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Quinn
24-05-2011, 00:15
This came up at Ardboyz and my opponent insisted that Kairos was 2 Sorcerers when it came to using 3rd Eye against him. I thought it was a ridiculous assumption, but let it slide. So, does 3rd Eye give you access to all of Kairos's Spells or just one of the heads plus the Tzeentch spells? If it is in fact only one of the heads, do you choose?

GodlessM
24-05-2011, 00:24
Kairos is one Sorcerer; the heads are only differentiated when picking spells at the start of the game and casting, so using Third Eye you know all 14 spells that he knows.

inq.serge
24-05-2011, 00:24
Al through each head is a lvl4 wizard, kairos is still a single spellcaster, so, you get all its spells.

Damn godlessM ninjaing me. :mad:

RMacDeezy
24-05-2011, 01:47
the DoC FAQ says that his heads are different wizards for miscasts and other rules so i would only let you choose one head

Yrrdead
24-05-2011, 03:35
Going by the WoC book you pick a single enemy spellcaster RMacDeezy.

It isn't ambiguous enough to allow an FAQ answer override the rules for that gift.

Lord Inquisitor
24-05-2011, 03:52
Hmm, good question. Actually I would read spellcaster the other way.

The Third Eye does indeed say:

"the bearer may choose an enemy spellcaster within his line of sight. The bearer is counted as knowing all the spells known by that enemy spellcaster"

The Kairos FAQ:

Q. Do Kairos Fateweaver’s heads count as different Wizards for
the purposes of miscasts and other rules? (p52)
A. Yes.

Presuming "wizard" and "spellcaster" are synonymous, I would have to say you would have to pick one of Kairos' heads as they are two different Wizards according to the FAQ. Yes, they're one model, but the Third Eye doesn't say "model", it says "spellcaster", and Kairos represents two different Wizards.

You still get to pick the head and you still get all of Tzeentch lore too. Doesn't seem like too much of a disadvantage.

the Goat
24-05-2011, 11:02
Kairos is two different spellcasters. Third eye can only be used on one of his heads per turn. It is clear as day.

Tregar
24-05-2011, 11:29
Yep, you're gonna need a fourth eye to steal both head's spells!

RMacDeezy
24-05-2011, 12:17
Going by the WoC book you pick a single enemy spellcaster RMacDeezy.

It isn't ambiguous enough to allow an FAQ answer override the rules for that gift.

i completely disagree, the fact that it uses the word "spellcaster" instead of "wizard" or "model" makes it ambiguous. given a choice between the two, i'd say "spellcaster" is more accurately interpreted as "wizard," of which kairos counts as 2. the DoC FAQ is completely clear on how Kairos' heads interact with spells, rules and abilities, it is the poor wording in the WoC book that leads to any ambiguity in the first place.

GodlessM
24-05-2011, 17:12
i completely disagree, the fact that it uses the word "spellcaster" instead of "wizard" or "model" makes it ambiguous. given a choice between the two, i'd say "spellcaster" is more accurately interpreted as "wizard," of which kairos counts as 2. the DoC FAQ is completely clear on how Kairos' heads interact with spells, rules and abilities, it is the poor wording in the WoC book that leads to any ambiguity in the first place.

How is saying it targets an enemy spellcaster poor wording? The problem is in the Kairos rules, not the Third Eye rules.

On another note, if the DoC book is clear on Kairos, then why did it need an FAQ to clear up, and why are there still threads about his rules (such as this one)?

RMacDeezy
26-05-2011, 00:47
How is saying it targets an enemy spellcaster poor wording? The problem is in the Kairos rules, not the Third Eye rules. to use your own argument against you, the fact that it is causing contention at all means that it is worded poorly. why did they use the word "spellcaster?" acccording to the magic rules, a model that can cast spells is a wizard. the third eye could have used either "wizard" or "model," either one would lead to a different answer but we'd be having no debate.


On another note, if the DoC book is clear on Kairos, then why did it need an FAQ to clear up, and why are there still threads about his rules (such as this one)?
i challenge you to find in this post where i mention the DoC army book-

i completely disagree, the fact that it uses the word "spellcaster" instead of "wizard" or "model" makes it ambiguous. given a choice between the two, i'd say "spellcaster" is more accurately interpreted as "wizard," of which kairos counts as 2. the DoC FAQ is completely clear on how Kairos' heads interact with spells, rules and abilities, it is the poor wording in the WoC book that leads to any ambiguity in the first place.

and as to why are there still threads on the subject? because warseerites have a knack for producing arguments for even the most ridiculous rules issues, you should know this by now. the asking of such a question is pure asininity and in no way supports any side in any debate.

GodlessM
26-05-2011, 01:45
to use your own argument against you, the fact that it is causing contention at all means that it is worded poorly. why did they use the word "spellcaster?" acccording to the magic rules, a model that can cast spells is a wizard. the third eye could have used either "wizard" or "model," either one would lead to a different answer but we'd be having no debate.

Yes, the WoC book is badly written because Phil Kelly couldn't see into the future and know that the word spellcaster wouldn't show up in the 8th BRB much :shifty: seriously, this is akin to people saying the Steam Tank can't be HKB'ed because it isn't a 'creature'.


and as to why are there still threads on the subject? because warseerites have a knack for producing arguments for even the most ridiculous rules issues, you should know this by now. the asking of such a question is pure asininity and in no way supports any side in any debate.

So the people on Warseer are also the reason these threads pop up on other forums they may not even be on as well yes? Also funnily enough a Warseerite didn't bring up the issue, an opponent he played at Ardboyz did.

On another note, you are saying people on Warseer asking what you deem stupid questions is the cause for rules threads popping up, yet people like you lawyer on every word to make rules as you want them (because a spellcaster obviously isn't a wizard :rolleyes:); are you telling me that doesn't cause just as much if not more problems?

RMacDeezy
26-05-2011, 02:18
(because a spellcaster obviously isn't a wizard :rolleyes:);

so you're sarcastically saying that spellcaster=wizard? in which case kairos counts as 2 spellcasters? in which case the 3rd eye can only steal from one of his heads?

Tregar
26-05-2011, 10:20
You know considering your point seems to be that the rules are written too ambiguously, your posts aren't especially clear themselves!

RMacDeezy
26-05-2011, 11:43
i'm pointing out the irony that GodlessM is arguing the same point as i am. we both appear to be saying that a spellcaster and a wizard are the same thing. he just thinks it was an excellent choice of wording, and i think it was a poor one.

Tregar
26-05-2011, 11:51
Yeah, I know :) It was hard to tell though, so maybe you should pick your own wording a bit better :D

Quinn
27-05-2011, 18:57
I think I've seen this whole 'Spellcaster, 'Wizard', 'Sorceror', 'Shaman', etc., thing before. I've always just played that all the various terms used to describe a model that can cast Magic spells are interchangeable, otherwise the game is virtually unplayable. Given that, it was indeed the DoC FAQ that caused this problem in the first place. I happened to concede the arguement because I absolutely hate it when a tournament game devolves into an arguement over a rule. Given the responses I've read, this looks like another one for the ever-growing 'Exactly how do you play this?' list. Thanks for the input.

the Goat
28-05-2011, 00:23
. . .I happened to concede the arguement because I absolutely hate it when a tournament game devolves into an arguement over a rule. Given the responses I've read, this looks like another one for the ever-growing 'Exactly how do you play this?' list. Thanks for the input.
Did you read the same thread I did? Please explain why you think third eye would effect both of Kairos' heads? It is plainly obvious that it can only effect one at a time.

LordoftheBrassThrone
29-05-2011, 02:17
Wizard= spellcaster= shaman= sorcerer. They're the same thing, but a chaos wizard/goblin sorcerer/ empire shaman don't sound right. For all intents and purposes they're the same £&$$*& thing!
Back on topic, Lord Inquisitor has it nailed. They count as two different spellcasters for miscasts and OTHER RULES, so only one head. Stop trying to twist the rules every little bit you can for minimal benefit, and use your common sense.