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Citadel97501
14-05-2011, 06:54
I have been using the Mark of Nurgle and the Banner of Rage, on my Chaos Knights since 7th edition and I was noticing they seem to have removed the FAQ stating that the Mark of Khorne doesn't work on Steeds?

I could be missing it, but I wanted to check, as it will save my banner slot?

Yrrdead
14-05-2011, 07:41
There isn't a concrete answer to this. And it has been discussed multiple times on this forum. I'll try to find some linky links using the search function....

I'm of the opinion that MoK doesn't affect mounts.


Edit:

Followup to Massive thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282293&highlight=Mark+Khorne)
Recent thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301300&highlight=Mark+Khorne)
3 more pages of argument (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=285061&highlight=Mark+Khorne)

All found on the first page of a search. Amazing :)

theunwantedbeing
14-05-2011, 11:43
We'll have to wait another 3ish months before GW bothers with another FAQ.
So I'de advise you ask your opponent about it, or don't take those things for at least another 3ish months.

Trustey
18-05-2011, 20:25
When I think of a Juggernaut as a Khorne mount it seems almost common sense that it would be frenzied.

Eta
18-05-2011, 21:24
When I think of a Juggernaut as a Khorne mount it seems almost common sense that it would be frenzied.

Just that it isn't - the rulebook is very clear in this case ;).

EDMM
18-05-2011, 22:08
Characters and their mount are treated as a single model for all purposes.

Mark of Khorne purchased for a character gives Frenzy to the entire model.

FestHest
18-05-2011, 23:22
It may be because infantry have gained some bonuses that GW thought it approiate to removed some of the nerf for mounts.
Well just a thought anyhow..

geldedgoat
19-05-2011, 09:10
As Yrrdead already said, it's been discussed many, many, MANY times. Unfortunately, of those many, many, MANY times, no real answer other than "discuss it beforehand or dice it off" has surfaced. By RAW and by RAI, there's no clear answer, and anyone who says differently has either not heard all the relevant arguments or is just being disingenuous.

Eta
19-05-2011, 09:39
Characters and their mount are treated as a single model for all purposes.

Mark of Khorne purchased for a character gives Frenzy to the entire model.

As I said earlier, this is the only thing about the Mark of Khorne that is well explained in the rulebook. A character that is frenzied only confers the Berserk Rage part of the rule to his mount, not the extra attack one.

Harwammer
19-05-2011, 14:12
I've got to point out that the faq saying mounts don't get frenzy was for the 6th ed HoC army book under the 7th ed rules (the current faq is on the 7th ed armybook in 8th ed rules so the old faq is completely irrelevant).

The reason for the old FAQ? The 6th ed army book included a note referring to the 6th ed frenzy rules. As there was a discrepancy between the 6th and 7th ed frenzy rules the faq was needed to tell players which way to play it.

The problem is the current rules tell you what to do when only the rider part of the model has the frenzy rule or when only the mount part of the model has the frenzy rule but fails to thoroughly tell us what to do if the entire model (or even unit) has the frenzy rule.

This is definitely a talk to opponent/don't use until FAQed issue.

EDMM
19-05-2011, 14:52
As I said earlier, this is the only thing about the Mark of Khorne that is well explained in the rulebook. A character that is frenzied only confers the Berserk Rage part of the rule to his mount, not the extra attack one.


Mark of Khorne
A model with the Mark of Khorne is subject to Frenzy.
Warriors of Chaos army book, page 110.


A character and his mount are treated as a single character model for all rules purposes, except as noted below.
Warhammer rulebook page 104.


We assume that special rules that apply to a ridden monster do not normally also apply to a character riding it and vice versa (with the same exceptions that apply to cavalry models, which are listed on page 82). Likewise ridden monsters are still monsters, and benefit from the rules for monsters as well.
Warhammer rulebook page 105.


Cavalry And Special Rules
Unless otherwise noted, special rules that apply to the mount do not normally also apply to the rider, and vice versa. There are, however, a few exceptions:
...
If either the rider or the mount have Frenzy, then the whole model is subject to the Berserk Rage, but only the element with the Frenzy rule gains an Extra Attack.
Warhammer rulebook page 82.

Now, with all of that in mind, the Mark of Khorne does NOT apply Frenzy to only one element.

The rider and the mount are treated as a single model, and the Mark of Khorne applies Frenzy to the model.

Both elements thus gain the extra attack from Frenzy.

javgoro
19-05-2011, 15:03
Let's not kick the hornet's nest, shall we? This has been discussed to death in the afforementioned threads. Let the matter rest, please.

GodlessM
19-05-2011, 19:45
Now, with all of that in mind, the Mark of Khorne does NOT apply Frenzy to only one element.

The rider and the mount are treated as a single model, and the Mark of Khorne applies Frenzy to the model.

Both elements thus gain the extra attack from Frenzy.

You realise the last part you quoted says specifically that the mount does not the extra attack right? So you basically made a long winded post but came up with the wrong conclusions and proved Eta right.

EDMM
19-05-2011, 20:19
No. The mount does not get the extra attack when the only the RIDER HAS FRENZY.

The Mark of Khorne GIVES THE MODEL Frenzy.

The RIDER AND THE MOUNT are treated AS A SINGLE MODEL.

If Chaos characters came with the special rule "Frenzy" then mounts don't get it.

But Chaos characters don't come with "Frenzy."

They can't buy the special rule "Frenzy."

What they buy is the Mark of Khorne. The Mark of Khorne applies to the MODEL. The MODEL consists of the rider AND THE MOUNT. The Mark of Khorne provides Frenzy. The Mark of Khorne provides Frenzy TO THE RIDER AND THE MOUNT.

GodlessM
19-05-2011, 21:54
And yet this debate arises again and again so it obviously isn't as clear cut as your grace would have it :rolleyes:

EDMM
19-05-2011, 22:01
I never said it was "clear cut" at all.

I took great pains to precisely point out the rules in a specific order so as to attempt to reduce the level of complication.

I can easily see how people would be confused by it, which is why I spent effort to use the specific rulebook quotes to show my interpretation as clearly as possible.

Your attitude isn't appreciated or necessary.

Korraz
19-05-2011, 22:04
Here we go again.
The answer is, that there is no answer.

GodlessM
20-05-2011, 00:16
Here we go again.
The answer is, that there is no answer.

It would be nice if they got it right the 5th time around on the FAQ and gave us an answer though.

AMWOOD co
20-05-2011, 04:53
It would be nice if they got it right the 5th time around on the FAQ and gave us an answer though.

They're probably having as hard a time with it as we are for determining a conclusive answer (we can't get concensous, why should they?).

As for the issue itself, I used to enjoy the debate and shutting down arguements. Used to. Now it's tedious and not worth the effort (especially because of some of the interpretations I've heard, even from my own side of it).

I'll gladly point out reasons and flaws for... I think there are 4 major arguements, 2 for each conclusion. Each has gaps in the logic, ones that can only be reconciled by reading more into the words than what there is. It is because of this that I say you should decide ahead of time or consult your tournament organiser for how the issue should be resolved.

For an example, my own group is using a compromise. Khorne Khights or horsemen do not give the steed Frenzy (my give to them), but the Banner of Rage will give it to the mounts (their give to me). Still have to iron out the chariot, though (likely just the crew in the end).

AmundoClown
20-05-2011, 07:53
I agree that this is not a clear cut case.

We have established that the two are one (horsie and rider qualify as one model).

It is obscure, however, what is implied by this. Consider these interpretations:

A) The two components (rider and mount) are considered the same model, therefore, what applies to one of them also applies to the other. If one gets +1 attacks, the other also does. With Mark of Khorne the whole model is Frenzied. Conclusion: Both the rider and the mount gets A +1. Problem: if they are considered one model, how can they get one more attack EACH? If it's just you who drink a beer, you don't say you're having one beer each, do you?

B) Although there's both a rider and a mount, they are regarded as just one model. Being just one model, Mark of Khorne provides Frenzy for one, thus providing the model as a whole with +1 Attack. Problem: If the model as a whole gets +1 Attack, who gets the attack? In many cases, the rider would be both the more capable character, as well as the more significant. But there is no rule to justify who gets the extra attack, is there, apart from the fact, perhaps, that the rider is listed first on the stats chart.

My conclusion: There are strong arguments for both interpretations, thus, we can only hope that GW will make up their mind about a ruling. Rather than just tell us how many models there are, they'd better get clear on what this implies in terms of rules.

That was pretty close to the Mark, wasn't it?

theunwantedbeing
20-05-2011, 11:47
My conclusion: There are strong arguments for both interpretations, thus, we can only hope that GW will make up their mind about a ruling. Rather than just tell us how many models there are, they'd better get clear on what this implies in terms of rules.

That was pretty close to the Mark, wasn't it?

I wouldn't call them strong arguments as such, they just have lots of supporters which gives the impression of having a lot of weight.

Artinam
20-05-2011, 12:18
In the same jest, do Blood Knight mount get Frenzy, the mounts and riders are not seperatly mentioned and it simply has the Frenzy rule.

I haven't checked the new Savage Orc Boar boyz, to see if they have a similar issue.

Eta
20-05-2011, 13:31
In the same jest, do Blood Knight mount get Frenzy, the mounts and riders are not seperatly mentioned and it simply has the Frenzy rule.

I haven't checked the new Savage Orc Boar boyz, to see if they have a similar issue.

No, Blood Knight mounts are not frenzied. The Frenzy special rule is only mentioned in the knights' entry, not in the entry for the steeds.