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Night Bearer
24-05-2011, 03:11
This is going to sound like a weird, random, and cynical question, if not also a stupid one, but I'm just kinda curious. And please, this isn't meant to be another thread questioning GW's bizness acumen! :)

My question is: on the one hand, GW is a/the big player in the tabletop gaming hobby. Having said that, it's a very expensive and time-consuming industry for them to be in. Lots of product to make and ship and sell, retail to support, pirate recasters and internet discounters to go after, rules whining to put up with, etc. etc. etc....

On the other hand, you have a couple IP properties that could really rake in some licensing money if you decided to make the IP your core business rather than the hobby. By that I mean:

-Sign deals to make movies that give Hollywood control (rather than controlling it to the point of trying to do it in-house).
-Similar with television shows/cartoons/whatever.
-Bring back Specialist Games type games to sell in places like Target and Walmart.
-Continue Fantasy Flight type deals to have others do the grunt work of making awesome products using your licenses. Heck, maybe 'outsource' 40k and WHFB in a similar way. You retain final say and all that, but you're not the one footing the bills for equipment and raw materials and all that.
-Continue pushing the brand in video games, comic books, etc.
-Continue with non-hobby lines like Black Library, and either license or make your own new lines of merchandise, like clothing or whatever.

Basically, my point is - this hobby seems like a really niche and labor/resource-intensive industry for a company that has the kind of IP that GW does, where ostensibly you could fire everyone save the writers and artists, and focus on generating profit through licensing and the merchandise you make yourself (e.g. Black Library).

Granted, I know GW is probably still making profit off the toy soldiers, and I know a Hollywood-made GW movie isn't a sure thing to be profitable, but at the same time I wonder how profitable GW could be going such a route? I know most people would say the minis games drive the interest in everything else, but I feel like the IP has reached a level (i.e there's so much of it to mine) that GW could easily 'retire' the hobby work for themselves and let others do the dirty work, much the way they've essentially farmed their RPG stuff out to Fantasy Flight.

I mean, am I just totally off in thinking that GW - Costs of being a Hobby Business Themselves + Increased Licensing Fees from spinning off games and focusing on licensing might equal a more profitable GW than what it is currently? I guess what's provoked this is that in one of the GW business threads, a poster made a (IMO) great remark that most of GW's "bad" business decisions have been those made to support/defend brick and mortar gaming stores (both theirs and indies).

I guess I'm just wondering is if GW doesn't really know (anymore) how to be a good hobby business, but could be better at basically being an IP development and licensing company. IE close everything except the writers and artists that continue developing new concepts and narratives and imagery for the IPs.

Thanks for listening to my rambles! :angel:

blongbling
24-05-2011, 07:39
So I don't really see a questions. Will GW exploit its IP more, of course if the partners are right and have the money to do it; the continued forays into computer gaming shows a commitment to this money spinner.

Does GW know what it takes to be a great hobby business, yes. Are the making some decisions that a lot of people find questionable, yes. Does that make them a bad hobby company, no.....just a silly one

Wolf Scout Ewan
24-05-2011, 13:26
I really don't have any answers for you, only more questions.

GW have done clothing and accessories in the past... bulldog and then Artifacts. Both did excellent stuff.

They also did coldcast statues like this (http://www.amazon.com/Warhammer-40-000-Collectibles-Warriors/dp/B0006JGRVQ%3FSubscriptionId%3D1GFT91FXG4DT2Q8P2V82 %26tag%3Dsusppc-487-20%26linkCode%3Dxm2%26camp%3D2025%26creative%3D165 953%26creativeASIN%3DB0006JGRVQ) but for some reason they are always ususally removed by Ebay. If anyone knows why let me know.

GW T shirts have been and gone a couple of times.

So TBH I don't think GW is that committed to anything other than licensed computer games and RPG's now.

Elanthanis
24-05-2011, 13:36
I think it's worth noting that it's likely that the accessories and/or the shirts have been pulled a number of times due to poor sales. Keep in mind that as a niche hobby, such items often stigmatize their bearers, so they really only cater to the most rabid of the niche crowd you're catering to.

blongbling
24-05-2011, 14:24
They also did coldcast statues like this (http://www.amazon.com/Warhammer-40-000-Collectibles-Warriors/dp/B0006JGRVQ%3FSubscriptionId%3D1GFT91FXG4DT2Q8P2V82 %26tag%3Dsusppc-487-20%26linkCode%3Dxm2%26camp%3D2025%26creative%3D165 953%26creativeASIN%3DB0006JGRVQ) but for some reason they are always ususally removed by Ebay. If anyone knows why let me know..

really :( was going to sell mine

Night Bearer
24-05-2011, 16:40
Good points mechanicalhorizon, but I'll point you to Mutant Chronicles getting a movie. Not that it was a good or successful one, but I would be a very rich man if I had made that bet in Vegas 15 years ago:

Bookie: "You're betting this 'Chronicles of Mutants' gets a movie before 'Games Workshop 40k'? Well, okay, um, geez, I dunno, a million to one? How much are you wanting to bet?"
Me: "All of it."
Bookie: "What, like your savings?"
Me: "No, all money. The entire world's."

Blongbling, I guess my question is: wouldn't GW be better off getting out of the hobby itself, and focusing on developing IP and then licensing it out to other companies for video games, toys, RPGs, minis games, etc.?

The effort and costs of doing minis games, combined with the fact that most of the hatred GW suffers comes from their hobby-related decisions, just makes me think that if they removed themselves from those areas, they'd remain a profitable company but without the hassle of what seems like a very niche industry and all the headache that comes with being a hobby company (e.g. materials costs, retail, etc.).

The bearded one
24-05-2011, 16:49
As far as I know IP stuff and licensing is only a small part of their income. To them it's like "ooh, look, a penny", their little bit extra to supplement their income.

Wolf Scout Ewan
24-05-2011, 16:57
I totally agree with that Night Bearer.

Unfortunately, now bear with me (I say that quite alot haha), GW higher ups have always thought that their games should not go outside of the little niche. For a looong time they refused to do computer games as, and I quote... "If they aren't buying figures then it isn't worth it".

Going outside the niche is risky (LotR for instance) but doing this required investment and commitment. You have to think in the long term and GW has long shown that they don't (bubble burst of LotR, closing artifacts and clothing). You need to build these things up and not just watch as they die (bulldog and artifacts) and keep pushing (sideshow models statues). You cannot ever rest on your laurels and this is what gw cannot seem to do.

Everyone here has seen the Fantasy Flight RPG's but how many of the customer base knows about them?

paddyalexander
24-05-2011, 17:06
Good points mechanicalhorizon, but I'll point you to Mutant Chronicles getting a movie. Not that it was a good or successful one, but I would be a very rich man if I had made that bet in Vegas 15 years ago:

Bookie: "You're betting this 'Chronicles of Mutants' gets a movie before 'Games Workshop 40k'? Well, okay, um, geez, I dunno, a million to one? How much are you wanting to bet?"
Me: "All of it."
Bookie: "What, like your savings?"
Me: "No, all money. The entire world's."

Blongbling, I guess my question is: wouldn't GW be better off getting out of the hobby itself, and focusing on developing IP and then licensing it out to other companies for video games, toys, RPGs, minis games, etc.?

The effort and costs of doing minis games, combined with the fact that most of the hatred GW suffers comes from their hobby-related decisions, just makes me think that if they removed themselves from those areas, they'd remain a profitable company but without the hassle of what seems like a very niche industry and all the headache that comes with being a hobby company (e.g. materials costs, retail, etc.).

It has also been confirmed that Tim Burton is interested in making a movie based on Privateer Pesses' Monsterpocalypse and has been listed as one of his next possible projects.

Also which hobby? The "GW Hobby" - yes. The Wargaming Hobby - no.

insan0
24-05-2011, 17:22
Personally I don't think that the GW IP going to be the type of "bump" hollywood movies are after. Sure they have a great story but its all a big mish-mash of every other sci-fi and fantasy genre out there, meaning the same grimdark movie can be made while skirting around the GW IP. Coupled with the relatively small niche market for GW, would Hollywood need a license that caters movies to GW enthusiasts? Genetically engineered Marines who fight in space are not GW's IP, just don't call them Space Marines.

@Night Bearer
I sat through 15 minutes of the Mutant Chronicles movie before I turned it off. I am hesitant to match the Ultra movie because of it.

Bodysnatcher
24-05-2011, 19:01
I think GW would be well served by doing (i.e. contracting out on a loose rein) an arthouse type movie where their IP is there but subtle. Say using some of their Inquisition fluff - the only sight of a marine might be a statue in a long shot background - there is so much depth they could mine. Make the film enjoyable in itself and people will nose into the background on their own.

chromedog
24-05-2011, 22:50
GW is committed to THEIR hobby (which is bilking rubes of their savings, apparently).

How committed to the wargaming hobby? They make stuff. They offer zero support otherwise (they claim to 'offer' their painting and gaming tables for 'free' but you are heavily encouraged to buy the latest release while doing so). In return they get a huge, FREE word of mouth advertising campaign.

ted1138
24-05-2011, 23:51
Don't forget about GW's range of Warhammer Historical Rules, which are very good indeed, and either show some commitment to the wider hobby, or are just a way to keep the old hands happy, not sure which.

But GW have always shied away from growing their IP. Look how long it took them to start printing novels. Video games have been a big problem, they don't want a video game to be too much like their table top games, as that might take sales away from the miniatures line, and the same goes for action figures and toys.

I guess GW have a very focused core business plan that they feel they need to stick closely to, no matter what, and when times get tough they just squeeze their core market a bit more.

FabricatorGeneralMike
25-05-2011, 04:30
GW is committed to THEIR hobby (which is bilking rubes of their savings, apparently).

How committed to the wargaming hobby? They make stuff. They offer zero support otherwise (they claim to 'offer' their painting and gaming tables for 'free' but you are heavily encouraged to buy the latest release while doing so). In return they get a huge, FREE word of mouth advertising campaign.

Thats so true, GW has their own 'hobby', taking your money and telling you, you're getting a priemum luxory molded piece of plastic.

The word of mouth used to be the way to go, when it was positive word of mouth. GW seem's to realise that their are other players in the TTWG market, so they decided to make their own 'hobby'. Ill proprotioned Space Marines and other figgies, and parting you from your money, seem to be GW's only 'Hobby'. ;)

It just seems that more and more people are using the internet at a younger and younger age, and most of what is on the internet about GW is very negative. It would seem that the 'interwebz' is a better way to moarket and show your product to a wider auidence. Yet GW just keeps on plodding along like they are still in the late 80's or early 90's.

mulkers
25-05-2011, 04:50
The Hobbyİ is owned by GW.

They have to be committed, right?

Night Bearer
25-05-2011, 12:57
I sat through 15 minutes of the Mutant Chronicles movie before I turned it off. I am hesitant to match the Ultra movie because of it.
How do you know you haven't missed out on the greatest movie since Galaxy of Terror? ;-)



I totally agree with that Night Bearer.

Unfortunately, now bear with me (I say that quite alot haha), GW higher ups have always thought that their games should not go outside of the little niche. For a looong time they refused to do computer games as, and I quote... "If they aren't buying figures then it isn't worth it".
Good points. I guess it just seems to me that whatever they make in hobby sales could be covered if they focused and were more aggressive on licensing their IP, fex letting Fantasy Flight do games like Space Hulk and Blood Bowl while some other company does 40k and WHFB.

They'd still have Black Library, and maybe even Forgeworld given how relatively independent they already are. You could maybe even devote some of the freed up resources to help expand BL or even start their own in-house animation department.

Granted their IP isn't necessarily the most innovative, and Hollywood isn't quite beating their doors down, but can you imagine the possibilities of a 40k-based toyline? May or may not be to the level of TMNT or GIJoe, but I'd bet such a thing would do well.

EmperorNorton
25-05-2011, 15:06
No movie ever made can match the sheer terror that is Starship Troopers 3: Marauder.

Heinlein must be spinning in his grave. :cries:

You are looking at the movie the wrong way.
It's a perfectly hilarious comedy.

Voss
25-05-2011, 15:22
Don't forget about GW's range of Warhammer Historical Rules, which are very good indeed, and either show some commitment to the wider hobby, or are just a way to keep the old hands happy, not sure which.


Didn't they end the WH historical line just recently?

Also, its an odd thing. Despite starting warhammer in the late 80s, and having a WD subscription for the better part of 2 decades... I never once saw any advertising or acknowledgement of the historical rules. I just happened across them in a LGS one day about 6 years ago- hadn't ever heard of them or seen them mentioned by anyone associated with GW, ever. It was a weird moment, but it said a lot about how they do business, as does their handling of the specialist games- since Epic and to some degree BFG are some of the best games GW ever made. At least in part because they actually match the scale of the 40k universe.

SunTzu
25-05-2011, 16:44
Don't forget about GW's range of Warhammer Historical Rules, which are very good indeed, and either show some commitment to the wider hobby, or are just a way to keep the old hands happy, not sure which.

They are indeed very good, but since the release of WAB 2nd Edition there's been nothing whatsoever to come out of WHWG - not the same as GW, though I believe they share, or shared?, the same building and many of the staff; but this is why there is almost never any mention of it in WD, because it's not a GW product. I presume they only ever did it in the first place to keep the grognards in the company happy, and now Jervis is AFAIK the only one still there.

Anyway, we've been promised the Samurai supplement for two years now but it's not appeared, so I don't know if WAB is even still considered a going concern. After all, Rick and Jervis released Black Powder and now Hail Caesar! through a completely different company, and Black Powder was originally pencilled in as a WHWG product. As a result I've been working on the assumption that anything that comes out of WHWG in future will be an unexpected bonus.

ted1138
25-05-2011, 17:02
I asked the WD guys last year at the GD seminar why they didn't include articles about Forgeworld products, they said they'd look into it. I should have asked about Historicals too. I guess WD just isn't aimed at that type of gamer(or they view those things as something they have to compete with?).

Voss
25-05-2011, 19:42
I asked the WD guys last year at the GD seminar why they didn't include articles about Forgeworld products, they said they'd look into it. I should have asked about Historicals too. I guess WD just isn't aimed at that type of gamer(or they view those things as something they have to compete with?).

I think thats a perfect example as why I don't see GW as part of 'the hobby', but rather comitted to itself- the company is too busy competing with its own products and supply lines, in much the same way the GW direct competes with their trade sales. As a business, its too busy tripping over itself to notice there is a larger hobby.

Wolf Scout Ewan
26-05-2011, 00:39
I asked the WD guys last year at the GD seminar why they didn't include articles about Forgeworld products, they said they'd look into it. I should have asked about Historicals too. I guess WD just isn't aimed at that type of gamer(or they view those things as something they have to compete with?).

That is the same thing for them. When I worked for them FW was just taking off and they said that FW was not going to be in WD.

This was because it was thought that FW was for fans and vets who wanted more from the hobby and they didn't want the kids buying FW stuff and not being able to build and paint it.

The same thing goes for the other licensed stuff, it isn't in white dwarf because it is for fans and vets.

What irks me is that over the years many of us have been their marketting people. WE did their word of mouth stuff and now? Well, I don't feel like doing that anymore as they do not respect what people have done for their business. Forgeworld and RPG's are great and everything but killing the rumour mill and the continual price hikes have had detrimental effects on the hobby I love.

When I was a member of the wargaming club at uni we had games in the SU and I remember someone coming to us and saying they would get their son involved in the hobby after watching us. This is the kind of thing that vets do, now if only GW recognised that and the value we brought.

Vets do not suddenly stop buying, we keep buying and adding to our collections. To keep an existing customer requires investment but we add value so they do not lose money. How many of us get to 2k points in our army and stop buying? We don't, if this forum is anythinbg to go buy we are always adding more or starting new armies.

Sorry, just my tuppence worth.

Myrmidon616
26-05-2011, 01:01
I think they'll expand thier use of the IP if it further benefits 'the hobby', particulalrly with regards to sales.

If you look in the back of BL books or game manuals, there is always an advert for the tabletop game. Warhammer Online had some promo orc figure and the 'eavy metal team painted up some models for the main characters from the ultramarines movie. Somewhere in the developers diaries videos for the upcoming Space marine game, they mention trying to make it appealing to nonw 40K fans so that they can get into it more easily.

Basically my point is that everything outside of the tabletop hobby is to some degree geared towards dragging people into 'the hobby'. If you look at recent events such as finecast, I think they are too focussed on that to move out of the box so to speak.

ted1138
26-05-2011, 01:20
I've introduced a few people to the hobby, I've taught them the rules, helped them pick an army, I've shown them how to build and paint their models. I've even gone to the effort of cleaning and building their Forgeworld kits for them so they wouldn't have to work with resin, or, due to the expense, mess them up(from experience i know how easy that can be). Do GW value my contribution to "their" hobby? I doubt it.

Elanthanis
26-05-2011, 01:26
I think that games like Dawn of War, WAR, and Space Marine overall do more for the IP than the tabletop at this point. Black Library feeds off this sort of stuff ("omg there are books about this?!?!" reaction). If I remember correctly that's one of their most successful present ventures.

Heck, Fantasy Flight Games has also done a lot for the IP. It'd be nice if they acknowledged that their IP can have a life beyond metal figures.

Myrmidon616
26-05-2011, 02:13
Do GW value my contribution to "their" hobby? I doubt it.

This comes to mind:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=15100086a

Thier idea of a 'hobby hero' is someone who makes thier products look good.

I'd be interested to know how many people get into GWs side ventures (BL etc.) having first played the tabletop hobby and vice versa.

Ozorik
26-05-2011, 06:19
Didn't they end the WH historical line just recently?


Not quite, they have recently released a massively overpriced WWII game. WHH are essentially specalist games in that it receives token support at best and will probably see very few (if any) new releases. There are WAB 'army books' that have been written and ready for release for years yet are still to see the light of day.

I have heard that the continued existence of WHH was due to Rick Priestly but now that he has left GW will happily let it die.

GW is totally committed to the 'hobby', after all they have created a cozy little bubble for themselves so why would they leave? They got lucky with DoW hence the raft of new computer games and their IP is reasonably valuable but I don't think it is so valuable that they can rely upon its revenues alone. There has been a 40K film by the way (space marine?), it wasn't very good.

Korraz
26-05-2011, 10:32
They are absolutely committed to The Hobby. The Games Workshop Hobby, that is. Which is: Buy stuff and build it exactly as printed on the box, play on a Games Workshop table with Games Workshop Terrain, use Games Workshop Tape measures and Games Workshop dice and if you are over 18, get the **** out.
WHH is going down, because if they really supported WHH, they would have to admit that there are...OTHER games and companies out there. *gasp*

Wolf Scout Ewan
26-05-2011, 13:35
WHH? Wassat?

Any organisation worth its salt will look at what other companies are doing and try and copy what is going right and avoid what is going wrong. Living inside a bubble just doesn't work, organisational myopeia leads to companies doing the same things wrong time and time again.

Korraz
26-05-2011, 13:40
WHH? Wassat?

That was essentially my reaction when I read "WHH is gettin an update!" here on Warseer a year ago.
Go to the official site and look for Historical. That's all you need to know about GW and the market outside of The Games Workshop Hobby.

SunTzu
26-05-2011, 16:09
Not quite, they have recently released a massively overpriced WWII game.

I was about to call you a liar here, but it turns out you're right. :D I guess that shows what a mess Warhammer Historical really is - I've bought all their previous books, I'm on their mailing list, and at no point did they think maybe they should tell me that they're releasing a new book/game?

Mind you, at £48 for the rulebook I'd not have bought it anyway... even though I've bought everything else they've ever made, and once presumed that would continue. (Though I did get burned with their WW1 rules which, get this, didn't include rules for trench warfare :wtf: - you had to buy the expansion book for that! I mean, it's not like trench warfare was a very important part of WW1, or anything...?). All I want really to know now is, where the hell are my Samurai rules for WAB?

Jim30
26-05-2011, 16:27
Tellingly, within months of leaving GW Rick Priestly has issued a new set of ancients rules known as Hail Caesar, which have gone down well. That combined with the Clash of Empires rules means that WAB is all but dead, which is exactly where GW wants it to be.

SunTzu
26-05-2011, 16:34
Well, Hail Caesar is the ancients version of Black Powder, and Jervis wrote Black Powder and is still working at GW; so what Hail Caesar means for WHWG is probably not very much. Yes, WHWG seems to be mortally wounded, but Hail Caesar would never have had anything to do with it anyway.

Clash of Empires?

Dryaktylus
26-05-2011, 17:00
But GW have always shied away from growing their IP. Look how long it took them to start printing novels. Video games have been a big problem, they don't want a video game to be too much like their table top games, as that might take sales away from the miniatures line, and the same goes for action figures and toys.


First novels 1989, first video games with their IP early 90ies (although there were older ones (http://whfb.lexicanum.de/mediawiki/images/6/6b/Chaoscomputergame.jpg)), HeroQuest and Space Crusade from MB with GW licence 1989/1990.

The two Space Hulk games for PC (and later consoles) were almost identically to the board game.

The only thing they stopped forever since the collaboration with MB were games with miniatures you could also use in their own games.

GobboRant
26-05-2011, 17:06
What was the WWII game called?
I have just started looking into Flames of War and it has all the hallmarks of GW - great pics, pushing the figures hard and loads of very expensive supplements!
Doesn't seem related but definitely the same style.

Regards the main question.
Committed or not I reckon without GW there would be an awful lot less wargamers out there. Without them Wargaming clubs would just be a load of old codgers like me moving badly cast napoleonics around.

The hope is that once GW lures the youngsters into the hobby they eventually venture outside and realise there is life beyond it.

rodmillard
26-05-2011, 18:23
@Gobborant:

Flames of War is made by Battlefront Games (who own Wargames Illustrated - one of the reasons you never see any other WWII rules in WI these days). And you can add "shafting independent retailers" to the list of things they have in common with GW (they stopped supplying Maelstrom because of Maelstrom's discounts - there's a thread about it in the Historical Games forum)

At the end of the day, GW are committed to GW. They deliberately forced out 90% of independent gaming stores in the UK in the 1990's and then made themselves into a "one-stop-shop" for The Hobby (tm) to stop people realising there was anything more to the hobby than GW games. Their entire retail model requires their customers to be ignorant, something which is becoming harder and harder in the internet age.

Night Bearer
26-05-2011, 19:21
What was the WWII game called?
I have just started looking into Flames of War and it has all the hallmarks of GW - great pics, pushing the figures hard and loads of very expensive supplements!
Doesn't seem related but definitely the same style.
GW's game is Kampfgruppe Normandy:

http://www.warhammer-historical.com/acatalog/Kampfgruppe_Normandy.html

Although Battlefront (Flames of War) are largely ex-GW staff from what I've heard.

GobboRant
26-05-2011, 19:51
Thanks for the info. I can easily belief that a lot of the people involved are ex-GW. Definitely has their style. And I have to say some beautifully painted models and pics. Training game developers is another GW contribution to the hobby perhaps?

It is a sad story about the independent retailers in the 90s. I grew up near Cardiff and Parker's and sold me my first Citadel fantasy figures round about 1980. They really promoted the figures and White Dwarf. After many years they were suddenly toast and the shiny new GW store opened a couple of hundred yards from the site.

Ozorik
27-05-2011, 07:46
Clash of Empires?

Its by Great Escape games (the same people who made Rules of Engagement) and is a similar style of game to WAB.

The direct ancestor of flames of war was something called Warhammer: panzer battles so that gives you an idea of Battlefronts background.

ted1138
29-05-2011, 08:09
First novels 1989, first video games with their IP early 90ies (although there were older ones (http://whfb.lexicanum.de/mediawiki/images/6/6b/Chaoscomputergame.jpg)), HeroQuest and Space Crusade from MB with GW licence 1989/1990.

The two Space Hulk games for PC (and later consoles) were almost identically to the board game.

The only thing they stopped forever since the collaboration with MB were games with miniatures you could also use in their own games.



Weren't the early books published by Boxtree, about 15 years after GW were formed? And the Space Hulk game was a version of the Space Hulk boardgame, not a Warhammer table top wargame.

Dryaktylus
29-05-2011, 10:47
Weren't the early books published by Boxtree, about 15 years after GW were formed?.

They had a subsidiary company called GW Books where they published books like Inquisitor, Drachenfels, Zaragoz and Dark Future Novels (with internal artwork btw.). They were republished by Boxtree later, right. Here's (http://www.vectormagazine.co.uk/article.asp?articleID=42) an interesting ("slightly" critical) article with some insights in the history of GW novels.


And the Space Hulk game was a version of the Space Hulk boardgame, not a Warhammer table top wargame.

Then take Shadow of the Horned Rat, Final Liberation, Chaos Gate or Rites of War as examples.

blongbling
29-05-2011, 17:43
Well, Hail Caesar is the ancients version of Black Powder, and Jervis wrote Black Powder and is still working at GW; so what Hail Caesar means for WHWG is probably not very much. Yes, WHWG seems to be mortally wounded, but Hail Caesar would never have had anything to do with it anyway.

Clash of Empires?

I thought Rik wrote Black Powder?