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AmundoClown
09-05-2011, 08:54
Sadly, my 8th edition rulebook has not arrived, and even in 7th edition I was unable to find an answer to this question:

How much information are you required to reveal about your army when the game starts?

The reason that I'm asking is the fact that some magic items allow the wielding player to scry upon enemy troops, revealing information that was withheld. Of course, goblin fanatics and assassins are not to be revealed at game start, but how about magic items?

Knowing which character (or which unit) has which magic items would often influence your tactical choices, so this does indeed matter.

Does the 8th edition rulebook specify what information you need to disclose, and what you may withhold?

Guessing is a risky sport, but I guess that at least you'd have to be clear on the number of models in a unit, and their equipment. Who can show me the rules on this?

AmundoClown
13-05-2011, 19:47
Hmmm... perhaps nobody knows this.

Ferrous82
13-05-2011, 20:36
I wasn't able to find anything in the rulebook that covers it. I know there have been topics on this before. If I recall, most people just come to an agreement before the game start. I'm usually forthcoming with what my army consists of, save for assassins and magical items.

TMATK
13-05-2011, 20:43
It's up to you and your opponent. I always play that magic items, gifts, fanatics and assasins are secret. Things that should be wysiwyg are declared, such as weapon load out on a unit, and chaos marks.

From the FAQ:

Q: Do I have to show my opponent my army roster at the start of
a battle, or can I wait until the end of the game, which means I only
need to reveal things like which magic items my characters have
taken when I first use them? (p132)
A: If you think this may be an issue, discuss it with your
opponent before the game starts. Some players prefer full
disclosure at the start of the battle, while others prefer to wait
until the battle has finished before revealing their roster. It is
for you and your opponent to decide which method you prefer
to use.

wilsongrahams
14-05-2011, 06:28
The rulebook actually states the same as the FAQ and mentions that tournaments have open lists etc, but really it's optional.

Personally, I'd have models armed correcty etc, but when it comes to characters just say, this is a magic weapon, that shield isn't a standard shield but is included as part of his magic armour so gives no extra bonus etc, just so an opponent can tell there will be some surprises but not know exactly what I have.

If challenged I will show my army list at any time to show something is there but I play with trusted players and I've not had to do that before. Usually I refer to my army list myself so I know what I have as I make a new list every game.

If you can't agree to use open or closed lists, then ask if your opponent is happy with a roll off. Either way, always ensure you have a printed (or written) copy of your army list that can be checked at the end of battle should you need to. Never just say it's in your head as you always have the same list. Doing that will make it seem funny where those rerolls and ward saves keep coming from!

T10
14-05-2011, 08:52
It seems to be a matter of whatever convention your gaming group adapts.

Elements that are described as "hidden" or "secret" in their rules, certainly. These things should be noted in the army list as appropriate.

Stuff that relies on random factors should probably be revealed when the appropriate rolls are made, e.g. spell, or randomly determined abilities like that of Centigors. It helps to have an observer to the rolls to remove any doubt as to wether the results were indeed generated randomly as opposed to selected.

Stuff you can select from at the start of the battle (such as the main target for the Sword of Fate) should at least be noted down so you can present later evidence that the decision was made at the right moment and didn't just select it on the spur of the moment when it was most opportunate ("Yeah, I picked your level 1 Wizard, the one who's turned himself into a dragon... Lucky!")

AmundoClown
15-05-2011, 01:42
Wow, what a nice mix of good contributions, I thought nobody knew, and all of a sudden a lot of good answers.

Bodysnatcher
15-05-2011, 17:47
I think you should also state if certain units have to take particular tests every turn at the start of the game. For example a warriors of chaos army that includes a Lord with the helm of many eyes should say 'My Lord is subject to stupidity' rather than 'forgetting' about it until it comes to be useful.

DarkAngelsG
15-05-2011, 18:31
We just play it like the old 7th edition way. All magic items are kept secret, unless you wish to disclose them, but they have to be put on the army list. Everything else is thrown out in the open.

Star.Scream
15-05-2011, 19:15
>>>I looks like a good general consensus has been reached. I would like to mention one more thing- regarding spells.

p.490 of the rulebook states that when you generate spells it is supposed to be "done openly, so both you and your opponent will be aware of the spells each wizard has generated."

For myself and my gaming group this little change was noteworthy, because prior, whether we did it legally or not, we would generally not reveal spells (perhaps out of ignorance, as opposed to intentional sneakiness).

sorberec
15-05-2011, 20:48
>>>I looks like a good general consensus has been reached. I would like to mention one more thing- regarding spells.

p.490 of the rulebook states that when you generate spells it is supposed to be "done openly, so both you and your opponent will be aware of the spells each wizard has generated."

For myself and my gaming group this little change was noteworthy, because prior, whether we did it legally or not, we would generally not reveal spells (perhaps out of ignorance, as opposed to intentional sneakiness).

Rolling spells openly was the rule in 7th as well (didn't play in 6th but I assume it was the same then)

Bodysnatcher
15-05-2011, 20:53
5th was the last edition with secret spells as they were dealt from a deck of cards.

AmundoClown
18-05-2011, 00:45
>>>I looks like a good general consensus has been reached. I would like to mention one more thing- regarding spells.

p.490 of the rulebook states that when you generate spells it is supposed to be "done openly, so both you and your opponent will be aware of the spells each wizard has generated."

For myself and my gaming group this little change was noteworthy, because prior, whether we did it legally or not, we would generally not reveal spells (perhaps out of ignorance, as opposed to intentional sneakiness).


If you don't reveal spells, how will you ever make sure that they're chosen randomly?

Ah... now I get it... cards. Yeah, I can read, I just forget to do so every now and then.

Ferrous82
20-05-2011, 17:27
Its definitely important that your list is on paper before the game starts. What seems confusing to me is if you do adopt a full disclosure agreement before each game, and you happen to take things like Assassins, does the only surprise come from which unit its hidden in (which should also be written down somewhere, right?). Seems like just the knowledge that your opponent has an assassin somewhere in his army would drastically change your play-style. Further, wouldn't it seem odd to share the assassin's equipment as well?

T'Green T'Bad T'Ugly
20-05-2011, 20:40
I have limited experience in competative games, but, would think that as long as your army is WYSIWYG and there are hard copies available for judges and for your opponent to see after the game then there is no need to reveal anything you don't want to.
Its probably just good form to reveal most things, especially if asked. But, in competative situations, I wouldn't reveal stuff like magic items/fanatics etc.. even if asked.
Knowing/not knowing about some items can have tactical significance.

In friendly games (which 95% of my games are) I generally have my full list available and my opponent can see it anytime they like.

eron12
20-05-2011, 22:59
I don't have a lot of experience with 8th, but I was of the opinion that disclosing mundane equipment was the way to do. So if one character has a great weapon, the second a magic sword and regular shield, and the third has just a hand weapon, I would describe the characters at deployment as being armed with a great weapon, hand weapon, and hand weapon.