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vorthrax
09-05-2011, 14:29
EDIT: Adjustments made to this list are a few posts down.

Listing this from memory...

Dreadlord
Dark Pegasus
Whip of Agony (St 5, AP)
Pendant of Kaeleth (Reverse Ward Save)
Crown of Command (Stubborn)
Sea Dragon Cloak
Heavy Armor
Shield

Supreme Sorceress
Level 3
Talisman of Endurance (5+ Ward Save)
Dispell Scroll

Death Hag
Cauldron of Blood
Nearly exclusively there to provide 5+ Ward for Executioners and less commonly to give the Executioners +1 Attack

Death Hag
Deployed with Executioners
Battle Standard Bearer (ASF Banner)
Rune of Khaine (+D3 A)
Witches Brew (No bonuses for Flank/Rear)

40 Executioners
10x4
Full Command
Flaming Banner

20 Repeater Crossbowmen
10x2
Musician, Banner

20 Repeater Crossbowmen
10x2
Musician, Banner

20 Repeater Crossbowmen
10x2
Musician, Banner

War Hydra

War Hydra

Unless I misremembered the list, it should come out to 2495 points.

I have only run a similar list a couple of times. The previous encarnation had a level 2 (Shadow lore) instead of level 3 Sorceress and 10 more executioners. I had a massacre win and didn't lose a single unit against a Warriors of Chaos army in my first game. My second game was a near disaster for me versus a Vampire Counts army. Wraiths and Spirit Hosts were my downfall due to lack of magical attacks on my part. I hope to remedy that by switching from Shadow to either Fire or Metal but I will miss Shadow's Hexes.

Thoughts?

Glorfindel
09-05-2011, 21:02
Isn't that trusting a bit too much in one big unit of executioners?

tmarichards
09-05-2011, 21:51
Dreadlord could do with the Dragonhelm. Other than that, very standard. I've been running that exact character on a dark steed in some recent games, follow the link in my sig if you're interested to see how he's been going. I used him in the the most recent 4 games.

I'm not sold on the massive block of Executioners and I think Witch Elves would be infinitely better, I'll run down why:

1. First up, they only have a 5+ ward. Vs a lot of things, this will be negated. Before they get into combat, Witches can have the 5+ ward for an effect which will never be worse and often be better.

2. Witches remove the need for the ASF BSB. This allows you to spend the points on making the Supreme Sorceress a level 4, thus increasing your chance of getting Mindrazor. You can make the Cauldron your BSB.

3. Assuming Mindrazor as a given, take Witch Elves in a combat comparison- before the Cauldron buffs, you have 2 attacks more, one less weapons skill, 2 higher strength and poison. Witches also do not require that very fragile BSB to survive in order to go before most things (I6 compared to ASL).

4. Witch Elves are cheaper, allowing you to take more.

5. Witch Elves will kill more stuff in combat, meaning less attacks back. 30 Witches in horde formation with a Cauldron blessing will dish out 61 poison attacks. Factor in hatred and Mindrazor.

I've been running a big block of Witch Elves in all of my recent games, again check out the battle reports in my signature for more info on how they do. Feel free to skip the first tournament, the sound quality is a bit poor.

I'd split the xbows into units of 10. You lose no shots, and gain twice the flexibility. They also don't need banners unless you'll be playing the scenarios, and even then I'd rate shields as a higher priority, which is not even necessary.

Don Zeko
10-05-2011, 05:05
I basically agree. If you want to run executioners in a horde, that's fine, but they're really a sub-par choice when compared to horded witch elves, spearmen, or corsairs with shadow magic. A hag BSB for the ASF banner is pretty much always not worth the points; if you're concerned about your execs taking too many wounds before attacking, spend those 200 points on more executioners so you won't mind the casualties and don't lose your T3 no save BSB in the first round of CC.

Also, I'm really not comfortable running with only the one big combat unit. My rule of thumb is that a tournament army should have 4 units that don't mind charging an enemy block to the front. That gives you some flexibility with your matchups and a lot more leeway if something goes wrong. With this list you do have that stubborn lord and hydras to play with, but the game will still basically come down to whether or not your execs get into combat and win. I wouldn't want to run a list where a single lucky helstorm shot can end the game on turn 1.

Glorfindel
10-05-2011, 11:52
I agree, The death hag with ASF banner was superb in 7th edtion. Now it's totally not necessary unles you wanna take units with twohanders :). executioners are cool (I like em alot) but with the ASL it's annoying and they got nerfed badly especially for non ASF elves (so non high elves) this is the worst now :/ and trying to make up for it with the banner is perhaps a nice try but probably more of point sink than anything else.

vorthrax
30-08-2011, 15:39
I altered the above list a bit (see below) and took Best General (5/0 record, 93/100 Battle Points) a few weeks ago at the 2011 Bayou Battles (http://houstonfb.com/Results.html) Indi-GT.

Dreadlord
Dark Pegasus
Sword of Might
Pendant of Kaeleth
Crown of Command
Dragon Helm
Sea Dragon Cloak
Heavy Armor
Shield

Supreme Sorceress
Level 4
Lore of Metal
Talisman of Endurance
Sacrificial Dagger

Sorceress
Level 2
Lore of Metal
Dragonbane Gem
Ironcurse Icon
Dispell Scroll

Death Hag
Battle Standard Bearer
Cauldron of Blood

40 Executioners
10x4 Horde Formation
Full Command

10 Repeater Crossbowmen
5x2
Shields

10 Repeater Crossbowmen
5x2
Shields

10 Repeater Crossbowmen
5x2
Shields

10 Repeater Crossbowmen
5x2
Shields

War Hydra

War Hydra

Emissary
03-10-2011, 16:45
Must be missing something (or the tourney organizers missed something): How are you getting your 25% core?

Monstrum
04-10-2011, 10:13
not only is your list illegal, but its not possible to win 5 tournament battles with a single combat unit

Dirty Mac
04-10-2011, 11:48
Also, Where is that lvl 4 going?
A: Put in in that unit of 10 and 3 Wounds later it's panic tests for you.
B: Also for sacrifices crossbow men are almost twice as expensive as warriors.

Raffazza
04-10-2011, 15:55
not only is your list illegal, but its not possible to win 5 tournament battles with a single combat unit

No idea at all re the core side of the list, assume he has missed some core out...

But you really can win 5 tournament battles with a single combat unit. Whether you can with THAT unit is another question entirely

vorthrax
30-11-2011, 15:05
Sorry, I haven't looked at this thread in a long while. I did indeed leave out a unit of 25 Dark Elf Warriors (with shields) including full command. This list works out to exactly 2500 points. And yes, if you don't count the Repeater Crossbow units (maybe you should), the Warriors (you shouldn't), and two Hydras (how can you not?), I did go 5/0 in a 70 player GT with this "single combat unit" list.

On the other hand, I didn't fair as well in my last GT (this month) only going 2/3 with this list. Of course, I blaim the dice! ;)

My record with this exact list (including: local tournaments, GTs, pickup games, and challenge board games) is right around 70% over the last forty-something games.

Amended list below:

Dreadlord
Dark Pegasus
Sword of Might
Pendant of Kaeleth
Crown of Command
Dragon Helm
Sea Dragon Cloak
Heavy Armor
Shield

Supreme Sorceress
Level 4
Lore of Metal
Talisman of Endurance
Sacrificial Dagger

Sorceress
Level 2
Lore of Metal
Dragonbane Gem
Ironcurse Icon
Dispell Scroll

25 Warriors
5x5
Full Command
Shields
Both Sorceresses bunkered in this unit

Death Hag
Battle Standard Bearer
Cauldron of Blood

40 Executioners
10x4 Horde Formation
Full Command

10 Repeater Crossbowmen
5x2
Shields

10 Repeater Crossbowmen
5x2
Shields

10 Repeater Crossbowmen
5x2
Shields

10 Repeater Crossbowmen
5x2
Shields

War Hydra
War Hydra

tmarichards
30-11-2011, 17:41
Well, the first problem that jumps put is that everybody at an uncomped event can kill 2 hydras, and so of someone can deal with the Execs you're in trouble. It basically seems to come down to their army vs your Execs...

vorthrax
30-11-2011, 20:01
It all usually works out pretty well. I rarely get "outgunned" so to speak.

As expected, the Dreadlord tarpits anything I don't want to deal with. On rare occasions (Dwarfs and Empire usually) I may choose to have him go warmachine hunting instead.

The Hydras actually survive pretty well in most cases. When someone tosses Pit of Shades on them, that can hurt. Lots of flaming attacks can be pretty painful too. But it's like anything else. When the opponent is focusing on one thing, they're ignoring another.

The combination of the Cauldron's 5+ ward save and Lore of Metal buffs on the Executiones make them very survivable. Glittering Robe is almost always allowed to be cast because opponents will often hold dispell dice in anticipation of Final Transmutation.

The Executioners are generally into whatever unit I want them to be engaged with by turn 2. Adding Enchanted Blades to the Executioners and Transmutation of Lead (when needed) to whatever unit the Execs are fighting makes for a, in most cases, rerollable 2+ to hit and 2+ to wound with little to no armor save from 31 attacks. Very little survives that unless the opposing unit can do enough wounds to the Execs before they get to swing. But with 3+ armor and 5+ ward, they're usually healthy enough when their turn to attack comes up.

The Crossbows are good (I'm not sure great) for ranged attacks (80 shots per turn). Are the best (unbuffed) defensive unit that Dark Elves have available to them. In a pinch they also work well enough as redirectors and flank chargers.

I'm not saying this is the best Dark Elf list ever but it's the best I've come up with and has proven, in my gaming experience, to be very synergistic and perform well. My toughest army matchups tend to be Skaven and Lizardmen, by the way.

Lately I have test played a similar list that has the Execs replaced with frenzied Corsairs with ASF BSB, two Crossbow units replaced with Reaper Bolt Throwers, and the level 4 Sorceress goes to Shadow Lore. The only thing that makes me nervous is that the one spell I REALLY need to get off (Mindrazor) is usually the one spell my opponent is saving his dispell dice/scroll for. I'm uncomfortable purposefully throwing dice with the intention of getting an irresistable/miscast result. What do you all think of it? Also, in the Corsair/Bolt Thrower build, should I go with Shadow Lore on the level 2 or stick with 4-Shadow/2-Metal?

tmarichards
30-11-2011, 20:48
I completely missed Lore of Metal, sorry! I just assumed Shadow since I'm a dirty power gamer... Metal definitely makes the Execs more survivable, my bad!

I get what you mean about xbows being a little underwhelming, I find that if I want to run a shooty list shades do it better and are still nails in combat. You're right though, they are great for picking off chaff and covering flanks, but they rarely do much for me which is why I've switched to a single unit of 12-14.

I can see the problem of the Mindrazor list (that people will save a scroll for it), but there are ways you can get around that- for example, a 3D6 Fireball from a Fire level 1 will often force people to burn a scroll. This is especially true when you roll low doubles in magic phase, so you'll have 6-8 dice available to cast but your opponent will only have 3-4 to dispel with.

Other ways of drawing out scrolls include pointing shades at their prized unit and casting Withering at it, or one of my current favourites is to charge a unit of 8 Witch Elves at someone and Mindrazor them- if your opponent doesn't scroll it, then they risk taking 24 S8 attacks. If do scroll it, you lose 80 points (what a shame...), but your opponent then has no scroll when the Corsairs roll in.

It's also why I love running Black Guard alongside Corsairs- the Black Guard can hold their own in combat against pretty much anything, especially with the Banner of Murder and Crimson Death- this allows you to focus all your magic (and Cauldron!) on the Corsairs, whilst the Black Guard basically rip-face all on their own :)

I completely agree with you re Skaven and Lizards, they're horrible. Templates make me cry, and Salamanders especially make me rage- especially when the Lizards player dares whinge about a hydra...

I really think that if you're going to take Shadow, it should be on the higher level mage- main reasons are the fairly high casting values and there being a few relatively poor spells in the deck- I don't think I've ever cast Steed, and I can only remember having cast Pendulum once. Even with a level 4 I've ended up with a set of spells that has been very underwhelming, basically being a Miasma and then another useful spell for that game.

If you want to spend 200pts on Reapers, I think you'd be better off spending those 200pts on shades instead- Reapers are pretty easy to kill, and unless people are running a lot of knights around you then shades will do a lot more I think.

vorthrax
30-11-2011, 21:08
tmarichards, several of your points from your first post in this thread were well heeded and incorporated into my current list and this time is no exception. Great ideas and I will definitely try them!