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Lord Inquisitor
09-05-2011, 16:25
I got hold of a copy of the Tomb Kings book and looking through their magic items, they have an arcane item (Neferra's Scrolls of Mighty Incantations), which is essentially a Power Scroll that also adds bonus dice (that aren't power dice :eyebrows:) equal to the wizard's level.

Now, I don't begrudge the TK some powerful items (and some of the others are a bit rubbish), but are the designers not aware that virtually all tournaments ban the power scroll? It is the one single most broken thing in the rulebook items and is banned because certain combos with the powerscroll have the potential in certain matchups to end the game turn 1, for a dirt-cheap price.

So now the TK have one that fits in a hero character's allowance, is a power scroll that brings it's own dice, circumventing the only real issue with the power scroll combos (if you position everything right and the winds blow low, you might be left high and dry). Plus the TK can take the power scroll too!

Should we expect to see Neferra's Scrolls banned at tournaments like the power scroll? Or does the fact that it is 1/8 of the TK magic items give it dispensation and we'll just have to suffer IF max-power purple sun/skullstorm when we play TK?

GodlessM
09-05-2011, 16:37
Now, I don't begrudge the TK some powerful items (and some of the others are a bit rubbish), but are the designers not aware that virtually all tournaments ban the power scroll?

Are players not aware that Warhammer isn't written to be a tournament game?

The bearded one
09-05-2011, 16:54
It's indeed a powerscroll plus. Then again Tk have an overreliance on magic and don't take the loss of wizards lightly. A heirophant will certainly think long and hard before cracking out this here ol' powerscroll. TK don't really have abuseable choices in conjunction with this scroll like the ever so lame "fly forward -> use powerscroll and cast purple sun with 6 dice -> ??? -> profit!" Rather I think this item here is rather to be used to top off a good magic phase or save a terrible one. The magical 'ace in the hole' to get that buff through to a unit that desperately needs it while your powerpool is low or the enemy has a lot of magic defence.

I don't think it's a big deal TK have this. It would be utterly broken in the hands of other armies though.

Rosstifer
09-05-2011, 16:56
I saw it, but didn't worry too much, Tomb Kings haven't exactly got broken magic.

Spiney Norman
09-05-2011, 17:17
I saw it, but didn't worry too much, Tomb Kings haven't exactly got broken magic.

Right because I couldn't bring a L4 LHP with the lore of death and send an irresistible hi-level purple sun your way could I?

I can see this happening quite a lot, 2 level 4s, one to be the hierophant and the other to be a suicide death mage with the mighty scroll. The scary thing is you'd only need to use 3 dice from the pool to guarantee an irresistible result.

Enkil's Kanopi is also a very nice item for the cost of a dispel scroll, I was somewhat shocked that it actually generated PD for each spell it dispelled, against ogres TK are practically going to get two magic phases.

TK certainly did a LOT better than O&G out of their 8 items

1 nerfed (DoE)
1 OKish (Blade of Antarhak)
3 great items (death mask, enkil's & undying standard)
1 rather pointless (cloak of dunes)
1 crap beyond belief (banner of hidden dead)
and 1 unholy broken item of doom (mighty scrolls)

The bearded one
09-05-2011, 18:03
Right because I couldn't bring a L4 LHP with the lore of death and send an irresistible hi-level purple sun your way could I?

you could.. but you don't have the tools to easily bring a high liche priest into position for such a spell (like a flying mount), unless you fire it at the enemy head on and suffer the consequences of the miscast. And even if you did, this fun little one-time joke costs you 255 points, not to mention having 2 lvl4's is rather pointless because they have to share limited powerpool between them.


I can see this happening quite a lot, 2 level 4s, one to be the hierophant and the other to be a suicide death mage with the mighty scroll. The scary thing is you'd only need to use 3 dice from the pool to guarantee an irresistible result.

I don't think it will happen often, simply because it's expensive and the suicide mage can't easily get into a prime position ( a sun down the flank ). Someone might try it out once but it certainly does not have the possibilities that it would have in the hands of other armies. Can you imagine dark elves with that thing? With TK it's "hey, that's got some nice potential". Personally I would have it on my hierophant (I would give him the 4+ ward talisman btw) and blast off in the last turn of the game for a nice goodbye or in a moment of desperation when I really need to get that spell off. It would be my ace in the hole.


TK certainly did a LOT better than O&G out of their 8 items

totally agree. I was shocked they had items that looked very appealing :) I like the Blade of Antarhak, the golden deathmask and the scrolls.


1 nerfed (DoE) I don't know what it used to do, so can't say anything. Heroic killing blow seems nice on paper, especially when it can be turned into 5+. "Hi unit of monstrous infantry! Sjack!" Ogres will hate it. It's expensive though, so loses appeal.
1 OKish (Blade of Antarhak) I think it's pretty good. I can see a prince using it to great effect
3 great items (death mask, enkil's & undying standard) mmmh.. while I agree with the death mask ( it's awesome. Skaven slave trains are going to cry! ) I think the boundspell items are decent at best, because you'll need to spend powerdice on them and won't up the casting with your wizardlevel so they can easily be dispelled. Against ogres Enkhil's will be awesome.
1 rather pointless (cloak of dunes) It has great potential. Against skinks for example and also against T3 troops like elves. Kill 4 elves with it and you got the poins back
1 crap beyond belief (banner of hidden dead) sounds like fun to try out, but not incredibly exciting, especially for long term use. If this thing allowed the entombed unit to come up anywhere on the table it would be cool, but within 12" of the banner? nah
and 1 unholy broken item of doom (mighty scrolls)

My assesments in green

Korraz
09-05-2011, 18:14
I'll laugh at anyone that uses his Level 4 with Death. A level 2 ain't going to dish out the support the army needs.
Remember: Tomb Kings can't just fling away a mage in a suicide rush. Heroes are what kits the synergies together.

Grim Tuesday
09-05-2011, 19:12
When I first saw the mighty scrolls, I was pretty baffled as to why such and powerful (and similar) item had been gifted to the TK. however, trying to think of applications is slightly more difficult - since the Hierophant has to take the lore of nehekhara and there is nothing that is especially difficult to get off, or worth risking a miscast for on such an important model.

Supporting mages on lore of death or light is a possibility - but they will either be lvl 2, and receive less of a bonus from the item as well as lowered likelihood of rolling a desired spell, or a second very expensive lvl 4. Either way, it is a reasonable item for the TK - but I agree would be broken if made available for the majority of other armies.

Also, while they may have done better from their 8 magic items - the TK still didn't do as well as would be hoped - around half of their items are way too expensive for what they do, DoE being a great example.

EneecauV
09-05-2011, 19:19
Regular lvl 4 Hierophant, kit as you wish.

Lvl 4 with Lore of Death, Cloak of the Dunes and Neferra's Scrolls

Lvl 2 Liche Priest with Lore of Death

Besides the mandatory Hierophant you pay 415 points for this combo.

Compare it to the VC variant.

The main weakness of this combo is the requirement to succeed in casting Desert Wind with the lvl 4 to make your suicide-mage get into position, plus having enough power dice left (2) to actually cast Purple Sun.
Also, there is a VERY small chance that your lvl 4 won't roll neither any double number or a six.

Will certainly try it sometime. Possibly make an awesome conversion of the death priest with the cloak to boot. : p

TheKingInYellow
09-05-2011, 19:31
Also, while they may have done better from their 8 magic items - the TK still didn't do as well as would be hoped - around half of their items are way too expensive for what they do, DoE being a great example.

DoE too expensive? +2 STR and HKB from a one-handed weapon while still leaving enough points for a 2+ ward against flaming attacks and an enchanted shield?

I think it's incredibly well priced.

Lord Inquisitor
09-05-2011, 22:46
Well, let's look at the options. I'm not sure it's the most broken item ever and certainly it's less use to TK than it might be to other armies.

Liche high priest
- Skeletal Steed
- Level 4
- Neferra's Scrolls

That's 275. Yes, it's a lot more than a Vampire + Lore of Death + Power Scroll (170), and this can't be your heirophant, but you're still getting a Level 4 for the rest of the game too (assuming the miscast doesn't kill him, which is unlikely). For 35 points more you could have Cloak of the Dunes and Fly (although it just occurred to me that this isn't quite as good as the vampire version as you're still limited to M10, TK fliers can't move 20" anymore.)

You don't need a Level 2 as well, a Level 4 can usually get a specific spell.

Alternatively, if you're going for Lore of Nehekhara - and remember Sakhmet's Incantation of the Skullstorm is better against MOST armies than purple sun - then you can do it cheaply with a level 2.

- Buy a Level 4 Liche High Priest (but you're getting one anyway, right?) and go for spells other than the Skullstorm
- Level 2 Liche Priest, steed, Neferra's Scrolls. That's only 165 points - less than the VC version.

It might not be a turn 1 blast (unless you can magic the horses up) but that combo is reasonably fast (I was wondering if you could piggy-back off a Vanguard move but I don't think you can do that) and then throw a large size Skullstorm along the flanks. That's more devastating than a purple sun against any kind of human infantry, goblinoids, elves of any stripe, skaven, WOC, about equal against other undead, etc. Only Dwarfs, Lizards, Orcs and Ogres is the purple sun better against infantry.

I don't think this item is going to break the game but I think it's going to be problematic. The fact that it carries it's own dice means it's pretty self-contained and there's no risk of getting them in position and having a fizzled winds roll.

We shall see. I think when we start playing that Neferra's Scrolls + Skullstorm and a decent artillery dice roll will be the end of many games.

panic_puppet
09-05-2011, 22:48
@ TheKingInYellow - thats EXACTLY the setup I ran last week when I played a lizardmen army, and it was brutal. It looks expensive, but the fact that its no longer a great weapon makes it much better than the old incarnation. In a nutshell, its gone up 10 points, only does 1 auto hit per model with its sweeping attack rather than 2, but is no longer a great weapon (so no ASL, and means we can take a shield), adds +2 to str anyway, and upgraded KB to HKB. I'd take that change any day of the week.

ihavetoomuchminis
09-05-2011, 23:40
And don't forget the option to cast a powered up soulblight when half the opponent units are engaged with your WS 5 or 6 skeletons that repeat to hit. Or cast it in your first or second turn when nothing is engaged and your hordes of 6 point archer skeletons hitting always on 5+ have multiple shots (2) cast on them.

Maoriboy007
09-05-2011, 23:43
From what I can gather -
A)the scroll only allows the user to roll an extra amount of dice equal to thier level (so needs to be a level 4-usually your heirpophant)
B)They are not power dice and do not add to the casting level of the spell.
C)IF you roll a double on the extra dice only, you get to cast with IF and miscast
C)twice the cost of a powerscroll
D)Unless you are paying for 2 wizards , will likely be using the lore of Nehek.

Possibly potent in a given situation, but not powerscroll level by any means, especially taking into account all the provisos required.


and remember Sakhmet's Incantation of the Skullstorm is better against MOST armies than purple sun - then you can do it cheaply with a level 2.. :confused: Skullstorm does a single wound , allows armour regen and ward saves. Psun devestates any unit with medium to low initiative and takes most monsters and Warmachine off the board.
You might be able to say is that Skullstorm is occasionally better against vanilla humans and elves as long as they have no armour or ward saves.
The casting level of skullstorm is way out of proportion in comparison.

Dante blackfur
10-05-2011, 01:03
Also with Psun, you have the potential of generating additional PD with every kill. :)

GodlessM
10-05-2011, 01:58
Right because I couldn't bring a L4 LHP with the lore of death and send an irresistible hi-level purple sun your way could I?


Which my Chaos Warriors laugh at, as do any of my three Elf armies, my mate's Skaven army, my other mate's Daemon army, etc.; shall I continue? I myself would then laugh that I'm facing a rather lacklustre lore compared to what I could have been facing.

EDMM
10-05-2011, 02:05
Light? Are you talking about Light? Because I know you're not taking about Nehekara.

Lord Inquisitor
10-05-2011, 02:19
From what I can gather -
A)the scroll only allows the user to roll an extra amount of dice equal to thier level (so needs to be a level 4-usually your heirpophant)
To get 4 dice. But 2 extra dice on a Level 2 is not at all shabby.

B)They are not power dice and do not add to the casting level of the spell.
They are added, otherwise what's the point :eyebrows: They aren't power dice but they are added, like mushrooms.

C)IF you roll a double on the extra dice only, you get to cast with IF and miscast
Pretty sure it is any double on any of the dice, power and bonus added together. I think you're going to have a fight on your hands to convince TK players of your interpretation.

C)twice the cost of a powerscroll
If by twice you mean 50pts compared to 35pts.

D)Unless you are paying for 2 wizards , will likely be using the lore of Nehek.
Will certainly be using the Lore of Nehek unless you buy an extra wizard. But since it is in the realm of heroes, you can easily take it on a secondary caster.


Skullstorm does a single wound , allows armour regen and ward saves. Psun devestates any unit with medium to low initiative and takes most monsters and Warmachine off the board.

I've heard this said before and I think people are going to change their minds when they see Skullstorm in action. Let's look at each army, I'll also give an "average wounds" for comparison purposes for most armies assuming the template hits 20 of the given type:

Beasts
Gor - equivalent (SS10/PS10)
Ungor - Skullstorm slight advantage (SS13/PS10)

Brettonia
Knights - Psun large advantage (SS4/PS10)
Peasants - Skullstorm slight advantage (SS13/PS10)

Daemons
Daemonettes - Skullstorm large advantage (SS9/PS3)
Bloodletters - Skullstorm slight advantage (SS9/PS7)
Plaguebearers - Psun very large advantage (SS7/PS17)

Dark Elves
Warriors (shields) - Skullstorm very large advantage (SS11/PS3)

Dwarfs
Warriors (heavy armour, shields) - Psun large advantage (SS7/PS13)

High Elves
Spearmen/Swordmasters - Skullstorm very large advantage (SS11/PS3)

Lizardmen
Saurus – Psun very large advantage (SS7/PS17)
Skinks – Skullstorm very large advantage (SS 17/PS7)

Ogres
Ogres – Psun very large advantage (SS3/PS13)
Gnoblars – Skullstorm slight advantage (SS13/PS10)

Orcs-n-Gobbos
Orcs – Psun slight advantage (SS10/PS13)
Gobbos – Skullstorm slight advantage (SS13/PS10)

Skaven
Clanrats – Skullstorm large advantage (SS13/PS7)
Note – skullstorm very useful vs giant clanrat/slave units.

Empire
Halberdiers – skullstorm slight advantage (SS13/PS10)
Note – PSun useful vs steam tanks & war machines

Tomb Kings
Skeletons (light armour, shield) – Psun slight advantage (SS11/PS13)

Vampire Counts
Ghouls – equivalent (SS10/PS10)

Warriors of Chaos
Warriors (shields) – Skullstorm slight advantage (SS5/PS3)
Marauders (naked) - Skullstorm large advantage (SS13/PS7)
Note – Psun useful vs hellcannon

Wood Elves.
Glade guard – Skullstorm very large advantage (SS13/PS3)


Conclusion:
Psun better against:
Ogres, Dwarfs, Lizards, Brettonia, Tomb Kings (barely)

Roughly equivalent or situationally better:
Empire, Orcs'n'Gobbos, Vampire Counts, Beastmen, Daemons

Skullstorm better against:
High Elves, Dark Elves, Wood Elves, Skaven, Warriors of Chaos



You might be able to say is that Skullstorm is occasionally better against vanilla humans and elves as long as they have no armour or ward saves.
The casting level of skullstorm is way out of proportion in comparison.
I can say it does almost 4x more damage to even elite elves (it'll massacre the average HE build with swordmasters and spearmen). It'll butcher skaven, dealing large amounts of damage (around 50% more). It'll butcher marauders and even deal more damage to 3+ save warriors of chaos, so no, it isn't just better against no armour troops. I don't think that's "occasionally". Skullstorm is at least as good as Psun, on average, at killing infantry. Now, Psun is good against war machines, making it useful against Empire and it does regain you powerdice, but Skullstorm is not to be sniffed at.

bluemage
10-05-2011, 02:37
I'd like to point out that Skullstorm has a longer range on a level 4 wizard as well.

decker_cky
10-05-2011, 02:41
I can say it does almost 4x more damage to even elite elves (it'll massacre the average HE build with swordmasters and spearmen). It'll butcher skaven, dealing large amounts of damage (around 50% more). It'll butcher marauders and even deal more damage to 3+ save warriors of chaos, so no, it isn't just better against no armour troops. I don't think that's "occasionally". Skullstorm is at least as good as Psun, on average, at killing infantry. Now, Psun is good against war machines, making it useful against Empire and it does regain you powerdice, but Skullstorm is not to be sniffed at.

Don't disagree with the overall point, but you need to slide the bar. On anything you rated as roughly equivalent, purple sun is better for the free power dice.

Where I think the super scrolls will be best is with the bubble boosts. Soulblight, Timewarp, Speed of Light or other similar spells at a key time will be real gamewinners.

Shadowsinner
10-05-2011, 02:48
now an army with skull storm AND PSun will be quite terrifying indeed

Lord Inquisitor
10-05-2011, 03:12
now an army with skull storm AND PSun will be quite terrifying indeed

Agreed. Most armies would be vulnerable to one or the other. Imagine two level 4s, one death and one nehekara, one with powerscroll and one with the TK scrolls... I don't know if that's a good use of points but it pretty much guarantees being able to throw the megadeath spell that will most hurt your opponent on paper.

Trains_Get_Robbed
10-05-2011, 03:26
Agreed. Most armies would be vulnerable to one or the other. Imagine two level 4s, one death and one nehekara, one with powerscroll and one with the TK scrolls... I don't know if that's a good use of points but it pretty much guarantees being able to throw the megadeath spell that will most hurt your opponent on paper.

This is very true, and to be honest disgusting. Only a matter of time before my T.K friend discovers it.

Tarian
10-05-2011, 03:28
Considering I usually run 2 Lord mages, one with Life, one with Shadow, it'd only be fair play in return. But if I run my Magic Immune Dragon Princes, that's a lot of wasted points.

scarletsquig
10-05-2011, 07:11
Don't forget, you can use TEN dice on a spell with this thing (6 power dice + 4), they don't count as power dice. So, potential max casting total of 64 on a single spell. Fun. :P

I agree that boosted timewarp is way, way deadlier than purple sun.

Picture an army packed full of fast heavy hitters. 3 Warsphinxes, Chariots, Necropolis Knights.

Irresistible Timewarp guarantees that the entire army will be in combat on turn 2, even against gunlines that have deployed way back... or it could let you deploy way back at the start with staggered units to counter an enemies purple sun trick.

Stack Smiting or Cursed Blades on top of that using a power scroll on another priest and you've got an absolutely sick combination that will cut through anything.

Rosstifer
10-05-2011, 07:17
now an army with skull storm AND PSun will be quite terrifying indeed

Too a few armies, yes, but my Warriors of Chaos will shrug their shoulders at both and continue to smash face. With Beastmen I'd be a bit more concerned, but with average initiative and decent toughness, more often than not buffed by Wildform, it's not a massive concern. PSun has to be one of the most overrated spells ever written. It ruined a few peoples days when it first came out, but be honest, there are vastly better spells. Skull Storm is just plain "Meh".

Spiney Norman
10-05-2011, 07:30
you could.. but you don't have the tools to easily bring a high liche priest into position for such a spell (like a flying mount), unless you fire it at the enemy head on and suffer the consequences of the miscast. And even if you did, this fun little one-time joke costs you 255 points, not to mention having 2 lvl4's is rather pointless because they have to share limited powerpool between them.



A flying mount? You mean like the cloak of dunes?


Which my Chaos Warriors laugh at, as do any of my three Elf armies, my mate's Skaven army, my other mate's Daemon army, etc.; shall I continue? I myself would then laugh that I'm facing a rather lacklustre lore compared to what I could have been facing.

Clearly the fact that a purple sun bomb wouldn't work against elf armies means I should never use it against Lizardmen, dwarfs or other undead... I love the fact that people assume others are so stupid as to use a given tactic against armies it would fail against as well as armies it would wipe out utterly. The lore of death is by no means limited to PSX in its effectiveness, against elves/Chaos try irresistible Fate of Bajuna against the arch mage/Prince/Sorceror/chaos lord

ihavetoomuchminis
10-05-2011, 08:34
OR soulblight. And against elves, i wouldn't use purple sun. I would use the 6th spell of the Khemri Lore. S4 impact hit to everyone hit by a big template? Go go.

And with 2 powerscrolls, the amount of possible combos is huge.

Powerscrolled powered up soulblight + Powerscrolled powered up 6th khemri spell, p. ex.

The bearded one
10-05-2011, 08:54
A flying mount? You mean like the cloak of dunes?

That's only 10 inch though, so not very useful and a skeleta steed would nearly accomplish the same. As opposed to those dark elves or vampires that go about 20" in the first turn this combo will only be used after several turns and takes some doing to get into a prime position. The cloak of dunes would cost you yet another 50 pts. That's somewhere in the neighbourhood of 300 pts.

Spiney Norman
10-05-2011, 09:48
That's only 10 inch though, so not very useful and a skeleta steed would nearly accomplish the same. As opposed to those dark elves or vampires that go about 20" in the first turn this combo will only be used after several turns and takes some doing to get into a prime position. The cloak of dunes would cost you yet another 50 pts. That's somewhere in the neighbourhood of 300 pts.

I think we really need to get over the "TK can't march" thing, its totally not the end of tha game. While it clearly is a major weakness, there are ways to minimise its impact and doesn't by any means make the army unplayable.

Rhellion
10-05-2011, 12:40
Nefarra's will replace the power scroll on a second level 4 with Tomb Kings. You won't see both in the same army in competitive lists. Or if you do, your opponent is willing to sacrifice his Heirophant and let his army crumble. Poor choice. The better choice is to have Nefarra's on your second level 4 (at point levels that support it) and the Earthing Rod on your Heirophant. Miscast on the big guy, and your entire army could crumble.

The bearded one
10-05-2011, 18:30
I think we really need to get over the "TK can't march" thing, its totally not the end of tha game. While it clearly is a major weakness, there are ways to minimise its impact and doesn't by any means make the army unplayable.

I'm stumped.. there was a bunch of guys in the TK expected tier topic griping about their inability to march ( and unreliability of magic phase to allow them to move ), but I wasn't one of those :) In fact it was not one of my concerns at all, because Tk still charge as fast as everybody else and they have entombed units to deal with warmachines if they're worried they will get shot at more due to their slowness in moving across the table.

However this particular combo lacks viability due to the lack of marching and it will take possibly 2 turns to get the wizard into position for the magic vortex, and we know that he'll be a prime target :) The lack of marching isn't a big deal for anything else but just this specific combo is a lot more lackluster than those vampire, daemon or dark elf abuses. That is a good thing.

scruffyryan
10-05-2011, 18:38
Yknow, just because the unit cant fire down the flank of a line easily doesn't mean that firing a skullstorm down the front end of a deep brick isn't a great use of casting dice.

Lord Inquisitor
10-05-2011, 18:40
Don't forget, you can use TEN dice on a spell with this thing (6 power dice + 4), they don't count as power dice. So, potential max casting total of 64 on a single spell. Fun. :P
Of course once you get to 7 it doesn't really matter as you are guaranteed to get a double... ;)


OR soulblight. And against elves, i wouldn't use purple sun. I would use the 6th spell of the Khemri Lore. S4 impact hit to everyone hit by a big template? Go go.

And with 2 powerscrolls, the amount of possible combos is huge.

Powerscrolled powered up soulblight + Powerscrolled powered up 6th khemri spell, p. ex.
Right, I actually think Soulblight is a vastly more powerful spell in general that Purple Sun - because it works on anyone. I have absolutely won games by pushing through a max-power Soulblight at a critical moment.


Nefarra's will replace the power scroll on a second level 4 with Tomb Kings. You won't see both in the same army in competitive lists. Or if you do, your opponent is willing to sacrifice his Heirophant and let his army crumble. Poor choice. The better choice is to have Nefarra's on your second level 4 (at point levels that support it) and the Earthing Rod on your Heirophant. Miscast on the big guy, and your entire army could crumble.
True. The risk is relatively low, though, only 1 in 12 of the Heirophant actually dying.

In any case, certainly for tournaments, the powerscroll is typically banned and it's pretty bad form in friendly games too.

EDMM
10-05-2011, 18:45
Do the +4 dice added from the item count for the "doubles" needed to get IF?

Lord Inquisitor
10-05-2011, 19:07
Do the +4 dice added from the item count for the "doubles" needed to get IF?

It's a bit ambigious. However, even though they're not "power dice" it does say "a roll of any double when casting a spell using [the bonus dice] will cause irresistible force (and a miscast)"

The fact that it says any double when using the bonus dice to me suggests any double.

I don't really understand why they're not counted as power dice in the first place though. It seems superflous. You could remove that line and there'd be no ambiguity.

scruffyryan
10-05-2011, 19:15
Because if you have 12, and throw 1 or 2 at a spell with the scroll, you couldn't add the dice, now you can.

Siphon
10-05-2011, 19:16
I'm assuming they don't want them counting as power dice so that this is a way to use more then 12. If you roll double sixes this item would be useless to cast the first spell if they counted as PD. Just a guess anyway.

Edit: damn ninjas

Lord Inquisitor
10-05-2011, 19:20
Huh, fair enough. I would have thought it easier if that was what was meant to say "these don't count towards the power limit" but you have a point.

scruffyryan
10-05-2011, 19:21
It also means certain abilities and items can't mess with the dice. Tendrils of tzeentch for example. I think thats the one that lets a chaos player reroll a power or dispel die.

The bearded one
10-05-2011, 19:25
Yknow, just because the unit cant fire down the flank of a line easily doesn't mean that firing a skullstorm down the front end of a deep brick isn't a great use of casting dice.

It sure can be, it's just not an abuseable or overpowered combo, which is a good thing.

Lord Inquisitor
10-05-2011, 19:33
It also means certain abilities and items can't mess with the dice. Tendrils of tzeentch for example. I think thats the one that lets a chaos player reroll a power or dispel die.

You got me thinking, per the new FAQ I've just thought of one VERY important restriction - these bonus dice do NOT prevent a loss of concentration. I.e. if you had a level 4, and used one dice from the pool, you'd have to roll that one dice separately because on a 1-2 on that dice, the spell would fail.


Q: Do bonus power dice, which are added to those taken from the
power pool when a Wizard casts a spell, count when working out if
a spell fails due to the Not Enough Power rule? (p32)
A: Yes, regardless of when these dice are added. The
exception to this rule is that it does not include any dice that
are secially stated as not being power dice (such as Night
Goblin’s Magic Mushroom dice).

So even if you met the casting value, the spell would fail. So it'd be important to roll the power dice separately.

Bit odd though. That FAQ has just raised more questions. What happens if you get a loss of concentration and an Irrisistible Force in the same roll (entirely possible in the above scenario)? I guess IF take precidence.

Tarian
10-05-2011, 19:39
I'd actually say Loss of Concentration would take precedence, due to no wizard being strong enough to cast the spell on a 1 or 2, regardless of bonuses.

Cxt
11-05-2011, 13:59
Agreed, if you lost concentration, then the spell never went off. IF is in effect when the spell goes off. That's my take on it at least.

The bearded one
11-05-2011, 19:13
It's a bit like with the Book of Hoeth where you get IF on doubles. Nice that you rolled 2 4's but if you don't make the casting value it still won't go off.


Quite nice that on a 1 or 2 on the powerdice Neferra's scrolls won't work, that certainly balances out any abuse. 1 in 3 chance of failing right on that dicerol.

Maoriboy007
11-05-2011, 22:55
So the real title of the thread should be "Neferra's Scrolls Power Scroll minus?" :angel:

Lord Inquisitor
12-05-2011, 00:22
So the real title of the thread should be "Neferra's Scrolls Power Scroll minus?" :angel:

Not really. It's still crazy good. Even if IF doesn't overrule loss of concentration (which I doubt, never seen anyone play it that way ever), you only need 3 dice from the pool to make that a non-issue. Which you're probably adding anyway, a level 2 is still using 4 dice, even a level 4 only loses concentration on a double 1 - and you can circumvent that by using 3 dice (and it makes IF a certainty, another plus over the powerscroll). It's still a powerscroll with 2-4 power dice built in.

Esco Thomson
12-05-2011, 02:51
Don't disagree with the overall point, but you need to slide the bar. On anything you rated as roughly equivalent, purple sun is better for the free power dice.

Where I think the super scrolls will be best is with the bubble boosts. Soulblight, Timewarp, Speed of Light or other similar spells at a key time will be real gamewinners.

Agreed.

I just had a recent game that was Mighty Scroll + Boosted Timewarped...

That is where the money is at for me most games. I have truly found that packing it is great just because you can fire it off when it is needed, and with Lores like Light or Nehekhara there is no shortage of situational buffs, and you just choose what you need at that point, and fire it off.

Or you can just pack both the PScroll and the Mighty Scroll.

Skywave
12-05-2011, 03:45
I can say it does almost 4x more damage to even elite elves (it'll massacre the average HE build with swordmasters and spearmen). It'll butcher skaven, dealing large amounts of damage (around 50% more). It'll butcher marauders and even deal more damage to 3+ save warriors of chaos, so no, it isn't just better against no armour troops. I don't think that's "occasionally". Skullstorm is at least as good as Psun, on average, at killing infantry. Now, Psun is good against war machines, making it useful against Empire and it does regain you powerdice, but Skullstorm is not to be sniffed at.

To be fair, if there's an army that don't need the help of magic to take care or war machines, it's the TK. We have more units to deal with those threat than we can shake a stick at, so we can, and should, concentrate on using our magic elsewhere. Your analysis of the Skullstorm spell is interesting too, you make it looks like it isn't as bad as I though, I might keep it if I ever roll it to try it out :)