PDA

View Full Version : High Elf Always Strike First Rule



bama
01-06-2011, 15:19
I have a question. The High Elf army book states that High Elves have ASF with all weapons. The basic rule book explains both ASF and ASL in great detail. Great weapons have their own special ASL rule. The rule book states that if a unit has both the ASF rule and the ASL rule that the rules cancel out and that they swing at intiative. Does this mean that White Lions and Swordmasters swing at intiative? I know some people will say no, that the army overrides the basic rule book. But I actually don't seeing it overriding the rule book. What it does do is still make High Elves with great weapons very good. Since they swing on intiative they are faster than most races. All they lose is the rerolls.

FestHest
01-06-2011, 15:22
Read the HighElf faq, it will answer your question.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1610147a_FAQ_HighElves_V1_4.pdf

(They have ASF even with GW ignoring ASL, cheeating pansy elf :))

Night Bearer
01-06-2011, 15:27
I've never understood the confusion over this. Doesn't the Speed of Asuryan rule specifically state that HE always strike first "regardless of the weapon" they're using? (which to me implies their ASF rule ignores anything that would cancel it).

theunwantedbeing
01-06-2011, 15:39
(which to me implies their ASF rule ignores anything that would cancel it).

Ignores any weapon they carry you mean.
If they are given the ASL rule from some alternate source than a weapon they are carrying, then the Speed of Asuryan rule will not allow them to benefit from the ASF rule.

The VC nightshroud for example, or the Nurgle Daemonic Gift noxious vapours to name but two such ways to negate the high elf ASF rule.

Tregar
01-06-2011, 15:48
And the Arachnarok web flinger. Which no-one sane will ever bother taking...

bama
01-06-2011, 15:54
Carrying a great weapon doesn't override the ASF rule that the High Elves have, it simply modifies it so that they strike in intiative order. No one else in the game gets a great weapon that strikes in intiative order.

FestHest
01-06-2011, 15:55
Carrying a great weapon doesn't override the ASF rule that the High Elves have, it simply modifies it so that they strike in intiative order. No one else in the game gets a great weapon that strikes in intiative order.

No. Read the (this)thread.

Tarian
01-06-2011, 16:03
Nobody, except High Elves, because SoA =/= ASF. As stated, read their FAQ, it answers it quite clearly.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
01-06-2011, 16:22
Carrying a great weapon doesn't override the ASF rule that the High Elves have, it simply modifies it so that they strike in intiative order. No one else in the game gets a great weapon that strikes in intiative order.

This is insane. They posted the FAQ in this very thread. It specifically says that High Elves ALWAYS STRIKE FIRST, no matter the weapon. Sheesh.

kaulem
01-06-2011, 18:26
This is insane. They posted the FAQ in this very thread. It specifically says that High Elves ALWAYS STRIKE FIRST, no matter the weapon. Sheesh.

Yes but do they have ALWAYS STRIKE 1st and ALWAYS STRIKE LAST? Maybe they can have both and then strike at initiative!

JUST KIDDING!... BREEATH IN... BREATH OUT!... and read my sig ;)

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
01-06-2011, 18:37
JUST KIDDING!... BREEATH IN... BREATH OUT!... and read my sig ;)

I'm calm, just confused as to some people and their inability to read the important information relating to the issue at hand before commenting.

kaulem
01-06-2011, 18:39
I know... it's just funny! I had that kind of argument with Skaven SiN and FAQ's and the person kept running circular arguments about the FAQ not overidding the BRB.

hobbs3023
02-06-2011, 02:03
Carrying a great weapon doesn't override the ASF rule that the High Elves have, it simply modifies it so that they strike in intiative order. No one else in the game gets a great weapon that strikes in intiative order.

You're wrong Bama. It's clear that the army books overrule the main rulebook. For further proof... see several sample battles in "White Dwarf" magazine to see gamesworkshop employees using the speed of asuryan rule to ASF w/ great weapons. Or read the strategy posts created by gamesworkshop which discusses the advantage of ASF w/ great weapons. This has been discussed to death all over Warseer. This rule is what makes High Elf units (especially swordmasters) truly elite.

slingersam
02-06-2011, 09:25
If they did not have this rule they would be expensive paper weights. Read the faqs as its stated in thier.

sorberec
02-06-2011, 13:32
I've never understood the confusion over this. Doesn't the Speed of Asuryan rule specifically state that HE always strike first "regardless of the weapon" they're using?

It's because a lot of people apparently don't know what the word "regardless" means.

I agree that it didn't need a FAQ answer but there are a few things that end up in the FAQs where you sit there and ask yourself how on earth some of the questions got asked enough at all to need FAQing when there are issues you can read on the forums that come up quite a bit that do not seem to have been addressed at all.

theunwantedbeing
02-06-2011, 13:55
If they did not have this rule they would be expensive paper weights.

Do we have to keep saying this as if it's some sort of magic wonder rule?

The FAQ just makes White Lions, Swordmasters and characters with Great Weapons more lethal. That's it. It doesn't magically make the army go from no good to good.

Even if you dropped the Speed of Asuryan rule utterly the army would still be workable. You'de just have to alter the way you used it in regards to combat.

Odin
02-06-2011, 14:27
Do we have to keep saying this as if it's some sort of magic wonder rule?

The FAQ just makes White Lions, Swordmasters and characters with Great Weapons more lethal. That's it. It doesn't magically make the army go from no good to good.

Even if you dropped the Speed of Asuryan rule utterly the army would still be workable. You'de just have to alter the way you used it in regards to combat.

Quite. To be honest, GW should get rid of the ill-advised SoA rule altogether, but at the very least it should follow the normal rules for ASF. It wouldn't stop WLs and especially SMs being quality units.

Mercules
04-06-2011, 14:17
Most of the time White Lions and Sword Masters would still strike first. What they would lose, which makes them rather nasty, is the re-roll against most people. They would still work fairly well as they are still wounding most troops on 2+ to 3+.

Spiney Norman
04-06-2011, 22:05
Quite. To be honest, GW should get rid of the ill-advised SoA rule altogether, but at the very least it should follow the normal rules for ASF. It wouldn't stop WLs and especially SMs being quality units.

I tend to agree, it would be simpler, but after the HE book had been out for a while they evidently discovered that High elves still needed a boost and so they released the FAQ to make GW armed elves better.

What was even more funny was the change to the way ASF vs ASF was handled (striking simultaneously when the FAQ was first released) which was then revised to in Int order when the dark elf book came out and they realised it made assassins crap vs High elves.

Although the prize for most idiotic micky-taking change to the ASF rule has to be the completely illogical and unnecessary re-roll which was added in the change to 8E, to make ASF units even better than last edition.

Tregar
06-06-2011, 12:07
Truly bizarre, it shall pass down as one of "those" rules.

Immune to psychology? Well, it doesn't mean you're immune to psychology, it means you can't flee. Obviously!

Always strikes first? Means you get re-rolls to hit, because, err, you're so fast... right!

calnen
07-06-2011, 20:49
Quite. To be honest, GW should get rid of the ill-advised SoA rule altogether, but at the very least it should follow the normal rules for ASF. It wouldn't stop WLs and especially SMs being quality units.

As it stands, both SMs and WLs make my Dwarf elites cry :( The power disparity is so big it's not even funny!
As has been said though, they're a big strength of High Elves, but they have weaknesses. (Drop a S5 rock on their heads and you find out what it is ;-))

RichBlake
08-06-2011, 20:51
Although the prize for most idiotic micky-taking change to the ASF rule has to be the completely illogical and unnecessary re-roll which was added in the change to 8E, to make ASF units even better than last edition.

The reason for the change is because striking first is now largely irrelevant.

Lets use Swordmasters as an example.

In 7th they won combat by killing everything in B2B and not getting hit back. If you charged them instead you could probably kill most of them in B2B to survive and even win the attacks back.

Now those 15 swordmasters run into my 40 man halbardier unit and because it's initative order they will always be striking first anyway no matter what. On top of that it gives no advantage as my men step over their comrades many corpses and fill the elves full of halbard.

On a I6 unit ASF is pretty pointless unless it does something other then make you strike first. Bare in mind almost everything with ASF has high I...

Tregar
08-06-2011, 21:53
Oh, how my Goblin Nasty Skulkers love it when they get their ASF re-rolls... with initiative 2...

calnen
08-06-2011, 22:16
The reason for the change is because striking first is now largely irrelevant.

Lets use Swordmasters as an example.

In 7th they won combat by killing everything in B2B and not getting hit back. If you charged them instead you could probably kill most of them in B2B to survive and even win the attacks back.

Now those 15 swordmasters run into my 40 man halbardier unit and because it's initative order they will always be striking first anyway no matter what. On top of that it gives no advantage as my men step over their comrades many corpses and fill the elves full of halbard.

On a I6 unit ASF is pretty pointless unless it does something other then make you strike first. Bare in mind almost everything with ASF has high I...

Assuming the SMs are 7 wide (although they could go 12 wide against your horde) they'll be getting 22 attacks. 15 hit, then 4 more from rerolls. Out of 19, 3 will roll a 1 to wound, so he kills 16 halberds. Your 24 attacks then hit with 12, wound with 8 and kill 7.

Next round the slaughter continues - he'll kill another 11ish, then lose 4 or 5 more in return. These two units will basically wipe one another out. (I've seen this happen - it's great fun for both players :)).

But, if the SMs go up against anything smaller than this - as the High Elf player will try to - then they can quickly either wipe out a unit, or kill enough that there are minimal attacks back. SMs are best sent against knights, characters and elites - against which they're brutal. But even against the horde of cheap troops, they do okay and will probably earn their points back.

Tregar
08-06-2011, 22:53
Well yes, but the point is that if they didn't get their bonus re-rolls, the Swordmasters would be far more likely to lose that fight.

RichBlake
09-06-2011, 01:18
Assuming the SMs are 7 wide (although they could go 12 wide against your horde) they'll be getting 22 attacks. 15 hit, then 4 more from rerolls. Out of 19, 3 will roll a 1 to wound, so he kills 16 halberds. Your 24 attacks then hit with 12, wound with 8 and kill 7.

Next round the slaughter continues - he'll kill another 11ish, then lose 4 or 5 more in return. These two units will basically wipe one another out. (I've seen this happen - it's great fun for both players :)).


Hey if you want our units to kill each other and mine cost 220 points and yours cost 255 I'm fine with that. As long as we repeat that for every unit we have it shall be a glorious victory!



But, if the SMs go up against anything smaller than this - as the High Elf player will try to - then they can quickly either wipe out a unit, or kill enough that there are minimal attacks back. SMs are best sent against knights, characters and elites - against which they're brutal. But even against the horde of cheap troops, they do okay and will probably earn their points back.

Fair point, though if ASF didn't have the re-roll then the outcome against an I3 unit would always be the same regardless of who charged as it goes in I order, hence why I said the rule needs the re-rolls to make it a rule worth having.

ASF pretty much only comes in useful if:

1) You have lower I then your opponent
2) You are the same I of your opponent

Even then it only matter in a challenge or if your opponent's attacks will actually kill models capable of attacking back.