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mildaevilda
09-05-2011, 11:39
Hello,
I encountered unusual situation during "Charge!" that I'm not sure how should be solved. I managed to touch the enemy unit thanks to nearby building but I could get only one model to be in contact after free wheel to close the gap (see the attached picture - enemy is red rectangle, charging unit is blue rectangle).

Is such charge possible? Can enemy regroup by any means to get more models into contact?

Yrrdead
09-05-2011, 11:44
Yes the charge is possible.
Combat Reform.(pg55)

mildaevilda
09-05-2011, 12:27
Yrrdead: Thanks a lot. I assume that by reform enemy can only make front row of his unit wider. So next turn may combat looks like attached picture below. Am I right?

Edit: I didn't make picture well enough, center of red unit should not move after combat reform.

Tambarskjelve
09-05-2011, 12:50
That would probably put the charged unit at a disadvantage though, so why would they do that?
How is the rules about clipping in 8th? No more sliding the charged unit into position?

Would they just remain clipped until the combat is resolved?

Yrrdead
09-05-2011, 12:51
Not quite a combat reform is a bit different. In this case , essentially he would move laterally. I'll try a quick text pic.

before:

____abcde
xxxxx

after:

bcdea
xxxxx

Pages to take a look at; pg 14, pg 55 and the rulebook FAQ covering combat reforms(its on the 2nd page of the faq)

Edit:
@Tambarskjelve
Yes they would remain clipped for at least 1 rd of close combat is resolved.

theunwantedbeing
09-05-2011, 12:53
That would probably put the charged unit at a disadvantage though, so why would they do that?
How is the rules about clipping in 8th? No more sliding the charged unit into position?

Would they just remain clipped until the combat is resolved?

The combat reform lets you "slide" across to base contact (if you want and can pass the required test).

mildaevilda
09-05-2011, 13:02
Not quite a combat reform is a bit different. In this case , essentially he would move laterally. I'll try a quick text pic.

before:

____abcde
xxxxx

after:

bcdea
xxxxx

Pages to take a look at; pg 14, pg 55 and the rulebook FAQ covering combat reforms(its on the 2nd page of the faq)

Edit:
@Tambarskjelve
Yes they would remain clipped for at least 1 rd of close combat is resolved.

I like your way to solve it, but reform (pg 14) doesn't allow to move the center of the unit. I could not find anything that make combat reform exception. There is only sentence talking about "increasing unit frontage" (not shifting unit sideways) on the pg 55.

Yrrdead
09-05-2011, 13:03
The rulebook FAQ I mentioned.

mildaevilda
09-05-2011, 13:19
The rulebook FAQ I mentioned.

I'm ashamed to admit that I'm not able to read (It had to be selective blindness or some sharp-ears hex that prevented me to see this FAQ entry). Thanks for clarification.

Kalandros
09-05-2011, 15:23
First round of combat would be only a few models vs a few models. Then from any combat reforms if it gets to last more rounds - you can bring more models in contact (effectively 'sliding').

Tambarskjelve
09-05-2011, 16:27
But do you have to do this? Could the charged unit chose to remain clipped for the rest of combat?

Yrrdead
09-05-2011, 19:53
But do you have to do this? Could the charged unit chose to remain clipped for the rest of combat?

Oh, yeah they can remain "clipped". You aren't "forced" to combat reform.

Tambarskjelve
09-05-2011, 20:47
I better plant my skaven clanrat or dark elf spearmen partly behind a building or rock then :P

Mr_Rose
10-05-2011, 11:51
That would probably put the charged unit at a disadvantage though, so why would they do that?
How is the rules about clipping in 8th? No more sliding the charged unit into position?

Would they just remain clipped until the combat is resolved?
I'd just like to point out , for the purposes of historical accuracy, that the 7e RAW was basically "live with the clip" and that 'sliding' was not ever in the actual rulebook. It was, however, suggested as a common alternative that could be used by mutual agreement in one of the FAQs for 7e. The appendix that suggested this even went so far as to state "This is not technically allowed by the letter of the rules, ..."

Yet, somehow, almost every player seemed to think that this was not only permitted but mandatory. I guess those guys were just luckily that the BRB wasn't quite so "B" back then...

AmundoClown
11-05-2011, 10:05
Not very familiar with these rules, yet fascinated by this discovery, I'd like to make a comment.

It seems that charging a unit behind a building could be less tempting, especially if you have a unit of capable killers and your opponent has a lot of ranks and other bonuses. Your ability to score battle points would stay low, and your opponent would strategically (and perhaps cowardly?) choose to stay "clipped" and get his points anyway.

The response to such rules would, I guess, be to avoid charging altogether, so that you don't wind up in such a situation. Maybe this makes sense in a way. Buildings and other barriers do represent a strategic factor, and would help units stay less engaged than in an open field.

Theoretically, charging a unit through a narrow "corridor" would involve the same problem. If the corridor did not end before you would engage the target, you would end up fighting in a single file of models (a hopeless scenario indeed, with only the model in front fighting). Similarly to the previous "clipping" situation, such a charge would be unwise at best, lest you're using Ogres (massive Bull Charge) or otherwise convincing models (capable of more attacks per model, fear, etc).

This goes to show that units hiding behind obstacles do get significant advantages, even if they get "caught".

T10
11-05-2011, 10:37
This "awkward" situation is primarilly caused by the rules that dictate what side of the target unit you must charge. The "magnetic front" works fine for units out in the open, but they are somewhat counter-intuitive when it comes to terrain/units blocking the legal side while the illegal side is wide open...

Mid'ean
11-05-2011, 11:15
True, but only if the charger really must have that charge at that moment. Or...they can take a extra turn to manoeuvre to be able to charge into the flank of the unit next turn.

mildaevilda
11-05-2011, 11:19
Mid'ean: Yes, yes, frenzy could be really disadvantage in this situation.

Citadel97501
12-05-2011, 05:12
Our group just does a slide, to put as many people in combat as possible after we "Close the Door", with the charging unit moving first if it can't due to a situation like your example we have the charged unit crab-walk over instead.

This is rarely done, and frankly usually better for my opponents because if we don't I will use the "make way" rule and then issue a challenge preventing my opponent from a fair fight. For some reason people stopped complaining when we slid over. This "teachable moment" trick is best done with nasty combat characters like WOC, or High Elf Nobles/Princes.

Yrrdead
12-05-2011, 05:15
Sliding is so last edition. And thankfully gone. :P

T10
12-05-2011, 10:31
Sliding is so last edition. And thankfully gone. :P

It was never "in", at least not as a rule.


I'd just like to point out , for the purposes of historical accuracy, that the 7e RAW was basically "live with the clip" and that 'sliding' was not ever in the actual rulebook. It was, however, suggested as a common alternative that could be used by mutual agreement in one of the FAQs for 7e. The appendix that suggested this even went so far as to state "This is not technically allowed by the letter of the rules, ..."

Yet, somehow, almost every player seemed to think that this was not only permitted but mandatory. I guess those guys were just luckily that the BRB wasn't quite so "B" back then...

-T10