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Sepharine
09-05-2011, 12:38
Hello, I appologise if this has been handled before but a search did not bring up any results. I am mainly a 40k player but looking to get into fantasy. Recently some fantasy vets told me about a way to have a unit of chosen get a 3+ ward save most of the time.

This was done by giving the chosen the gift of the gods result for the roll of a 12 in combination with the mark of tzeentch. They would make this very likely to happen by:
1: Giving favor of the god's to the unit champion to raise / lower rolls to the desired result OR to a result which forces a reroll.
2: "Making the unit cause terror" by giving it the magical standard: The banner of the gods. This cannot be given to the unit as its too expensive and as such must be given to a BSB.

The general idea is to keep rerolling the eye is closed, insanity, and the cause fear / terror results until you hit the result of an 11 or a 12 by altering everything to a reroll result with favor of the god. In doing so the only results which do not end in a reroll or the desired Eye of the Gods effect are the unmodified rolls of a 4 or a 5.

My question is: Does this work? It seems to me that the banner of the god states that it grants terror only to the model carrying it which is not actually one of the chosen. Am I overlooking a rule?

Yrrdead
09-05-2011, 12:44
Wailing Banner from the rulebook.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
09-05-2011, 12:45
As said, Wailing Banner, which affects the whole unit, and thus said tactic works.

theunwantedbeing
09-05-2011, 12:49
Chosen of Tzeentch.
Favour of the gods on the unit champion.
Wailing Banner on the unit Standard.

The initial roll lets them re-roll results of
2
3(changed to a 2)
6(changed to a 7)
7
8(changed to a 7)
9(changed to a 10)
10

Results 11 and 12 obviously get you the desired 3+ ward save as the 11 can be altered to a 12, and the 12 is the result you want.
Not quite guaranteed as results 4 and 5 mean you are stuck with them but +1 attack or +1 strength aren't exactly bad rolls to get stuck with.

You may find that by the time you finish rolling your opponent has packed up and left though.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
09-05-2011, 12:51
And if you don't get the ward save, you are guaranteed to get the +1 attack, which is the next best result in my book.

Vandelan
09-05-2011, 12:59
Looking at the rules, if you re-roll and land on a non-duplicate gift that would give you a re-roll, it simply does nothing. The FAQ only states that you get to re-roll re-rolls if the case of duplicate gifts comes up.

Because of the Chosen's rules, you can also re-roll every time a 2 or 7 comes up until you no longer get one of those results, so the regular re-roll rules do not apply here.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
09-05-2011, 13:14
Except that in the Eye of the Gods rule, it states that:

Blah Blah Now causes Fear. If the chosen one already causes Fear or Terror, reroll this result.

Blah Blah Now causes Terror. If the chosen one already causes Terror, reroll this result.

So in this case, the Army Book would trump Rulebook. I know what you are saying, but that is the general consensus on the matter.

Vandelan
09-05-2011, 13:18
Except that in the Eye of the Gods rule, it states that:

Blah Blah Now causes Fear. If the chosen one already causes Fear or Terror, reroll this result.

Blah Blah Now causes Terror. If the chosen one already causes Terror, reroll this result.

So in this case, the Army Book would trump Rulebook. I know what you are saying, but that is the general consensus on the matter.

The army book is telling you to do something that is explained in the BRB. The BRB says you can't re-roll something more than once.

If I have a magic weapon that says I re-roll every roll of a '1', I don't get to roll those dice again if I roll a '1' again.

In the case of Chaos, the dice surely explode or something...

Rosstifer
09-05-2011, 13:18
And it's awesome. Broken, but awesome. Every Tournament I've played has had no issue with the reroll. Nor have any of my opponents, tournament and casual.

Haravikk
09-05-2011, 13:33
The army book is telling you to do something that is explained in the BRB. The BRB says you can't re-roll something more than once.
The FAQ addresses this, and additional re-rolls are specifically permitted in the case of duplicate effects on the Eye of the Gods table; so you essentially keep rolling until you get a valid result.

The part I'd find more uncertain is the validity of using Favour of the Gods to modify a result to be invalid in order to force the re-roll. The intent is clearly to allow you to pick a more favourable result of those adjacent to the one you got, rather than force a re-roll until you get a specific ability.

I'm really disappointed that this still doesn't seem to have been addressed in the recent FAQ updates, as it's clearly not what Favour of the Gods is for at a mere 5 points.

Vandelan
09-05-2011, 13:48
The FAQ addresses this, and additional re-rolls are specifically permitted in the case of duplicate effects on the Eye of the Gods table; so you essentially keep rolling until you get a valid result.

Yes... and no. The keyword is "gift" and not effect. If the unit already causes fear/terror, that is not a duplicate gift and you do not get to re-roll a re-roll (unless the two exceptions in this case are met).

Lord Inquisitor
09-05-2011, 14:08
A friend of mine uses this trick regularly. It is very "gamey" but for the time being it seems to be legal and it is a standard tournament build for WoC (and very annoying to face - a unit with stubborn, 4+/3++ and chosen stats is pretty much impossible to kill). Unless a FAQ states that Favour of the Gods doesn't allow you to move the result onto a result you can't have, it seems to work.

Often coupled with Warshrines to guarantee that 3+ ward (it's actually only about 1 in 3 chance of getting 3+ ward on the first roll). My friend has actually started NOT gunning for 3+ ward on the initial roll because then it ONLY affects the Chosen, but if you get it from a Warshrine, it affects characters too.

Haravikk
09-05-2011, 15:03
Yes... and no. The keyword is "gift" and not effect. If the unit already causes fear/terror, that is not a duplicate gift and you do not get to re-roll a re-roll (unless the two exceptions in this case are met).
Sorry gift, but effect in the case of Fear and Terror as those entries specifically trigger a re-roll even if you don't have that gift.

Sepharine
09-05-2011, 15:15
Ah, it seems I simply missed the correct magic item :). Thanks for clearing this up, and then unclearing it again with talk about the rerolling of rerolls which are not result 2 or 7 :p

Lex
09-05-2011, 16:28
The best one to get on the initial Chosen roll is +1 strength or +1 attack, then roll the ward/stubborn from the Warshrine.

Vaktathi
09-05-2011, 16:34
Unless I'm mistaken, doesn't the Chosen's rule allowing them to reroll 2's and 7's only apply to the initial roll and not to subsequent Warshrine rolls?

shelfunit.
09-05-2011, 16:41
What size do people usually run these chosen units? Nearly 300pts for 10 seems awfully suseptable to missile/spells regardless of a 3+ wardsave..

NixonAsADaemonPrince
09-05-2011, 16:48
At least 20 and often 30 if you are going for all the trimmings, though that is a bit hard on both the points and the wallet.

theunwantedbeing
09-05-2011, 17:02
Unless I'm mistaken, doesn't the Chosen's rule allowing them to reroll 2's and 7's only apply to the initial roll and not to subsequent Warshrine rolls?

Favour of the gods lets them adjust the result.
They can re-roll any result they already have (4 or 5 to begin with).
They can re-roll results of 10 and 11 simply as they already cause terror.

So, if they generate a 5, they can only not re-roll on results of
2,3,7 & 8.
While 7 and 8 are pretty common, its still a large amount of results that get them more of a chance to get that roll of an 11 or 12 to get at the ward save. They can always take a roll of an 8 to also remove the 7 and almost guarantee the next roll will be a 12.(using a second warshrine).

So not re-rolling 7 and 2 isn't that big an issue in getting the ward later on.

shelfunit.
09-05-2011, 17:13
At least 20 and often 30 if you are going for all the trimmings, though that is a bit hard on both the points and the wallet.

30 :confused: wow. that's over 650pts (without any characters...) I suppose it's backed up with several hordes of flail/GW marauders.

Korraz
09-05-2011, 17:19
It's called Chosenstar for a reason.
And yes, the dirt-cheap marauders usually back them up, which is why this tactic works just fine.

Vandelan
09-05-2011, 18:39
Sorry gift, but effect in the case of Fear and Terror as those entries specifically trigger a re-roll even if you don't have that gift.

If you had looked through the earlier posts, you would have seen that I already went over this.


The army book is telling you to do something that is explained in the BRB. The BRB says you can't re-roll something more than once.

If I have a magic weapon that says I re-roll every roll of a '1', I don't get to roll those dice again if I roll a '1' again.

In the case of Chaos, the dice surely explode or something...

Vaktathi
09-05-2011, 19:08
IIRC doesn't the Warriors of Chaos FAQ specifically state that the Eye of the Gods table is an exception to the normal "no rerolls of rerolls" rule?

theunwantedbeing
09-05-2011, 19:10
IIRC doesn't the Warriors of Chaos FAQ specifically state that the Eye of the Gods table is an exception to the normal "no rerolls of rerolls" rule?

Yup.
So you can find that you end out re-rolling for several minutes while your opponent gets more and more bored.

Vandelan
09-05-2011, 19:31
IIRC doesn't the Warriors of Chaos FAQ specifically state that the Eye of the Gods table is an exception to the normal "no rerolls of rerolls" rule?

Not at all, my boy.


Looking at the rules, if you re-roll and land on a non-duplicate gift that would give you a re-roll, it simply does nothing. The FAQ only states that you get to re-roll re-rolls if the case of duplicate gifts comes up.

Because of the Chosen's rules, you can also re-roll every time a 2 or 7 comes up until you no longer get one of those results, so the regular re-roll rules do not apply here.

agurus1
09-05-2011, 19:53
it seems to me that you can't reroll the fear/terror results because it is the banner that is making them have the effects of terror, not the unit itself. Therefore if the wording is, "If the UNIT already causes fear/terror, then reroll." the reroll would, in my humble opinion not be valid, since the unit is not generating in the fear or terror, the BSB is.

Also you must additionally take into consideration when the roll is supposed to take place. Is it before the game starts? Before deployment (in which case the Terror causing BSB isn't even with the Chosen unit in the first case).

Over all I would say, that I would disallow the constant rerolls if the rule under the "fear/terror" results specifically said only reroll if the UNIT causes fear or terror.

Lord Inquisitor
09-05-2011, 20:11
Uh, the banner causes the unit to cause terror.

"A unit with this banner causes Terror"

The unit is causing terror. I don't see what the source matters.

BaSe
09-05-2011, 20:22
it seems to me that you can't reroll the fear/terror results because it is the banner that is making them have the effects of terror, not the unit itself. Therefore if the wording is, "If the UNIT already causes fear/terror, then reroll." the reroll would, in my humble opinion not be valid, since the unit is not generating in the fear or terror, the BSB is.

Also you must additionally take into consideration when the roll is supposed to take place. Is it before the game starts? Before deployment (in which case the Terror causing BSB isn't even with the Chosen unit in the first case).

Over all I would say, that I would disallow the constant rerolls if the rule under the "fear/terror" results specifically said only reroll if the UNIT causes fear or terror.

That's a fair point to argue about the bsb not being in the unit. I don't think it states exactly when u role the dice just before the game starts. Also u could just put the banner on the standard bearer which would ignore this point.

Haravikk
09-05-2011, 20:46
If you had looked through the earlier posts, you would have seen that I already went over this.
I don't need to look through the earlier posts as the one you quoted is exactly the post I was responding to in the first place?


The re-roll of the Fear and Terror gifts to me seem clear that having Fear or Terror already by other means is identical to already having that gift. In particular the intention is clearly for units like Knights that already have Fear as a special rule, in which case I doubt many people at all would argue the re-roll in that case, even if a result was already re-rolled.

The problem is that the Wailing Banner in the rulebook was not available when the rules were designed, and have allowed this exploit as it provides units without innate Fear or Terror to game the system.

Eta
09-05-2011, 20:52
it seems to me that you can't reroll the fear/terror results because it is the banner that is making them have the effects of terror, not the unit itself. Therefore if the wording is, "If the UNIT already causes fear/terror, then reroll." the reroll would, in my humble opinion not be valid, since the unit is not generating in the fear or terror, the BSB is.

Also you must additionally take into consideration when the roll is supposed to take place. Is it before the game starts? Before deployment (in which case the Terror causing BSB isn't even with the Chosen unit in the first case).

Over all I would say, that I would disallow the constant rerolls if the rule under the "fear/terror" results specifically said only reroll if the UNIT causes fear or terror.

There is no terror causing BSB, the Chosen standard bearer carries the Wailing Banner.

warhammero
09-05-2011, 21:05
I play vs one chaos army with 4 machines that give you the rol (i donīt remember the name) in the first turn they have a unit of 25 with: F5, T5, stuborn 4+ AS, 3+ WS, and Terror.

Thats to much for one unit... i think... ok I play with WE, but i belive that this is the Monolith of Fantasy jajajajaja

Lord Inquisitor
09-05-2011, 21:20
Yep. My friend who plays WoC is fond of saying they get the "Immune to Warhammer" ability.

Still, it's not an auto-win button, there are certain things that can hurt this unit (13th spell will ruin your day). More usually it can be blocked and avoided (it's only M4). Warshrines are pretty vulnerable and unfortunately that pesky 25% core requirement means you have to take some relatively squishy "normal" WoC units. It's a subtle as a sledgehammer and it's REALLY hard to deal with the first time you face it. Even if you've read about it online, it's hard to appreciate just how absurd that unit is and you'll throw whatever your rock-hard unit is into it and you'll learn a new meaning of pain. It's possible to grind the unit down, I've been able to build a deathstar with my Ogres that can churn through 30 odd chosenstar - but it turns into a horrific wood chipper on both sides. Sometimes the chosen get away with a couple of models remaining, sometimes my ogres limp away, bloodied and wounded.

reddevil18
10-05-2011, 16:54
Never used this tatic before but i have for it planned for my next game.

scruffyryan
10-05-2011, 17:29
It doesn't really NEED backup.

jaxom
10-05-2011, 17:56
Actually, it needs all kinds of back-up because it is exactly this kind of unit that calls for 20 naked Skaven Engineers and a gunline backed up by a Grey Seer and slaves.

Lord Inquisitor
10-05-2011, 18:01
Heh yeah. You can literally turn the back of your unit on your oponent's heaviest hitting unit and still wipe the floor with them. It's not so much that it needs support - it's biggest weakness is the squishy rest of the army and they need the chosenstar's support...

It's actually a neat trick. I did that with an Ogre deathstar playing against Empire. I allowed his big knight unit to flank my Irongut unit and charge into the side of my unit. I butchered his knights for barely any damage. The look on his face... :eek:

Quinn
10-05-2011, 21:53
I only run the Chosen in Ardboyz and considering some of the stuff you face in that, the 'Chosenstar' is just fine. Actually, this is the first year that I've used them and so far they are a beast. I do go against the fold though, since I run Khorne AHW Chosen instead of the consensus Tzeentch build. I prefer the amount of attacks I can put out over the +1 to a Ward Save that Tzeentch grants. We'll see how it does at the Semis, but so far so good.

As far as when you roll the 'Chosen of the Gods' freebie, the recent FAQ finally cleared that up. It's after deployment.

I am curious how Valkia would affect Warshrine rolls on this unit, since one of her special rules allows all FotG rolls to be rerolled if she is on the table. Since you can already reroll duplicate results, does she allow you to reroll one of the non-duplicate results or do you assume she uses her power even on a duplicate if it comes first? I've thought about running her but can imagine my opponents face when I try to explain that on top of everything else. Then again, no sportsmanship scores at Ardboyz :D

NixonAsADaemonPrince
10-05-2011, 21:58
I thought it was clarified in the FAQ that Valkia doesn't allow you to reroll already rerolled dice, as per normal rules?

Trustey
10-05-2011, 22:11
Strikes me as a cheeseball move, I am going to use the banner/FotG combo though, but MoK not MoT... and I wouldnt reroll a decent gift if I didnt have to.

Quinn
11-05-2011, 00:05
I thought it was clarified in the FAQ that Valkia doesn't allow you to reroll already rerolled dice, as per normal rules?
I can't find that anywhere in the WoC FAQ, but there are references to rerolling duplicate gifts as many times as it takes to get a different result. I'm never going to run Valkia (or the Chosenstar after this Ardboyz) in this kind of combination, but was wondering how she fits in the equation.

Havock
11-05-2011, 00:43
It's in the same street as high elves "speshul" ASF.
Silly, and likely only to last as long as the armybook will.

GodlessM
11-05-2011, 01:03
Not at all, my boy.

Actually it does state as such.

EDMM
11-05-2011, 02:33
It's sad, but I have a unit of Chosen, comprised of Archaon on Foot, Harry the Hammer, Crom, Kordel Shorgaar, 2002 Gamesday Hero, 2009 Gamesday Lord, Avatars of War Chaos Lord, etc. and I can't bring myself to play them anymore because of how stupidly ridiculous this is - just on the off chance I end up getting Stubborn and 4+ ward.

BrotherNefarius
11-05-2011, 15:30
i am wondering about the screaming banner being effective for the FotG roll...

Logically, the unit by itself is not causing Terror, the banner is, and you can lose it if you ever break from melee. So would it count?

This could lead to saying that at the time of the roll, you were causing terror, hence making you reroll. Good point... but that leads to...

(Don't have the book with me) The spell that makes a unit cause terror/fear... does this counts also? so i could simply cast that spell on a unit (without the screaming banner) to make them cause terror. Then roll on the chart (from a warshrine)... oops, rolled 10, they already cause terror (albeit for 1 turn) hence a reroll is required.

Where does it stop?

NixonAsADaemonPrince
11-05-2011, 15:37
It doesn't stop anywhere, if the unit causes Fear or Terror in any way (Even if it is just one model in the unit, or just for turn etc.) the result must be rerolled, otherwise it would contravene the "If the favoured one already causes Fear or Terror, reroll this result" which seems pretty clear to me.

reddevil18
11-05-2011, 16:01
Q. If the Warshrine grants an Eye of the Gods roll to a unit and
the result is a duplicate to a previous roll the unit (or a model inside
the unit) already has, should you re-roll it? (p58)
A. Yes.

Dam posts come in fast, this is directed at Quinn and was the last post here when i started searching for this lol

popisdead
11-05-2011, 19:20
Looking at the rules, if you re-roll and land on a non-duplicate gift that would give you a re-roll, it simply does nothing. The FAQ only states that you get to re-roll re-rolls if the case of duplicate gifts comes up.

Because of the Chosen's rules, you can also re-roll every time a 2 or 7 comes up until you no longer get one of those results, so the regular re-roll rules do not apply here.

Yes I fully agree. I would be shocked if GW actually allowed people to move a valid roll to a re-roll (other than wailing banner) to get what they want.

I claim cheating.

Quinn
11-05-2011, 19:29
'After rolling on the Eye of the Gods table the bearer may add or subtract one from his roll. This may not affect the roll of a natural 2.' There is no mention of a 'valid' roll, so you can claim cheating all you want but it's legal. Is it a cheesy unit?, yes it is in my opinion. Is cheese encouraged at Ardboyz? Yes and I expect plenty of 'whine' along with it, but so far I haven't had a single opponent claim it's cheating, because it is not.

Ferrous82
11-05-2011, 21:59
I just wanted to point out a precedent set by the FAQ concerning special rules given to the unit that aren't gifts...

Q. If you already have Stupidity from a spell or the Helm of Many
Eyes, can you get it again from the Eye of the Gods roll? (p43)
A. Yes, but this will have no additional effects.

This seems to indicate that if the unit was benefiting from Fear/Terror from an item, that they would still be eligible for the gift, but it doesn't do anything for them.

Its not concrete, but its pretty convincing.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
11-05-2011, 22:10
No, because in the description for Eye of the Gods, you are commanded to reroll if Fear or Terror, as appropriate, are already in effect. As it is a direct commandment from the Army Book, this is taken to override the usual rule of rerolling a reroll.

There is no such wording in the Gift which gives Stupidity, thus it does not apply. I would in fact say it points to the opposite, as the FAQ makes clear that you may have that Gift even if you already have the associated special rule, but makes no such distinction in the case of the Gifts which grant Fear and Terror.

Eta
11-05-2011, 22:11
I just wanted to point out a precedent set by the FAQ concerning special rules given to the unit that aren't gifts...

Q. If you already have Stupidity from a spell or the Helm of Many
Eyes, can you get it again from the Eye of the Gods roll? (p43)
A. Yes, but this will have no additional effects.

This seems to indicate that if the unit was benefiting from Fear/Terror from an item, that they would still be eligible for the gift, but it doesn't do anything for them.

Its not concrete, but its pretty convincing.

To quote what Nixon has written in this very thread:

"If the favoured one already causes Fear or Terror, reroll this result"

That's what the rules say. Pretty clear to me. The "stupidity result" does not have this clause, hence it got FAQed.

edit: Bugger, he's as fast at writing as his avatar is with the colt.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
11-05-2011, 22:17
edit: Bugger, he's as fast at writing as his avatar is with the colt.

Why thank-you, Clint had his Colt, I've got my IPod ;) What a crime busting duo we would make....

Ferrous82
11-05-2011, 22:19
I concede then!

tr1pod
12-05-2011, 17:33
I use this tactic every game, and every game I get comments like "This will be FAQ'd soon. It's so broken."

My argument is simple. Look someone discovered how to do this and it's very clever and well played to them. It's good tactics. Simple as that. If GW want to FAQ it to stop people doing it, fine, I probably won't bother with Chosen.

Also, people have to remember, they are VERY expensive. Both financially and points wise.

I take a unit of 10 just to bolster my army and to be honest, they're great fun to play. Every opponent so far has been hell bent on killing them. They died last game funnily enough because I rolled a 5 on the initial roll so they never got the 3+ ward save. Turns out they can be killed. Go figure.

Lord Inquisitor
12-05-2011, 17:43
The bit that "feels wrong" is using the plus or minus one from the 5-point dohicky to pick a result you can't have. I can't find a fault with it on paper, but that's the bit that people tend to have the "that can't be right" gut reaction to.

jaxom
12-05-2011, 17:54
If this were going to be FAQ'd it probably would have been after it showed up in last year's 'Ard-boyz. It's not a new concept after all (I wrote up a tactica for this very build 2 years ago and it only got easier under 8th Ed. army construction rules)... I kinda suspect that someone looked at it and said "yeah, it's a one trick pony that can be countered with other nastiness in 'Ard-boyz" and left it at that.

Lord Inquisitor
12-05-2011, 18:25
Meh, that's not much of justification. People were justifying hiding characters in the second rank when there was space in the first by saying "if it weren't intended they'd have FAQed it by now". Yet it was FAQed and supported the obvious intent of the rules. And I don't think the design team pay any attention to the lists being used at Ard Boyz. Not that I'm saying 3++ chosen are necessarily against the spirit of the game and blocking out chunks of the table with the terror banner is very clever indeed, but using the favour to force a re-roll doesn't seem to be the intent of the item. Like I said, it's legal, but that's the one bit that makes people go "hmm".

jaxom
12-05-2011, 20:00
The FAQ about hiding in the second rank is something that has been discussed here for what, 6 months? Almost a year? I certainly don't recall it being an issue until after the second or third BRB FAQ was already out which means that since it came up they've put out 1 or 2 FAQs? In the time since people have been discussing the Chosenstar they've released a new major edition, at least 5 FAQs for the Warriors book and as many for the BRB.

Maybe they're so dense that they are not aware that some think that this is an issue, but there has been a little bit of time to address it if they thought it was an issue which is not as true of the characters hiding in the second rank.

Don't misunderstand me... I can't tell you what was intended here but that really doesn't matter. Take the example that the author himself made it clear in his own article in White Dwarf that he intended the Eye of the Gods to apply to killing champions but you'll note that this was left out of the book and has been FAQd to clearly state that challenging a champion doesn't result in a roll. What I can tell you is that I doubt the folks at GW are unaware of the Chosenstar and they have not addressed it yet so it would surprise me to see it addressed later regardless of what was originally intended.

Vaktathi
12-05-2011, 20:58
Meh, that's not much of justification. People were justifying hiding characters in the second rank when there was space in the first by saying "if it weren't intended they'd have FAQed it by now". Yet it was FAQed and supported the obvious intent of the rules. And I don't think the design team pay any attention to the lists being used at Ard Boyz. Not that I'm saying 3++ chosen are necessarily against the spirit of the game and blocking out chunks of the table with the terror banner is very clever indeed, but using the favour to force a re-roll doesn't seem to be the intent of the item. Like I said, it's legal, but that's the one bit that makes people go "hmm".

The gaming for rerolls definitely doesn't seem like something GW would put out intentionally. Thought that said, it is a Phil Kelly book, and his works always seem to have at least one particularly silly thing in them.

Quinn
12-05-2011, 21:00
To throw some gasoline on the fire, you don't even have to use the Wailing Banner anymore to get the desired result. The most recent FAQ cleared up when you roll 'Chosen of the Dark Gods' (after deployment), so you could just give the Mask of EEE! to a character deployed in the Chosen and be able to re-roll the Fear or Terror result.:skull:

NixonAsADaemonPrince
12-05-2011, 21:24
@Quinn: As the Chosen's Eye of the Gods rule only applies to them, surely having a character in the unit will have no effect?

GodlessM
12-05-2011, 21:34
To throw some gasoline on the fire, you don't even have to use the Wailing Banner anymore to get the desired result. The most recent FAQ cleared up when you roll 'Chosen of the Dark Gods' (after deployment), so you could just give the Mask of EEE! to a character deployed in the Chosen and be able to re-roll the Fear or Terror result.:skull:

No the FAQ didn't clear this up. This whole argument was based on what constituted the start of the turn, however the whole argument was based on the fact that the entirety of the internet don't read rules fully; Chosen rules say that characters are not effected by the initial roll.

Quinn
12-05-2011, 21:36
@Quinn: As the Chosen's Eye of the Gods rule only applies to them, surely having a character in the unit will have no effect?
The 'Chosen of the Dark Gods' roll will not affect any characters that are deployed with the unit, per the rule. However, if a character that causes Terror is in the unit when it is rolled, I can find nothing that would prevent results #10 or #11 from being rerolled. I also think that if you gave a BSB the banner instead of the unit itself, the same would apply.

This very thing is the reason I asked for clarification on when you roll 'Chosen of the Dark Gods' in the combined FAQ question thread on this site. They just happened to answer it with this FAQ.

Vaktathi
12-05-2011, 21:36
No the FAQ didn't clear this up. This whole argument was based on what constituted the start of the turn, however the whole argument was based on the fact that the entirety of the internet don't read rules fully; Chosen rules say that characters are not effected by the initial roll.

The character isn't being affected, but the unit is causing terror because of the character, thus would already cause fear for the purposes of the Eye of the Gods, despite the character not gaining the benefit of any result rolled.

At least that's how I would interpret it if I were to try and go ultra Raw-fu on it. Not something I'd want to try on an actual, and likely unimpressed, opponent.

Lord Inquisitor
12-05-2011, 22:47
To throw some gasoline on the fire, you don't even have to use the Wailing Banner anymore to get the desired result. The most recent FAQ cleared up when you roll 'Chosen of the Dark Gods' (after deployment), so you could just give the Mask of EEE! to a character deployed in the Chosen and be able to re-roll the Fear or Terror result.:skull:
No. The Terrifying Mask of EEE! would not help, at least not with the Chosen's initial roll, because the UNIT doesn't cause Terror and Characters do not benefit from the initial roll, so nothing in the actual chosen unit causes Terror.

Even if you rolled the result later (i.e. using a Warshrine), while the result would affect the whole unit including characters, still, the unit does not cause Terror only the character and I would say the result would still stand, as the UNIT does not already cause Terror (and would not, for example, be itself immune to Terror, even though the character causes Terror). The Wailing Banner is different, because it specifically states that the UNIT causes Terror. Which is why the combo works.


The 'Chosen of the Dark Gods' roll will not affect any characters that are deployed with the unit, per the rule. However, if a character that causes Terror is in the unit when it is rolled, I can find nothing that would prevent results #10 or #11 from being rerolled. I also think that if you gave a BSB the banner instead of the unit itself, the same would apply.
Certainly it wouldn't be re-rolled for the initial Chosen of the Dark Gods roll. From a Warshrine, more up for debate but as I've already said, the whole unit doesn't cause Fear or Terror so I don't think you'd get the re-roll. Not a big deal at least as far as the Chosenstar goes as you'll be using the Wailing Banner anyway.

Yes, I agree I think it would work with a BSB with the Wailing Banner. Not sure what the advantage is this way though.

GodlessM
12-05-2011, 22:50
The character isn't being affected, but the unit is causing terror because of the character

No they are not, go re-read the special rules section of the BRB.

Vaktathi
12-05-2011, 22:57
No they are not, go re-read the special rules section of the BRB.

I don't have it in front of me and won't for several hours. Doesn't having a character that causes Fear/Terror in a unit function the same way as if the unit had it (i.e. enemies need to test for it)?

GodlessM
12-05-2011, 23:00
I don't have it in front of me and won't for several hours. Doesn't having a character that causes Fear/Terror in a unit function the same way as if the unit had it (i.e. enemies need to test for it)?

The enemy need to test for it if in base contact with the character specifically, but that doesn't grant the rule to the unit. An enemy on a smaller base could maximise to the unit without touching the character, which is why the distinction is important. Base rule of special rules, unless stated otherwise a special rule does not carry from character to unit.

Vaktathi
12-05-2011, 23:04
Hrm, ok, that would in fact make things different then. I haven't gotten to play much fantasy lately sadly, only a couple games in the last couple months, so I'm kinda rusty on Fantasy rules.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
12-05-2011, 23:31
Even if you rolled the result later (i.e. using a Warshrine), while the result would affect the whole unit including characters, still, the unit does not cause Terror only the character and I would say the result would still stand, as the UNIT does not already cause Terror (and would not, for example, be itself immune to Terror, even though the character causes Terror). The Wailing Banner is different, because it specifically states that the UNIT causes Terror. Which is why the combo works.

The FAQ seems to say to the contrary:

"Q. If the Warshrine grants an Eye of the Gods roll to a unit and the result is a duplicate to a previous roll the unit (or a model inside the unit) already has, should you reroll it?
A. Yes."

I'll admit that this is talking about duplicate Gifts and not Fear/Terror, and I do see where you are coming from, but I would say it points in the direction of the result having to be rerolled.

Lord Inquisitor
12-05-2011, 23:49
Okay fair point. I don't think there's a distinction between Eye granted Terror and Terror from other sources. Then for warshrines I guess it would work to have a terror causing character in there. Still wouldn't work for the chosen initial roll.

GodlessM
13-05-2011, 12:11
Hrm, ok, that would in fact make things different then. I haven't gotten to play much fantasy lately sadly, only a couple games in the last couple months, so I'm kinda rusty on Fantasy rules.

Fair enough then. Sorry if I came off a tad harsh.

GWItheUltimate
13-05-2011, 14:45
Ok so Wailling Banner makes them cause Terror + Favour of the Gods on the Champ = OMFG !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thus said, you still have 70% chance on getting +1STR or +1AT Versus 30% chance of getting Ward 4+/Stubborn.

Cause rolling 4 or 5 = 7/36
Rolling 11 or 12 = 3/36
Everything else = Reroll

Then, Getting 4-5 = 7/10 and 11/12 = 3/10 by some math I don't wanna prove.

Lord Inquisitor
13-05-2011, 14:51
Yes. It's only about 1/3 on the initial roll. Which is why chosenstar lists are backed up by a couple of warshrines. In some ways getting the 4+ ward on the warshrine roll is better as it will benefit the attached characters too.

GodlessM
13-05-2011, 15:10
Yes. It's only about 1/3 on the initial roll. Which is why chosenstar lists are backed up by a couple of warshrines. In some ways getting the 4+ ward on the warshrine roll is better as it will benefit the attached characters too.

Usually doesn't matter as most characters will be tooled up with a 3+ or 4+ ward anyway.

theunwantedbeing
13-05-2011, 15:19
Usually doesn't matter as most characters will be tooled up with a 3+ or 4+ ward anyway.

Yes, that is rather annoying that they now have rather easy access to 3+/4+ wards that work against magic as well as mundane stuff......

Lord Inquisitor
13-05-2011, 15:42
Particularly things like BSB with a magic banner or sorcerers loaded up on goodies benefit hugely from a free 3+ ward. Chosen don't exactly need help in combat but support characters like these like to mooch off the chosen's free save.

electors champion
13-05-2011, 17:00
damn i was hoping this would never be posted on here :/ now people know.

GodlessM
13-05-2011, 21:49
damn i was hoping this would never be posted on here :/ now people know.

You say that like it was your little secret :shifty:

electors champion
14-05-2011, 10:14
no had it used against me, not fun lol
and it was a joke but i digress

BrotherNefarius
16-05-2011, 18:20
Why not give the Mask of EEE! to the champion, and FotG to a character attached to the unit?

Freeing the banner for the banner of rage, and enabling the FotG Char to switch unit once you have your 3++ to give the FotG to another unit...

Sepharine
17-05-2011, 00:29
Why not give the Mask of EEE! to the champion, and FotG to a character attached to the unit?

Freeing the banner for the banner of rage, and enabling the FotG Char to switch unit once you have your 3++ to give the FotG to another unit...

Do you have a citation which allows FotG to be used by other models than the model using it? My only knowledge of this being possible is the specific case of the Chaos Chosen Champion, as this was mentioned in the FAQ. Apart from that I see no reason to assume other models / units may use the FotG effect of a character.

GodlessM
17-05-2011, 11:58
Why not give the Mask of EEE! to the champion, and FotG to a character attached to the unit?

Freeing the banner for the banner of rage, and enabling the FotG Char to switch unit once you have your 3++ to give the FotG to another unit...

Because characters are not effected by the initial game roll, so you would not be able to move the result, greatly decreasing your chances of an 11 or 12. Also, you would need two Shrines to make this work, as once a Shrine activates again the last blessing it gave is gone, so with only one Shrine, if you Chosen get the 3++ from it, the character won't b
have anything to use his FoTG with.