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Ravenfeld
01-06-2011, 05:03
Sorry to post a second thread so soon after the first one, but I really wanted to take all the helpful advice from the last one and tidy it up and make a clean show of things. Not only that but I titled the other one wrong, so!

First off a big thanks to Eta, Jack of Blades, Nickthebear and Quinn for their helpful tips! You guys will find that I have made many of the changes you had suggested and then some!

Secondly, I just want to touch on my theme which is Nurglesque, obviously. I wanted to avoid faster units (after some deliberation) and wanted a slow and steady type of force. I also have had some awesome conversion ideas in my head for Nurgle Ogres for a long while now! There is fluff for the force but I won't hit you guys with it unless your interested.

I have three lists, 2250, 2500, & 3000. Now, to business!

2250 List:

Lords:
Putrius the Corpulant - 385
Chaos Lord
MoN
Armor of Damnation
Father of Blades
Necrotic Phylactery
Shield
Daemonic Mount

Heroes:
Rictus the Wretch - 200
Chaos Sorcerer
Level 2
MoN
Infernal Puppet
Third Eye

Ebolon the Bulbous - 185
"Counts As" Festus the Leechlord

Ballum the Bastard - 205
Exalted Champion
MoN
Battle Standard Bearer
Talisman of Preservation
Shield

Troops:
x18 Chaos Warriors - 389
MoN
Shields
Halberds
Standard Bearer
Musician
Banner of Rage
-- Ballum & Ebolon go here to provide the unit with Regen + Poisoned Attacks. Ballum can also accept challenges as needed if they arise in order to save Ebolon the trouble!

x19 Chaos Warriors - 411
MoN
Shields
Halberds
Standard Bearer
Musician
Blasted Standard
-- Rictus goes here where the Standard will hopefully add to his survivability!

x40 Marauders - 242
MoN
Great Weapons
Standard Bearer
Musician

x5 Warhounds - 30
-- I would love to add poisoned attacks for theme, but diseased dogs will have to suffice!

Rare:
Hellcannon - 205
-- Gunna customize this to be a bile spewing, nurgling infested, puke cannon!

Total - 2253

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2500 List:

Lords:
Putrius the Corpulant - 385
Chaos Lord
MoN
Armor of Damnation
Father of Blades
Necrotic Phylactery
Shield
Daemonic Mount

Heroes:
Rictus the Wretch - 200
Chaos Sorcerer
Level 2
MoN
Infernal Puppet
Third Eye

Ebolon the Bulbous - 185
"Counts As" Festus the Leechlord

Ballum the Bastard - 205
Exalted Champion
MoN
Battle Standard Bearer
Talisman of Preservation
Shield

Troops:
x18 Chaos Warriors - 389
MoN
Shields
Halberds
Standard Bearer
Musician
Banner of Rage

x19 Chaos Warriors - 411
MoN
Shields
Halberds
Standard Bearer
Musician
Blasted Standard

x40 Marauders - 242
MoN
Great Weapons
Standard Bearer
Musician

Special:
x6 Trolls - 270
-- Going to use the Bile Trolls from FW to represent these fellows. The Lord will ride around behind these guys both to protect him from cannons and to provide some stability to their stupidity.

Rare:
Hellcannon - 205

Total - 2497

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3000 List:

Lords:
Putrius the Corpulant - 385
Chaos Lord
MoN
Armor of Damnation
Father of Blades
Necrotic Phylactery
Shield
Daemonic Mount

Rictus the Wretch - 350
Chaos Sorcerer Lord
Level 4
MoN
Infernal Puppet
Third Eye

Heroes:
Ballum the Bastard - 205
Exalted Champion
MoN
Battle Standard Bearer
Talisman of Preservation
Shield

Troops:
x19 Chaos Warriors - 406
MoN
Shields
Halberds
Standard Bearer
Musician
Banner of Rage
-- Ballum still goes here.

x19 Chaos Warriors - 411
MoN
Shields
Halberds
Standard Bearer
Musician
Blasted Standard
-- Rictus still goes here.

x40 Marauders - 242
MoN
Great Weapons
Standard Bearer
Musician

x5 Warhounds - 30

Special:
x6 Trolls - 270

x6 Chaos Ogres - 360
MoN
Great Weapons
Chaos Armor
Standard Bearer
Musician

Rare:
Hellcannon - 205

Warshrine - 130
-- Decided to drop the MoN because I can still model it to be Nurgley without it and it is already pretty damn tough!

Total - 3000

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So thats it, all three lists. Hopefully semi-competitive and still fluffy. I am open to any and all suggestions and criticisms! Thanks for taking the time to read this post, I know its large and cumbersome!

Thanks again,
Raven

Eta
01-06-2011, 09:06
The 2250 list might be hard to play because of the low unit count and the lack of fast units. I'd probably not include the level 2 sorcerer in the list and get a unit of knights or three trolls and another two unit of hounds for the points.

The trolls will not protect your lord from cannon balls, nothing in the WoC list will confer a "Look out, Sir!" save for him as he is monstrous cavalry. You can let him ride directly behind the trolls and hope that the cannon ball gets stuck in the troll unit, but that's not the sort of attitude a Chaos Lord normally shows, is it? ;)

shakedown47
01-06-2011, 15:17
The first thing that springs to my attention is that your chaos lord is sporting two magical armours, which is a no-no. Despite the charmed shield being 5 points cheaper than a normal shield for a chaos lord, it has to go.

The second thing is why are you putting sorcerer's in units? If you miscast you're going to blow up some pretty expensive chaos warriors. I just leave all of my sorcs on foot and stay vigilant in keeping them in Look Out Sir! range of other infantry units. No one is going to waste shots at a T4, 4+, 4+ level 2 sorcerer when they have those other freight trains of pain bearing down on them. With the puppet, it's uncanny how many times you can modify a miscast to result 7, which does absolutely nothing if the wizard isn't in a unit.

I understand why you would put Festus in a unit, of course, but do you really think his ability to grant poisoned attacks are needed by a frenzied warrior unit with halberds? Regen is nice, but you can just duplicate a better version of that with Fleshy Abundance. If you really want Festus (and why not just call him Festus, how many unique individuals could there be in the old world with his same abilities?) in a unit, I would put him in the marauders to give them a bit more punch and survivability. And, if he does miscast, you're only taking out guys that are less than a third of the points of a warrior and the horde is big enough to soak up some of that damage and still be at fighting capacity.

Eta
01-06-2011, 16:28
The second thing is why are you putting sorcerer's in units? If you miscast you're going to blow up some pretty expensive chaos warriors. I just leave all of my sorcs on foot and stay vigilant in keeping them in Look Out Sir! range of other infantry units. No one is going to waste shots at a T4, 4+, 4+ level 2 sorcerer when they have those other freight trains of pain bearing down on them. With the puppet, it's uncanny how many times you can modify a miscast to result 7, which does absolutely nothing if the wizard isn't in a unit.


Somebody who doesn't waste a round of shooting to get rid of a lone wizard does not seem to be a clever general, especially in this edition of Warhammer. You won't get LoS! saves against normal missile shots anyway, so a mere four S3 wounds will on average kill the precious sorcerer.

Ravenfeld
01-06-2011, 19:28
The 2250 list might be hard to play because of the low unit count and the lack of fast units. I'd probably not include the level 2 sorcerer in the list and get a unit of knights or three trolls and another two unit of hounds for the points.

So you don't think I will be kneecapping myself too much by only having one squishy level 2 caster in the force? Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of fitting more trolls and hounds in where I can, especially since I will be investing in the FW Bile Trolls, just wanna make sure I am not relieving pressure from one angle only to create pressure in another. I would like to add two more units of hounds to every list tbh, but I can't spare the points!


The trolls will not protect your lord from cannon balls, nothing in the WoC list will confer a "Look out, Sir!" save for him as he is monstrous cavalry. You can let him ride directly behind the trolls and hope that the cannon ball gets stuck in the troll unit, but that's not the sort of attitude a Chaos Lord normally shows, is it? ;)

As far as the Troll's protecting the Lord with LoS, that wasn't my thinking, it was that the Lord uses the Trolls as a wall to protect himself. On the one hand it isn't the mighty hero strategy, on the other hand is he a shrewd Lord who sees Trolls as dumb enough to provide him some mobile protection. It isn't heroic, but it is practical! It is no guarantee, but since he has no ward save something is most certainly better than nothing. Not to mention the stupidity he mitigates by being on hand.


The first thing that springs to my attention is that your chaos lord is sporting two magical armours, which is a no-no. Despite the charmed shield being 5 points cheaper than a normal shield for a chaos lord, it has to go.

You know what it is, I keep forgetting Armour of Damnation is Armour because its effect keeps reminding me of something you would find on a talisman or enchanted item, I fixed it. A shame too as that Charmed Shield was some added Warmachine protection! Haha! Ah well, normal shield will have to do I suppose. Wish the MoN still added Toughness to Lords :D


The second thing is why are you putting sorcerer's in units? If you miscast you're going to blow up some pretty expensive chaos warriors. I just leave all of my sorcs on foot and stay vigilant in keeping them in Look Out Sir! range of other infantry units. No one is going to waste shots at a T4, 4+, 4+ level 2 sorcerer when they have those other freight trains of pain bearing down on them. With the puppet, it's uncanny how many times you can modify a miscast to result 7, which does absolutely nothing if the wizard isn't in a unit.

While I can see your point I find it is pretty risky to have champions out on their own, especially those lacking in ward saves. While a unfortunate miscast could result in the loss of some warriors, a loss of the sorcerer in question could hinder me just as much. Its a toss up really, I will run it this way for awhile and if I find that I am miscasting and chewing up my warriors often enough i'll change my strat!


I understand why you would put Festus in a unit, of course, but do you really think his ability to grant poisoned attacks are needed by a frenzied warrior unit with halberds? Regen is nice, but you can just duplicate a better version of that with Fleshy Abundance. If you really want Festus (and why not just call him Festus, how many unique individuals could there be in the old world with his same abilities?) in a unit, I would put him in the marauders to give them a bit more punch and survivability. And, if he does miscast, you're only taking out guys that are less than a third of the points of a warrior and the horde is big enough to soak up some of that damage and still be at fighting capacity.

I noticed the halberds I had on there and thought to myself "That is slightly overkill isn't it?" But then I figured if I am gonna model them with halberds anyway I may as well use em that way. The poisoned attacks will just add that extra oomph is monsters decide to get cheeky with me, and the regen being there passively means that I can cast something other than fleshy abundance, and that is even if I get fleshy abundance in the first place. It also means that I can throw Abundance on my second warrior unit to have two 3+/ 4+++ units instead of just one, ya know? I also think the poison would be just as effective on the marauders due to their great weapons. Both them and the warriors are hitting at str 5 and the marauders have numbers that can make up for the lack of the regen save. I will concede that once again the unfortunate occasion where a miscast does occur the marauders can soak it a little better, so I may try him in there for that reason. I'll play around with it!

Thanks for the replies so far!
Raven

PS: I am surprised no one has commented on my Ogres or anything, back in 7th people were really against them. I suppose Stomp added some appeal? I am hoping to use the Warshrine on the Ogres to hopefully make them that much more beefy, but in the end I think i'll use it on whatever would benefit from it the most.

CrimsonLord
02-06-2011, 02:38
The lord characters are expensive and might want to think about adding at least one chariot. You get 4 s5 attacks for basic cost. I would drop one unit of warriors and use a unit of 15 chosen, very nasty with MoN. Can marauders even have great weapons or do you mean flails?

shakedown47
02-06-2011, 02:52
Somebody who doesn't waste a round of shooting to get rid of a lone wizard does not seem to be a clever general, especially in this edition of Warhammer. You won't get LoS! saves against normal missile shots anyway, so a mere four S3 wounds will on average kill the precious sorcerer.

We'll chalk up the disagreement to playstyles being different in the regions we game in. Around here, most non-warmachine units are in combat or severely threatened by combat by the end of turn 2. If I'm playing my dark elf friend who routinely uses two units of 20 repeater crossbowmen and he decides to shoot at my lone sorcerer instead of taking steadfast-breaking ranks off of my marauder hordes, I'll gladly thank him. To start with, I'll never leave a character open to less than a -1 cover modifier, and more likely a -2. If he fires all 40 shots at my lone sorcerer assuming long range, not moving and a -2 cover modifier, he's likely to not quite hit him 7 times, let's be generous and say 8.

So my sorc has been hit eight times, and I flub his LoS! rolls (my book says I get them, on page 97) so that he gets hit 5 of those eight times. The other 3 shots get pushed onto my marauders, killing 2. His to-wound rolls on my sorc give him two 5's, and I save one of them. So for his efforts he has put one wound on a 155 guy (as I run them) and killed two guys of a 40-man marauder horde. Neither my combat ability nor my magic offense or defense has been harmed in the slightest. Now, if he had put those same 40 shots into just one of the marauder hordes, assuming long range, he likely might have killed 9 or 10 of them with just average shooting. Might not sound like much, but it could make a difference when those 30 remaining marauders formed 10 wide make contact with his 25 warriors ranked 5 wide and I fail to reduce him to 2 ranks.

Now of course I was just being very vaguely statistical with those examples, and sure it's possible 40 crossbow shots could put 9 or 10 wounds on a lone T4 guy, but of course that's highly unlikely and also that's using pretty elite shooting. People play how they play, but I like to be more or less certain of the outcome of every decision I make for my units. I buy Chosen because they are reliable points-denial and they do a lot of damage, but I wouldn't put them in a position to fight a 20-strong black guard unit to the front knowing that 10 cold one knights were going to charge them in the flank when the black guards make their inevitable stubborn test. I put my Chosen into combats I know they will steamroll whenever possible, not when I think the outcome is going to come down to the wire (unless it's the end of a nail-biter game, of course. Hail Marys can happen, after all!) Similarly I believe shooting units are best used to weaken enemy combat units/kill harassing units before the mainline combat guys have to go to work; using 300-400 points of shooting to kill one sub-200 point guy, if it leaves the shooting units open to vastly increased later-in-the-game destruction odds, doesn't seem like a wise investment to me.

Ravenfeld
02-06-2011, 06:41
Are Marauders necessary?

I know every competitive list has them and they are really powerful for their points AND they provide me at least one large horde block in an army of small elite blocks, but could I still be competitive without them?

I ask for three reasons:
-- I don't like the models
-- I would have to heavily (heavily mind you) convert them to be nurgley to a point where I am satisfied, and that can be costly and time consuming.
-- They don't come with Great Weapons so that involves yet more money to kitbash them and get them into shape.

The freed up points could get me a chariot and some hounds, a small unit of Chosen, or another small unit of warriors... I would love to hear your thoughts.

PS: Would 15 Chosen be as killy as 40 Marauders?

shakedown47
02-06-2011, 13:02
Are Marauders necessary?

I know every competitive list has them and they are really powerful for their points AND they provide me at least one large horde block in an army of small elite blocks, but could I still be competitive without them?

I ask for three reasons:
-- I don't like the models
-- I would have to heavily (heavily mind you) convert them to be nurgley to a point where I am satisfied, and that can be costly and time consuming.
-- They don't come with Great Weapons so that involves yet more money to kitbash them and get them into shape.

The freed up points could get me a chariot and some hounds, a small unit of Chosen, or another small unit of warriors... I would love to hear your thoughts.

PS: Would 15 Chosen be as killy as 40 Marauders?

I think you can be competitive without marauders, but you'll have to be much more careful about deployment and what combats you stick your armor into. Personally I think the models are fine, certainly "good enough" but if you don't like them then you're the only one who can reconcile that. As far as converting great weapons goes, I wouldn't bother. My marauders (I use 120 in my current list) are armed with great weapons, but the models themselves have flails, hand weapons and shields, extra hand weapons and yes, a few converted great weapons. I think of marauder hordes as, well, a horde of marauders sweeping down out of the north, ragtag but loosely disciplined at the same time. I don't get any flack for not being 100% WYSIWYG because every marauder in my army is kitted the exact same way so there couldn't possibly be any confusion, and in my opinion the variety of weapons types looks much much cooler than if they all had flails, or all had GWs.

As for what is more killy between Chosen and Marauders, it just depends on what you're fighting. Against goblins for instance the two units will kill the same number of models (unless the Chosen have the +1 attack blessing.) You'll take more casualties in return on the marauders, but you should still win combat by a fair margin and you're more likely to break steadfast with 40 marauders than you are with 15 Chosen. As your enemies get more elite, though, the Chosen of course start to shine. Chosen hit almost every unit in the game, and several characters, on 3's, so they mow through elite elven infantry with the same ease as they do with gnoblars. There are, however, situations with some elite units that you would rather have marauders. Against a Keeper of Secrets, for example. Unless the Chosen have +1 T or are your typical Tzeentch bunker build, the Keeper kills them as easily as it does marauders. Similarly, 15 Chosen is a small and vulnerable-enough unit that I wouldn't want them to take a charge from, say, 10 Cold One Knights, because you can expect to have 8 or 9 casualties out of that charge, something 15 men can ill-afford but 40 men can soak up with ease.

Ravenfeld
02-06-2011, 19:21
Thanks Shakedown!

Despite that I am still left mulling over what I can do. Right now I do like my list but I wish I could squeeze in more hounds and a couple of chariots, let alone some Chosen! This is what happens when you play O&G and you're used to having enough points to get all of the units I like and in bulk! Dropping the Marauders would only allow me to get one chariot and some hounds or a bare bones unit of chosen anyway... I know the most logical thing to remove (at least from the 3000 pt list) would be the ogres to make some space for some Chosen and the hounds, but they are an integral part of my theme!

If you guys were to shift some points around for said chariots / hounds / chosen what would you do? I love the idea of deploying the hounds early to give me an edge in deployment (used to do that with wolfriders/spearchukkas) and with an elite force it seems doubly important. Any ideas would be helpful, thanks!

Ravenfeld
03-06-2011, 22:31
I'm really surprised no one else has any criticisms! This is gunna be my last call on the topic before I solidify the list and start purchasing models so please do throw any sticks into my spokes! Tell me how I can optimize and what I could swap around! Anything you can think of!

Thank you!