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View Full Version : Great success with no Magic in 8th.



Kyte
25-05-2011, 16:03
Hi Warseer. Yesterday, I had my first 8th edition game. A 2000 point game with Lizardmen versus mono Tzeentch WOC.

I had prior to the game, read a lot up on 8th ed tactica and whatnot, as well as reading the rulebook thoroughly. After reading the new magic rules, I found it to seem way too random to rely on. Sure spells like Dwellers below are potentially game winning, but chances of first getting the spell, then cast it and roll well for damage is incredibly small, it seems.

Therefore I found that it would rather pay off, just spending the many points sufficient magic would cost on more troops, who could potentially soak up the damage caused by magic.

The game went perfect, and I won 1500+ to just short of 400 VPs, and the chaos player and I are usually pretty equal generals (I'm a bit better with magic item combos, and he is a bit better at rolling dice than I am...)

I had the following:

Saurus Oldblood
Magic weapon with flaming attacks and -2 save modifier
Glittering Scales
Aura of Quetzl (additional -1 to be hit in combat)
Other Trickster's shard

Saurus BSB with Razor Standard and GW

Scar Veteran
Always strikes first sword
Potion of Strength

28 Saurus with spear and FC (Gen and BSB went here)

29 Saurus with spear and FC (Scar Vet Went Here)

2*10 Skink skirmishers with blowpipes

2*2 Salamanders with 9 skink crew

1 Stegadon

He had:

Chaos Lord with a magic weapon giving 1+ attack for each enemy in base contact and an insane ward and Armour save (Making him litterally untouchable even to my Anti-Chaos armour Saurus Lord Build)

Sorcerer on disc with Terror Mask

Sorceror on foot with Dispel scrolls (We weren't able to find any rulings on whether multiple dispel scrolls are allowed in 8th or not, so I let him buy two, knowing they would be useless with my magicless approach)

24 Warriors with 2 Hand weapons, MOT and FC

18 Chaos Warriors with MOT and Shields

12 Chosen with Great Weapons

5 Knights with FC, Lances and some random Magic Banner.

Well it's not that he rolled bad spells (Unit attacks itself and Infernal Gateway for Disc, and Hero-Transform and lesser Magic missile for foot sorc), but the random magic did really nothing of significant value, although the most fun part of a game was when the disc flew behind my line, causing terror checks to most of my units, me not failing a single test (I don't think I ever failed a cold blooded leadership test within the BSB bubble...) Anyway the disc rolled quadruple six on Gateway, then rolled 3 S4 hits, killing 2 saurus from my General's bunker, then rolling the miscast where you place a template and take S10 hit, which didn't wound him.
I kept associating the whole thing with damp squip fireworks :p and in the following round my skinks turned him into a pin cushion.

With the Disc gone, I could march once again, which was nice, as the march block of my two main units for two turns, while his army didn't move significantly closer slowed down the combat quite a bit.

Salamanders were golden, and I actually find them completely broken with the new template rules, so I don't know whether to continue using them, or try the more friendly Razordons in stead? Or maybe some Krox?

The one unit of sallies wiped out half of the chosen in a lucky move, while the other was charged and run down by knights, who only suffered one casualty.

In my next turn I was lucky. I had the Stegadon charge the remaining chosen, and devastate them completely, only losing one skink (You do get both Stegadon impact hits and thunderstomp, right?)

Skinks managed to kill off a chaos knight, and they failed their panic check and fled.

Then came the mighty combat phase, where both saurus units clashed with both large CW units, and our generals met in a challenge. None of the generals managed to wound eachother, but my Scar-vet one shot the foot sorcerer with his ASF, meaning that his transformed Exalted turned back to a normal warrior.

Man many dice are rolled when two spear-saurus are charged by two chaos warrior units!

Countless casualties fell, and I lost CR by one point, but passed my check. Next round, I charged my skinks into his side, and my steg into his other side, and he was annihalated except for his lord, 4 warriors and a champion, which made him forefit.

All in all, it was a cool game. I like the new rules a lot, but I can't seem to get why you would need a lot of magic. I could see a Lvl 2 for the +2 to dispel rolls with some one-pop magic item doing something funny, (especially in ogre armies with their Lvl 2 loremasters with a full lore of 3+ to cast spells, which basically lets you get a try at the whole lore every turn would be a must have) But a magic power-house? Is the interwebs just full of powergamers, whom actually find it fun putting their eggs in a basket for a chance of an auto-win determined only by lucky dice rolls, or is there something I am missing?

Memnos
25-05-2011, 16:11
Hey! Congrats. We all like to see non-standard builds work, because it means people who complain about how the game is always the same now can be pointed to as wrong.

Put up a few battle reports. I'd love to see how it works when magic goes against you. :D

Kyte
25-05-2011, 16:25
I'm trying a game with Ogres tomorrow against either dwarfs or wood elves.
I'm thinking of going semi-death star of 8 Ironguts with Tyrant and BSB with steadfast-negating Gnoblar-collumn support backed up by 2*6 AHW Bulls, and then a Butcher, a Gorger and a Scraplauncher (Seemingly broken with new template rules as well).

Dwarfs will not be a gun-line, as that's boring, but I think it will be a really fun game. I always loved Ogres, and played them all the time in late 6th, but gave up on them in 7th because they were awful. I think they'll do a lot better with the improved rules. Can anybody tell me if the standard that makes you reroll wound rolls for impact hits also works on stomp?

Also how does this Tyrant build sound to you?:

Tyrant
Heavy Armour
Luck Gnoblar
2*Sword Gnoblar
Sword of Striking
Greyback Pelt (Strider, -1 to be hit)
Greedy fist (6+ save and eats magic weapon/wizard level on successful save)
Talisman of Endurance

I'd also like to try the Thundermace, but 55 points for a weapon is a bit much out of the allowance, I think... How'd you go on making a tyrant that goes best against normal troops, but also ok in Challenges?


Thanks in advance.

- Kyte

N810
25-05-2011, 16:34
Congrats on the with Kyte, :D
I think you will find your
Ogres greatly improved in 8th.

Seabo
25-05-2011, 16:40
Grats on the first game win!
However, you were fairly lucky with his magic. Just wait till you go up against a Slann Life Mage or Lore of Shadow Miasma/Pit Spam...
Magic can be extremely brutal.
As far as the Ogre Tyrant goes if you wanted to go with the Thundermace you could take Armour of Silvered Steel. Comes out to 100pts and the Tyrant now has a GW that can also template and a 2+Save. Pretty Survivable.
There is also Fencer's Blades, HA, Trickster's Helm and Mawseeker. 6 WS10 attacks, T6 and force a reroll if wounded. Extremely survivable ;)

Kyte
25-05-2011, 16:58
Next time I play Lizards, I'll take a Loremaster Life slann to see how it goes, although I struggle to see how all those points (3-400 for slann and about the same for TG) bunker would do much better than spending those points on troops.

Maybe it is not magic, but characters in general that are overrated? BSB is golden, but otherwise, I'd say as manu saurus as possible would be the way to go. Ideally in units of 30-36, supported by Salamanders, skinks and the occasional Steg would be the ultimate build... Like Bloodletter spam in a Daemon army...

N810
25-05-2011, 17:20
I hear units of 6 kroxigors in two ranks (3 per rank),
make for great shock troops and flankers.
(Similar to Ogres)

EndlessBug
25-05-2011, 17:30
although the most fun part of a game was when the disc flew behind my line, causing terror checks to most of my units, me not failing a single test (I don't think I ever failed a cold blooded leadership test within the BSB bubble...)

With the Disc gone, I could march once again, which was nice, as the march block of my two main units for two turns, while his army didn't move significantly closer slowed down the combat quite a bit.

Uhm, not sure if its me reading this wrong but...

Terror - isnt as it was in 6th, you only take it when he charges you now. There is no Terror bubble, meaning it's pretty rubbish on a Sorcerer on disc.

Marching - on a successful Ld test you can march regardless of enemies within 8". More likely than not this'll be fine for you.

As for the magic, glad to hear it worked good for you! An observation is that although Tzeentch magic is bad, it can as you've done be soaked up. Other magic, such as Purple sun, Mystifying Miasma, Enfeebling foe, Withering, Mindrazor would mess your day up.

Ever been hit by a unit of 20 Black Guard with Strength 9? assuming minimum attacks (5 wide saurus, 7 wide BG) that's (with Caulron + 1 attack) 28 attacks = 24 hits (re-roll) = 20 wounds = 17 dead saurus! (assuming hand weapon and shield parry)

I'm trying to say, sure the no magic works against damaging spells, but those augment spells and hex spells will mess your day up.

also, Slann are nasty as these days, Ld 10 (std of discipline), almost neutering the enemies magic phase on his own. and a BSB for a bargain price. Although as you've proven they arent essential, they are definately the best!

Kyte
25-05-2011, 17:54
No terror bubble, and no march block with passed LD test? Man, I missed some notions reading the new book. I'd have totally wrecked him then... But on the other hand I did anyway.

You're saying TZ magic is bad? Back in the days of Storm of chaos I remember MSU Tzeentch armies were da shizz when you could lay out 20+ PD in a 2000 point army, but sadly these days are gone. I still think the lore is potentially devastating though. Relatively low casting values for today's standards, and especially the spell where the unit attacks itself could be especially devastating to horde infantry. I remember somebody whining on a forum over this spell versus skaven.

If I ever used a slann, should I then run him ethereal regenerating with best possible ward on his own, or get him temple guard? Also can he take the Arabian carpet? He is classified as infantry in the rulebook, but I think it's a bit cheesy combo.

Personally I never found Temple Guard+slann power-houses to be that much effective, as the main purpose of the TG basically is standing behind the main battle line for the slann to cast spells, actually hoping for them never to get in combat. I'd also rather keep General and BSB seperate, as I often find it's better to be able to split the LD bubbles into two when needed. Also Scar Vets rule! Shame they can't take other magic items than their banner though. How come some BSBs can do that and some cannot? Is it due to some army books written in up to two editions back, in which norms have changed?

I'm not sure I understand how spellcasting in combat works, as I'm used to mages not being able to cast neither when in combat, nor on units in combat, and the passage in the book seems rather cryptic and spread over many different fractions of the chapter.

also, can anyone clarify whether duplicate dispel scrolls is still legal?

scruffyryan
25-05-2011, 18:15
I run my slaan with loremaster and bonus power die base, then depending on if im actually scared of the magic i may be facing (which means usually as my usual opponents are skaven, high elves, and chaos) I throw becalming in. Regen is pointless nowadays as you come with a 4+ ward and can only take one or the other.

Ethereal is for when you're running a slaan on his own

My usual slaan kit out

Slaan, Becalming cogitation, focused rumination, focus of mystery, cupped hands of the old ones/book of ashur (depending on if i run light or life) BSB, std of discipline.

Yes expensive, usually worth every point as you then do not actually need any other characters in the army.

Edit: and dispel scrolls are one per army now.

Night Bearer
25-05-2011, 18:26
Sorceror on foot with Dispel scrolls (We weren't able to find any rulings on whether multiple dispel scrolls are allowed in 8th or not, so I let him buy two, knowing they would be useless with my magicless approach)
You can only take one of any item. DS lost their exemption to this in 8th edition. I believe it's why there's now a variety of scrolls in the common magic items now.

Kyte
25-05-2011, 18:26
can see why with the dispel scrolls... With unlimited scroll caddies, spamming could be broken...

N810
25-05-2011, 20:04
Sadly they FAQ'd it so that the Slann may neither use the Arabian carpet or use the Beast Spel to turn onto a dragon, presumable because while he is infantry,
he is riding the Panaquin and therefore is mot considered to be "on foot".

While there can only be one dispell scroll,
you can also equip other mages with:
the cube of darkness, feedback scroll, power scroll, ect....

EndlessBug
25-05-2011, 20:19
no, only 1 dispel scroll, can have a cube of darkness too though as has been pointed out.

you can cast certain spells while in combat. description of what is in the magic section. augments and hexs definately. not magic missiles. not sure on direct damage, dont think so though.

BSB taking both items - only daemons and Slann I think. Slann is a special case and daemons are daemons. fair enough, i can understand your reasoning so do it how you like :) Slanns tend not to die though.

no, cant use carpet. Slann solo is very viable still, take:

Becalming, Rumination of mystery, focussed rumination, ethereal, cupped hands, crown of command... in this instance BSB is also very handy! no he cant take carpet :(

it's by no means bad as such, but the standard lores imo are better. Sure Gate is nasty and pandemonium is handy but the lores have some nasty spells in them. Think about Mindrazor on a unit of Saurus, withering on empire so your sallie is killing on 2s, WS 10 I 10, ASF and +1 attack saurus. -d3 strength on a unit of chaos warriors (-3 on hand weapon and shields - strength 1!)

sure direct damage is good, but hexs and augments are the way forward. they amplify your other strong areas.

Kyte
25-05-2011, 21:11
That reminds me of something I recently learned while playing Heroes of Might and Magic III the other day. Even though I've known about this game since it came out in the late nineties, and played against one of my friends at least once a month for the last 3-4 years, only a few days ago did I realise that using blind on your enemy's most powerful creature stack, is far more effective than damage spells like lightning bolt or even Implosion. Especially because your opponent will have no choice but to spend his magic phase dispelling my blinding, if he would ever want to use his best stack... But that's completely off topic, although it shows a shift of paradigms within my gaming mentality.

Also before, when I played Warhammer, I always went for the sick magic weapons and unwoundable armours on my heroes for maximized killing power/resilience. Nowadays, I have realised that simple stuff like the sword of striking and an enchanted shield combined with common armour is actually almost as effective, and leaves lots of extra points for either funny magic items or more troops.

But then again, I usually played a cheesy powercreep in 6th ed with lots of Tzeentch power-dice spam and two very large beast-herds...

I thought up another Slann though.

Slann Mage Priest
Rumination
Mystery
Becalming
Higher Conciousness
Divine Plaque of Protection
Book of ashur.

He's expensive, as he comes in at a whopping 525 points, but he's a powerhouse, if my assumptions are right. My initial idea was to screen him from charges with skink skirmishers, and keep him behind my main battle line. Did anyone ever try this tactic? He's screwed if charged by a lord with a magic weapon on a flying creature though.

Also, I can't remember whether it's life or light that everybody seem to love so much. Both seem decent, looking at the spells in the BRB.

On the other hand, I could get two cheap slann for almost the same price. Just Conciousness and rumination? Both would go life or light depending on what's best, and you wouldn't have to worry about loremaster as they would get the whole lore anyway. This could have tactical advantages in form of more flexible line of sight, and generally splitting your opponent's focus. A miscast wouldn't necessarily have a chance of making me outo-lose. The only thing I really hate about warhammer is stuff that tips a battle by a single roll with a dice. Especially miscasts and killing blow have abysmal potentials, although from a fluff point of view, the ideas are pretty cool. Anyway, what would you recommend for a slann?

Also I read the parts on miscasts and IF as if now nothing bad happens if you roll a double 1, except it's not the optimal power level contribution, although if you roll a double 6, you first make an IF and then roll on the miscast table. Is this correct?

popisdead
25-05-2011, 22:15
Since the beginning of 6th ed, magic has not been this balanced. The fact you can get snake eyes a couple times in a row (I've seen pitiful magic rolling by my opponents in some games) as well as a highly destructive miscast table I have no issues with the magic phase at all. You cannot dispel 40 Glade Guard shots, why complain when a good spell goes off?

Kevlar
26-05-2011, 01:20
Looks like you went against a list with little magical offense, just tooled for defense. Of course that will work into your favor! He didn't take the game changing stuff, and anything he spent on magical defense was just wasted points against your army. Going against a HE teclis deathstar of doom, or a vampire spam list, or a skaven dual seer 13th spam list I think you would have problems.

BigbyWolf
26-05-2011, 15:19
I've been enjoying moderate success without magic in 8th. I find the fact that I get d6 worth of dispel dice instead of the two I used to get in 7th a lot more useful. I didn't take dispel scrolls either, so having those restricted to one per army doesn't bother me.

Kyte
26-05-2011, 22:53
I had the ogre game today. Another massacre. This time against dwarfs, but my opponent hadn't played dwarfs for years, so he was a bit rusty.

Man Ogres are awsome, I can say. Really love them, although I really missed Cold Blooded psychology tests.

I had the following:

Tyrant, Greyback Pelt, Sword of Striking, Heavy armour, luck gnob, 2 sword gnobs and 4+ ward

Bruiser BSB, 2 sword gnobs, +1 M Banner, Heavy Armour, Great Weapon.

Butcher, 2 Tooth Gnobs, Luck Gnob, Halfling Recipes, Wyrdstone Necklace

8 Ironguts, FC, Reroll impact hit wounds banner (5x2 with Tyrant and Bruiser)

2*6 Bulls with 2 HW and FC (3x2)

30 Gnoblars, Champion (5x6)

15 Trappers

2*2 Leadbelchers

Scraplauncher

Gorger

Slavegiant

He had:

Dwarf Lord with insane save and ASF

BSB with reroll charge distance-banner

Anvil of Doom

20 Warriors

25 Hammerers

2*20 Thunderers

30 Slayers

Cannon

Bolt Thrower

Stone Thrower

Gyrocopter

Worst thing was my tyrant build. Way less killy than I wanted him to be, and way to defensive. +1 to hit is no better than a Great Weapon or something similar. Next time I go against dwarfs, I'll go Siegebreaker, Glittering Scales and 4+ ward. Would pwn dwarfs.

I was only able to charge his general and BSB in their hammerer bunker with my death star in turn 3 due to an annoying reroll charge distance banner, but then they were completely trashed. Due to a challange between our lords (neither of wich could really damage each other due to lacking killing power) They had both characters and like 6 dwarfs left, and stayed in combat until next round, where only General was left and was run down due to not being stubborn.

I passified his cannon with my trappers, and it became a duel between grapeshot and sharp stuff, which I eventually won. His cannon did manage to do two wounds to my giant on his first turn, but otherwise the giant really shined. It was by far my best choise, as it kept absorbing warmachine fire, leaving my death-star intact. My opponent was far to afraid of him, and kept firing stone throwers and watnot ai it, but without any luck. It got into combat with his slayers, who had suffered heavy casualties from a leadbelcher volley the previous turn. On this same turn, a bull unit combo-charged with the giant, and with a 50 % chance of rolling flail with chain, I actually find it better than most monsters. If used as a support unit, and not as a hammer though.

Scraplauncher was fun, but pretty much hit and miss. Blew itself up on turn 5, but managed to kill a few dwarfs and wound a leadbelcher in other turns.
Leadbelchers were fun. Again, nice fire support, and great for combo-charging.

Gorger spent most of his time fighting against the runelord after killing his anvil guard. I liked him better in 7th ehere outnumbering with fear would have auto-broken the rune lord, but whatever. He held him up, so he coudln't strike his anvil for a couple of turns. That was good I guess.

His gyrocopter was damn annoying though. I think that alone, combined with one bolt thrower hit annihalated a unit of bills by acting like an annoying little wasp, flying behind them and killing them slowly with the steam gun.

It ended in a massacre because I killed slayers and hammerers with my charges, and overran into warriors and thunderers respectively.

Butcher went alone, but hid behind units, and finally got the charge off and tore down the annoying gyrocopter before he got grilled. He was quite fun, but the 3+ to cast RIP spells are not really any good, as they're easily dispelled unless your opponent forgets to, in which case I'd actually remind him to because the other way is cheese. The magic missile was golden though. I can't see running two or more though, as they're expensive, and only one halfling cookbook means that others will wear themselves out during a battle quite easily, or am I wrong?

I do have one question though: Can sword gnoblars be used in a challange? Technically they should be, as they're an upgrade to the character, am I right?

Thanks - Kyte

I really, really love Ogres in this edition though. All those attacks