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Spiney Norman
02-06-2011, 17:08
The big stabbas state that they always hit at strength 5 regardless of the strength of the model carrying it

The choppaz rule states that orcs with the rule gain +1 str on first round of combat

However the O&G FAQ says


Q: Does the Strength bonus from the Choppas special rule affect the
strength of the Impact Hits from the Armour of Gork and Big
Stabbas? (p33)
A: Yes as, unlike Impact Hits from chariots etc, it is the brute
force of the Orcs themselves causing the damage.

Does this mean big stabbas will in fact always hit at str 6 (since they always hit on the first round) and the FAQ very specifically states that the strength bonus from the choppas rule does affect the strength of impact hits from the stabbas? (despite the fact that it very obviously shouldn't)

Or is this simply a case of GW not knowing what they're own rules do and FAQing a problem which didn't exist and should therefore be ignored?

Malorian
02-06-2011, 17:10
They shouldn't have said that but they did. It's the rule now until they change it.

Morkash
02-06-2011, 17:24
Hmm, must have overread that one. Nice catch, Spiney. That gives a lot of Str 6+ hits on a Wyvern Warboss...

Spiney Norman
02-06-2011, 17:25
They shouldn't have said that but they did. It's the rule now until they change it.

Maybe they thought we needed a little something after they nerfed magic mushrooms. Not to mention Grom's chariot

Still the stabbas might actually be worth the points if they hit at str 6

Malorian
02-06-2011, 17:27
No, stabba still isn't worth it as it's drawbacks had nothing to do with the strength.

Even if it was str 10, with the new waaagh! you just don't get the charge as much, and being on savage orcs it's pretty much overkill.

A stabba on wolf riders would have been much more tactically interesting.

Tregar
02-06-2011, 18:20
Yes, that was the one bit of the FAQ where they gave a "nice" answer, and they even got that wrong (Who even asked that question to begin with?!). Still, what can I say, other than... buy 3 boxes of Savage Orcs if you play greenskins!!!!

Heck, forget about Wolf Riders, but Boar Boyz having a Stabba, now THAT would've been perfect.

Artiee
02-06-2011, 18:45
The rule for the Big Choppa "str 5 hit regardless of the strength of the model carrying it" is to state that the carried big choppa is str 5 rather than the str 3 for reg Savages and str 4 for Big Uns Savages. This is better then saying the Big Choppa is +2 to str for Impact. (that would be str 5 for reg Sav and str 6 for Big uns).

The FAQ is just making it known that Since the big choppa is carried then it gets the +1 str with the choppa rule.

Spiney Norman
03-06-2011, 10:01
The rule for the Big Choppa "str 5 hit regardless of the strength of the model carrying it" is to state that the carried big choppa is str 5 rather than the str 3 for reg Savages and str 4 for Big Uns Savages. This is better then saying the Big Choppa is +2 to str for Impact. (that would be str 5 for reg Sav and str 6 for Big uns).

The FAQ is just making it known that Since the big choppa is carried then it gets the +1 str with the choppa rule.

Sorry I don't really get what you're saying.

The Big stabba is not a close combat weapon, unless I'm mistaken the orcs carrying the stabba still count as being armed the same as the rest of their unit in CC. The only time the big stabba has a "strength" is for working out impact hits, so if it is effected by the Choppas rule it must always hit at str 6 (5+1) as it only ever hits in the first round of combat.

Artiee
03-06-2011, 11:50
I was explaining that GW didnt contradict themselves. And why the Choppa rule takes effect.

Tregar
03-06-2011, 12:50
Oh yeah, sure. But it would have made much more sense for them to just say "Causes impacts at S6", rather than "Causes impacts at S5" and expecting people to apply the Choppa rule to that.

Artiee
03-06-2011, 13:16
It would.. But they do that all the time. Give base stats and then something that modifies it.

Tregar
03-06-2011, 14:04
Of course. But it's still stoopid to say something like "always hits at Strength 5" and then expect people to increase that. Like how Tyrion was given a 1+ save and then told to increase it to 0+ (7th ed only). If something only EVER happens at a stat of X, tell us what that stat is after all the modifiers, and sure as hell don't say to "always" use the base stat and expect us to add in a modifier!

It's the same sort of idiocy that spawned the "unmodified" discussion, although I'll bet you think that's all clear and sensible too ;)

theunwantedbeing
04-06-2011, 16:39
Or is this simply a case of GW not knowing what they're own rules do and FAQing a problem which didn't exist and should therefore be ignored?

It's a case of GW not knowing their rules and giving stupid sloppy FAQ answers. Nothing unusual, they do it all the time.

papabearshane
04-06-2011, 20:30
I think they might have done this right as if they said it hit with str 6th all the time then there would be those out there asking if it was str 7 in the first round due to the Choppa rule. GW might have done somthing smart intentialy for a change.

Spiney Norman
04-06-2011, 21:44
I think they might have done this right as if they said it hit with str 6th all the time then there would be those out there asking if it was str 7 in the first round due to the Choppa rule. GW might have done somthing smart intentialy for a change.

No they haven't, they've issued a blanket statement for impact hits, specifying two very different situations; the armour of Gork, which is impact hits based on the strength of the model wearing the armour, and the big stabbas, which hits at a fixed strength regardless of the str of the model carrying it.

The choppas rule increases the strength of the orcs by 1 in the first round of combat, there is absolutely no reason why big stabbas should get a str increase because the strength of their hits is not based on the str of the orcs carrying it.

But thanks to some dumbass who didn't bother to read how the two different rules work before answering them the same we now have a totally illogical paradox, but hey, we also have str 6 impact hits :D

Tregar
06-06-2011, 12:05
Shhhh, before they amend it for the next version of the FAQ! Ah, who cares, virtually all Orc and Goblin players have already gone out and bought their 3-4 boxes of Savage Orcs already...

T10
06-06-2011, 16:12
No, stabba still isn't worth it as it's drawbacks had nothing to do with the strength.

Even if it was str 10, with the new waaagh! you just don't get the charge as much, and being on savage orcs it's pretty much overkill.


What drawbacks?

Malorian
06-06-2011, 16:33
What drawbacks?

The second line you quote answers your question.


The big stabba is just a waste of points as it only works on the charge (which you don't get as often) and is best against monsters (that have better movement than you) and in the end savages are so killy that extra impacts are overkill.

BEEGfrog
06-06-2011, 17:16
There are several occasions where GW overrule its own rules incorrectly in FAQs, this is one where they make 2 mistakes in the same FAQ.

1) Saying a strength amendment affects a fixed strength attack. The big stabba should be ruled like a bow where the strength of the weapon is irrelevant to the strength of the weilder.

2) Saying that a bonus that happens during the first round of combat affects impact hits which happen before the first round of combat.

If the big stabba should count the choppa rule then they should also amend the text to say that the choppa rule applies.

AMWOOD co
07-06-2011, 02:50
There are several occasions where GW overrule its own rules incorrectly in FAQs, this is one where they make 2 mistakes in the same FAQ.

1) Saying a strength amendment affects a fixed strength attack. The big stabba should be ruled like a bow where the strength of the weapon is irrelevant to the strength of the weilder.

2) Saying that a bonus that happens during the first round of combat affects impact hits which happen before the first round of combat.

If the big stabba should count the choppa rule then they should also amend the text to say that the choppa rule applies.

While I agree with your first statement here, I have to disagree with the second. Impact hits do happen during a round of combat, they just do so before any other attacks are made. After all, challenges are declared during a round of combat, and that happens before Impact Hits. Impact Hits also benefit whoever made them in combat resolution.

But I do agree that they screwed up in having Choppa affect Big Stabbas. It should apply to the Armour of Gork, however.

T10
07-06-2011, 05:37
The big stabba is just a waste of points as it only works on the charge (which you don't get as often) and is best against monsters (that have better movement than you) and in the end savages are so killy that extra impacts are overkill.

The same principle applies when upgrading to spears or lances for cavalry models: It's an expensive unit upgrade that only grants a bonus on the charge, and it's a waste of points if the cavalry models are fighting something they'd totally pwn without them!

I don't think those actually qualify as "drawbacks". It's not as if taking the Big Stabba imposes some crippling penalty to the unit. It's dependent on getting the charge, which requires skill and/or luck, and as such it serves as an incentive to get a bit more involved in with how you move your troops around rather than just going autopilot.

-T10

Malorian
07-06-2011, 05:51
Cav will actually get the charge off often and get use out of their upgrade.

To me it's a drawback that I wasted points on this. Maybe it's the wrong term but to me that's certainly the negative side of that idem (it's uselessness).

Tregar
07-06-2011, 15:18
Thing is with the Savage Orcs is, that most the time they get the charge it's either against chaff, or another favourable match-up where a few S6 hits isn't going to make much difference at all. In the best-case scenarios, you're charging a monster, but that's very rare, or you're charging something fast and killy like Swordmasters, in which case if they're in ranks the extra kill won't matter, or if they're a thin line, then yes, you'll kill 1-3 and stop a few attacks coming back, which would kill at most 2 of your own Savage Orcs... so you could've just bought the 2 extra savage orcs in the first place without the big choppa ;)

Spiney Norman
16-06-2011, 16:05
Thing is with the Savage Orcs is, that most the time they get the charge it's either against chaff, or another favourable match-up where a few S6 hits isn't going to make much difference at all. In the best-case scenarios, you're charging a monster, but that's very rare, or you're charging something fast and killy like Swordmasters, in which case if they're in ranks the extra kill won't matter, or if they're a thin line, then yes, you'll kill 1-3 and stop a few attacks coming back, which would kill at most 2 of your own Savage Orcs... so you could've just bought the 2 extra savage orcs in the first place without the big choppa ;)

But maybe I'm willing to spend 20pts on making my unit look awesome. Yes I know I really should be more gamey, what you gonna do about it? ;)

Tregar
16-06-2011, 16:59
...my last Savage Orc opponent had the models in the unit anyway. Psych!

oldWitheredCorpse
17-06-2011, 11:15
Of course. But it's still stoopid to say something like "always hits at Strength 5" and then expect people to increase that. Like how Tyrion was given a 1+ save and then told to increase it to 0+ (7th ed only). If something only EVER happens at a stat of X, tell us what that stat is after all the modifiers, and sure as hell don't say to "always" use the base stat and expect us to add in a modifier!

Funny how that never happened to Settra's chariot in the previous armybook. It was the only chariot in the game without an armour save. In this edition, it's pretty much the same, but has a 4+ AS.