (I like shields better than spears, sorry) helps with this though.

However, keeping that prince alive will be the trick. I've also had a lot of trouble figuring out how to protect characters in the new book. One thing that the old book had going for it was three different ways to get a 4+ ward. As soon as your prince gets killed, you are back to WS 2 skeletons.

I'll also add that if you go over to the 8th ed. TK tactics thread, you can find pages of arguments over skeletons.

Kalandros
08-05-2011, 21:33
Swift Reform him to 2nd rank. :D

Esco Thomson
08-05-2011, 21:49
Swift Reform him to 2nd rank. :D

Or just deploy 3 wide, and reform on your turn, take your pick of naughty trick.

:D

antihelten
09-05-2011, 06:55
Or just put him on the corner of the unit if you have deployed in horde formation.

that way he'll have 1 enemy model in base contact at most, unless your fighting another horde, and even khorne warriors with halberds only have about 5% chance of killing him in a single round if they only have 1 model in base contact

Spiney Norman
09-05-2011, 07:34
I'm not going down this route, Tomb Guard are a much better recipient of the prince/King's Ld than skeleton warriors. Str 3 attacks rarely make much of a difference even in horde formation in my experience and the higher WS wont really change that much. If you can buff them with Killing blow then it would be a different story, but again a unit of TG with the same spell buff would wreak absolute havoc.

Skeletons are very good anvils, if you want damage output then get some TG or constructs.

antihelten
09-05-2011, 08:20
just saw the new faq, and as far as I can tell it's no longer possible to get a character into the second rank unless there is no room in the front rank, which would mean keeping the unit 3 wide for the entire game

Sicarius the 2nd
09-05-2011, 09:00
Do not underestimate the power of Skeleton Warriors, after using the new rules twice, i have found them the best thing in my army, yeah on their own there average but teamed up with a tomb prince, Necrotect and getting lucky with a few spells etc. I was playing against WOC, a chunky unit of 10 Chaos Knights charged into my horde of 48 Skellies with a Tomb Prince and Necrotect. Yeah 12 of my skellies were killed but my remaining 37 attacks were hitting on 3's with hatred (2misses) then oh i was able to get killing blow on skellies my magic phase before, boom, knights all dead in ONE round of combat, without my prince even having chance to attack! Yes it worked this time, but wow i was amazed, oh and the turn after they were back to full strentgh! LOVE the new TK!

Andy

jtrowell
09-05-2011, 09:12
Adding a prince to boost your S3 attacks is good against elves and human armies, but not so great against armored or high T foes. However, having a high CC also means that you will be hit on 4+ at best, or 5 by slaves or goblins (CC2 versus 5/6) or by units missing the fear test.

This make the unit unlikely to lost a round by many points, and so reduce the effect of the unstable rule. This make your skeleton horde a much better anvil, giving more time to your hammer units (chariots, knights, tomb guard with halberds, Ushabtis ...) to strike.

And even princes have T5 and 3W, so they are not easy to kill. Some elite units can focus enough attacks to kill him, but this might reduce their effective CR and make them lose the round versus your horde unit. So they might damage or kill your prince, but lose their elite unit by doing it.

EDMM
09-05-2011, 09:22
Swift Reform him to 2nd rank. :D

New FAQ says that would be cheating! Finally!

Gonzoyola
09-05-2011, 09:22
All I have to say to naysayers of Spear Skeletons, is Cursed Blades.



That skeleton unit will be puncturing armoured troops much more effectively than any other unit, and Killing Blow will help to pad CR as much as Parry Saves do. The difference is, Odds are those skeletons are going to get depleted eventually, and I will want them to have softened up their target as much as possible by the time that happens.

Spiney Norman
09-05-2011, 11:02
Do not underestimate the power of Skeleton Warriors, after using the new rules twice, i have found them the best thing in my army, yeah on their own there average but teamed up with a tomb prince, Necrotect and getting lucky with a few spells etc. I was playing against WOC, a chunky unit of 10 Chaos Knights charged into my horde of 48 Skellies with a Tomb Prince and Necrotect. Yeah 12 of my skellies were killed but my remaining 37 attacks were hitting on 3's with hatred (2misses) then oh i was able to get killing blow on skellies my magic phase before, boom, knights all dead in ONE round of combat, without my prince even having chance to attack! Yes it worked this time, but wow i was amazed, oh and the turn after they were back to full strentgh! LOVE the new TK!

Andy

What I'm saying is that Tomb Guard would have done a better job without the need for 2 characters and a magic spell to make them even slightly competant in combat. You cannot rely on spells geting off to buff your units into usefulness in my opinion. Skeletons are good at what they do, but trying to buff them from every direction to make them something else, is pretty ineffecient and makes you suffer from all eggs in one basket syndrome, and skeleton warriors make a very fragile basket.


All I have to say to naysayers of Spear Skeletons, is Cursed Blades.



That skeleton unit will be puncturing armoured troops much more effectively than any other unit, and Killing Blow will help to pad CR as much as Parry Saves do. The difference is, Odds are those skeletons are going to get depleted eventually, and I will want them to have softened up their target as much as possible by the time that happens.

to which I say "DISPELED!" oh look, your skeleton warriors are lame again :(

sninsch
09-05-2011, 11:26
Do not underestimate the power of Skeleton Warriors, after using the new rules twice, i have found them the best thing in my army, yeah on their own there average but teamed up with a tomb prince, Necrotect and getting lucky with a few spells etc. I was playing against WOC, a chunky unit of 10 Chaos Knights charged into my horde of 48 Skellies with a Tomb Prince and Necrotect. Yeah 12 of my skellies were killed but my remaining 37 attacks were hitting on 3's with hatred (2misses) then oh i was able to get killing blow on skellies my magic phase before, boom, knights all dead in ONE round of combat, without my prince even having chance to attack! Yes it worked this time, but wow i was amazed, oh and the turn after they were back to full strentgh! LOVE the new TK!

Andy

with a tomb prince they hit on 4+ not 3+ against Chaos Knights. Adding 2 characters and a spell and very lucky dice rolling kills the Knights, not the skellies on their one. Take this into your calculation ;).

GreySeerZ
09-05-2011, 12:21
What I'm saying is that Tomb Guard would have done a better job without the need for 2 characters and a magic spell to make them even slightly competant in combat. You cannot rely on spells geting off to buff your units into usefulness in my opinion. Skeletons are good at what they do, but trying to buff them from every direction to make them something else, is pretty ineffecient and makes you suffer from all eggs in one basket syndrome, and skeleton warriors make a very fragile basket.



to which I say "DISPELED!" oh look, your skeleton warriors are lame again :(

I completely agree with both of these. What I think people fail to realize is that you cannot rely on magic for the win. Every scenario should be analyzed considering no magical bonuses. There have been games where I've rolled 2 power dice for 3 of the 5 turns (not lying). It should never, EVER, be something that you rely on. Add to that the fact that I consistantly play a friend running Khairos (+6 to dispel) and I'm lucky to get off one spell per phase. I would much rather get those dice off for 5+ KB on my tomb guard, good positioning with a movement spell, or extra attacks on one of my other hammers than KB on my spear skeletons.

Skeletons are an anvil. Plain and simple. With magic and full characters (which is also relatively expensive, and can easily be thinned by any heavy magic/shooting army) they perform better than average anvil units, but that is not something to put weight on, and that one game, when you really need it, that leg is going to break, and you'll be thinking, man, if I had only had that 5++ save I could have held them 3 turns instead of 2 and could have flanked them with my chariots and warsphinx...

Von Wibble
09-05-2011, 21:10
On magic, whilst it does nicely buff spearmen, it buffs tomb guard or other units even better. I also prefer not to assume I will pull off any spells, but if I do , I want them to really be useful to me. It seems enemy units at -1S / T, or yout army with a 5++ has a lot more use.

Just to analyse from a more mathematical standpoint, boosting skeleton spearmen to WS6 will give you (against WS3-4) an extra 7 hits, and prevent the enemy from causing about the same number of hits on you.

Those extra 7 hits are at S3. Even against elf units that's only 2 extra casualties on average. And with high and dark elf units rerolling to hits you don't even save that many skeletons in defense. You should still expect to lose combats even against mediocre infantry with this setup. Imo skeleton infantry is there to hold the enemy in place and nothing more.

Asymmetric
09-05-2011, 21:34
Skeleton spearmen also have to be taken in larger blocks than 50. Without a parry save you'll be below 40 man count in no time at all, defeating the entire point of going with spears.

There is only one effective use of spear skeletons I have encoutered.

You want to use Ram-whats-his-face the visionary, the special character necrotect.
You want to take maxinium advantage of his random "re-roll" armours saves.
You push as many points as possible into necropolis knights in special for 3+ re-rolls.
You need a bunker for the necrotect and fill the core.
Because of these restrictions, and because he also causes frenzy you take a gigantic (60 atleast) unit of skeletons with spears, and a tomb character.


50 attacks hitting on 3's with re-rolls can make an impression, for a core unit atleast. You also get a frenzied/hatred Tomb King/Prince (sword of bloodshed combo if ever I saw it)

The_Bureaucrat
09-05-2011, 21:47
On magic, whilst it does nicely buff spearmen, it buffs tomb guard or other units even better. I also prefer not to assume I will pull off any spells, but if I do , I want them to really be useful to me. It seems enemy units at -1S / T, or yout army with a 5++ has a lot more use.


A clever general can tie up one unit like TG with sub-optimal matches, magic, concentrated firepower and just avoiding the unit.

The advantage of killing blow is not that you get an extra couple of wounds against armored troops is that spear skellies will get 6-9 attacks against a game changing character like a BSB, general or mage.

EDMM
09-05-2011, 22:06
You also get a frenzied/hatred Tomb King/Prince (sword of bloodshed combo if ever I saw it)

Works BEST of all on a DoE King.

T10
09-05-2011, 22:20
New FAQ says that would be cheating! Finally!

I'm not sure that's a direct quote, but sure. The FAQ does adress the issue along those lines.

Sicarius the 2nd
10-05-2011, 09:40
I agree with all your points, magic should not be relied on, but hey in that one turn it did go right, and the dice gods were with me, it went well. Yeah you are going to have games where magic is a real b***h but thats why we have more than one unit in our army and dont rely one one thing, it was just one beefed one unit of skellies for one turn. There isnt just them in the army, but i still think skelleton warriors are ACE even without any add ons! M4 YEAH!
Andy

Spiney Norman
10-05-2011, 10:16
A clever general can tie up one unit like TG with sub-optimal matches, magic, concentrated firepower and just avoiding the unit.

The advantage of killing blow is not that you get an extra couple of wounds against armored troops is that spear skellies will get 6-9 attacks against a game changing character like a BSB, general or mage.

A clever TK general can get his Tomb Guard to where they need to be. Theory hammer works less well if you assume that one player is tactically much more skilled than his opponent.


Works BEST of all on a DoE King.

Is that a joke, or do you not know how the DoE works? The King substitutes his regular attacks for one automatic hit on each model in B2B, so no benefit from frenzy, and because there is no roll to hit no benefit from hatred either.

The sword of bloodshed is definitely the way to go in that situation...

GreySeerZ
10-05-2011, 12:19
A clever TK general can get his Tomb Guard to where they need to be. Theory hammer works less well if you assume that one player is tactically much more skilled than his opponent.

Agreed. I really think people are just hoping that by buffing their skeletons they will no longer have to think tactically. These are not chaos warriors, they will not be winning combats without a ridiculous amount of points invested in them (which will end up exceeding what could be spent on a much more reliable hammer). I don't know why people feel uncomfortable that we've been given a decent anvil and are afriad to use them as so. Every top tier army has cheap and effective anvils (zhombies/ghouls, plaguebearers, skaven slaves, tzeentch marauders, etc.) and now so do we.

I think its the KB spell that have got people so excited about skeletons, when honestly, 5+ KB on TG with a much better chance to not only hit but also wound is just a much better move. Either that or it is Tomb King elitism that is driving us to believe that every TK unit is an elite killing machine...

jtrowell
10-05-2011, 12:39
About DOE benefiting from frenzy, I remind that you can use the DOE with normal attacks too, you will still get +2S and HKB, just not the auto-hits, so having +1 attack from frenzy is still useful, especially if you are trying to maximise your attacks against a signle target (monster, ennemy general, ...)

About spear skellies, I killed an ennemy general and routed its unit (Bretonnian general still undamaged in a grail knights unit) in 2 rounds thanks to the killing blow spell.

GodlessM
10-05-2011, 12:41
So I've read a lot of what people have been posting so far but i remain slightly confused,

My question is if you took 49 warriors with spears and shields and a tomb prince then your skellies now have WS 5 S 3 attacks in horde formations, multiply this by two or three and I dont understand why people aren't seeing this as a viable option? can someone shed some light on this for me?

Because simply having a lot of attacks no matter what the weapon skill doesn't automatically make it a good choice; there's more to Warhammer than killing and funnily enough this unit still won't be doing much of that.

GreySeerZ
10-05-2011, 14:33
About spear skellies, I killed an ennemy general and routed its unit (Bretonnian general still undamaged in a grail knights unit) in 2 rounds thanks to the killing blow spell.

Right, so because it happened in one battle, it should be recommended to everyone...I would support spear skeletons a lot more if they CAME with KB. The fact that you have to cast a specific spell for them to become effective makes it a one-time (or maybe even several-time deal).

Now the counter-argument is that the number of power dice generated is unreliable, which is itself true, but also think about the situation. If I'm playing TK, and I know they have that spell, why would I not focus on dispelling it. I would much rather let through +1 attack or extra movement in most circumstances then allow the unit fighting my general to gain KB. Now there could have been other circumstances in the battle, or maybe he failed to dispel it.

Even if that was the case spears would give 2 extra attacks against the general (3 if your opponent isn't smart and put him in the middle of the unit. Now the advantage of spear skeletons becomes:

Assuming no support characters: 33.3% chance to hit, and a 16.6% chance to KB

5.5% chance per attack to get killing blow on his character (11%, assuming no ward saves)
3.7% chance per attack to get killing blow (7.4%, assuming 5+ ward save)

so basically 1/10 turns base spears will have a additional impact on killing characters if you get the KB spell off.

Assuming full support characters against (assuming 4+ to hit with King WS and necrotect hatred): 75% chance to hit, 16.6% chance to KB

12.45% chance per attack to get killing blow on his character (24.9%, assuming no ward saves)
8.22% chance per attack to get killing blow (16.44%, assuming 5+ ward save)

This improves from 1/10 turns to 1/5 turns on average that they will have any added benefit. Again this is assuming that you get the KB spell off.

Now, consider initiative and the likelihood of the generals elite unit killing your necrotect before your base skeletons strike. Also assume the enemy general will have a 4+ ward. Add to this the fact that your spear skeletons, at T3 with limited armor and no parry. You can see that this tactic quickly becomes a once every 4/5 battles tactic. This is completely ignoring the fact that the opponent has any tactical strategy other then letting you cast this spell and slamming his general's unit into your biggest anvil and that he hasn't faced you before and has no clue of your armies capabilities.

GreySeerZ
10-05-2011, 15:10
Just for fun lets consider full 8 attacks (general in corner):

With no characters and full 8 attacks: 33% chance to hit, 16.67% chance for KB

Spears (8 attacks):
44% chance to KB
29.04% chance to KB (with 5++ ward save)
1/3 turns

Regular (now 6 attacks):
33% chance to KB
21.8% chance to KB (with 5++ ward save)
1/3.5 turns

TG (6 attacks), 50% chance to hit, 16.67% chance for KB:
50% chance to KB
33% chance to KB (with 5++ ward save)
1/2.5 turns

TG (6 attacks with KB spell), 50% chance to hit, 33% chance for KB
99% chance to KB
65.34% chance to KB (with 5++ ward save)
>1 turns

As you can see, if their character has no ward save, you are almost guaranteed to kill it (statistically) with TG and the buff to KB.

Now with character support, 75% chance to hit (including re roll), 16.67% chance for KB:

Spears (8 attacks):
100% chance to KB
66% chance to KB (with 5++ ward save)
>1 turns

Regular (now 6 attacks):
75% chance to KB
49.5% chance to KB (with 5++ ward save)
1/1.5 turns

TG (6 attacks):
75% chance to KB
49.5% chance to KB (with 5++ ward save)
1/1.5 turns

TG (6 attacks with KB spell), 75% chance to hit, 33% chance for KB
148.5% chance to KB
98.01% chance to KB (with 5++ ward save)
<1 turns

Conclusions:

1. As you can see a unit of TG with no characters + spell is almost twice as good at getting of KB as a unit of spear skeletons with no characters + the spell. (This is ignoring the fact that they will be dealing many more regular wounds as well)

2. A unit of hw+s skeletons with characters and spell is just as good as a unit of TG with characters at killing heroes.

3. A unit of spear skeletons with necrotect and tomb prince/king has an almost 100% chance to kill a hero. This is assuming you get the KB spell, the opponent doesn't kill your necrotect and there is no ward save on the enemy hero. This is comparable to a unit of TG with the spell without characters.

4. TG with spell and necrotect is obviously the most lethal, almost guaranteeing a kill.



Now I know these are all statistics, but they do make things interesting.

In the end I believe it boils down to reliability. To make spear/regular skeletons viable character snipers you have to invest 300+unit pts, roll correctly for magic spells, roll well for winds of magic, play an opponent that doesn't know or isn't tactically sound who charges the unit and lets you get off the spell, not let your necrotect/prince get sniped, and hope that the opponent's general does not have a good ward save (most do).

With TG there is much less risk. The unit operates well on its own, and even has a higher chance to wound the character regardless of KB. All of this without characters, spells, winds of magic rolls, and additonal points outside the unit. Yes they cost more, but they probably cost less than 300+skeletons. Assuming the necrotect/prince in the spear unit gets sniped (which is what a smart opponent would attempt), this unit has lost a majority of it's effectiveness while the TG are almost just as effective as before.

oldWitheredCorpse
10-05-2011, 16:11
Just for fun lets consider full 8 attacks (general in corner):

With no characters and full 8 attacks: 33% chance to hit, 16.67% chance for KB

Spears (8 attacks):
44% chance to KB
29.04% chance to KB (with 5++ ward save)
1/3 turns

...



You're completely off base. Probabilities don't add up like that. What you need to do is to multiple the chance that something is not happening with the number of times it needs not to happen. Then take 1-P on that. So ten times 10% is (9/10)^10 or about 0.35. Then something (KB or whatever) happens at least once in 65% of the cases.

Von Wibble
10-05-2011, 18:33
A clever general can tie up one unit like TG with sub-optimal matches, magic, concentrated firepower and just avoiding the unit.

The advantage of killing blow is not that you get an extra couple of wounds against armored troops is that spear skellies will get 6-9 attacks against a game changing character like a BSB, general or mage.

Horde TG also get this many attacks - but their Kb would be on 5+ for the same game changing character. And 30 odd tomb guard are not so expensive as a unit that their being tied up is game affecting (chances are such a unit is held in reserve a little to help avoid such an occurence anyway).

oldwithered corpse - that is correct. Just to aid the maths analysis, lets compare 6 TG strikes with 12 horde spear strikes, assuming the spearmen were charged, and the TG are not in horde formation. All probabilities are to 2 d.p.

A single spearman attacking with KB buff and WS6 has a 1/9 chance to KB (assuming the foe has WS 5 or less - eg a wizard). Therefore the probability of getting at least 1 KB strike with 12 spear attacks is 1 - (8/9)^9. This gives a probability of 0.76

If the target has a 4+ ward the probability decreases to 0.50 (it doesn't half as some people might think)

If the target has WS6 and a 4+ ward it becomes 0.40.

Meanwhile, Tomb Guard attacking with a buffed killing blow and WS 6, against foes with below WS6, have a 2/9 chance of KB. 6 TG attacking would get a probability of 1 - (7/9)^6 of at least 1 KB. This works out at 0.78
If the enemy has a 4+ ward then the probability reduces to 0.51
If they have WS 6+ and a 4+ ward then the probability is 0.41

Conclusion - The Tomb Guard are a slightly better unit to cast the KB spell on than the skeleton spearmen under the best possible circumstances for the spearmen. The fact that all of these probabilities are quite high means opposing characters should beware the KB spell also!

I will leave analysing the effect of necrotects on these probabilities to someone else - I doubt they will severely change the result!

GreySeerZ
10-05-2011, 18:47
You're completely off base. Probabilities don't add up like that. What you need to do is to multiple the chance that something is not happening with the number of times it needs not to happen. Then take 1-P on that. So ten times 10% is (9/10)^10 or about 0.35. Then something (KB or whatever) happens at least once in 65% of the cases.

Ah, ok, I figured with 8 spearmen you would have 8x the chance and that I could simply multiply this by the percent chance of a single KB. (For example, hit 33% x KB 16.67% x Attacks 8) = 44% to get 1 KB, but I guess I am wrong. It's been about 5 years since i took statistics in college, haha. Sorry about wasting everyones time.

The_Bureaucrat
10-05-2011, 19:27
A clever TK general can get his Tomb Guard to where they need to be. Theory hammer works less well if you assume that one player is tactically much more skilled than his opponent....

In even an equal skill setting, the general, bsb or mage with the greater mobility is going to avoid unfavorable combats.

The point I was trying to make is that the greatest of cursed blades is not the extra kills or making the TG deathstar better but being able to give killing blow to the unit that can benefit the most from it ( the unit thats in combat with the general bsb etc). Wherein spear skellies help by adding 50% more attacks to said targeting of the character. Is this a huge advantage? No its not but aside from taking the frenzy character its the only useful consideration to support spear skellies (although i still don't think it justifies taking spear skellies over hw+s).


Horde TG also get this many attacks - but their Kb would be on 5+ for the same game changing character. And 30 odd tomb guard are not so expensive as a unit that their being tied up is game affecting (chances are such a unit is held in reserve a little to help avoid such an occurence anyway).

Obviously TG are better at killing blow with the spell than spear skellies they cost over double. That was not the point. The point is vs hw+s shield skellies you can allocate more attacks to a character.

EDMM
10-05-2011, 20:35
Is that a joke, or do you not know how the DoE works? The King substitutes his regular attacks for one automatic hit on each model in B2B, so no benefit from frenzy, and because there is no roll to hit no benefit from hatred either.

The sword of bloodshed is definitely the way to go in that situation...

You don't have to use the special automatic hit attack...

So a King with DoE and Hatred and Frenzy is mulching stuff like there's no tomorrow. Throw him against some Monsters Monstrous Infantry and go to town.

Von Wibble
12-05-2011, 16:11
In even an equal skill setting, the general, bsb or mage with the greater mobility is going to avoid unfavorable combats.

The point I was trying to make is that the greatest of cursed blades is not the extra kills or making the TG deathstar better but being able to give killing blow to the unit that can benefit the most from it ( the unit thats in combat with the general bsb etc). Wherein spear skellies help by adding 50% more attacks to said targeting of the character. Is this a huge advantage? No its not but aside from taking the frenzy character its the only useful consideration to support spear skellies (although i still don't think it justifies taking spear skellies over hw+s).



Obviously TG are better at killing blow with the spell than spear skellies they cost over double. That was not the point. The point is vs hw+s shield skellies you can allocate more attacks to a character.

But you shouldn't expect to kill said character with the skeletons and should put your spells where they are really needed anyway. It's a moot point. And the hw/shield skeleton does it's job, namely that of anvil, far better than the spear skeleton.

Besides which point, it isn't that obvious as the horde spearmen have double the attacks of the tomb guard. Some people may think that double the attacks is just as good as KB on 5+ compared to 6+, which would be a reasonable assumption if you don't work out the probabilities.

As to the point you actually make, this only applies when the spear skellies don't charge, and its only 3 extra attacks onto a character. Not a huge increase in efficiency of KB spell given that you lose a ward save for it - I think, as I originally said, I'll be saving the KB spell for my better units instead.

GreySeerZ
12-05-2011, 17:55
Besides which point, it isn't that obvious as the horde spearmen have double the attacks of the tomb guard. Some people may think that double the attacks is just as good as KB on 5+ compared to 6+, which would be a reasonable assumption if you don't work out the probabilities.

Wouldn't the spearmen just have +10 attacks (horde TG = 30, horde Spearmen = 40)? Atleast I would assume we were comparing horde to horde.

Von Wibble
12-05-2011, 20:57
My numbers are based on the tomb guard not being in horde - that way even a cheaper unit of tomb guard still has those high odds. I chose to do this to give spearmen the best case scenario possible, so as to demonstrate without a doubt that Kb spell is better on tomb guard than spear skellies.

The_Bureaucrat
12-05-2011, 21:04
But you shouldn't expect to kill said character with the skeletons and should put your spells where they are really needed anyway. It's a moot point. And the hw/shield skeleton does it's job, namely that of anvil, far better than the spear skeleton. .

If my tomg gaurd is chopping up a characterless unit and my skeletons are in a combat with a general than to me it's worth the risk (especially for low leadership armies) to give the skeletons a shot to kill the general, wherein spears help increase that probability. Obviously if given a choice between using it on TG and Skeletons to kill the same character TG are the superior choice.

Does this mean that spears are worth the extra points? No probably not but it does give them some tactical consideration.

Von Wibble
12-05-2011, 21:15
I think we are in agreement that under those circumstances it is better. That is simply common sense. But when selecting an army I still would prefer an extra 40 odd points and a ward save on my units to a handful of extra attacks - and the possibilty of a spell giving me one slightly improved option (it really is only slight) just isn't enough to change my mind.

Lets also remember that spells are cast in your own turn - chances are the enemy unit that has charged your horde spearmen will have reduced their ranks quite severely by then, lessening the effects even more. But this again omes down to me only being able to generalise what happens in an ideal scenario. No plan completely survives contact with the enemy.

Maybe if spears were free instead of 1 point.

GreySeerZ
13-05-2011, 01:15
Lets also remember that spells are cast in your own turn - chances are the enemy unit that has charged your horde spearmen will have reduced their ranks quite severely by then, lessening the effects even more. But this again omes down to me only being able to generalise what happens in an ideal scenario. No plan completely survives contact with the enemy.

I didn't even think about that, but its a good point. Cause lets be honest, on that first turn your are losing 10+ models unless your getting charged with skaven slaves, which is great, now the rest of your army can kill something important! To guarantee your striking back with full strength a unit of 50 is probably required.

The_Bureaucrat
13-05-2011, 06:09
I didn't even think about that, but its a good point. Cause lets be honest, on that first turn your are losing 10+ models unless your getting charged with skaven slaves, which is great, now the rest of your army can kill something important! To guarantee your striking back with full strength a unit of 50 is probably required.

40 should be ok. If its a fight that wont be close should get out of horde to minimize casualties. I did forget about the fact that if its your magic phase you probably charged. At least kb works on oppenents turn too.

Spiney Norman
13-05-2011, 11:10
You don't have to use the special automatic hit attack...

So a King with DoE and Hatred and Frenzy is mulching stuff like there's no tomorrow. Throw him against some Monsters Monstrous Infantry and go to town.

No offense, but if you're going to do that you may as well just give him a regular great weapon. Would you really pay 80pts just for heroic killing blow???

Also the more attacks you have the more benefit you get from the rerolls, I'd say the sword of bloodshed was the way to go, str 5 is enough for most things anyway.

Ravening Wh0re
18-05-2011, 00:39
No offense, but if you're going to do that you may as well just give him a regular great weapon. Would you really pay 80pts just for heroic killing blow???

Also the more attacks you have the more benefit you get from the rerolls, I'd say the sword of bloodshed was the way to go, str 5 is enough for most things anyway.

HKB is pretty rare and can potentially kill ANYTHING in the game. It's 80pts to be able to kill dragons, ogres, abominations etc in one hit and cancelling regen in the process.
It also allows you to swing at initiative which is faster than most monsters, in addition to +2S.

So yes, it is expensive, almost prohibitively so, but is a serious deterrant to any tooled up lord or scary monster considering charging into the Tomb King's unit

Sectux
18-05-2011, 00:59
I am going for a king with the DoE, enchanted shield and potion of speed (for anything a bit faster that I have to kill) and a herald with the blade of Ahnk. That means that I have a healing bodyguard that can get regen, and a killing lord against anything. And a necrotect for hatred. The only time I plan to use the DoE ability is if I get charged from two sides, and can maximise the hits.

GodlessM
18-05-2011, 01:06
And still not worth 80pts; Brets pay 40pts for it.

Ravening Wh0re
18-05-2011, 01:15
And still not worth 80pts; Brets pay 40pts for it.

Ah, but will they in the future?
Also very different people wielding that ability. A natural high Strength and Toughness helps as does the not inconsiderable ability to boost the HKB to a 5+

GodlessM
18-05-2011, 10:58
It certainly won't cost them 80pts or anywhere close. Furthermore, I don't think sending the general hunting monsters is a very good way to use such an importnat character in TK.

jtrowell
18-05-2011, 11:34
For reference about my battle where I killed the general with spear skellies, just some more informations :

- my tomb guards at the time had been reduced to a few thanks to a direct trebuchet hit and some shooting

- the skeletons had been sent first to block the grail knights in place, and try to win with SCR (at the time, there were still more than 30 skeletons versus the general and a few surviving grail knights, at best a +1 rank bonus for them).

- there was a prince in the unit, meaning than even the knight needed 4+ to hit and not 3+

- I had charged the first turn after they had reformed, to prevent them the full benefit of the lance and their weapon (no spear bonus rank, but the KB happened the following round)

- I was not trying for the KB especially, just to switch the combat in my favor and make them flee (losing the lady's blessing by doing so, and with a good chance of leaving the table, as well as losing their banner). I also had the 5++ spell that could give me more chance. I only hoped to gain 1, maybe 2 CR with one or the other spells, wich would probably have been enough to win the round and/or increase the chance of routing them.

I fully expected him to dispel the KB and not have enough DD for my other spells, and only put on the spell what was needed to cast it, but I got a good result and the dispel failed. (I usually don't often cast with 6 dice, I prefer to have several good spells ready and force my opponent to make dispelling eitheir a hard choice).

I other worlds, I planned for the best while being prepared for the worst and still expecting to have the advantage in the long term.

GreySeerZ
18-05-2011, 12:01
For reference about my battle where I killed the general with spear skellies, just some more informations :

- my tomb guards at the time had been reduced to a few thanks to a direct trebuchet hit and some shooting

- the skeletons had been sent first to block the grail knights in place, and try to win with SCR (at the time, there were still more than 30 skeletons versus the general and a few surviving grail knights, at best a +1 rank bonus for them).

- there was a prince in the unit, meaning than even the knight needed 4+ to hit and not 3+

- I had charged the first turn after they had reformed, to prevent them the full benefit of the lance and their weapon (no spear bonus rank, but the KB happened the following round)

- I was not trying for the KB especially, just to switch the combat in my favor and make them flee (losing the lady's blessing by doing so, and with a good chance of leaving the table, as well as losing their banner). I also had the 5++ spell that could give me more chance. I only hoped to gain 1, maybe 2 CR with one or the other spells, wich would probably have been enough to win the round and/or increase the chance of routing them.

I fully expected him to dispel the KB and not have enough DD for my other spells, and only put on the spell what was needed to cast it, but I got a good result and the dispel failed. (I usually don't often cast with 6 dice, I prefer to have several good spells ready and force my opponent to make dispelling eitheir a hard choice).

I other worlds, I planned for the best while being prepared for the worst and still expecting to have the advantage in the long term.

Good for you! I mean spear skeletons definitely have their place. Now if you hadn't gotten your spells off, it could have gone differently. In this case sword and shield skellies would have worked just as well considering the fact you charged him. I think both units are good at what they do, hold units and with spells, drag down characters. I really think it will come down to player's personal preference. I know in the end I will most likely have a unit of spear skellies and a unit of HW+S skellies, and alternate them every once in a while.

Pulstar
18-05-2011, 16:13
I also see the value in spear skittles, and I love the way they look. Losing the 6+ ward save isn't the reason why I'm planing on using Hw/Shield on my 40 skeleton block.

It's the 40 points.

I just don't see the few extra attacks worth that many points. If spears were free I would have done my block that way. So much other cool stuff to buy with it.

The_Bureaucrat
18-05-2011, 17:29
It certainly won't cost them 80pts or anywhere close. Furthermore, I don't think sending the general hunting monsters is a very good way to use such an importnat character in TK.

Actually it costs them 80 points right now to get +2 str magical weapon and killing blow.

Ravening Wh0re
18-05-2011, 20:54
It certainly won't cost them 80pts or anywhere close. Furthermore, I don't think sending the general hunting monsters is a very good way to use such an importnat character in TK.

What do you expect a Tomb King to do? Sit back and bolster your lines? The army doesnt panic, is essentially unbreakable.
He also hits as hard as a Chaos or Orc leader.

This is Warhammer World. Monster are everywhere. Sooner or later you'll end up in combat with a big gribbly and it's nice to have the tools to handle one.

decker_cky
19-05-2011, 20:38
If you ignore the special attack, you only pay 40 pts for HKB on the DOE, same as brets pay. Pretty decent IMO. Brets can combine it with +A stuff or reroll to hit stuff, so that's an advantage to brets, but TK have a semi-useful special ability on it, and have magic that can boost the HKB to 5+. Both are expensive, but they're also both quite useful.

GodlessM
20-05-2011, 01:20
Actually it costs them 80 points right now to get +2 str magical weapon and killing blow.

We're not talking about +2S, nor are we talking about the item being placed in any situation; I'd suggest going back over the topic a bit as it is a bit involved.


Sooner or later you'll end up in combat with a big gribbly and it's nice to have the tools to handle one.

Taking an 80pt item because 'sooner or later' you'll face a monster is bad list building plain and simple. And even with planning, it's not going to be the case all the time of just strolling up and charging the monster; you will usually have to go after it, often going out to the flanks where monsters are often deployed, which is not a desirable position for a Tomb King.


If you ignore the special attack, you only pay 40 pts for HKB on the DOE, same as brets pay.

How'd you figure? You can get the +2S from a GW for 6pts, so you are paying 74pts for the HKB, though even at that, against most army's core S7 is no better than S5, in which case you pay the full 80pts. And even if you are to compare to a Bret. Lord with Virtue of Heroism and Ogre Blade, he still has a 2+/6(5)++ save, whereas you TK will have either a mediocre armour with no ward/regen. or a poor armour and poor ward/regen., with the main point being that the death of the Tomb King is a bigger blow than the death of a Bret. Lord.

WarhammerNoob4ever
20-05-2011, 07:40
We're not talking about +2S, nor are we talking about the item being placed in any situation; I'd suggest going back over the topic a bit as it is a bit involved.



Taking an 80pt item because 'sooner or later' you'll face a monster is bad list building plain and simple. And even with planning, it's not going to be the case all the time of just strolling up and charging the monster; you will usually have to go after it, often going out to the flanks where monsters are often deployed, which is not a desirable position for a Tomb King.



How'd you figure? You can get the +2S from a GW for 6pts, so you are paying 74pts for the HKB, though even at that, against most army's core S7 is no better than S5, in which case you pay the full 80pts. And even if you are to compare to a Bret. Lord with Virtue of Heroism and Ogre Blade, he still has a 2+/6(5)++ save, whereas you TK will have either a mediocre armour with no ward/regen. or a poor armour and poor ward/regen., with the main point being that the death of the Tomb King is a bigger blow than the death of a Bret. Lord.

I think what he was saying is that you cant just say the HKB is 80 pts bc the weapon ur buying also comes with:
+2 str
only uses 1 hand, so can be combined with shield
and a special rule

whether those things it comes with are worth it as a whole is debatable but that doesnt mean you can just dismiss them

you cant say STR 5 and STR 7 dont matter against basic troops bc if ur sending a STR 7 HKB model into T3, 5+ saves, ur not really using the weapon you bought in the right way. So in that case it is a waste of points. But against a T5, 4+AS hydra, the STR 7 makes a big deal (wounding on 2+ and no AS with chance to bypass regen vs wounding on 4+ and 6+ AS and full regen)

you cant just say ur paying 80 pts for HKB, bc your not paying for just the HKB, unlike the bret who buys the virtue and gets only HKB

none of my argument is to say that the DoE is worth the points or better or worse than the HKB virtue in the Bret book, just to say, they are different and not really in direct comparison to each other

Trains_Get_Robbed
20-05-2011, 07:56
We're not talking about +2S, nor are we talking about the item being placed in any situation; I'd suggest going back over the topic a bit as it is a bit involved.



Taking an 80pt item because 'sooner or later' you'll face a monster is bad list building plain and simple. And even with planning, it's not going to be the case all the time of just strolling up and charging the monster; you will usually have to go after it, often going out to the flanks where monsters are often deployed, which is not a desirable position for a Tomb King.



How'd you figure? You can get the +2S from a GW for 6pts, so you are paying 74pts for the HKB, though even at that, against most army's core S7 is no better than S5, in which case you pay the full 80pts. And even if you are to compare to a Bret. Lord with Virtue of Heroism and Ogre Blade, he still has a 2+/6(5)++ save, whereas you TK will have either a mediocre armour with no ward/regen. or a poor armour and poor ward/regen., with the main point being that the death of the Tomb King is a bigger blow than the death of a Bret. Lord.

Way to whine your way into a ill-logical comparsions between two different charcters in different armies that fullfill different roles. :rolleyes:.

Really, Godless are you also going to complain about other things as well? After being such an avid defender of the new T.K book? Very unlike you, almost hypocritical in nature. :shifty:

GodlessM
20-05-2011, 11:51
Way to whine your way into a ill-logical comparsions between two different charcters in different armies that fullfill different roles. :rolleyes:.

Really, Godless are you also going to complain about other things as well? After being such an avid defender of the new T.K book? Very unlike you, almost hypocritical in nature. :shifty:

Oh wow, sorry mate but this is idiotic. So by saying a single item in the book is badly costed I am a whiner and a hypocrite for saying the overall book in general is good?

Furthermore you clearly can't read. Firstly, I didn't bring up the Bret. Lord comparison in the first place, it was already on the table when I joined the fray. Secondly, I am the one that advocated that the roles of the TK and BL were completely different and that trying to mimick that role with the TK was a bad idea.

I'm think I'm going to have to click that ignore button if you keep posting such :wtf: posts as this.


none of my argument is to say that the DoE is worth the points or better or worse than the HKB virtue in the Bret book, just to say, they are different and not really in direct comparison to each other

Pretty much, but that comparison was already on the table when I showed up, so I just went with it.

GreySeerZ
20-05-2011, 13:03
Personally I'm taking my tomb king naked...:evilgrin: