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world in grey
15-05-2011, 10:58
OK before we start all the people who would answer the question with just use the codex your ment to for your army please politly leave now......thank you

Right I only make armys based on their fluff I don't care if they get wiped of the table it's not about winning its about the story for me, witht this in mind I want to start a salamanders army and want to know which of the many marine codexes you guys would concider using and why.

I know they are a codex chapter but fluffwise I think they should have heavy flamers and thunder hammers in the same terminator squads, squad sargents should be able to carry hammers in tactical squads and more devastator squads. oh and they can see in different light spectrums to.

With this in mind I'm thinking space wolves might make a good codex to pick a fluffy army from? wolf guard terminator squads can have a better mix of weapons, wolf guard can be armed any way you want and lead grey hunter squads, long fangs get an extra heavy weapon as apossed to codex chapters and they all have acute senses, what do you think?

Nocculum
15-05-2011, 11:02
I would actually say Grey Knights would work, the Justicar can have Hammers, and they have access to Incinerators (fire is always good!)

Excessus
15-05-2011, 11:03
So you want to use a top tier codex and is asking online for ways to shoehorn them in there fluffwise?

Son_Of_A_Horus
15-05-2011, 11:03
On the flamer side of things, you'd really want Grey Knights. Purifiers can take up to four flamers per squad of 10.
Make them troops by taking Crowe...

Just a thought if you are sticking to the fluff of Salamanders being all flamey goodness

world in grey
15-05-2011, 11:10
I would actually say Grey Knights would work, the Justicar can have Hammers, and they have access to Incinerators (fire is always good!)

did think about grey knights but I'm not keen on all the pysckic stuff being very salamander like?


So you want to use a top tier codex and is asking online for ways to shoehorn them in there fluffwise?

not bothered about how broken the codex is and how powerful the army is I only want it to represent the army I want to build and play and all the options in space wolves seemed to fit in my opinion, if i thought necrons or tua codex fit the army I wanted to build I'd suggest them so don't worry it's not about having a cheesey army that will always win

Nocculum
15-05-2011, 11:15
I'd assume you don't want to go the Codex: Space Marines & Vulkan route?

NixonAsADaemonPrince
15-05-2011, 11:17
With those criteria I'd say Space Wolves as well, they do have all the options. Maybe take an Iron Priest or two as well.

The big problems are with the HQs (None of them really fit Salamanders that well, though I suppose you could just take a Wolf Lord with ThunderHammer and Combi Flamer) and the fact the whole army has counter attack and Bolt Pistol/Close Combat weapon, which doesn't really fit the fluff.

world in grey
15-05-2011, 11:17
I'd assume you don't want to go the Codex: Space Marines & Vulkan route?

again thought about that but I really want my terminators to have hammers and heavy flamers, other option for that was dark angel deathwing squads?

AngelofSorrow
15-05-2011, 11:21
Being a codex chapter the blue book is the best. Sergeants don't have TH because it's not codex. Just because they have awesome TH and HF doesn't mean they will break codex rules. they are a codex compliant chapter the only book that represents them well is C: SM. As for seeing in many light spectrums all space marines fluff wise should have acute senses because they can all see well in darkness but they don't.
Fluff wise the only book that fits is the blue book.

Nocculum
15-05-2011, 11:22
You can always model the sergeants with Thunder Hammers but use Power Fist rules? The loss of the tank damage is hardly dramatic enough to limit yourself further.

Castigator
15-05-2011, 11:23
If max-out flamers is what you want... Counts-as-Sisters would be the way to go I suppose :D

Gatsby
15-05-2011, 11:35
Honestly, from a fluff perspective, the C:SM IS the most accurate, as mentioned, if you want just model thunder hammers to the Sergents and give them power fists. Codex chapters DONT use both assault and heavy weapons in termi squads. It would take a lot to convince me that any other codex would represent Sallies better than C:SM.

Castigator
15-05-2011, 11:44
Codex chapters DONT use both assault and heavy weapons in termi squads.

Got a source for that?

Gatsby
15-05-2011, 11:48
yea its in the C:SM book under Assault Terminators and Terminater squads.

LeonidasL
15-05-2011, 12:23
the salamanders are a codex chapter, with a preferance to short ranged firefights and flamer/melta weapons. according to older information about them, they come from a high gravity home-world making them a bit slower in reaction times to other marines (kinda stupid imo) and they also don't favour much quick movement. additionaly they are great artificiers. nothing really special in the end.
thus C:SM is the best way to represent them. If you field a little bit more flamer/melta weapons there that you would field in a typical C:SM army you got the salamander feel all right. The sallies, don't field MORE special/heavy weapons that any other codex chapter. They are just better than the others with their chosen weapons.

Ofc, you can always go and field Space Wolves with any combination of flamer/melta etc weapons and call them salamanders if that makes you feel better. 5 long fangs with multi meltas and Logan Grimnar -renamed Tu'shan- to make them move and shoot them. Or Arjac for a squad champion: a firedrake veteran, and he already comes with a hammer and anvil theme ^^

The Marshel
15-05-2011, 12:47
long fangs are pretty much auto out unless you want to use just multimeltas. salamanders being close ranged means they wont be having 36"+ fire fights across the board.

honestly, codex sm is best here, with or without vulkan. salamanders dont deviate that much from any standard codex chapter at all and i've never seen anything to suggest they mix weapons in terminator squads and frankly, if they did it would be precedent for all marine termies to have mixed weapons.

now, given your needs are fluff based and you're not looking for a gaming edge, consider replacing all powerfist in your army with thunder hammers. the idea here is that a TH is basically a powerfist with a few benefits. As long as you dont include any actually thunderhammers, you can just say all thunder hammers count as powerfist and you're good to go. you can now have both thunder hammers and heavy flamers in your termi squad and you're sergeants get "hammers".

the downside is that you'll miss out on vulkan's master crafted hammers bonus, as they're actually powerfist. you also wont be able to field any th/ss assault termies for the sake of the blanket TH = Powerfist deal. as an alternative, you could forgo thunder hammers on your "tactical" termies, allowing you to simply say all thunder hammers are power fist, except for those used by my terminators.

so yeah, if you want such small things bad enough to not use the obvious C:sm, then just give the tactical squads powerfist and model them as hammers.

Radium
15-05-2011, 12:53
honestly, codex sm is best here, with or without vulkan. salamanders dont deviate that much from any standard codex chapter at all and i've never seen anything to suggest they mix weapons in terminator squads and frankly, if they did it would be precedent for all marine termies to have mixed weapons.

They could do that using codex: armageddon. Fun times.

But OT: just use C: SM. They are very much a codex chapter, and while being able to take more thunderhammers and mix stuff in terminator squads would fit them, all of the other stuff in C:SW makes no sense at all for salamanders (counter attack, lots of CC attacks, all the wolfy stuff).

Lord-Caerolion
15-05-2011, 15:34
Yep, as Radium says, whatever extra you get in the other codexes doesn't make up for the sheer amount of stuff you get that makes no sense. Blood Angels doesn't explain the Black Rage, Space Wolves can't explain the wolf-y stuff, Black Templar doesn't fit, and Grey Knights makes no sense. Dark Angels... maybe, but you're better off just using the standard codex.

Just take the standard codex, and give your guys thunder hammers that count as power fists. To keep it continuous, do it on every model that has a hammer, so you can't be accused of breaking WYSIWYG, and can have Terminators with HF and "thunder hammers".

AlphariusOmegon20
15-05-2011, 15:40
Honestly, You'd have to amalgamate two codexes slightly together to truly get the Sallies as they should be.

C:SM works for the most part, except for Terminators. Then you have to look to the DA codex and examine Deathwing squads to see how Sallies truly use their Termies.

Sallie Termies freely mix shooty and Assault Termie weapons in the same squad. It is not unusual to see a Heavy Flamer in the same squad as a Thunder Hammer/ Storm Shield and is, in fact, quite common for them to do so. Ward obviously did not do his homework on the Sallies. (That is an issue for another thread however.)

You'd have to add the option to the Deathwing of Dedicated Transports so they could have the Land Raider variants, but other than that, Sallie Fire Drakes almost match perfectly with Deathwing.

In closing, I'd say 90% C:SM, 10% C: DA.

Polaria
15-05-2011, 15:55
Use DA codex. Deathwing allows nicely tuned up termies and everything else is pretty much like normal marines. SW are just too different in so many ways its not even cool...

Havock
15-05-2011, 16:05
With those criteria I'd say Space Wolves as well, they do have all the options. Maybe take an Iron Priest or two as well.

The big problems are with the HQs (None of them really fit Salamanders that well, though I suppose you could just take a Wolf Lord with ThunderHammer and Combi Flamer) and the fact the whole army has counter attack and Bolt Pistol/Close Combat weapon, which doesn't really fit the fluff.

On the other hand, by taking more grey hunters you can focus on the flamers/melta stuff as well as the "up close"-way the sallies like.

Wolves are fine, just stay away from TWC and the like :p

Nat B
15-05-2011, 16:06
Codex Dark Angels can do much of what you are asking.

Mixed weapon Terminator Squads

1 Techmarine per vehicle, allows you to have your artificers

DA Company Veteran Squads can take meltas/multimeltas/flamers/thunder hammers and allows you to scratch your power armoured thunder hammer itch


However I would personally use the vanilla codex

terradax
15-05-2011, 16:11
What's wrong with the SM codex with Vulkan?
That's what I would go for anyway.

AlphariusOmegon20
15-05-2011, 16:34
What's wrong with the SM codex with Vulkan?
That's what I would go for anyway.

Because it does not accurately portray the Fire Drakes as they should be.

That being said, Dark Angels doesn't portray the rest of the chapter well either.

As I said, you'd almost have to meld the two together to get it right.

ruralguard
15-05-2011, 17:07
Have you considered Codex Armageddon?

Obviously not a current Codex, but definitely meets the fluff - on terminators, lots of flamer / melta weapons (inc. Tank upgrade and special librarian powers), few fast units - and if this is just for friendly games, it might work.

Col. Tartleton
15-05-2011, 17:17
Dark Angels are perfect. Tons of terminators, tons of Techmarines, some Fearless units. Terminators as troops and Vets as Elites. Stormshields and Thunderhammers with a Multimelta and a flamer. Then have Terminators as troops with a Heavy Flamer, Thunderhammers and Stormshields. Boom. Winning. Techmarines don't count toward FOC. It's all good. Belial, 2 squads of terminators, 3 squads of vets, a couple land raiders and techmarines and you've got the Firedrakes.

Just like Iron Hands are good as Space Wolves. The Blood Angels are good for Raven Guard depending on how you want to play them, either as stealthy geurillas or more shock and awe commandos, with the latter being appropriate as BA and the former as Ultramarines.

peterjameslewis711
15-05-2011, 17:49
Im sorry i know people said the grey knights codex but NO, salamanders all armed with power swords, really, NO.
The normal vanilla dex lets you take Vulkan, makes all flamers, hammers twinlinked/master crafted, just take 2 small 5 man units of tacticle marines and then 3 units of sternguard all armed with combi flamers, may not be what your looking for "fluff" wise, but sadly its not how the games done otherwise if we kept it to the guardman standard we would all be playing hollywood 40k where you have 1 super 5 man tacticle squad and a rhino against a 1k guard army.
I had a similar conversation with someone who wanted to use the blood angels codex as a count as 1k sons codex, which to me was like "ok it makes a lil sense but its probably easier to use the chaos codex as its easier for players, i mean if you wanted to run demiurg as marines then fine, ok as it doesnt have a codex thats cool, but not for an already available chapter.

LegionX
15-05-2011, 22:02
As many others have alredy said: Use C:SM. Use Vulkan.

If your biggest problem is the lack of TH sergeants and TH/heavy flamer Terminators, just do what's been suggested and count all TH in your army as powerfists. Not 100% accurate, but better than trying to get Salamanders to fit into a different Codex. The rules differece between THs and PFs isn't that big anyway.

EDIT:

I have even more trouble with my Iron Hands. Where are my Dreadnought HQ choices? Where are my Terminator Sergeants? Where's my Chaplain/Techmarine Iron Father? I'll have to look into using C:SW, as that covers the first 2 problems. I recon Grey Hunters would make pretty good 'bionic-ed up, ruthless' IH Tactical Squads. Also, the IH Clan structure is more similar to the SW Great Company structure than it is to Codex Chapter Companies :chrome:

Lexington
15-05-2011, 23:48
not bothered about how broken the codex is and how powerful the army is I only want it to represent the army I want to build and play and all the options in space wolves seemed to fit in my opinion
Well, aside from WS3 Assault & Bike Squads, special rules like Counter-Attack and Heightened Senses, a lack of separate Chaplain/Apothecary choices, Combat Squads, Thunderfire Cannons, Landspeeder Storms, Ironclade Dreadnoughts, a Master of the Forge or the only Salamanders Special Character currently in the game? Sure. The Space Wolves fit just fine. :p

Really, regardless of your motivations regarding the relative power of the army, you're ignoring an awful lot of established background in order to get a single "thematic" weapon option. There's been a lot of this lately in the 40Kosphere, and it drives me slightly bonkers.

ehlijen
16-05-2011, 00:44
For the terminators, get a captain with TH+StSh and join them to a regular terminator squad and enjoy your HF with a side of TH.

You can do that in pretty much any SM codex.

Spyral
16-05-2011, 01:05
So you want to use a top tier codex and is asking online for ways to shoehorn them in there fluffwise?

Yes as actually BA are better to represent salamanders with the ability to get TWO flamers or two meltaguns in a troops choice... the assaultyness doesn't fit though..

AlphariusOmegon20
16-05-2011, 01:11
Yes as actually BA are better to represent salamanders with the ability to get TWO flamers or two meltaguns in a troops choice... the assaultyness doesn't fit though..

Not only does that not fit, but the whole fast vehicle thing doesn't fit either.

Vaktathi
16-05-2011, 01:16
OK before we start all the people who would answer the question with just use the codex your ment to for your army please politly leave now......thank you

Right I only make armys based on their fluff I don't care if they get wiped of the table it's not about winning its about the story for me, witht this in mind I want to start a salamanders army and want to know which of the many marine codexes you guys would concider using and why.

I know they are a codex chapter but fluffwise I think they should have heavy flamers and thunder hammers in the same terminator squads, squad sargents should be able to carry hammers in tactical squads and more devastator squads. oh and they can see in different light spectrums to.
Codex: Space Marines. Yes really. Aside from a preference for melta/flamer weaponry, they are a rather Codex chapter. That book has everything you need to make a 100% perfectly fluffy army.




With this in mind I'm thinking space wolves might make a good codex to pick a fluffy army from? wolf guard terminator squads can have a better mix of weapons, wolf guard can be armed any way you want and lead grey hunter squads, long fangs get an extra heavy weapon as apossed to codex chapters and they all have acute senses, what do you think?Sorry, but it really does sound here like you just want to use C:SW because it's well, simply more powerful, but not necessarily fluffier. Salamanders have never been described as fielding *more* guns or *more* devastators than other marines, just an overwhelming preference for flamers and melta weaponry over stuff like Lascannons, Missiles and Plasma guns.

Xisor
16-05-2011, 01:42
Count-as Space Wolves doesn't seem like a bad idea, to me. Given Kyme's novels, it pushes me back to just using Codex: Space Marines and 'simmering doon'. But, if you're not too fussed and want to focus on the broad-brushstroke theme of the army?

Well, count-as Space Wolves seems pretty fine by me. You can even replace every instance of 'wolf' or 'ice' (or similar) in the army with 'fire', 'anvil', 'giant lizard' etc, if you really want to hammer the point home.

@Vaktathi: That's somewhat incorrect. By ratio the Index: Astartes chapter organisation showed the Salamanders had a squad breakdown of, if memory serves, 3:2 Tacticals to Devastators. Minimal Assaults, only 6 squads of Scouts but 12 squads of Veterans. Also it's often noted as 'close range firefight' preference in addition to liking flamers/meltas. Not a huge difference, but worth adding into the discussion.

Phyros
16-05-2011, 01:56
1st Company:
12 Veteran

2nd-4th Company:
7 Tactical
3 Devastator
2 Assault

5th Company (Reserve)
8 Tactical
4 Devastator

6th Company (Reserve)
4 Tactical
8 Devastator

7th Company (Scouts)
6 Scout

Source: White Dwarf 247


I really dislike the fact the codex says a player has to eat up an HQ slot to get the special Company rules. And that took away the extra flamer. And locked in weapon options for other characters. And took away the Armory for Vet. Sergeants.

wyvirn
16-05-2011, 02:47
Well garsh, I wished that I was one of those fancy Space Marines who can just change codexes whenever they got a slightly better one. It's also a good that you are asking complete strangers to help you justify the reasoning.
Space Wolves don't work because they are either too shooty from far away or they are too close combaty, and never work in that sweet spot of close range. Blood angels focus on speedy vehicles and ferocious close combat. And GKs in PA/TA with psychic powers? Not salamandery at all.

SgtTaters
16-05-2011, 02:58
It's threads like this that makes me wish there was just one space marine codex with psychic dreads, monster riders, and heavily customizable terminators.

ehlijen
16-05-2011, 03:03
Given that the average game takes place at the demicompany level at best, Codex Space marines is more than adequate to show off the Salamander company structure: just take more tacticals than devestators than assault marines.

Most chapter differences can easily be shown by what not to try and cram into the points level of a game that won't let you take a full company anyway.

Vulkan isn't needed to make a Salamander army. More thunderhammers and extra flamers aren't needed. All that's needed is a green regular space marine army that decided to take an above average number of flamers, meltas and hammers where the choice comes up anyway and chose not to include significant numbers of Fast attack units.

a1elbow
16-05-2011, 03:22
Vulkan isn't needed to make a Salamander army. More thunderhammers and extra flamers aren't needed. All that's needed is a green regular space marine army that decided to take an above average number of flamers, meltas and hammers where the choice comes up anyway and chose not to include significant numbers of Fast attack units.

100%

There is a local player with a beautiful Green Marine army with MMs on everything he can put them on. I saw the army for the first time and thought, "what a great looking Salamander's force."

If I saw three squads of guys with MLs hiding in terrain but painted green, I'd think "why are those Wolves painted in camo?"

'Nuff said.

As other's are saying, just use the vanilla codex. Nothing else actually represents the force wide tactics Salamander's use (especially not Sisters, unless you want to try justify T3).

atraphos
16-05-2011, 03:36
From reading through codexii, I would think crossing out Grey Knights, for the army wide abundance of Power Weapons and Psychic stuff, same for Blood Angels due to black rage and fast vehicals.

Leaving Codex SM, DA or SW.

They all seem to have elements of what you are after, and also have units that don't fit at all, (though with a themed army you wouldn't be using them anyway) I guess it's a matter of figuring out which elements of the codex fits with the elements of the Sallis you want on the tabletop.

If I was to look at fielding Sallies I would be looking at Codex SM, fairly flexible with good unit choices (Hammernators, Stern/Van guard) and hq choice (vulkan), with nothing that is too far out of context for a Sallie to bring to war.

Asuron
16-05-2011, 03:48
I was under the impression Codex: Space marines represented them really well....
Now we've got people that don't even want to use well represented armies and doing counts as.

When will this madness end?

Droma
16-05-2011, 04:27
Use codex DA if your going an all sallies termy army. Otherwise just stick with codex:SM as it represents the rest of the chapter far better.

The Orange
16-05-2011, 05:02
If your dead-set on pimping out Terminators then yea I'd go with SW of DA. But I don't know why people never mention Honor Guards or the Command squad. Artificer armor with TH not fluffly enough? Or a squad with all flamer/meltas?

And IMO equipment shouldn't be used to define a Chapter. I mean does it say Sallie Termies must have mixed squads of TH's + Flamers? (Honestly never herd that before) I mean if you just build your army around close ranged fire fights I'd thin that'd be fluffy enough no?

Overlord Krycis
16-05-2011, 07:55
One thing I always thought was a good addition to a Salamander army was Sternguard Vets...Combi-bolters mixing up flamers and melta, not to mention a Multimelta available.
As for using Space Wolves for Salies...erm...apart from doing a Firedrake force, they don't really fit the Salamander organisation/theme.
I'd personally just use the Space Marine codex though.

AlphariusOmegon20
16-05-2011, 13:44
If your dead-set on pimping out Terminators then yea I'd go with SW of DA. But I don't know why people never mention Honor Guards or the Command squad. Artificer armor with TH not fluffly enough? Or a squad with all flamer/meltas?

And IMO equipment shouldn't be used to define a Chapter. I mean does it say Sallie Termies must have mixed squads of TH's + Flamers? (Honestly never herd that before) I mean if you just build your army around close ranged fire fights I'd thin that'd be fluffy enough no?

The Pyre Guard (Tu'Shan's bodyguard) would fit quite well as an Honor Guard squad from C:SM, as that is what they are. I am told that the Pyre Guard will be featured in both Promethean Sun and the last book of the Salamander series, Nocturne ( I can't speak with absolute certainty to them being in Promethean Sun yet, as I haven't received my book as of today.)

As for the issue with the mixed TH/HF Termie squads, that comes from the most recently published audio drama on the Sallies, Fireborn, so that is now canon.



One thing I always thought was a good addition to a Salamander army was Sternguard Vets...Combi-bolters mixing up flamers and melta, not to mention a Multimelta available.
As for using Space Wolves for Salies...erm...apart from doing a Firedrake force, they don't really fit the Salamander organisation/theme.
I'd personally just use the Space Marine codex though.

You forgot the Heavy Flamer that C:SM Sternguard can have also. ;)

Havock
16-05-2011, 14:13
Space Wolves don't work because they are either too shooty from far away or they are too close combaty, and never work in that sweet spot of close range. Blood angels focus on speedy vehicles and ferocious close combat. And GKs in PA/TA with psychic powers? Not salamandery at all.

Grey hunters pretty much occupy the 'close quarters sweet spot'.

Carlosophy
16-05-2011, 14:43
If you really are a fluff player then nothing but Vulkan and the SM book will do. Load up on Heavy Flamer speeders and hunt down the Chaplain model from 3rd.

AlphariusOmegon20
16-05-2011, 14:49
If you really are a fluff player then nothing but Vulkan and the SM book will do. Load up on Heavy Flamer speeders and hunt down the Chaplain model from 3rd.

I'd stipulate that a fluff player would want to replace the C:SM Termies with the DA Termies, other than that, I agree C:SM is the best option Sallies have right now.

I'd also second trying to hunt down Xavier's old model for your Chappy.

the1stpip
16-05-2011, 16:37
Take Space Wolves with Thunder lizard riders.

And good luck with chaplain Xavier, I have been after a decently priced one for ages.

AlphariusOmegon20
17-05-2011, 00:11
Take Space Wolves with Thunder lizard riders.

And good luck with chaplain Xavier, I have been after a decently priced one for ages.

LOL I buy them on eBay every so often at fair prices. Not sure why you're having trouble finding one. God knows I haven't bought all of them.


Yet. :D