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Xhalax
31-03-2006, 17:37
Can Space Marines give their power armour a limited amount of power (ie to move around easily) from their own bodies via the neural links in the black carapce?

TheSonOfAbbadon
31-03-2006, 17:48
I doubt it, they're not meant for prolonged warfare, but for short, sharp and critical strikes at the enemy.

Sojourner
31-03-2006, 17:48
I doubt it very much. The power output of neurones compared to the power output required to move what is effectively a small tank is...well, silly.

Xhalax
31-03-2006, 18:04
I'm not meaning like for stomping around killing people. But more for if for some reason their power pack is broken or damaged....or even if they're in the fortress monstary where some might still have their power armour on...but possibly not their back packs (I'm sure I've read a novel where the marines don't have their back packs on. I think it was Angels of Darkenss....while they're in transit. Plus I believe that the Blood Angels in BloodQuest are without the back packs while they're resting).

Charax
31-03-2006, 18:15
I'm sorry, where is the background saying MIUs generate power? Any power? At all? I'm sure that power armour probably has some capacitors that can be charged from the pack for emergency use, but the neural links would have nothing to do with it, any more than a remote control can power my TV.

El_Machinae
31-03-2006, 18:26
There are probably charged batteries in the armour that can run for a time.

In an emergency situtation, I'd be more inclined to believe that the suit would give energy to the marine (somehow, maybe by providing the current to beat the heart or whatever) to keep the Marine alive in desperate situations.

Pilgrim
31-03-2006, 21:03
Nope, there's no way that the energy requirements of power armour could be met by bodily current. Human bodies do not put out that much free voltage.

Like El Machinae says, there are almost certainly batteries inside the armour for just such a situation, these would provide a few hours of endurance. As for the in-transit thing; during transport Astartes are able to plug into power points within their vehicles to keep the armour fully charged.
If they are in their home monastery they are not going to be wearing their armour much. When they do it will be for training purposes, and so I would expect them to be wearing their power pack if they were in armour, since this is their full battle kit.
If they have to go for more than their battery time in combat for whatever reason then they would have to discard their armour. Given that they are a surgical strike force, and thus should take at most a couple of hours (and then only for really big tasks like clearing an entire comms outpost, or similar) I cannot see them really being in a combat situation long enough to drain their reserve batteries. They should be extracted and back at base long before then. Once the mission is over it is a simple task to replace the power pack.
This limited endurance may be one of the reasons that the scout corps of most chapters is equipped with carapace armour. Being unpowered it is far better suited to prolonged field operation, which fits with the role of the scout units as snipers, infiltrators and so on, all tasks which require extended operations.

Adrian

Avenging Dentist
31-03-2006, 22:13
I doubt it's actually necessary for a marine to give his armor power in the first place if the backpack power source is destroyed. Marines can still move around without power to their armor, though they won't be winning any races. The biggest thing they'd lose would be comms and in-helmet targeting systems, if these use the backpack for power. Power weapons and power fists probably have an independent power source (you don't need power armor to use these), so they wouldn't be affected.

For non-combat situations, it probably depends on the chapter. Ultramarines certainly don't wear power armor all the time, since Uriel Ventris and Pasanius wear some kind of toga on a few occasions in the novels. Other chapters might require armor to be worn except when sleeping/cleaning it to build up strength.

Since power armor doesn't appear to "lock up" when not supplied with power, it's probably not too big a deal...

Kage2020
31-03-2006, 22:25
I'd have to agree with a 'no' on supplying the power for AAPA from their own bodies energy supplies. Admittedly, BI are describing Marines as 'superheroes', so maybe they will let it happen... For me, though, 11kW (my estimate) is a tad too much. ;)

As for a redundant battery/capacitor in case of failure of the main power unit (a radiosotope thermal generator, for me), I have that with enough power for 8 hours at full capacity, i.e. powerful the neuro-muscular fibre bundles. With that said, you have to remember that I argue that the greater majority of the strength of a Marine comes from the armour, in opposition to the (broken! ;)) game mechanics from the Inquisitor wargame.

Kage

damz451
01-04-2006, 00:31
hamster and a wheel could power a suit easily

Kage2020
01-04-2006, 01:54
Erm. Okay. Errr... thank you? ;)

Kage

TheSonOfAbbadon
01-04-2006, 11:27
A hamster in a wheel would provide enough power to make a finger twitch slighty.

I think we're all agreed that a power armour suit would have batteries in the back pack along with backup-power or a generator, and that a space marine can't power a uit by himself.

Gotreksbrother
01-04-2006, 11:35
I wonder how Captain Shrike of the Raven Guard managed this power armour issue with his marines in the operation that kept them several months (or was it years??) behind Ork lines...
Or How they managed this issue in the Horus Heresy where marines could fight prolonged sieges (Battle for Terra...)...

anybody know about this?

cheers, GB

ankellagung
01-04-2006, 11:50
Their backpacks contain generators that can keep the marine going indefinitely, this discussion is as to what happens if that breaks.

TheSonOfAbbadon
01-04-2006, 11:55
I guess, if it breaks, then they would have either a back-up generator or batteries to keep them going.

Philip S
01-04-2006, 12:29
Can Space Marines give their power armour a limited amount of power (ie to move around easily) from their own bodies via the neural links in the black carapce?
Depends on the technology used, if the Neuro-Fibre Bundles (NFBs) contract under electrical power then it may prove difficult, however going way back in time to RT era. there is mention of ‘Sucrosol’ a white synthetic blood (think Bishop for Aliens) used in robots and ‘Hydroplastics ‘(waterplastics? Formable muscles?) which seem to be the base of NFB and there is no mention of electricity.

If NFB are biological (or some form of biological type system) and the back pack power plant is mainly used for reprocessing waste products, and assuming (always dangerous) the marine and armour are highly intergraded in a symbiotic way, then it could be….

That a damaged backpack doesn’t stop the marine, the sugars already stored in the body/ armour continue to supply the ‘power’, however the backpack is no longer reprocessing waster so it will build up in the system.

I would imagine it would be like fighting holding your breath, the marine with a damaged pack would have a very short amount of time to get out before the waste products in the system become too great, lactic acid not only from his own muscles but from the suit will cause pain, but carbon-dioxide and oxygen consumption from both marine and suit means far less time to get out.

Gone in 60 seconds?

Philip

TheSonOfAbbadon
01-04-2006, 12:42
I seriously doubt NFB are biological.

Philip S
01-04-2006, 13:16
I seriously doubt NFB are biological.
Do you have a reason for you doubt or is it personal preference?

‘Electrically Motivated Fibre Bundles’ also RT contract under the influence of an electrical charge, but it does not say in the text that they are powered by electricity - this could also be said of almost all biological systems, that they are ‘electrically motivated’.

The electrical motivation may be provided by the marine via the black carapace (the black carapace being a post-RT edition) via normal nerve firing, the power to the fibre coming from ‘Sucrosol’ not electricity.

It makes for a far more complex system than ‘electric muscles’, but also it makes for a safer, more efficient, robust and possibly self-repairing system (I would guess ;) )

Philip

Pilgrim
01-04-2006, 14:27
Whenever I have seen mention of the fibre bundles that are used in power armour, titans and similar I have assumed them to be basically the same as myomer muscles in Battletech. Some kind of polymer which contracts under an electric charge to replicate the effect of biological musculature in an artificial product.

Not having been able to replace my now missing copy of Rogue Trader I can't look up the section on sucrosol and artificial muscles, but iirc the sucrosol did not provide nourishment or power to them.

Even Bishop from Alien needed external power, given that he gets plugged into a socket by Ripley in Alien 3. This would suggest that, even if this is the model for power armours motivating fibres, they are designed to run from a powerpack.

I can't see how a biological system would have an advantage over the artificial myomers that seem to be the technology that is used by the Imperium. A biological system runs the risk of necrosis and infection unless it is kept maintained to a high standard. The artifical system, on the other hand, is easier to repair from damage for this reason, as well as not sufering the toxic waste buildup if the backpack were damaged, since in this case the backpack is simply the primary power supply, rather than an essential filtration plant. Thus the biological system would actually seem to be more fragile than the artificial one, which leads me to believe more strongly that Imperial technology uses myomer bundles to provide movement for humanoid armours and combat chassis.

Adrian

Philip S
01-04-2006, 15:04
Whenever I have seen mention of the fibre bundles that are used in power armour, titans and similar I have assumed them to be basically the same as myomer muscles in Battletech. Some kind of polymer which contracts under an electric charge to replicate the effect of biological musculature in an artificial product.
Not an unreasonable assumption, and it may well be the case. Tough 40K has always had a rather ‘bio’ feel to complex technology even robots in early background had the protein bio-plastic cortex.


Not having been able to replace my now missing copy of Rogue Trader I can't look up the section on sucrosol and artificial muscles, but iirc the sucrosol did not provide nourishment or power to them.
This is a direct quote from page 267
"Sucrosol: is the usually abbreviation for Sucrose based solution. It is a synthetic blood designed to feed cultured bio-tissues by means of osmotic pressure. Sucrosol is used on all mechanisms incorporating bio-engineered parts, including robots. It is usually white."


Even Bishop from Alien needed external power, given that he gets plugged into a socket by Ripley in Alien 3. This would suggest that, even if this is the model for power armours motivating fibres, they are designed to run from a powerpack.
My Bishop quote was purely to imagine the look of ‘white blood’, more as a visual than a basis for function.


I can't see how a biological system would have an advantage over the artificial myomers that seem to be the technology that is used by the Imperium. A biological system runs the risk of necrosis and infection unless it is kept maintained to a high standard. The artifical system, on the other hand, is easier to repair from damage for this reason, as well as not sufering the toxic waste buildup if the backpack were damaged, since in this case the backpack is simply the primary power supply, rather than an essential filtration plant.
The Imperium loves biology, necrosis won’t happen in a sealed unit, a biological system heals itself and would last a while (50+ years no repairs due to wear?).

It can be repaired with grafts and more bio-cultures and getting the biology to do all the work means you avoid build these NFB, you can grow them and graft them (can you imagine trying to wire up a NFBs into a suits system!? Much rather graft and spray/ inject chemicals).

Nothing wrong with Battletech tech, it just that 40K seems to be different and advocates a different type of technology.

Philip

Kage2020
01-04-2006, 15:55
Despite Philip's reminder of sucrosol, I'm going to work on the principle that NFB's are not biologically-driven in the case of AAPA. The 'stacked atomic chain' (read: radioisotope generator) works for the main power source, with a backup 'battery' being reasonble.

As to wangling in everything to the same core explanation? Meh.

Kage

Pilgrim
01-04-2006, 15:57
Hmmm, that Rogue Trader quote would certainly seem to suggest a greater usage of biological components than I had previously thought.

The one thing to consider is how quickly muscle fibre will grow. It may be that it would be quicker to manufacture it than wait for a biological system to grow itself to a finished state. On the other hand, the widespread manufacture of servitors suggests that the Imperium is pretty advanced at growing biological components from scratch.

I still have trouble accepting it as a military technology though, since a breach of the sterile containment would seem to be potentially dangerous to the muscles. Combat damage to a cyborg system would require medical attention as well as mechanical (requiring a greater logistical burden). While it would be low maintenance in normal conditions, in combat situations it would appear to have a greater maintenance/repair requirement.

However, the properties you mention would seem to make this kind of thing perfect for civilian applications, where the risk of damage is much lower. In these cases it would provide a low maintenance, low wear and thus cheap technology. Industrial exoskeletons, ciivilian robots and similar devices would benefit, and would to my mind be the primary users of these biological systems. Military units seem to be better suited with technologies that have less exacting standards as relate to sterility.

Adrian

Philip S
01-04-2006, 16:46
Hi Kage2020, while I was reading this stuff in the back of the book I noticed the bit on ‘Electrographs’;
Page270
“An electrograph reacts with the brain to alter a creature’s memory, personality and knowledge. Many of the Imperium’s technological secrets are passed on by this means, and it is certainly a quick and easy way to learn how to speak new languages, operate machinery etc.”
Which ties in with my Ad-Mec and implants – I guess it must have been in the back of my mind all along, I just haven’t read it in 20 years! ;)


The one thing to consider is how quickly muscle fibre will grow. It may be that it would be quicker to manufacture it than wait for a biological system to grow itself to a finished state.
The NFBs may be ‘cloned’, and they may grow loads of them seeding new ones every years, if it takes a long time for them to grow say several years to mature, then the harvest every years/ month as need be. I suppose it like supplying wine, wine takes a few years to mature, but they plant grapes every year.


I still have trouble accepting it as a military technology though, since a breach of the sterile containment would seem to be potentially dangerous to the muscles
If a projectile breaches marine armour it is also going to affect the marine - suit isolates damage limb, both the marine’s and its own?

I imagine the NFB biology is going to be suitably advanced, and may be fundamentally different to normal earth based biology, and it may not be affected by germs in the same way as ‘flesh’. Having said that if they use a sugar, then it can’t be that different, there again sugar is a preservative (jam) and so germs may have trouble dealing with Sucrosol due to high sugar concentrations?

Perhaps the NFB biology isn’t working to produce power in the same way our muscles do, it may be biology but a very ‘alien’ biology. Sugar is a good energy source, and contains a lot of calories, so it would be quite a powerful system however it works.

Another advantage is that the power can be produced locally via conversion, which is a benefit, because then the armour designers can include a ‘sugar layer’ (like fat in humans) to be the fuel local and not rely on the back pack for power (in case of damage). The only backup as such would be a ‘cache tank’ of oxygen to keep everything running and enough reserve space to back up waste, or dump it.

In this way a damaged backpack, even if complete destroyed only means the removal of recycling facilities, and the marine may still be good to go for a few hours (instead of months with the pack).

Philip

Kage2020
01-04-2006, 16:52
Erm, must have missed where this applies, but I'm always game for an interesting discussion.


...while I was reading this stuff in the back of the book I noticed the bit on ‘Electrographs’...
Interesting. I am, however, not going to use this to jump on your theory with regards to implants. Why? Merely because I find the alternatives far more interesting. Indeed, I think that this can be entirely integrated into those interesting theories without wangling in Iron Men.


Anyway, as to NFBs...? Sucrosol used with the NFBs is fine, just not as the power source. Then again, in the universe of the Inquisitor wargame, who cares? It's all the Marine, somewhat tediously. The armour barely does anything and, indeed, one has to wonder why they ever bother.

Kage

Philip S
01-04-2006, 17:05
Erm, must have missed where this applies, but I'm always game for an interesting discussion.
The reason the Ad-Mec control and continue to effectively enforce that control of all the Imperium’s higher technology (bit off topic ;))

Philip

Kage2020
01-04-2006, 17:14
Ah well, that's OffT. Personally I'm not going to ascribe it to specialist implant technology, since that just reinforces some of the quirks. As an integrated part of something bigger, though? That's more reasonable. Perhaps you would care to look at the ASP approach to the adeptus mechanicus and see where it could be integrated?

Kage

Philip S
05-04-2006, 14:25
As an integrated part of something bigger, though? That's more reasonable. Perhaps you would care to look at the ASP approach to the adeptus mechanicus and see where it could be integrated?
Do you have a link?

Philip