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Abhorash.
03-06-2011, 14:19
Hey guys, I'm the new guy to 40K, although being a fantasy veteran.I recently bought the Tyranids codex, learned most of the rules from the rule book and read the entire codex, and i was all like "wow, how can any one ever beat Tyranids?!" than i venture onto www.warseer.com (check the site out its awesome) and every one is saying that there like the wood eves of fantasy.. or that half there army is useless.. or that there just utterly terrible... i've watched some (recent) battle reports online from miniwargaming.com and I truly just don't see the weaknesses.. my 40K noobiness actually makes me think they are over powered... can someone please explain to me the Tyranids "tier" or why they are considered to suck in this edition? I just cant figure it out! Thanks boys.
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Threeshades
03-06-2011, 14:36
Well I think most of your questions will be answered as soon as you read other codices.

Tyranids just don't hold up in the grand scheme.

Let me pitch it to you:
-Hive tyrants while effective are extremely expensive for the level of power they put down
-Pyrovores do absolutely nothing to justify their points cost, they have hardly any better profile than your average infantry guy. Sure there's 2 wounds but that's countered by lots of other low stats, so after they shot their flamer once they will be taken out by either rapid fire or close combat. And for a single flamer shot and maybe a minimal chance of taking something down with acid blood or "Volatile" your 45 points are gone. That is if they ever make it into range for their flamer.
-Then we have liktors, who also die before they can contribute anything meaningful, as with their 5+ save they cannot survive a close combat with anything more than maybe a small heavy weapon squad. They can't charge the turn they hit the battlefield, and have to stand around waiting to be shot. Their special rule only ever has effect in 50% of cases, and even then it doesn't do much anymore.
-Termagants and Hormagaunts stink if you compare their points value to other armies. Termagants are saved by only the Tervigon who can buff them with its brood progenitor rule.
-Rippers are even more ridiculous as they don't only cost more than they should but also can't claim objectives, which only troops choices can, so they reduce your maximum number of available objective grabbers.
-Warriors (and also shrikes and raveners) with their 3 wounds are only powerfist fodder, and lose combat much easier thanks to such instant death hits and losing combat only means taking more wounds thanks to fearlessness. They can be good if used right but are far from effective. You're far better off with genestealers
-Harpies are overpriced and ridiculously easy to kill as they are hard to get any cover with and have little in the way of T, W and Sv
-Sky slashers are overpriced just like rippers, they have nothing going for them.
-T-Fexes have ridiculously high points costs they will have an extremely hard time to make up for, You pay for a very tough creature but what good is it, if it can't kill enough?
-Carnifexes lose in almost every regard to trygons and thats why they never find any place in a list.

This leaves you with a fairly small selection of acutally good units.

I would write more but i'm out of time right now, so more elaboration later.

EDIT: you could just request the thread to be moved by a moderator you didnt have to delete it -_-

Kurisu313
03-06-2011, 14:45
What about nids is it that you think are overpowered, exactly?

I must disagree with threeshades about hormagaunts - they're fantastically good imo.

Bestaltan
03-06-2011, 15:29
Well, take a look at my sig, and you'll see my opinion.

The issue people have is that the Tyranid codex plays so differently than any other codex released for 5th. It pretty much ignores how the rest of the metagame has played out for 5th. Part of that is because many players feel the codex was released well ahead of schedule. It just has that rushed feel to it. Also, the army has a STEEP learning curve, and is VERY unforgiving if you make a mistake.

That said, if you stick with it and know what you're doing with the army, I believe the codex is one of the most stupidly overpowered codices I've seen in 40k. Since the codex was released, I've won/placed in almost every tournament I've used my Bugs in (only exception was a couple months ago, when I decided to try something new......Goes back to the steep learning curve). That amounts to about 7 local/regional tournaments where I've placed in the top 3. Not bad for a "useless" codex.

Spoik
03-06-2011, 15:33
One of the problems with Tyranids as they stand is poor internal balance: from a competetive standpoint, some choices are just plain better than others. Add to this the fact that many of the best choices are competing for the same slot, and you see an imbalanced army.

The 'top builds' of the moment tend to feature plenty of anti-armour firepower, and that's great at wiping out monstrous creatures and warriors.

HOWEVER, in fluffy, friendly games, which I (perhaps erroneously) still consider to be the standard, those big bugs can be very nasty, and the whole army fares much better.

In a nutshell (or a slime-encrusted carapace, if you prefer), if you want to win tournaments, Tyranids are probably not for you. If you want to play more relaxed, fluffy games, they can be versatile, fun and competetive, and you'll have fun.

sycopat
03-06-2011, 15:36
I don't think tyranids suck.

There's a lot of "conventional wisdom" that says they suck, but most of that is internet opinion and based on nothing concrete as far as I can tell. The main problem a tyranid general has is which elites to take, because almost all of them (bar pyrovores) can be lethal if one understands how to make best use of them.

What the tyranids don't have is anything ridiculously ott. A lot of their stuff is hampered in some way by being fragile, or expensive, or have different uses depending on the situation. Tyranids are, imo, a more situational army, one battle plan will never suit all opponents the way it does with Guard or Wolves or even most space marine armies, and the tyranid strategies have to be able to absorb casualties in a way other armies usually don't, although to make up for this they have many tools to do most jobs.

Tyranids can't put all there eggs in one basket, or all their fate in one plan, but if the tyranid player is canny, any one of his eggs can hatch into a horrible facebiting monster.

In truth, only pyrovores suck.

Theocracity
03-06-2011, 15:42
Internet wisdom has a tendency to blow legitimate concerns way out of proportion. I'd say a third of the complaints stem from legitimate weaknesses against the most prevalent metagame, a third stem from poorly written / edited rules in the codex, and a third stem from players who find the codex doesn't feel / play like they would prefer it to.

As Bestalan has said, the codex can be effective - it just has a steeper learning curve, and certain builds that look fun aren't optimized for tournament quality opponents. If you're a new player, though, you'd probably struggle against those until you learn the ropes anyway.

If you like the style of the Nids, don't be scared off by Internet wisdom. Play games for fun, learn what works for you and what doesn't. Become the player everyone underestimates! :D

Vaktathi
03-06-2011, 15:47
Tyranids aren't *awful*, but they aren't very good either.

This stems from several issues. Many of their units are just plain overcosted (Carnifex, Harpy, gaunts) or don't work very well (Lictor, Pyrovore) and with others they have to choose between vital anti-tank and their utility units as they seemed to cram everything into the Elites slot that had any sort of useful value. Warriors, a unit that often gets flak for being so vulnerable to S8 weaponry I feel actually aren't that bad, but really could have used a 5+ invul save (call it will of the hive mind or whatever or a less powerful Zoanthrope shield) to mitigate some of that Instant Death issues.

Additionally, they often lack the speed of many other armies, finding it difficult to get units into position due to the lack of mechanization.

The FAQ ruling that Primes could not join Warriors in a pod and that Shadow in the Warp didn't effect psykers in transports certainly didn't help.


The book all in all *feels* very rushed, as though the entire thing were done almost as an afterthought to follow up on another product. My *guess* would be as they started working on the redone Space Hulk they decided to quickly put out a new Tyranid book to follow it up, but hadn't really planned for it strategically.

Dead Man Walking
03-06-2011, 16:22
Threeshades lists units that don't live up to expectations, but that doesn't mean the army sucks, it just means you have to build your list a certain way to make them win. To throw another log on the 'unit sucks' bit there is also Genestealers who have init 6 which is highly impressive but if they actually have to go into terrain then they strike last regardless, then you have the genestealers who can arrive in terrain but still stuffer from terrain if they go into combat. So we have these guys that excel at hiding in terrain but if they actually fight in it then they get killed off. (Durh).

However if you avoid the stuff that sucks and take the stuff that doesn't suck then you will be fine.

The reason I stopped playing tyranids was because GW took all the models that were useful in the last edition and nerfed them harshly and then released awesome rules for the new models they released. "Okay everyone has a bunch of Carnifex so I am gonna make it suck, and then I will put a creature that is actually better than the carnifex (which will be less points and cost more money than the carnifex) in the game so that everyone will buy these models. I am a Genius! KA-CHING!!!!

Keep the money train rollin even if you have to roll over your customers! :skull:

djhowitzer
03-06-2011, 16:24
as an eldar player i live in hope of the day i face a tyranid army. mind war cast on a carnifex = a dead carnifex

Dead Man Walking
03-06-2011, 16:35
If you like the style of the Nids, don't be scared off by Internet wisdom. Play games for fun, learn what works for you and what doesn't. Become the player everyone underestimates! :D

I have to agree here, I have played many 40k armies and when I really wanted to get into Tyranids everyone told me that the last edition book wasn't very competetive. I went around asking knowledgable competetive players what works and what doesnt work in the tyranid army (Mostly because I dont like buying models that end up sucking.). Then I went through the book and reworked army the army list to what I wanted, then built the army.

I took my army to several tournaments and ended up at top tables in every single tournament. I won a few tournies and then suddenly other competetive players who said Tyranids were not competetive started fielding nid lists in tournies that looked exactly like mine. :skull:

Obake123
03-06-2011, 17:00
I've only played Tyranids once.

I somehow got a draw, but overall, my army got brutalized by the encounter. If there had been another turn, I'd have lost.

I think its like everything else; If you're up against someone who knows their stuff, any game will be a challenge with any Codex. Tyranids just take a bit more thought than "I'll just down load a cookie cutter army from the net."

ghoulio
03-06-2011, 17:11
For me, these are the reasons why I think current Tyranid Codex is one of the poorest quality products GW has put out in years:

- Overcosted Monstrous Creatures
- Horrible internal balance
- Some of the worst written rules in GW history (the book needed an FAQ/Errata before it hit the shelves)
- No assault grenades except on an Initiative 1 monster (Carnifex) and Lictors
- Incredibly cramped elites section which in turn greatly limits your army choices since all your viable anti tank is in this section
- Designing an army with this book is more about figuring out which units to avoid and which units you pretty much HAVE to take (big surprise all the ones you HAVE to take are new entries with new models) instead of designing an army that fits your play style like the Vanilla Space Marine book or the Dark Eldar codex.
- A FAQ that kicked a poorly written codex in the nuts even harder, coming out with bizzare rulings on certain things and completely nerfing others that no one even had a problem with (we are the only codex in the game whose Psychic Defense is foiled by a tin can...even opened topped ones!)

As Vaktathi mentioned everything about this codex feels very rushed an unfinished (which I would be surprised if that isn't the case).

If you want to just play fun games and are more interested in the hobby aspect of the hobby and don't care about winning, then the Tyranid book is fine as it has one of the stronger model ranges out there.

If you are more of a competitive person and a book full of things/rules that don't make any sense frustrate you then go with something else :)

Captain Idaho
03-06-2011, 17:34
Part of the reason people don't like Tyranids is because there aren't any obvious "net-lists" out there and players don't like to graft to win games. They would rather have a list where each unit and combination is obvious in it's use, like Thunder Hammer Terminators, and anything else is just rubbish in comparison.

Personally, I think Tyranids are a pretty good list, they just have to be used properly and in a different way to all the other armies.

Ulrig
03-06-2011, 17:40
As I and many others feverishly discussed in 40+ page threads, the new nid codex is nothing short of awful, and out of it you have mediocre army that will get codex creeped to crap many years before you will see a new codex.

I would avoid them like the plague.

Threeshades
03-06-2011, 17:49
Okay time for the rest of my rant.

And yes I do realize Tyranids are not weak in the metagame or useless but their codex still sucks

and here is why:

A lot of units are simply overpriced for their effectiveness. As i've already specified, and that leaves players with a limited range of units to choose from.

Things that arguably work (usually only with a really good plan) are:
Warriors, Hormagaunts, Harpy, Shrikes, Raveners, Carnifexes but the only setup for these is with two pairs of devourers.

Things that definitely work are:
Hive tyrants (plus guard), Zoanthropes, Genestealers, Tervigons, Tyranid Prime, Venomthropes, Termagants (with a Tervigon around), Gargoyles (Termagants with jump packs and a special CC attack that can wound anything with a T value for +1 point? Hell yeah!), Trygon, Biovores

For the former list you really need to know what you are doing and sometimes what you are up against.
The latter list is stuff you can field without thinking too much about it.

And then there are Hive Guards. Hive guards are almost irreplacable, they're the only thing that provides reliable ranged anti-tank power for a reasonable price. For tournaments these are obligatory, and that is one thing that nags me, I hate to be forced to take a unit, especially if its a unit with 50 points per model, which drags down the total number of creatures in your swarm, and last I checked tyranids are supposed to be a horde army. I'll get to that later.

The other thing that nags me even more are those units you can't take at all if you want to have an effective army, especially if they contain two of the most flavourful tyranid units in the game: Carnifex and Lictor

For me (and I'm not the only one here) lictors and carnifexes belong to the maion attractions of the entire swarm and now I'm sitting here trying to piece together an army list, but I just find no space for either of them, carnifexes might see a little play every now and then, if it weren't for trygons being so much better at almost everything. The only thing a carnifex has over a trygon is 40 points less cost and S9 and with that the ability to instant kill multi-wound models with T4 (or 5 on the charge if the fex has adrenal glands), but almost every other stat is lower, and Multi wound T4-5 units are not as frequently encountered as one would like to believe. Also options don't help because most of them instantly put the fex at the same cost as the trygon, if not higher.
The unit selection while certainly having powerful units, is simply terribly balanced and limits your choice. Even from thequite extensive looking list of effective units you will have to cut away ever so often to make sure you have enough anti-tank power nad general cover fire, because a lot of units simply don't provide in that regard.


Then there is the horde factor. Tyranids, as you know if you have ever read a short story, a novel or even just a description of them, are supposed to be a horde army, so swarms of small critters being accompanied by larger monsters. But what does the codex make of that?
In order for your army to build any semblance of pressure you will need hive guard, genestealers, venomthropes, tervigons, trygons, hive tyrants and tyrant guards, Zoanthropes...
All units ranging from expensive to very expensive, and wether justified or not these point costs drag the model count down, very far turning tyranids into more of an Elite army that has a few throwaway critters here and there.


Next on the list: The codex is BLAND. Let me just say it straight, while previous incarnations of codex tyranids gave the player the option to customize a lost of different creatures (Hive tyrant, Hormagaunts, Termagants, Genestealers, Warriors and most of all Carnifexes) towards a certain purpose but while for some of these it still seems they are quite customizable, a LOT of this has been lost with the current codex. Instead tyranids have most of the Statline-upgrades already included. With the points cost by the way: a tyranid warrior now costs as much as it did then, upgraded to all the same stats, which altogether make you pay for stuff you don't need: you don't need the BS 3 if you want a CC warrior and you don't need the Initiative or armor if you want to shoot from cover. So you generally pay for a lot of crap you don't need and from there you get to choose your weapons and two upgrades. It's just disappointing.

On top of that there are no fun toys in the army. Nothing out of the ordinary. Such a strange race as the tyranids, you would expect all sorts of wacky shenanigans from them, but nope. Tyranids only get the bare minimum, and if there is an unusual special rule, that you don't have to look up in the base rulebook, then it usually barely works, or belongs to a special character.
Let's look at other races, like dark eldar, who have hellions whose leaders can grab and carry off enemy independent characters, grey knights assassins who can pick out choses models from a unit with their sniper rifles, space wolf psykers who can just make stuff disappear into the ground and other fun abilities. Now I'm not moping because the tyranids lack over the top powerful cheese or something, no this is about them lacking unique abilities. All they ever get is universal special rules or some minor upgrade to a USR because someone thought "beasts" is too fast for a hormagaunt and "fleet" is too slow. Nothing funky, just generic blandness.


Lastly some of the new creatures are insultingly stupid. Hive guards shoot harpoons homing in on the enemy. Which wouldn't even bother me that much if it werent for these harpoons to be strong enough to easily punch through medium vehicle armor. If the ammunition is able to change its path in mid air, it will lose a lot of momentum and with that armor piercing power, most weapons in 40k while still unrealistic are at least designed to make some degree of sense, but not this.
And Tervigons? A giant pregnant monster giving birth to wasily twice its own body volume in termagants? And if that werent enough it does not even have giant glaring weak points by which it would be easily killed?
At least the harpy got less armour and toughness to represent its slighter build which is necessary to fly, but this guy gets all of that and is tougher than a carnifex?

Suspension of disbelief is one thing, Tervigons and Hive Guard are sheer stupid.


Altogether building a tyranid army is like standing in front of an ice cream truck with a lactose intolerance. Sure there is some nice lactose free stuff for you, but the really neat stuff you will never taste, unless you're ready for a bad belly ache.

And once you start eating, you notice you have a cold and can only experience a fraction of the taste.

Askepios
03-06-2011, 18:02
Obvious disadvantages Tyranids have in relation to other armies is that we're not mech'd, and we can't do multiple small units (MSU) very well. The types of lists you see (or that I see at least) doing well in competitive play utilise both of these army design concepts to create a force that is tough to kill. has redundancies, and presents lots of threats at once, making target prioritisation absolutely key, giving your opponent the opportunity to make a horrible mistake. Nids can't pull either of these tricks. Of course with an army comprised entirely of (what are supposed to be) organic killing machines you wouldn't expect to see any vehicles, but we need some compensation for that. Assault grenades, invulnerable or cover saves, robust psychic defence (Hell - we're supposed to be able to block out the Astronomicon, why are our psychic powers getting shut down by space marine librarians while their own powers run rampant?!?!) and reduced points costing on a few key units would make all the difference. That said the Doom of Malantai is definitely undercosted - lol!

Considering that Robin Cruddace must have written this book after he wrote the Imperial Guard codex, it doesn't exactly inspire confidence in him as a rules writer.

Simo429
03-06-2011, 18:03
Theres a stealer list knocking about at the moment which is horrendous.

A good player can still get a lot of joy from nids.

Peril
03-06-2011, 18:05
No Retreat really hurts them too.

Dead Man Walking
03-06-2011, 18:18
Lastly some of the new creatures are insultingly stupid. Hive guards shoot harpoons homing in on the enemy. Which wouldn't even bother me that much if it werent for these harpoons to be strong enough to easily punch through medium vehicle armor. If the ammunition is able to change its path in mid air, it will lose a lot of momentum and with that armor piercing power, most weapons in 40k while still unrealistic are at least designed to make some degree of sense, but not this.


So models that suck are stupid and if they are actually good at what they do (Hive guard=anti-tank) then they suck too? Unlike all other armies a tyranids ammo is not an explosive shell, it is a living creature. The harpoons are flying creatures who can change course without loosing thier impacts, you fire and it aims. Devourers are flying bugs that chew through thier targets armor. Other weapons are spores which explode in an AOE attack, its all biological weaponry. No shells.

You had me agreeing with you in your first post but this post just seems to tell me your unwilling to see the good in the book because you're too busy being pissed off about the bad.

Ulrig
03-06-2011, 18:25
Altogether building a tyranid army is like standing in front of an ice cream truck with a lactose intolerance. Sure there is some nice lactose free stuff for you, but the really neat stuff you will never taste, unless you're ready for a bad belly ache.

And once you start eating, you notice you have a cold and can only experience a fraction of the taste.

Epic Greatness

Threeshades
03-06-2011, 18:29
As i said suspension of disbelief is one thing but the hive guard just turned it into ridiculousness. You know they could have easily made it mor plausible by giving the harpoon its own means of propellation. But no instead they went with something that is already an implausbile concept (shooting spears through vehicle armour) and turned it even more implausible by having said spears change course in the air which would take significantly of their speed.

My problem is that the basic idea behind the hive guard's gun is already the opposite of what its supposed purpose is.

There are new good units i can certainly get behind, like the venomthrope. That thing is sensible and adds to the tyranids and their style, but the hive guard was obviously shoehorned in because mr Cruddace couldnt think of a way to make any of the existing units a good vehicle stopper. And even taking the hive guard rules there would be so many pssibilities to make something with a completely different fluff that would have made more sense and possibly even been cooler.

Bonzai
03-06-2011, 18:54
Many of the issues have been covered. Bad internal balance, some non-funtional rules, a FAQ that goes out of it's way to nerf certain things for nids that wouldn't be thought of twice for a Marine dex (Psychic defense working against units in transports, IC's being able to deploy with a unit coming in via a drop pod, etc...).

But also look at the 3 armies released after Nids. Blood Angels? Ok.. But DE and GKs? In one army you have a force that is fast, Mobile, chalk full of ranged poison weapons, and capable of enourmous amounts of fire. Then you have an army enirely equiped with weapons that ignore armor saves, cause insta death, and all kinds of buffs that nerf you further?

It's a rough time to be a nid. That said, there are some powerful units in the codex, which helps make it bottom tier 5th edition codex, but still better than some non-updated codex'es, though i have yet to lose to them with my Necrons. Take that as you will.

Megad00mer
03-06-2011, 19:44
The Tyranid Codex is a perfect example of a release in which almost every aspect was handled incredibly poorly. It's what's considered by many to be the worst overall Codex release in GW history.

Jan 2010: Tyranid Codex is released and immediately the community notices the problems. Many units seem terribly overcosted. Iconic units become laughable. (i.e.:Lictors). Older builds and options are rendered useless or illegal so Tyranid players are forced to spend tons of money on new stuff just to have a viable army. Key units and options have no available models to this day (Tervigons, Mycetic Spores, Lashwhips and Boneswords etc.) Numerous rules are poorly written, make no sense, flat out don't work in the actual game and/or are so vague they become open to interpretation. An FAQ is desperately needed just to make this book usable. Right out of the gate, the Tyranid Codex is considered an grossly underpowered book.

6 months later

July 2010:The Tyranid Codex finally gets it's FAQ, strangely enough on the exact same day as the Blood Angels who barely needed one yet waited half the time, as if GW didn't think the Tyranid FAQ important enough to release on it's own. This FAQ did fix certain ambiguities but also answered questions no one asked and nerfed certain parts of an already struggling book for seemingly no valid reason. Most Tyranid players scream a collective :wtf: across the internet.

Couple this with the two most recent army releases, Dark Eldar and Grey Knights, both of which have abilities that seem custom made to give Tyranids an incredibly hard time.

GW did everything it could to screw the pooch when it came to the Tyranids.

minionboy
03-06-2011, 22:13
I'm quite pleased with my tyranids actually, and they actually have been placing well in tournaments lately on the west coast. The problem with bugs is that their elites choices are pretty much all completely desirable.

If you want to get some good advise for playing tyranids, and don't want to filter through the usual Warseer negativity, go check out http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/

To answer the question though, the reason people consider tyranids usless/terrible/ineffective is a combination of the book not being super cheesy, a poorly written FAQ and people who don't fully understand how to play them. In the later respect, they are similar to dark eldar, a bad player will perform extra badly with Tyranids, though a good player can make them work quite well. Honestly, as far as the FAQ goes, if they would reverse their ruling on SitW and tyranid primes in spore pods, I'd be ecstatic.

Threeshades
04-06-2011, 00:22
To answer the question though, the reason people consider tyranids usless/terrible/ineffective is a combination of the book not being super cheesy, a poorly written FAQ and people who don't fully understand how to play them.

Comments like this really tick me off. I'm happy about tyranids not being super cheesy, the problem is the messed up balance and a bundance of useless units (as well as all the other things i carefully listed up earlier)

And if you think people like me dont fully understand them, enlighten me! I'd be more than happy to learn how to properly play them, but nobody ever who said "they dont know how to play nids" could actually provide anything useful on how to play them along with it.


The only advice i ever get on how to play nids "right" is by using the right units (like hive guard, trygons and genestealers etc).
But that's beside the point. What a lot of the pro-codex faction doesnt seem to realize is that the naysayers are not frustrated with the powerlevel but with the extremely limited choice and the bland options when it comes to putting together an army for a little combat effectiveness.

minionboy
04-06-2011, 01:08
The only advice i ever get on how to play nids "right" is by using the right units (like hive guard, trygons and genestealers etc).
But that's beside the point. What a lot of the pro-codex faction doesnt seem to realize is that the naysayers are not frustrated with the powerlevel but with the extremely limited choice and the bland options when it comes to putting together an army for a little combat effectiveness.

In case you haven't been paying attention, the top tier lists, namely razorfang and leafblower are just as limited in their unit selection. You'll never see a top razorfang list running units of fenrisian wolves, and I don't think you'll ever come across a leafblower with Roughriders... It's not that only a selection of units are effective, it's just that when you are going to play against stiff competition, you want to take the most efficient units for your points. When you are looking for the most efficient choice, yes, your other choices wont make it in the army, because they're less efficient. Get over it, this is nothing new and certainly not unique to Tyranids.

Walls
04-06-2011, 01:20
If Nids suck why are they on top tables so much lately?

I think it's more the same problem people have with Dark Eldar. Too many "Duurrr Razorbacks! Durrr 3+ save" guys jumping onto them thinking they'll win them every tourney. When they actually have to learn to play them, they get frustrated at not autowinning. All this "Only a few units are worth taking" thing is bull pooey when today's "meta" is all about spamming one thing: Razorbacks, long fangs, chimeras, etc.

Geep
04-06-2011, 02:29
Tyranids don't suck overall- they can be made to work- but there's a lot of anger of what are some obviously stupid rules, or cases where one thing is simply clearly a better option.
For example, stupid rules- Trygon Tunnels, Lictor Pheremone trails
Non-existence of actual choice- Hive Tyrant powers (maybe if making a tailored list you'd take something other than Leech Essence and Paroxysm. Maybe.), Pyrovores (not completely useless, but not worth an Elites slot), Carnifex loadout (if you take one at all).
Lack of support also doesn't help- Tervigons are one of the best things Tyranids have... and out comes yet another dark eldar wave. We feel loved.

Other things are just counter-intuitive. Going through the new book I was keen to see changes to the Venom Cannon (now Heavy Venom Cannon)- Can now penetrate vehicles! great! Str 9! great!... 1 shot blast... that's not a tank killer. For the points it's just too unreliable, and as a horde killer there are simply better options.
Tyrannofexes have a weapon that can fill the tank-killer role though. If you ignore all of their anti-infantry weaponry, ignore the massive points cost, roll very well with the dice and can summon a suitable model from your dreams.

In my experience the combination of a poor 'nid book and decent other armies just makes fun builds unusable. Valkyeries have put paid to my old swarm armies... The style of the army has simply changed in a way a lot of people don't like (and more drastic, army-wide change than I ever recall happening to any other major race).

big squig
04-06-2011, 06:55
Additionally, they often lack the speed of many other armies, finding it difficult to get units into position due to the lack of mechanization.



Which is pretty sad really since nids are "supposed" to be the fastest infantry army in the game. At least they were originally.

NerZuhl
04-06-2011, 08:22
This is what I recommend many to do.

Buy the codex
Buy a Sharpie
Black out Lictor/Pyrovore/Rippers/Sky Slashers/Carnifex/All upgrade options for termagants except devourers/Spore Mines/Mawloc/All upgrades for Mycetic Spore/Toxin Sacs on Trygons, Tyrants and Harpies/All upgrades except Rupture cannon for Tyrannofex/ All regeneration upgrades except for Primes/ Old One Eye/ All Acid Blood, twin linked deathspitter, and toxic miasma upgrades/ Trygons Tunnel rules
Highlight Tervigon/Hive Guard

Now build any list you want, and remember to include highlighted units.

That is the problem with the dex. Add in that you only have AT units present in 2 force org slots, and general inflexibility of list creation. It might as well have been a PDF online posting for all the choices you actually have.

PS: The reason Nids look so poor when compared to every codex that has followed isn't because of new powers or perceived uberness. It is the fact that these armies have several different approaches for creating a good list. AT units can be found in nearly every slot. BA, GK, and DE all have efficient and solid AT choices available to every slot. Which is important in 5th edition.

It is just silly that an army that can't take vehicles doesn't have the tools present to actually handle vehicle armies in more than two locations. HVC and CC are not consistent and reliable AT, so don't bother bringing them up.

Tyranids are a premier Anti-Infantry army trying to survive in a mechanized world.

The Marshel
04-06-2011, 08:38
In case you haven't been paying attention, the top tier lists, namely razorfang and leafblower are just as limited in their unit selection. You'll never see a top razorfang list running units of fenrisian wolves, and I don't think you'll ever come across a leafblower with Roughriders... It's not that only a selection of units are effective, it's just that when you are going to play against stiff competition, you want to take the most efficient units for your points. When you are looking for the most efficient choice, yes, your other choices wont make it in the army, because they're less efficient. Get over it, this is nothing new and certainly not unique to Tyranids.

the point isnt that nids can't make a powerful list. the point is that if they dont they end up a step behind other armies who dont.

Sure, a guard leaf blower list is pretty strict in what it takes. a guard "for fun" list isnt however. these guard "for fun" list will still contain the same solid infantry platoons, artilery and tanks, mech vets etc.

top tier marines is max autocannon dreads, max dakka preds, max las plas razorbacks. my personal marine preferred list, 2 sternguard squads, tactical squad, scouts, variable tanks, pedro. many of the competitive players here would consider that a poor list for tournies, and they'd be right, but its quite formidable in friendlies.

If you were to divide the codex into excellent, decent and poor options, you'd find a decent enough selection of excellent units, maybe 3 decent ones, and then the rest is poor. Marines on the other hand, lots of great options, tonns of decent ones, poor? well, vanguard, servitors and some SC. thats it. For the guard, everything but a few odd units like storm troopers are either decent enough and/or cheap enough and/or enjoyable enough to make a useful contribution to the average joe's list for his game against another average joe over nothing but bragging rights. Outside of HQs, i can only think of a single poor unit in the dark eldar codex.

If you play nids, and you're not looking to win tournaments, you dont really open up your options for interesting and effective units at all. banewolves are fun, pyrovores are point waste. devastators may not be the most efficient option, but its not like they have to compete with long fangs, unlike the fex, who basically has a better version for slightly more points in the same FOC slot.

The competitive tourney players will always figure something out, but its the friendly gamers that suffer for the internal balance. I can make 90% of may marine code work reasonably well. I can happily take devastators and not feel like i'm wasting points. Assualt squads are poor at what they do, but do add to my force in the form of fast reaction. regular termies may pale in comparison to assault termies, but they're still pretty darn good.

Want the cool looking pyrovore? shame its gonna nerf your list. into the iconic Fex? sever points sink. Lictors you say? spend points on effectively nothing.

Tyranids are competitive enough, they just have nothing resembling internal balance. That hurts the friendly games, not the tournies.

Bartali
04-06-2011, 09:18
GW must really, really not like Nids if the rumours of the Harpy coming on the Valkyrie base is true

Threeshades
04-06-2011, 11:07
In case you haven't been paying attention, the top tier lists, namely razorfang and leafblower are just as limited in their unit selection. You'll never see a top razorfang list running units of fenrisian wolves, and I don't think you'll ever come across a leafblower with Roughriders... It's not that only a selection of units are effective, it's just that when you are going to play against stiff competition, you want to take the most efficient units for your points. When you are looking for the most efficient choice, yes, your other choices wont make it in the army, because they're less efficient. Get over it, this is nothing new and certainly not unique to Tyranids.

Again, beside the point. Sure you are limited in your choice when you want to come out with the the absolute maximum of optimization, but most armies have at least a good selection to go with and many different paths to go with their army selection. Dark Eldar is an example of a beautifully writen codex, almost every unit has its place and can contribute meaningfully.
Not so much with tyranids a whole bunch of them are so badly balanced that they don't even find their way into a moderately optimized army.
In the space wolves codex most of the units also have a point, that extends to more than a specific type of enemy in a specific situation (which is exactly what for example carnifexes, liktors and pyrovores have been reduced to)


GW must really, really not like Nids if the rumours of the Harpy coming on the Valkyrie base is true

I was expecting that from day one.

wyvirn
04-06-2011, 12:20
This is what I recommend many to do.

Buy the codex
Buy a Sharpie
Black out Lictor/Pyrovore/Rippers/Sky Slashers/Carnifex/All upgrade options for termagants except devourers/Spore Mines/Mawloc/All upgrades for Mycetic Spore/Toxin Sacs on Trygons, Tyrants and Harpies/All upgrades except Rupture cannon for Tyrannofex/ All regeneration upgrades except for Primes/ Old One Eye/ All Acid Blood, twin linked deathspitter, and toxic miasma upgrades/ Trygons Tunnel rules



Aaannndd that's what's holding us back from the tyranid side. We were so eager to denounce the codex we lumped some gems in with the the crap. The gems just need to be used strategically and in ways numbers don't convey. I.E. for 30 points, spore mines can ruin a deployment, or acid blood and lash whips almost guarantees a wound. And I know a few highly competetive players who swear by mawlocs. As a whole, we need to switch from a mindset of 'this codex doesn't work' to 'how can I make this codex work'

Panzer MkIV
04-06-2011, 13:00
As a whole, we need to switch from a mindset of 'this codex doesn't work' to 'how can I make this codex work'

Isn't that the mark of a poorly written codex? ;)

Bartali
04-06-2011, 14:05
In case you haven't been paying attention, the top tier lists, namely razorfang and leafblower are just as limited in their unit selection. You'll never see a top razorfang list running units of fenrisian wolves, and I don't think you'll ever come across a leafblower with Roughriders... It's not that only a selection of units are effective, it's just that when you are going to play against stiff competition, you want to take the most efficient units for your points. When you are looking for the most efficient choice, yes, your other choices wont make it in the army, because they're less efficient. Get over it, this is nothing new and certainly not unique to Tyranids.

Completely missing the point as to why the Tyranid codex is poorly written. The IG codex has multiple options for anti-transport across the FOC. Vendettas in FA, Troops with Autocannons, Hydras in Heavy (amongst others). This allows multiple viable builds.

Tyranids just have Hive Guard in Elites forcing you to use your elites slot for these, limiting the player to the amount of viable builds.

Threeshades
04-06-2011, 14:06
Isn't that the mark of a poorly written codex? ;)

Exactly.

I want to make a competitive list and be able to include my favourite units and cool upgrades, but I can't,
I can make a competitive list with all the usual crap but I don't want to.

Megad00mer
04-06-2011, 14:45
It also doesn't help that "competitive" Tyranid lists tend to get trounced by the competitive lists in other books and still struggle against their softer lists as well.

No other Codex release, not even 4th ed. Chaos Marines has caused as much unhappiness amongst it's players as this Tyranid Book. And while the CSMs (who admittedly had the flavor and theme of their army gutted) are still regulars at tourmaments and can make some varied and competative builds, fewer and fewer Tyranid armies are seen on tables each passing month, and many players consider them effectively dead for serious competitive play.

So why is this? Is it that "Tyranid players are just whiny", "Tyranid players can't adapt to a new play style", "Tyranid players just suck" or any other ignorant dismissive crap like that?

Or is it a much simpler explanation. One that Tyranid players have been screaming for a year and a half and that some people (mostly those who don't play Tyranids interestingly enough) continue to ignore.

Very simply, this is a poor, poor Codex.

Occam's Razor - A principal which states that the simplest explanation is most often the correct one.

wyvirn
04-06-2011, 14:57
Isn't that the mark of a poorly written codex? ;)

Yes, it's also the codex that tyranids are stuck with for the next few years. So you can quit, or or try to adapt.

big squig
04-06-2011, 15:06
Yes, it's also the codex that tyranids are stuck with for the next few years. So you can quit, or or try to adapt.

I'm not going to try and pound a square peg into a round hole. I just moved on to a different army.

Threeshades
04-06-2011, 15:11
I'm not going to try and pound a square peg into a round hole. I just moved on to a different army.

So did I, temporarily. My nids are taking a vacation using the time to get painted up, meanwhile my orks and Eldar will see a lot more use.

Megad00mer
04-06-2011, 15:40
I'm still playing mine, but I mainly play in a fairly non-competitive environment with some friends. I've done well with them.

Still, ever since my buddy picked up Grey Knights I have yet to have a game against them where I'm not slaughtered. Fun is fun, but it's very frustrating to play against an army that seems custom written to kick your ass.

Threeshades
04-06-2011, 15:42
I'm still playing mine, but I mainly play in a fairly non-competitive environment with some friends. I've done well with them.

Still, ever since my buddy picked up Grey Knights I have yet to have a game against them where I'm not slaughtered. Fun is fun, but it's very frustrating to play against an army that seems custom written to kick your ass.

The funny thing is Grey Knights are custom written to kick chaos daemons asses (I've read the damn thing) and still they are pure killing against tyranids as well.

big squig
04-06-2011, 15:45
So did I, temporarily. My nids are taking a vacation using the time to get painted up, meanwhile my orks and Eldar will see a lot more use.

OMG we must be long lost brothers. :D I put my nids aside, giving me time to paint them, and am playing with just my orks and eldar now.

Lowmans
04-06-2011, 16:00
I'm just starting Nids and refuse to be deterred! They're just so awesomely unlike anything else in 40k! I love the models, I love most of the fluff. I'll take my beatings and maybe get to dish out a few.
I guess the learning curve will be tough, especially as I build up and don't have the right units but it'll get there. I'm resting my marines and Word Bearers to play Nids!! :D

Megad00mer
04-06-2011, 16:15
The funny thing is Grey Knights are custom written to kick chaos daemons asses (I've read the damn thing) and still they are pure killing against tyranids as well.

Ironically enough I actually think Daemons can put up a better fight in some cases.

Vaktathi
04-06-2011, 17:55
Ironically enough I actually think Daemons can put up a better fight in some cases.

The Daemon's always still get their invul saves, that's the big kicker. :p

I'll never know why they changed Force Weapons from specialized anti-daemon weapons to being by and large no better than a basic CCW against them, thus requiring GK's to have a set of special rules for their force weapons against Daemons that still aren't *that* scary.

Threeshades
04-06-2011, 18:35
The Daemon's always still get their invul saves, that's the big kicker. :p

I'll never know why they changed Force Weapons from specialized anti-daemon weapons to being by and large no better than a basic CCW against them, thus requiring GK's to have a set of special rules for their force weapons against Daemons that still aren't *that* scary.

They dont only have their nemesis forcecrap.

MaliGn
04-06-2011, 19:20
The thing wit Tyranids is that they always win, maybe not on the tabletop, but the war? sure. Even if the imperium orders exterminatus on the planet then they lose. So we'll just see this codex as the softening up" stage of a Tyanid invasion with easily repelled waves of average-to-poor lists and occasional instances of some mighty warbeasts running amok, gradually the Norn Queens of Nottingham will see fit to engineer some bio beasts that will rip apart the tin cans of other races, while swatting their flyers out of the skies like Rafael Nadal thrashing Andy Murray at Tennis. And then the Tyranids win. Because they always do.

The Tyranid General must think off-table to find his victory, once he doe this, it is ever-present.

Bartali
04-06-2011, 23:43
Ironically enough I actually think Daemons can put up a better fight in some cases.

Now that's just plain silly

wyvirn
05-06-2011, 00:48
Now that's just plain silly

Yes. Yes it it.Then again, 3 years ago someone telling me that SW would get a psychic power that makes monster die on a single roll was just plain silly.

WildWeasel
05-06-2011, 01:51
Now that's just plain silly

But true. GK force weapons are far more of a threat to Nids, GKs eat hordes, their MC owns Nid MCs, Sanctuary versus a CC army almost totally lacking in grenades....

Angelwing
05-06-2011, 08:45
I play in a very casual gaming environment and I've been having lots of fun with the book.
However, even with my easy going lists and play I notice the odd point costs, useless options and confused / pointless special rules, and tend to steer away from fielding such units.
The problem isn't competitive / power / whatever, but a rushed under play tested book, combined with a FAQ document that has several wtf? moments. Pity, because with minor changes in points and wording the book could force players to make tough choices when making a list, because everything is so tempting and fun. As it stands, tournament players have a sadly restricted choice and casual players think twice with certain units.

Bartali
05-06-2011, 10:06
But true. GK force weapons are far more of a threat to Nids, GKs eat hordes, their MC owns Nid MCs, Sanctuary versus a CC army almost totally lacking in grenades....

I'm guessing you've never played Daemons ? The Tyranid codex is by far, far the better codex.

Nezalhualixtlan
05-06-2011, 17:33
The Tyranids themselves are not useless or terrible, or ineffective. They take more finesse to play now than previously, but they have the tools to win. They are not quite in the same league as SW, or IG, or even BA ( though I'm still evaluating GK and DE) in terms of comparison to the newer codexes. But they are pretty damn good, if you use them correctly. They suffer from some internal balance problems. Things like the poor Lictor, Carnifex, and Pyrovore are just written poorly and do not have internal coherency in how they work, or in terms of how they are priced depending on which is in question. There are some "obvious" power choices in each FOC slot, and it makes your other choices less appealing. And the army overall suffers from some design inconsistencies when compared to some of the other newer codexes... But they aren't useless, certainly, winning with them is not a problem if you play them well

toddznidz
06-06-2011, 03:57
Tyranids are not useless, but the opinion on "competativeness" changes dramatically with perspective.

If one is strictly a casual player and has not seen them much, you might think Nids are "OP" because you are not familiar with what they can do or how to deal with it. DoM can be a real pain in the butt until you realize one ML shot IDs it.

If you play local RTTs only, it is not too difficult to cater a Tyranid list to compete with a smaller group of players and lists you see on a regular basis. Any decent player who can move his hoarde fast can do OK.

But any good tournament players with a competative, all-comer lists will know how to deal with Nids, and have the tools in their army to do it. There is nothing in the Tyranid Codex that scares any experienced player enough to make them take anything specifically to deal with anything the Nids can throw at them.

No Eternal Warrior, no invuln saves, overcosted HQ units, no frag grenades, no armor upgrade on Stealers, SotW is too short range to be a viable psychic defense, etc.

The Elite slots appear to be crowded, but hive-guard are really the only viable choice, and you have to use one slot on v-thropes if you want to live past turn three. Zoes are OK, but are unreiable because their range is shorter than the "hood" they are shooting at.

Troops are a complete mess. Broodlords are the only decent choice, and (unfortuantely) you have to take Stealers to get them.

Many think of the Tyranids as an "assault" army, but this is not really the case. Mid-rane fire-power is their strength (Devourers, Deathspitters), the problem is keeping it allive long enough to get in range, not to mention forcing units out of transports. For 100 points, you can have 30 X BS3, 18", S4, AP- shots which is pretty good... but of coarse one heavy flamer shot pretty much kills the whole thing without so much as a save.

No matter what you do, mech and flamer lists will be tough. GKs are really, really tough.

Another huge problem for long time Nid players is the fact the old Dex was for better.

Nids can still beat the crap out of Crons... for at least for a few more months!

toddznidz
06-06-2011, 04:02
I'm guessing you've never played Daemons ? The Tyranid codex is by far, far the better codex.

Kairos and a few blood-crushers will eat any nid list in a hearbeat.

Carnage
06-06-2011, 04:20
If one is strictly a casual player and has not seen them much, you might think Nids are "OP" because you are not familiar with what they can do or how to deal with it. DoM can be a real pain in the butt until you realize one ML shot IDs it.

If you play local RTTs only, it is not too difficult to cater a Tyranid list to compete with a smaller group of players and lists you see on a regular basis. Any decent player who can move his hoarde fast can do OK.

But any good tournament players with a competative, all-comer lists will know how to deal with Nids, and have the tools in their army to do it. There is nothing in the Tyranid Codex that scares any experienced player enough to make them take anything specifically to deal with anything the Nids can throw at them.


Basically this. As the competitiveness level goes up, nids fare worse and worse.

If you want to just play around with your friends or at a small local RTT or something, then go nuts. Be warned that top tier players with top tier lists will vaporize you in the worst ways imaginable though.

People that think nids are overpowered don't understand the book and/or have limited experience against them.

People that think nids are "balanced/fine", haven't played a top tier player with a top tier army and been tabled before turn 5.

People that think nids are "a joke for serious tournament play" are the good players to watch out for, because they know the truth.

SgtTaters
06-06-2011, 04:23
So did I, temporarily. My nids are taking a vacation using the time to get painted up, meanwhile my orks and Eldar will see a lot more use.

Do you find the Eldar and Ork codices to allow for more diversity than nids do right now?

daboarder
06-06-2011, 04:48
Do you find the Eldar and Ork codices to allow for more diversity than nids do right now?

Personally I play 3 armies, Blood angels, Nurgle marines and tyranids.

As annoying as it is tp make a Chaos mono god list it is far more annoying to write out a nid list, look at it and then realize that it is terrible has no real options and half the "cool" rules and units either are so stupidly impractical for what they are representing (lictor) or literally DONT WORK (trygon tunnel)

NerZuhl
06-06-2011, 07:47
Do you find the Eldar and Ork codices to allow for more diversity than nids do right now?

Eldar are using a vastly out dated codex to play with. No reason to compare them to the nid dex. A 5th edition codex should be compared to others.

Orks are using a 4.25 edition codex. And yes, they are on par with Nids. Orks can present anti-armor or infantry or combination in all of their force org. They can also mechanize, granted one of the crappier versions but at least they have the option. And at least they don't have any broken rules and play to the fluff to some degree.

In my opinion Nids were not designed with the 5th edition environment in mind. They are close to a 4.5 edition dex. The following xeno codex corrected this, and did consider the current environment. If necrons come out and are as balanced as DE are, then I think it will confirm that Nids were merely a test codex.

itcamefromthedeep
06-06-2011, 14:56
I'm just starting Nids and refuse to be deterred!Great!

Bring the models you like to field. The difficulty Tyranids have at winning only comes up in the most competitive of metagames. If you're doing fine with Word Bearers, you'll do fine with Tyranids.


Kairos and a few blood-crushers will eat any nid list in a hearbeat.Hyperbole. Fatecrusher lists can be beaten, regularly, by Tyranids.

Don't underestimate the ability of people to make mistakes.


Eldar are using a vastly out dated codex to play with. No reason to compare them to the nid dex. A 5th edition codex should be compared to others.
An army should be compared to the armies it's fighting against. Losing because your opponents' army was lame is still a loss, and still a waste of time.

---

Tyranids are *considered* useless or terrible or ineffective because they are perceived to have a hard time with mechanized armies and the newer army book releases.

This shows up in the highest tiers of play, but most gamers will happily play with and against the army without noticing the difference.

I'm convinced that the metagame difficulty is a result of venom cannons not doing their job. Venom cannons appear to have been intended as anti-tank weapons. If they were effective anti-tank weapons (say, assault 2 instead of blast, no penalty on the damage chart) then the metagame problems with the codex largely disappear.

While most players won't notice the difference in effectiveness, they'll probably notice other problems with the codex like the poor internal balance, the poorly written mechanics, some poorly written background material, and the poor naming of new critters.

Threeshades
06-06-2011, 16:53
Do you find the Eldar and Ork codices to allow for more diversity than nids do right now?

Eldar are kind of on the edge, but they still have it in them. Guardians, and Fast Attack are the only ones that dont really hold up in my opinion. Except for warp spiders. And all my favourite units are playable as ever.

Orks? I dont have any problem with orks, the only ones on the weak side are gretchins and flash gitz.

toddznidz
06-06-2011, 19:46
Hyperbole. Fatecrusher lists can be beaten, regularly, by Tyranids.

Yes, I was being a bit melodramatic. My point in response to the "Deamons suck worse than Nids" post is almost every Codex with the exception of Crons (and maybe Tau) can field a list that can be at least as effective in the metagame as anything the Nids can bring. All post 5e dexes plus Orcs (Gazkull, mech + burnas) and Eldar (seer council on jet bikes, mech, or just scatter laser spam) can field a list to table the best the Nids can bring by turn 5. Double-Lash\Oblits still wastes Nids.


I'm convinced that the metagame difficulty is a result of venom cannons not doing their job. Venom cannons appear to have been intended as anti-tank weapons. If they were effective anti-tank weapons (say, assault 2 instead of blast, no penalty on the damage chart) then the metagame problems with the codex largely disappear.

HVC are not good on anything but Harpies. But I don't think that is the big problem. The amount of S8, AP3 (or better) you see from the power gamers is so cheap and numerous these days (to counter mech) and conveniently falls right in the "sweet" spot to kill Nids. All the MCs are 3+ armor (no save from MLs), and all the multi-wound critters are all T4 (ID from ML, MM, etc). They are just so fragile against 5e lists that one mistake or critical bad luck and poof, they are off the table.

P-fists against 3 wound, fearless, T4 critters with no invuln saves is really not pretty. Now take away frag grenades...

Don't get me started on "blood-talons" (does anyone remember "Frog Blender") or anything in the GK Dex...

T-fex makes up for some of the problems (and specifically addresses your problem with the HVC), but costing more than a LR and BS3 for 2 S10 shots, 2+ armor, and a whole lot of other usless crap makes for a heavy price to pay.

Nids are not "useless", and can be a lot of fun to play. Their poor "Internet reputation" comes from the fact that they are severely hampered from a competative standpoint in anything above a local level of competition.

big squig
06-06-2011, 21:37
Do you find the Eldar and Ork codices to allow for more diversity than nids do right now?

Yes with both really, but eldar is using a pretty old book. Orks though have way more diversity than nids. There's barely a bad unit in the ork dex (flash gitz...and???). You can mechanize, you can go all out speed, you can do a green tide, you can do a nob rush, you can even do an all shooty army and still be competitive.

GrogDaTyrant
06-06-2011, 23:34
There's barely a bad unit in the ork dex (flash gitz...and???)

Just finishing your though process there... Warpheads, Zzap Gun batteries, arguably Tankbustas, and a couple of the unique characters (in fact, all but about 3). There are a couple of units that are 'sub-par', but still viable, such as Mega Nobs or heavy-support Dreadnoughts.

The bulk of the issues with the Ork codex comes from stripping the codex down, excessive nerf-batting of some units/weapons (zzaps, looted-wagons), and poor cost adjustment. Some units are a bit expensive for a 6+ wet t-shirt "aspekt" unit. While others are undercosted and have led to the tendency of 'horde-destroying' gimmicks in newer codices.

Regardless it's a *decently* written book, but by no means worthy of the praise so many on the internet seem to lavish it with. The list-customization comes from how you bend the force-org chart... The majority of units have very little in the way of worthwhile options and upgrades (exception being the thrice-damned wound-allocation-abuse Nobs). In the end, you still need bosspoles and PKs on every nob leader, deathrollas *somewhere* are recommended, numerous units have uncharacteristic morale problems, and adding IA 8 to the mix will be the biggest boost to your excitement for the army.

malisteen
07-06-2011, 03:24
Nids have some cool gimmicks. They're fun for casual games, and you can win with them. But...

As has been mentioned, the internal balance is poor (there are decent units that you should field and terrible units you shouldn't touch), they don't have a lot of "wow" factor in their rules, and their gimmicks - expensive monstrous creatures, bulk fodder infantry, and elite melee infantry, all with poor armor saves, just aren't particularly good gimicks in a 40k environment ruled by mechanized lists, and that was before army wide poison or army wide force weapons were something you could reasonably expect to face, further devaluing the already overpriced yet still largely essential monstrous creatures in the list. The nids' poor psychic defense and lack of assault grenades are just the injuries on top of the injuries. I mean, really, a light armored melee list without assault grenades?

For all that, again, it's not hopeless. Nids can still be quite fun in a casual setting, but it can be an uphill battle.

Vepr
07-06-2011, 13:44
I resisted selling my nids but they have been shelved since last summer. I was not doing bad with them when I quit playing I think I was 8-2 with them when I quit playing but I was not having fun with the army and I rightly guessed at the time that the mess of codex with a terrible FAQ would make the nid codex age poorly. It is very hard to build an all comers list with nids and those are the types of games I liked to play. Really it is not even easy to build a tailored list with them.

I was highly disappointed in the overall quality of the new nid dex and the lack of support it received in releases and the FAQ was just the final straw. Normally I would be eagerly awaiting new releases for them but I have no plans on buying any new nid models that come out. I think that if GW does not revise the FAQ they are in for a disappointing sales graph for a nid second wave if it ever comes.

Ravenous
07-06-2011, 14:08
Really the problems with the nid book can be easily summurized:
-Cover for MCs in 5th
-Loss of defensive upgrades
-Point increase with CC trade off on walking MCs
-No retreat, the anathema of the nid dex.
-The ball kick of a FAQ

Now they arent useless, but their weaknesses are extremely exploitable, more so then any other 5th dex, thus making them the weakest of the 5th ed dex's.

Threeshades
07-06-2011, 18:32
Really the problems with the nid book can be easily summurized:
-Cover for MCs in 5th
-Loss of defensive upgrades
-Point increase with CC trade off on walking MCs
-No retreat, the anathema of the nid dex.
-The ball kick of a FAQ

Now they arent useless, but their weaknesses are extremely exploitable, more so then any other 5th dex, thus making them the weakest of the 5th ed dex's.

you forgot the impossibility of putting together a tyranide force that even remotely resembles what tyranids are supposed to be in the fluff.

Bonzai
07-06-2011, 18:56
Yes, I was being a bit melodramatic. My point in response to the "Deamons suck worse than Nids" post is almost every Codex with the exception of Crons (and maybe Tau) can field a list that can be at least as effective in the metagame as anything the Nids can bring.

Frankly, as a Necron player, I was more afraid of the old nids. I have yet to lose against 5th edition nids. Things just fall too easily to shooting, and a lack of assault grenades is a huge detriment. I have yet to fight against an all deep strike list, but even still, I would rather face Nids in any form than space wolves.

Archangelion
07-06-2011, 22:06
This is just how bad the nid codex is.

Last night, my friends started playing a game. Because we are playing a campaign using the "There is Only War" system we ended up playing a game where the nid player was deployed 12" from the tau player. The nid player also got a special rule that allowed him to make a scout move (which solidified the 12" deployment a bit more). The nid player then stole the initiative, moveing in for the kill.

By turn two end, only 3 units of the nids remain (ones that hadden't really been shot at yet), and most of the tau force is intact.

Something is seriously wrong when a close combat focused army can't even win when the game seems stacked for them, against the least close combat oriented army out there.

toddznidz
07-06-2011, 22:08
Frankly, as a Necron player, I was more afraid of the old nids. I have yet to lose against 5th edition nids. Things just fall too easily to shooting, and a lack of assault grenades is a huge detriment. I have yet to fight against an all deep strike list, but even still, I would rather face Nids in any form than space wolves.

How do you deal with MCs? My regular weekly 40K pal is a Cron player, and I have just plane quit fielding Nids against him without several restrictions (2 MCs max, no stealers). Even on nights where he does well against me, the Trygons and Mawlocs just chew him up and phase him out. I don't normally run DoM against him because it just seems ridiculous (suck on warriors, blow on devestators).

The last Dex was MUCH better if for only one reason. Synapse included Eternal Warrior. Take one wound away from all the mid-size critters and give EW back to Synapse, NIDS FIXED.

Carnifexes as Elites at 1/3 the cost was nice as well. That extra pip of armor on the stealers for 4pts per was critical, not to mention frag options. SitW working on the entire board all the time was better than the current itteration. No IB checks for Fearless was nice.

The new book fixed Broodlords, and completely nuked everything else.

Ahh, the good 'ol days.

Kevlar
07-06-2011, 22:55
Sounds like a lot of the same problems I have with my chaos marines. The book just has poor internal balance. And its so old that the newer shift in point values makes the entire army overcosted. Some units are very useful, others are utter crap, and the force organization chart doesn't leave much room to play. So the same units get spammed in every list, while other units never see the field.

The point cost disparity is pretty extreme. For instance a space wolf heavy weapon squad with sergeant and 4 missile launchers is close to half the cost of a similarly equipped chaos marine squad, and they get ATSKNF on top of the huge discount! Even smurfs pay half the price for a missile launcher than chaos.

Threeshades
07-06-2011, 23:27
The last Dex was MUCH better if for only one reason. Synapse included Eternal Warrior. Take one wound away from all the mid-size critters and give EW back to Synapse, NIDS FIXED.


I have to heavily disagree, it mainly just fixes T4 creatures. Although I personally would find it much more suitable to change all creatures that are currently T4 and W3 to T5 and W2 and keep eternal warrior out of the whole thing, that would be more realistic and still helps the issue greatly.

But what still wouldnt be fixed, is that tyranids still could field proper swarm armies because they ytill couldnt go without a sizeable portion of stealers and the extremely expensive midbugs (especially Hive Guard) as well as the really (and for the main part too) expensive MCs.

Also Carnies and Lictors would still suck and I can't have that. :shifty:

Ravenous
08-06-2011, 02:42
How do you deal with MCs? My regular weekly 40K pal is a Cron player .

Destroyer spam + blocking tactics

Archangelion
08-06-2011, 09:47
Lictors definatly seem to need a rule akin to the "Heroic Intervention" rule that the Vanguard Veterans of C:SM have.

Bonzai
08-06-2011, 14:34
How do you deal with MCs?

I play a Wraith Wing. Normally, I soften them up a bit first with shooting. Monoliths and/or hvy destroyers bring S9 AP Nid. Immortals and Warriors can spam some fire as well. When the Wraiths and Lord charge in, thats 36 S6 I6 attacks, which vs a Trygon would mean 18 hits, 9 wounds, 3 unsaved wounds on average, and then there is the lord who will probably manage one with his warscythe. You have 6 attacks, and can either swing at the lord, who is T6 with a 4+inv, or against the wraiths, who have a 3+ inv. Odds are good that it will be killed during your turn, and the wraiths will then move on to the next target.

The only thing my wraiths fear in the nid codex are;

1. Swarmlord/Tyrant with Guard: Toughest nut to crack in the codex. Especially if they have Lash whips thrown in there. Fortunately they are foot slogging infantry, take a long time to get where they are going, and can be whittled down.

2. Warrior Broods w/ Lash whips: I1 ruins the wraiths advantages, and can cause them to lose combat. Fortunately, this is what the S9 fire power is for.

3. Genestealers: Unless they are assaulting you through terrain, it can be a tough fight. My wraiths will usually win, and can take on a larger number of stealers, but the casualties are rarely worth it. Fortunately, they fall like gaunts to shooting. So as long as I am mindful of the out flank, I get the chance. Yrrgml's are an issue, but they will get a unit of warriors or immortals at most. After that they are toast.

The Old Codex was much harder to deal with. The walls of fexes, Stealers with scuttlers, assault grenades, fleet gaunts, eternal warrior.

shandy
08-06-2011, 19:19
Player attitude has a big effect on how effective a list can be. For example with the nids if you believe all the negative stuff then going into a game- be it friendly or tournie- with that attitude will probably result in you losing and simply reinforcing the negative viewpoint.

The other aspect of the attitude is the competitiveness of the player (for want of a better phrase)- some people expect to simply win and if they lose then it's clearly a rubbish codex.

I know Nid players that attended tournies with the old codex and did well, when the new codex came out the adapted their army- no major changes like having to rebuild the entire force- and quickly returned to a healthy win/lose/draw ratio.

My personal opinion is that the Nid codex is a finese codex- there is a lot of synergy there but probably not apparent to a first timer or a vet picking up Nids for the first time. I kind of compare it to playing Deathwing lists- you can't simply plonk your models down on the table and expect to walk over the opposition but with careful planning you can have a very effective army that can win games.

Ork codex is a good example of a codex that a newcomer to 40k can pick up and play- buy a load of boyz and a couple of other things you might like and simply charge towards the enemy- basic tactic but can be effective. What the codex also benefits on that for a vet there is a lot of synergy so that a number of effective builds can be built. The Nids has this later option but not the former and this may be where the weakness comes in. THeres an arguement that every codex should have a pick up and play side and then the synergy side as people get more use to it.

Apathyman
08-06-2011, 19:57
The 'nid codex is much maligned due to the lack of rhinos and a silly faq. warseer in particular hates it. If you're in the mood for some tyranid tactics beyond "don't do it!" look elsewhere on the web, there are a decent number of places that embrace the bugs, both in a competitive way and a casual/hobby way. It is at least a big improvement over the last codex, which was essentially an attempt to sell carnifex models (the 5th codex doesn't have a monopoly on model-pushing) more than an effective book.


Yes with both really, but eldar is using a pretty old book. Orks though have way more diversity than nids. There's barely a bad unit in the ork dex (flash gitz...and???). You can mechanize, you can go all out speed, you can do a green tide, you can do a nob rush, you can even do an all shooty army and still be competitive.

The eldar codex suffers from having to min/max to get AT (hi, 2+ fire dragon squads), as well as dead FOC slots (troops, fast attack). Currently an eldar army generally consists of whatever troops they think they can get away with, elites and HS (by no means universal).

Orks: big gunz, flash gitz, weirdboy, burnas, wartrakks/buggies (pretty much anything that relies on shooting that doesn't have at least 3 shots). To a lesser extent stormboyz and gretchin.
Orks have an arguably tougher time with AT than nids. Sure you can take a fist or rokkits in almost any slot, but orks are BS2 and fists don't roll 2d6 pen. It's almost impossible for them to crack a raider, for example.

Vepr
08-06-2011, 20:15
Player attitude has a big effect on how effective a list can be. For example with the nids if you believe all the negative stuff then going into a game- be it friendly or tournie- with that attitude will probably result in you losing and simply reinforcing the negative viewpoint.

The other aspect of the attitude is the competitiveness of the player (for want of a better phrase)- some people expect to simply win and if they lose then it's clearly a rubbish codex.

I know Nid players that attended tournies with the old codex and did well, when the new codex came out the adapted their army- no major changes like having to rebuild the entire force- and quickly returned to a healthy win/lose/draw ratio.

My personal opinion is that the Nid codex is a finese codex- there is a lot of synergy there but probably not apparent to a first timer or a vet picking up Nids for the first time. I kind of compare it to playing Deathwing lists- you can't simply plonk your models down on the table and expect to walk over the opposition but with careful planning you can have a very effective army that can win games.

Ork codex is a good example of a codex that a newcomer to 40k can pick up and play- buy a load of boyz and a couple of other things you might like and simply charge towards the enemy- basic tactic but can be effective. What the codex also benefits on that for a vet there is a lot of synergy so that a number of effective builds can be built. The Nids has this later option but not the former and this may be where the weakness comes in. THeres an arguement that every codex should have a pick up and play side and then the synergy side as people get more use to it.

There is definitely synergy in the nid dex but unfortunately it is also the biggest achillies heels of he codex. If your opponent has any decent working knowledge of the nid codex they have a fairly easy time interrupting your synergy. This is compounded by unforgiving nature of nids with lack of invulnerable saves and armor. You cannot afford to make a mistake with them against a decent opponent. There are not vehicles or decent armor saves to fall back on.

Asensur
08-06-2011, 20:21
There are many ways to win with Nids, it is just people who are too lazy to guess how.

Draconis
08-06-2011, 20:32
All of which get squashed by other 5th ed. codexes. You can say what you want, but all the tournie results show otherwise.

I remember the days when Synapse helped nids. Now it hurts them.

wyvirn
08-06-2011, 20:45
The 'nid codex is much maligned due to the lack of rhinos and a silly faq. warseer in particular hates it. If you're in the mood for some tyranid tactics beyond "don't do it!" look elsewhere on the web, there are a decent number of places that embrace the bugs, both in a competitive way and a casual/hobby way. It is at least a big improvement over the last codex, which was essentially an attempt to sell carnifex models (the 5th codex doesn't have a monopoly on model-pushing) more than an effective book.



Actually, I find warseer to have a very strong bug community, you just have to know where to look. Once you get past the general malaise and start asking questions, you'll find that it is pretty supportive.

Asensur
08-06-2011, 20:53
All of which get squashed by other 5th ed. codexes. You can say what you want, but all the tournie results show otherwise.

I remember the days when Synapse helped nids. Now it hurts them.

Which codexes? BA? DE? GK?

Don't tell me that these three releases after Nids were the ones who "nerfed" them. I remembered guys starting to get angry just when they decided to "nerf" a special character at the FAQs...just a special character! and people gets the hands over their heads!

I have just seen past month a Nids player literally blowing up the pride of a powergamer SW player. And I can ensure you the SW had a cheesy-full-of-characters army.

Tyranids need complete knowledge of your army and your's opponent. Being harder to master doesn't mean being weaker.

There are many ways to win, but people just don't want to get away from their Musclemens and their He-mens.

Draconis
08-06-2011, 21:10
Nowhere did i say anything about special characters. I'm talking Missile spam, lasback spam, grey hunter/rhino spam. Force weapon spam. Instant death ability spam. Poison spam. Anti-psyker spam.

Archangelion
08-06-2011, 21:15
How about four squads of firewarriors, three railheads, and 3 squads of fireknife pattern crisis suits?

They just slaughtered the nids, and the nids were in close combat range!

Rated_lexxx
08-06-2011, 21:31
There are many ways to win with Nids, it is just people who are too lazy to guess how.

I love this excuses. People just don't know how to win with nids:rolleyes:

Take a nid army built as good as possible versus most any other army. Take to players who know there army best and now see what happens.

Odds are the nid player will lose 2 out 3 times.

Archangelion
08-06-2011, 22:40
Maybe it's the paint job? Yeah! That must be it! :shifty:

Bestaltan
08-06-2011, 22:47
To those supporting the Nids in 5th edition.......shhhh. The overwhelming mentality that "ZOMG Nids suxxors!!11!" just makes my experience with my Bugs at tournaments all the easier and more enjoyable. :D

Threeshades
08-06-2011, 23:07
And still.. people don't get the point...

Kelderaith
08-06-2011, 23:39
Indeed Threeshades, that's why I stopped arguing about tyranid on these boards. It always rapidly devolves into name-calling basically. To say the least I have been clearly unimpressed with GW releases (except for DE) in the past few years and it saddens me. I am currently trying to "rewrite" 5th ed. codexes to attemps to balance them more (as GW seems not to care all that much really) as I am very lucky to have an open-minded group of players at my LGS who, like me, are quite a lot unhappy about the state of the game right now. I will probably post my things, once they are completed, into the rule development forum and will start playtesting this summer.

Ravenous
09-06-2011, 11:20
There is definitely synergy in the nid dex but unfortunately it is also the biggest achillies heels of he codex. If your opponent has any decent working knowledge of the nid codex they have a fairly easy time interrupting your synergy. This is compounded by unforgiving nature of nids with lack of invulnerable saves and armor. You cannot afford to make a mistake with them against a decent opponent. There are not vehicles or decent armor saves to fall back on.

Exactly.

Saying the dex requires lots of effort to make it work isnt really a selling point, which is probably why it isnt selling ;)

Really it comes down to love, if you love the army you're going to make it work, if its just okay then its like having a girlfriend that stabs you in the kidneys while you sleep.

Memnos
09-06-2011, 11:35
That's what I'm talking about Asensur!

Can you tell us how it happened? What were the two lists like?


Which codexes? BA? DE? GK?

Don't tell me that these three releases after Nids were the ones who "nerfed" them. I remembered guys starting to get angry just when they decided to "nerf" a special character at the FAQs...just a special character! and people gets the hands over their heads!

I have just seen past month a Nids player literally blowing up the pride of a powergamer SW player. And I can ensure you the SW had a cheesy-full-of-characters army.

Tyranids need complete knowledge of your army and your's opponent. Being harder to master doesn't mean being weaker.

There are many ways to win, but people just don't want to get away from their Musclemens and their He-mens.

Threeshades
09-06-2011, 14:34
Exactly.

Saying the dex requires lots of effort to make it work isnt really a selling point, which is probably why it isnt selling ;)

Really it comes down to love, if you love the army you're going to make it work, if its just okay then its like having a girlfriend that stabs you in the kidneys while you sleep.

I love tyranids and that's why I can't make them work, because the only working army lists are soulless mixes of Tervigons, Hive Guard and Trygons with a bit of genestealers and maybe a hive tyrant.

What tyranids should be are big swarms of gaunts accompanied by a colorful mixture of different fearsome beasts. But they arent theyre just the same units all over, and never ever a big swarm.

Asensur
09-06-2011, 15:07
That's what I'm talking about Asensur!

Can you tell us how it happened? What were the two lists like?

Basicly SW list was Logan's Grimnar and plenty of Wolf Guard with powerfists, and some missile launchers and plasma guns. Nids list was a Gaunt horde with long range support (biovores), as well as genestealers of course.

SW player made a dumb decision splitting his force trying to beat their big bugs, which where covered behind terrain. Nid player was from flank to flank beating scoring units first. His tactic was: shoot focus, assault with gaunts/gens out of synaptics range, flee and starting again.

Now that I think about it, the SW was too much confident and made some big mistakes.

By the way, people who think Nids are not competitive should see latest Spannish TOS.

In order of points total (not counting avg points):

1. Tyranids (12 points) (other 3 players with an avg of 6,66!!!, he got 2nd at the tournament)

2. Dark Angels (10 points) (he was the only one, avg of 3 and first at TOS)

3. Daemons of chaos (10 points) (other 3 players with a mean of 5)

4. Space Wolves (10 points) (other 3 players with an avg of 6,33)

Eldars got an avg of 7.5 between 4 players (getting 9 the top player)!!! On the other side, vanilla SM where awful: top player got 4 points and the avg between the other 7 was 2 (lol).

wyvirn
09-06-2011, 15:16
Really it comes down to love, if you love the army you're going to make it work, if its just okay then its like having a girlfriend that stabs you in the kidneys while you sleep.

She says she does it because she loves me :cries:

Memnos
09-06-2011, 15:27
She says she does it because she loves me :cries:

She does. Parts of you.

Like your sweet, succulent kidneys.

Ravenous
09-06-2011, 15:50
By the way, people who think Nids are not competitive should see latest Spannish TOS.


I wouldnt use the Throne of Skulls as a basis for how good an army is, considering you can get nearly the same amount of points from "soft scores"* as you can in battle points.

Look up the top 10 generals instead.




*I have a better term for it but cant be uttered here... lousy censorship

Asensur
09-06-2011, 16:12
Look up the top 10 generals instead.


Ok, let's assume everybody doesn't get extra points (given by opponents)

Tyranids Player (minimum 2 wins and 1 draw(12-5=3+3+1), maximum 3 wins, minimum 2 of 3 opponents gives him points(12-9=3))

Dark Angels Player (minimum 1 win and 2 draws(10-5=3+1+1), maximum 3 wins, minimum 1 of 3 opponents gives him points(10-9=1))

Deamons of Chaos Player (minimum 1 win and 2 draws(10-5=3+1+1), maximum 3 wins, minimum 1 of 3 opponents gives him points(10-9=1))

Space Wolves Player (minimum 1 win and 2 draws(10-5=3+1+1), maximum 3 wins, minimum 1 of 3 opponents gives him points(10-9=1))

These are the top 4 players at the tourney with total points. They all got at least one point each other from opponents cause of fair play/cool/painting... so each one has been targeted as a fair player and a good winner.

Now we have that the Nids player won at least 2 matches and got a draw or win at the third, and also at least two opponents who couldn't win against him gave him points!!!...Are you telling me that Nids can't win tournaments?

Bestaltan
09-06-2011, 16:32
Are you telling me that Nids can't win tournaments?

That's what most people think. The fact that I've won 6 of my last 9 tournaments (both local and regional) with my Nids tends to tell me otherwise. :D

Ravenous
09-06-2011, 17:36
Are you telling me that Nids can't win tournaments?

No, just that throne of skulls isnt a tournament that requires army skill but rather mouth and wrist strength.

naloth
09-06-2011, 17:55
That's what most people think. The fact that I've won 6 of my last 9 tournaments (both local and regional) with my Nids tends to tell me otherwise. :D

IME, 'Nids actually do better in tournaments (aka, you don't know what you're facing and need to prepare an all comers list) than local match-ups. You can really exploit the vulnerabilities if you know what you're going to be facing.

I was horribly disappointed with the 'Nid codex. It's poorly written (rules), poorly balanced internally and externally, and somewhat restrictive in what lists will work. The FAQ was a further insult.

As for general power it's average. It's a step below IG/SW/BA levels but it's certainly capable of generating lists that will give a good general a chance against any army. If your local meta doesn't focus on meching up every unit you'll probably excel.

Carnage
09-06-2011, 18:18
That's what most people think. The fact that I've won 6 of my last 9 tournaments (both local and regional) with my Nids tends to tell me otherwise. :D

I've won 5 of my last 7 Tournaments. It's not impossible to win tournaments with Tyranids, clearly. My 2 losses were;

1. I screwed up against Blood Angels and left my Tervigon 3.5 inches from my home objective. Wouldn't have been an issue if the game didn't end turn 3, as I would have tabled him Turn 4.

2. Completely and utterly raped by a Space Wolf player. Tabled me turn 5. Highlights including losing a third of my army points wise first turn. The player was a 2 times Ard' Boyz finalist and probably one of the best players I've ever faced, and he plays Space Wolves.

Tyranids can win (best general) in tournaments if;

You face bad players with bad armies. These guys are everywhere and make up like 50% of the tournament scene...see the army list section for a wide selection for example. Easy win

You face bad players with good armies Net listers/FotM gamers. I'd say these guys make up ~20% of the tournament population. Easy win, but occasionally hard counters or randomness can make it close.

You face good players with "bad" armies. People with good skill that refuse to optimize, are playing for fun, or are plain stubborn and sticking to old/bad armies (Probably the category you and I fit in). So either a poor army, or a good army with a poor list. I'd say this group of people make up ~20% of the tournament scene and IMO, are my favorite gamers to play against. Usually a close and fun game.

You face a player of top end skill with a top end army. Barring dice blessing you, mission rigged in your favor, or an act of god, you are done. Luckily the odds of getting a good player who also plays a good army with a good list is super rare in my experience, something like 1-2% of tourny gamers. But man, when it happens you see every flaw in the army magnified 100 times over.

I still play my Tyranids in tournys because they aren't more marines. Seeing more marines makes me really sad. I also enjoy a bit of a challenge. If I were to proxy my Ultramarines as BA or SW I wager I'd win even more games and tournys, but I'd probably have less fun doing it. My goal ATM is to become the best TYRANID player possible because if I wanted to be the best PLAYER possible or have the highest win ratio I would just play something else.

Bestaltan
09-06-2011, 18:44
You face a player of top end skill with a top end army. Barring dice blessing you, mission rigged in your favor, or an act of god, you are done. Luckily the odds of getting a good player who also plays a good army with a good list is super rare in my experience, something like 1-2% of tourny gamers. But man, when it happens you see every flaw in the army magnified 100 times over.


Well that's odd. I guess my army wasn't told that, as I tabled one VERY good Space Wolf player at ATC, and nearly tabled another with my Nids. Nearly tabled a very good GK opponent also.

Blink
09-06-2011, 19:00
I do just fine at tournaments with Tyranid. There are crafty players like me, Bestaltan, and some others who have a few tricks we individually utilize to clobber out those nasty Space Wolves lists and others.

That said, good enough players can beat our Tyranid lists with the right strategies; I know I can beat my own competitive list with just about 100% efficiency. Even Bestaltan's list (I put his list together tried my hand against it) I was able to clobber... Unless he has a different way of utilizing his army than what I know of it, he'll hit a roadblock as soon as he faces an opponent with enough know-how to deal with it.

The problem with Tyranid isn't their competitiveness at tournaments; it's that so many of the choices in the codex, no matter how badly you want to play them, will never be useful.

Lowmans
09-06-2011, 19:31
I don't care if I never win a tournament. I just picked up my first finecast model, a Broodlord. Ohhhhhhh, she's one sexy, sexy lady. :D

Bonzai
09-06-2011, 19:45
How are you tournament players handling GK's and DE lists?

Blink
09-06-2011, 19:58
DE I don't seem to have much of a problem with. Just get them into combat and they crumble... and their tanks are easy enough to pop even for Tyranid.

GK are giving Tyranid some trouble if only because of the Dreadknight and instant death. I've started taking the Doom of Malantai... 2/3 games it has dropped a Dreadknight the turn it came down, cementing its place in my all reserves list.

Carnage
09-06-2011, 19:59
How are you tournament players handling GK's and DE lists?

Prayer?

GKs are similar to Mech BA or SW, just with shorter range and force weapons instead of more numerous and less deadly attacks. Generally it ends up being a glorified game of paper-rock-scissors. Trying to keep gants away from Purifiers, MCs away from terminators and genestealers from getting shot up. All while keeping everything possible under SiTW.

DE, I've got nothing. The only DE player I've come across is my brother, and his first and only 2 games with the new codex he tabled me, twice in a row. Fewer MCs, more non-linear deployment...maybe poison their snacks/drink so they can't finish the game? Everything I come up with for DE is pure list tailoring, and therefore pretty useless.

Bestaltan
09-06-2011, 20:08
GK's aren't too bad if you just take fewer MC's. Also, GK's with halberds just become expensive space marines when hit with a genestealer unit with adrenal glands.

Speaking of genestealers.......Dreadknights are a joke if genestealers (with a broodlord.....always a broodlord) are around. No psychic defense, no walker rules, and the same leadership as my broodlord......no problem!!

Blink
09-06-2011, 20:21
Sometimes that's true Bestaltan... The Aegis has screwed over my Broodlord a couple times. Also the Dreadknight moves farther than genestealers and has a ranged flamer that might as well have a special rule saying "remove every genestealer except the Broodlord".

Playing Grey Knights, I haven't had much trouble against Genestealers and Broodlords with the Dreadknight, save for once when I was in a position to be assaulted by 3 units of them (this was more for fun; I usually wouldn't let myself get into that position)... And when the assault came, we hooked all the genestealers onto the Dreadknight barrel of monkeys style. It was hilarious and the Dreadknight surprisingly lasted 3 combats against them.

Bonzai
09-06-2011, 22:09
DE I don't seem to have much of a problem with. Just get them into combat and they crumble... and their tanks are easy enough to pop even for Tyranid.

GK are giving Tyranid some trouble if only because of the Dreadknight and instant death. I've started taking the Doom of Malantai... 2/3 games it has dropped a Dreadknight the turn it came down, cementing its place in my all reserves list.

The GK's were obviously not using warp quake. The Doom won't make it close enough with that up.

Over here, the current top DE lists tend to go with MSU venom spam. Something like 6 venoms and 3 ravagers. Each venom firing 12 poisoned shots a round, so thats 72 poisoned shots, 9 S8 shots, plus whatever the venoms are carrying, and any bikes or what have you. Sounds like a nightmare for Nids to me. The local Nid player also plays dark eldar (has for years), but lately he has even taken to playing Sister's of Battle.

Archangelion
09-06-2011, 23:04
Simple way to deal with DE poisoned weapon spam seems to me to be simple enough. Field as many T3 models as you can. Their cheap, so they will just soak up the incomeing fire. Stay clear of MCs when faceing DE, you will get shredded.

For DE vs Nids, I think I'd be takeing Disintegrator Cannons on my Ravagers, and Shredders as my special weapon on my squads, with Splinter Cannons as my heavy weapons choice for my squads. Tones of small arms fire that will shred Nids with impunity. No need for those S8 darklight weapons, there aren't any tanks, and the Nid's MCs are easy to fall with those dissies, or mass splinter fire.

althathir
09-06-2011, 23:25
I think part of why tryanids are considered underpowered, is because its hard to describe how to use them. Most armies have some "training wheel" units and when people are struggling the first advice people give is to run those units. For the most adding in these units tends to help who ever is asking for advice enough that they're fine (though they may have a crutch from that point on :D).

Nidz don't have that unit the army relies a lot more on positioning and synergy, you can't simply tell people what to do because they have to understand why your telling them that inorder to be able to adapt their strategies for playing againist a wide array of forces.

Bestaltan
09-06-2011, 23:32
@althathir--Great point. Nids are NOT to be tried without a lot of experience in 40k.

Archangelion
09-06-2011, 23:52
I think part of why tryanids are considered underpowered, is because its hard to describe how to use them. Most armies have some "training wheel" units and when people are struggling the first advice people give is to run those units. For the most adding in these units tends to help whoevers asking for advice enough that they're fine (though they may have a crutch from that point on :D).

Nidz don't have that unit the army relies a lot more on positioning and synergy, you can't simply tell people what to do because they have to understand why your telling them that inorder to be able to adapt their strategies for playing againist a wide array of forces.

To sum up, Nids have a very steep learning curve, that is very unforgiving.

Draconis
10-06-2011, 00:01
Also, considering a large part of 5th deals with cover and nids dont have access to grenades, does not help at all.

Threeshades
10-06-2011, 00:47
POWER LEVEL IS NOT THE POINT!

Because people keep bringing it up and just don't seem to get it. :shifty:

For the last time, the problem with nids is not that they dont have the competitive power level to win anything!

It's the extremely limited choice of units, that is caused by extremely crappy balance and the complete deviation from the tyranid fluff that every competitively playable tyranid list poses!


Let's take a few examples here:
Space Marines
Fluff: Space Marines usually operate as a small force when compared to most others but are fully capable of taking on an enemy that easily outnumbers them. They offer a variation of firepower and close combat aibility, with both of which they can achieve their goals.
Codex: Space Marine units range from effective shooting to effective close combat, they are more expensive per model than most other armies but they are certainly worth the cost.

Dark Eldar:
Fluff: Dark Eldar are known for lightning fast and mercilessly efficient strikes at their enemies but are also known to be few and fragile.
But there are also haemonculus covens bringing their resilient but rather slow creations to the mix.
Codex: Dark Eldar come in extremely fast with their Open fast skimmer transports and their aerial assault vehicles and pack a lot of punch in each of their weapons. Their close combatants are extremely deadly. But except for a few exceptions they are expensive and can't take a lot of punishment themselves.
Haemonculus creatures such as Taloi and Grotesques are slow but efficient and hard to kill units that add some resilience to the mix of units.

Orks:
Fluff: Orks are best known for swarming the battlefield with hordes and hordes of boys who will hack and shoot away at anything that isn't green. Despite their lack of aim, which might be lack of skill as well as it might be sheer unwillingness to look where they are pointing their guns, orks can stil ldeliver a fearsome hail of fire because of the sheer number of big guns they throw into the mix. They have a variety of ramshackle but somehow elegantly simple and efficient vehicles to support or carry them into the fray and some clans are also notorious for riding their whole army into the battle on these machines.
Codex: Orks can easily pack a huge number of guys, all sufficiently equipped to deal with almost anything in their way, their specialist boys can add anything from massive firepower which comes through sheer number of guns and they can field a number of different vehicles which are simple but effective and do just what they are made for. And if you want to go for speed freeks they can mount almost their entire army on transport vehicles and what is left in looted wagons and battlewagons.

Imperial Guard
Fluff: The imperial Guard typically brings sheer numbers to bear for any situation. Massive amounts of soldiers in the simplest cheapest equipment line up and take up heavy weapon teams in their ranks to bulk out their firepower, they are supported by a variety of heavy tanks and a few assault troops and vehicles which usually convince with their maneuverability more than sheer speed. Their main force usually digs in and fires at any approaching enemy from impressive gunlines, dealing damage at a distance through the sheer number of heavy weapons, The guard has a strict inflexible organization dividing regiments into platoons and platoons into squads.
They also are fielded mechanized, transported by chimeras whcih not only allow them to advance faster but also can provide fire support.
Codex: Imperial guard can be fielded in what is currently the most numerous of forces and dish out tremendous amounts of fire with the heavy weapons in their core squads alone. They have heavy tanks accompanying them and putting out equally impressive amounts of firepower with their ordnance weapons. You can field the entire army in transport vehicles which grant you both mobility and fire support. Their assault chaoices are maneuverable but some also offer a lot of extra speed.
The guard's strict organization is built into the army selection with platoons.


Now to the
Tyranids
Fluff: Tyranids are most notorious for their main offensives, incredible swarms of small critters such as hormagaunts and termagants drown the battlefield and anything or anyone on it in their masses. Larger more specialized creatures wade among the tides of creatures and use their specialized abilities either to provide control over the behaviour of their less intelligent kin or to fulfill special roles such as taking out heavily armoured enemies, wether at a distance or in close combat. Genestealers and lictors which landed earlier burst from their hideouts and take out strategic positions on the battlefield or exploit weakpoints in the enemy's defence all the while massive monstrous creatures stride forward across the battlefield leading charges to strike breaches into enemy defense lines and fortifications, or shooting down tanks with their massive bioweapons. More creatures rain from the sky as all of this happens and join the fray.
Codex: A few monstrous creatures, a bunch of large fire support creatures and a small band of gaunts build the main core of the army while a few genestealers outflank or infiltrate and sometimes something drops from the sky. Armies are never really numerous, unless a lucky tervigon gets to produce a lot of gants without rolling doubles and little to none of them are being shot away.


You see my point now maybe?

rocdocta
10-06-2011, 00:53
IME, 'Nids actually do better in tournaments (aka, you don't know what you're facing and need to prepare an all comers list) than local match-ups. You can really exploit the vulnerabilities if you know what you're going to be facing.

I was horribly disappointed with the 'Nid codex. It's poorly written (rules), poorly balanced internally and externally, and somewhat restrictive in what lists will work. The FAQ was a further insult.

As for general power it's average. It's a step below IG/SW/BA levels but it's certainly capable of generating lists that will give a good general a chance against any army. If your local meta doesn't focus on meching up every unit you'll probably excel.

thats the prob...where i am its all mech or IG guard mech...

Draconis
10-06-2011, 00:54
I look at the army options.

How many Ap 1,2,3 weapons do most armies have?
How many meltas?
How many ordnance?
How many fast moving transports?
How many long range (over 36") weapons?
How much armor?
How many high strength shots?
How many mobile units?
How many FOC changing units do they have?

The answer is usually a ton versus the nids little to medium.

Bestaltan
10-06-2011, 00:59
It's the extremely limited choice of units, that is caused by extremely crappy balance and the complete deviation from the tyranid fluff that every competitively playable tyranid list poses!


Complete deviation of Tyranid fluff? Really? Funny, because the army I run is made up of the background of that initial wave that hits a planet. I run a TON of genestealers and gargoyles, and as the entire army starts in reserves, it is VERY unnerving to every opponent I've faced in the past six months to go from no opposing models on the table to being completely overrun, usually in a single turn.

And at 2250 points, I run almost 100 models. Not too shabby for any horde army (Orks not included, obviously).

Yes, I will agree that the codex is terribly written, with terrible internal balance. But there are still ways to satisfy fluff, enjoyment, and competitiveness with the Tyranids. It just takes a LOT of patience to reach that zen, and with the pixie-stix intelligence that 5th edition cursed us with, VERY few gamers want to take that time to build that patience.

I've said it before to a fellow gamer at my last tournament......To fully understand the Tyranid codex, you need a Ph.D. in tabletop wargaming. But when you do understand it........:evilgrin:

Panzer MkIV
10-06-2011, 01:44
POWER LEVEL IS NOT THE POINT!

Because people keep bringing it up and just don't seem to get it. :shifty:

For the last time, the problem with nids is not that they dont have the competitive power level to win anything!

It's the extremely limited choice of units, that is caused by extremely crappy balance and the complete deviation from the tyranid fluff that every competitively playable tyranid list poses!

QFT

Being able to win in a competitive environment is IMO no indication wether a codex is good or bad: even the crappiest codex has several builds that can win tournaments when a good player uses them. It has no bearing if the codex has a good internal balance or not.

And that's what bothers me: I need a codex with a good internal balance in order to have fun. The Space Marine, Ork and Imperial Guard codices allows me to make a good, functional army with the models I like the most. That is something I can't do with Tyranids so they have no fun factor for me and that's why they are now gathering dust on my shelf

Draconis
10-06-2011, 01:46
If they would fix the obvious stuff, I'd be happy. Balance it out. If anti psyker stuff can work while in transports, ours should hit them as well. If they can have IC in pods, so should we. Fix the Trygon hole, and most importantly to me at least, fix Lictors. I dont understand how cruddace could gimp Lictors from attacking the turn they come in play and then turn around and give it to Ymgarls. Lictors are my fav model, both fluff and model wise. But to be blunt, they really pale in balance.

wyvirn
10-06-2011, 02:05
IMO, the 'power level' comparison is a symptom of why tyranids are ineffective, not the cause. The cause is a general failure of mechanics: synapse is a liability, anti-armor has to fight to get in, pyrovore can't keep things out of cover, etc. The reserve list does so well because the mechanics do.

SgtTaters
10-06-2011, 03:01
I figure any build of tyranids can be fluffy

I love tyranid Warriors and other medium size nids. I don't really care about the little four legged guys and genestealers are cool but I'm not interested in them, I think rippers have a cute quality to them.

For my ideal Tyranid army it'd be made up of Warriors stomping around shooting things, Lictors leaping out of cover and maybe Zoanthropes floating about blasting things.
And a bunch of ripper bases to surge forward and nibble things.
I don't think any fluff really fits this, but I like the image of the Tyranid Elite.

I think variety is fine and fluff can be made to fit whatever.
Eldar can field an army of... all mechanized, guardian swarms, aspect warrior elite, wraith wall, jetbike hosts

Orks can go super foot horde, super trukk horde, super bike horde, super elite nob horde, kan heavy, super shooty with lootas or all choppy

Space marines can field a bunch of scouts, bikes, speeders, terminators, landraiders, predators


variety in 40k is nice, so I don't think tyranids should be pidgeonholed to have a compulsory 100 termagaunts in all games.


But it is unfortunate if the "iconic" Tyranid list is very weak.

Blink
10-06-2011, 03:40
To whoever made a comment about my grey knight opponent failing to use warp quake... warp quake isnt all that common in the army as you might think. The competitive grey knights armies are either light on strike squads or subvert them all together by going all purifiers or henchmen.

Threeshades
10-06-2011, 09:21
Complete deviation of Tyranid fluff? Really? Funny, because the army I run is made up of the background of that initial wave that hits a planet. I run a TON of genestealers and gargoyles, and as the entire army starts in reserves, it is VERY unnerving to every opponent I've faced in the past six months to go from no opposing models on the table to being completely overrun, usually in a single turn.

And at 2250 points, I run almost 100 models. Not too shabby for any horde army (Orks not included, obviously).

Yes, I will agree that the codex is terribly written, with terrible internal balance. But there are still ways to satisfy fluff, enjoyment, and competitiveness with the Tyranids. It just takes a LOT of patience to reach that zen, and with the pixie-stix intelligence that 5th edition cursed us with, VERY few gamers want to take that time to build that patience.

I've said it before to a fellow gamer at my last tournament......To fully understand the Tyranid codex, you need a Ph.D. in tabletop wargaming. But when you do understand it........:evilgrin:
So you can make the scout wave force but none of the following Especially not the main force. That's just making it slightly less bad.

100 models at 2250 is measly. 2250 is already big battle, ive seen orks and guard fielding 100+ models at 1500 easily and running very well with that.

Blink
10-06-2011, 10:20
You can make the Tyranids fluffy and competitive, Threeshades... in fact, their most competitive build is probably their most fluffy (all reserves)...

Still, that "most competitive build" is easy to mitigate with many armies employing a couple basic strategies. Bestaltan seems to be in denial about the effectiveness of the list and his quip about needing a Ph.D is fairly rubbish. He can brag about his tournament record all he wants but truth be told it's merely ignorance of proper strategies on the opponent's part that's allowing Bestaltan (and me) to win with the lists we do.

The Tyranid codex is a mess, but you can still build an awesome fluffy list that will catch unprepared opponents off guard.

Bestaltan
10-06-2011, 11:52
Still, that "most competitive build" is easy to mitigate with many armies employing a couple basic strategies. Bestaltan seems to be in denial about the effectiveness of the list and his quip about needing a Ph.D is fairly rubbish. He can brag about his tournament record all he wants but truth be told it's merely ignorance of proper strategies on the opponent's part that's allowing Bestaltan (and me) to win with the lists we do.


Much of this thread has been devoted to the tournament effectiveness of Tyranids. I'll be the first to admit that in one-on-one games at the ol' LGS, it is VERY easy for nearly every other codex to tailor a list to fight Bugs. Some of the worst beatings I have ever received in 40k have been the past 16 months in friendly pick-up games with my Bugs.

Tournaments, however, are another matter. You have to fight with what you've got. This is where the right Tyranid list shines, against "all-comer" lists. I brag about my tournament record simply because I've had to face easily close to three dozen opponents in tournaments the last 16 months. All with different armies. All with different strategies. And the all-reserve list has beaten (nearly) all of them.

So what are these "basic strategies" that you yourself seem to be bragging about, here and in other threads? Because my guess is I have my own "basic strategies" to counter them. There are always two people that play a game, Blink.

Paedan
10-06-2011, 15:16
As I've already said countless times on the Warseer forums, you can win with the current Nids codex, it's just that you'll either be strapped for choice in terms of competitive/good units (mainly Tervigons, Hive Guard, Genestealers, Gargoyles and Trygons), or will have a harder-than-necessary time competing and winning with lists made up mainly with the other units.... I'd love to see someone use a list with 9 Pyrovores in Spores, imagine the shock value on your opponent's face = )

Personally, I'm taking a short break from my Nids, painting up some Grey Knights now....

Blink
10-06-2011, 16:37
Middle of the board crowding and unit sacrifice/baiting... which is particularly effective against you since your list relies even more on outflank than mine. It's not the internet talking when I talk about crowding the middle. My entire all comers 2,500 grey knights or space wolves or Necron lists can fit in just a small part of the middle third of the board. Any counters would have to really change up how you play your list from the start.

fwacho
10-06-2011, 17:12
please note my shift bar is broken so forgive caps.

i run mid nids with some heavies. i'm experiementing with the parasite. I love my venomthrope. i even tried to buy a second but the store was out. i finally broke down and bought a second trygon and some hiveguard. i won't give up my carny though i run him with fragmine and adrenal glands to get init 4 on charge and instakill big stuff. i find him useful.

it true though that the nids are all about synergy.

also i fit over 150 models into my 1500 ork list.

althathir
10-06-2011, 17:32
Much of this thread has been devoted to the tournament effectiveness of Tyranids. I'll be the first to admit that in one-on-one games at the ol' LGS, it is VERY easy for nearly every other codex to tailor a list to fight Bugs. Some of the worst beatings I have ever received in 40k have been the past 16 months in friendly pick-up games with my Bugs.

Tournaments, however, are another matter. You have to fight with what you've got. This is where the right Tyranid list shines, against "all-comer" lists. I brag about my tournament record simply because I've had to face easily close to three dozen opponents in tournaments the last 16 months. All with different armies. All with different strategies. And the all-reserve list has beaten (nearly) all of them.

So what are these "basic strategies" that you yourself seem to be bragging about, here and in other threads? Because my guess is I have my own "basic strategies" to counter them. There are always two people that play a game, Blink.

Yeah nids are one of the easiest forces to tailor againist, its just for the most part most armies are running a lot of things they wouldn't touch to do so. Nids are fair from the only book that suffers from this a bit though.

TBH, I haven't played nids in this edition, I want to but I can't afford a new army at this point, but through reading battle reports I've seen how a lot of units can be made effective. Its just I have enough experience to see why they work, and without Nids having an "Island" unit I think peope give up on them on before they reach that point.


Middle of the board crowding and unit sacrifice/baiting... which is particularly effective against you since your list relies even more on outflank than mine. It's not the internet talking when I talk about crowding the middle. My entire all comers 2,500 grey knights or space wolves or Necron lists can fit in just a small part of the middle third of the board. Any counters would have to really change up how you play your list from the start.

I'm gonna use this post as an example, because these are the style of posts people get when they ask for help (not trying to pick on you Blink, just making a point)

The advice is fairly simple, castle in the middle third of the board so outflankers can't get quick charges in, and have bait units on your flanks designed to be speed bumps.

This isn't bad advice, but its really simple and doesn't apply to all mission types.

In capture and control, your basically playing for the draw if you do this, and in Sieze ground missions you have to some elements that can at least contest inorder to have a good chance at winning (unless you win the roll off and there are 3 objectives and you place two in the middle area your castling and even then they should be close to the outer portions of your castle), either way both of these missions should make you change your strategy. With most armies its fairly easy to take a simple strategy for use againist an opposing force and modify it a bit to meet the mission parameters and be successful.

For Nids imo you have to have a plan in mind for each mission, and for dealing with your opponent. If they castle in a capture in control mission your gonna need a completely different strategy then what you'd use againist a force that castles in a kill point mission. Its that extra level planning combined with not having a crutch unit that make nids a tough force to learn. They're not worthless or useless they just take a lot more effort to figure out.

Blink
10-06-2011, 17:45
No, althathir, you are not playing for a draw if you do the castling in a C&C mission. The turtling against an all reserves nid list only lasts until they (mostly) come on turn 2. After that you prioritize your targets where they came in. The sacrifice unit is meant to give them one thing to go after to put them in a good position to retaliate or else they get nothing at all.

My all reserves list has evolved to include more shooting to counter that and ensure things are dying the turn I come down, mitigating the threats.

You said you haven't played against nids... I play both as them and against them. I have great confidence in my all reserves Tyranid list against anyone who doesn't ALSO play all reserves Tyranid lists and plays a turn or two in advance.

Ulrig
10-06-2011, 18:22
It kills me how fanboys try and defend one of the worst codex's ever to make it to print.

The reasonable of us....this is not you fanboys....are saying we know it can be competitive, but the codex and therefore the army is nothing short of horrible. The negatives of this codex heavily outweigh any of your reason.

shandy
10-06-2011, 18:57
It kills me how fanboys try and defend one of the worst codex's ever to make it to print.

The reasonable of us....this is not you fanboys....are saying we know it can be competitive, but the codex and therefore the army is nothing short of horrible. The negatives of this codex heavily outweigh any of your reason.

I like the assumption that anyone speaking postively is a fanboy and incapable of reason while those with the negative attitude are the ones with the well thought out, reasonable arguements that are also backed up with evidence.

It could be that peoples personable experiences may come into it. In my area I know a Nid player who does well against people in tournies and friendly games whether people tailor for him or not. This shapes my view of the effectiveness of the Nids codex- he fields a variety of units and will swop and change.

No doubt others have seen the opposite which has influenced their opinion.

fwacho
10-06-2011, 19:08
the nid dex is not bad... it just takes the finesse of an old school sister's player to make it work. It requires thought and planning. there is no automatic win button associated with it.

Ulrig
10-06-2011, 19:35
Pretty much all of it is crap and there is no synergy, points and FAQs that make no sense and little of it actually works....but the fans still point to the jewel in the rough. The "rough" being a pile of excrement from Micheal Moore's @$$ after he went on a Taco Bell binge.

Megad00mer
10-06-2011, 19:40
the nid dex is not bad... it just takes the finesse of an old school sister's player to make it work. It requires thought and planning. there is no automatic win button associated with it.

This kind of comment makes me wanna scream.

Hard to use DOES NOT = "Finesse Army"!

Yes, the codex is hard to use. That's because it's a badly written book, with loads of useless units and options, terrible internal balance and very few options for competing in most current metas.

Look at the Dark Eldar, a codex widely considered to be the best of 5th edition. That's a finesse book. Written by a talented rules writer to have a somewhat steep learning curve but at the same time, be an army that has all the tools needed to be extremely competitive and quite scary.

Every unit (with maybe the exception of Mandrakes) is useful. All the Wargear and options, useful. Every special rule, fun, characterful and, yep, useful. Numerous different army lists are possible, fun and competitive.

Dark Eldar take finesse, but are incredibly rewarding once you get a handle on them.

Tyranids remain frustrating because so few things in the book actually "work", and even those things that do are overcosted and pale in comparison to comparable units in other armies. Iconic creatures like Lictors and Carnifexes are laughably bad. Tyranids lack the needed tools to be good at any facet of the game. For example; yes, our CC creatures are scary as hell but are almost completely shut down by terrain due to lack of assault grenades.

There's a huge difference between a "finesse" army and one that's hard to use because their rules are crap on toast. Stop confusing the two.

Ulrig
10-06-2011, 19:44
This kind of comment makes me wanna scream.

Hard to use DOES NOT = "Finesse Army"!

Yes, the codex is hard to use. That's because it's a badly written book, with loads of useless units and options, terrible internal balance and very few options for competing in most current metas.

Look at the Dark Eldar, a codex widely considered to be the best of 5th edition. That's a finesse book. Written by a talented rules writer to have a somewhat steep learning curve but at the same time, be an army that has all the tools needed to be extremely competitive and quite scary.

Every unit (with maybe the exception of Mandrakes) is useful. All the Wargear and options, useful. Every special rule, fun, characterful and, yep, useful. Numerous different army lists are possible, fun and competitive.

Dark Eldar take finesse, but are incredibly rewarding once you get a handle on them.

Tyranids remain frustrating because so few things in the book actually "work", and even those things that do are overcosted and pale in comparison to comparable units in other armies. Iconic creatures like Lictors and Carnifexes are laughably bad. Tyranids lack the needed tools to be good at any facet of the game. For example; yes, our CC creatures are scary as hell but are almost completely shut down by terrain due to lack of assault grenades.

There's a huge difference between a "finesse" army and one that's hard to use because their rules are crap on toast. Stop confusing the two.

As well as you said this....I still do not think they will get it.

Blink
10-06-2011, 19:55
Even if they are a "finesse" army, it's hilarious that Tyranid — the most bestial of all the races in 40k — exist under that description.

Bestaltan
10-06-2011, 20:01
Any counters would have to really change up how you play your list from the start.

At the point values you're talking about, my mawlocs and Ymgarl genestealers would like to say hi to your center turtle.

Blink
10-06-2011, 20:02
Of course they would, that's why you prepare for them.

Souleater
10-06-2011, 20:04
.... our CC creatures are scary as hell...

I don't think they are scary. Daemons are more badass.

Blink
10-06-2011, 20:10
Tyranid monsters are less scary because you can blow them away with high strength shots.

6 wound monsters are great and all, but they die far easier than I think GW (or rather Cruddace) anticipated.

Souleater
10-06-2011, 20:20
T4 and three wounds die pretty easily, too. /shrug

althathir
10-06-2011, 20:21
No, althathir, you are not playing for a draw if you do the castling in a C&C mission. The turtling against an all reserves nid list only lasts until they (mostly) come on turn 2. After that you prioritize your targets where they came in. The sacrifice unit is meant to give them one thing to go after to put them in a good position to retaliate or else they get nothing at all.

My all reserves list has evolved to include more shooting to counter that and ensure things are dying the turn I come down, mitigating the threats.

You said you haven't played against nids... I play both as them and against them. I have great confidence in my all reserves Tyranid list against anyone who doesn't ALSO play all reserves Tyranid lists and plays a turn or two in advance.

I've played againist them alot :D I just don't have them and if I had a few hundred extra dollars I would.

So basically what're saying is that if you turtle on turn 2 when they come on the board and you just table them? its not hard for nids to get unit onto to there home objective, and move units into a position to keep you off it. Sure if they just put everything on the flanks and move forward and charge they should lose.

Blink
10-06-2011, 20:26
Sure if they just put everything on the flanks and move forward and charge they should lose.

You would be surprised. Outflanking and all reserves is a great way for Tyranid to WIN in the current environment. Nids surrounding you is never a good thing.

Most people don't respond properly to the outflanking strategy because it's accompanied by Mawlocs and Ymgarls who are the IMMEDIATE threat and then before they know it, the Genestealers are in their grill as well.

althathir
10-06-2011, 20:43
You would be surprised. Outflanking and all reserves is a great way for Tyranid to WIN in the current environment. Nids surrounding you is never a good thing.

Most people don't respond properly to the outflanking strategy because it's accompanied by Mawlocs and Ymgarls who are the IMMEDIATE threat and then before they know it, the Genestealers are in their grill as well.

Right, I agree, im just saying blindly charging is a bad thing, and I don't think that simply knowing what to shoot at first means nids autolose. If an opponent turtles, and I know its advanteous for them to say in that position, I'll move to force a draw so they have to do something to win. At that point if the army that turtles can't force me to move they have too (and in a capture and control mission I'm not going put my objective in line of sight of yours.) If they can't I know my objectives safe and can throw most of ny army at their force.

Blink
10-06-2011, 20:49
In all reserves, Nids typically go second or want to. Whatever side you place the objective on is going to be in my deployment zone and I'm placing my objective in the middle.

Anyway, that's all speculation and varies game to game though. With Nids, you shoot for contesting their objective and keeping them off yours.

Edit: AS Tyranid, you don't have the benefit of tank shocking to get to objectives, so you have to muscle your way into it. This is where Mawlocs come in handy.

althathir
10-06-2011, 21:03
Yeah but if im going second you still place your objective first iirc.

That's pretty much the general strategy for everybody :)

fwacho
10-06-2011, 21:28
megad.... let me put it this way. yes, most of the mc's are overpriced by around 20 pts. yes pyrovores utterly suck. (if they had given them just one more attack they would have been usable)
however... the army relies on combos to function. thus "finesse." A person can not just plunk down any units on the table and expect to win. thus "finesse." It's taken an extremely long time for the internet community to discover that venomthropes are actually useful (shoot, they were like my third unit) combine with catalyst they can be very scary boosting other units. throw in the prime and there is more power level added. now add in tyrant powers... more boosting. gargoyles are underpriced.

i expect the nids to gain a lot of ground in the next edition. once rhinos and chimera's get more expensive and cover saves go back to 5+ the nids become very viable (yes, that not right now, I realize)

weaknesses...
gray knights are terrifying at least by charging them we take away an attack and don't let them use psyk-out grenades. We can nullify force weapons and dreadknights by throwing hordes of toxic little guys at them.
DE poison is bad news but aside from venom splinter cannons how much of that is actually used.

missile launchers bother me, but I can deal with that.

yes the points are off but they are playable. with some cunning they can win.

Notanoob
10-06-2011, 21:56
T4 and three wounds die pretty easily, too. /shrug
It works for Space Marines and such, but only because they have a 3+ save base and a 4++ invulnerable save, can hide in squads or in vehicles. It doesn't work nearly as well for warriors who have a mediocre save, no invulnerable save, and no transports.


I like to look at it this way though. Take two average players of equal skill. Give one a Space Wolves army, and the other a Tyranid army, and have them face each other. I don't think that anyone will contest that the Wolves player will win more games. Because they are of equal skill, and assuming that there are no other strange things like wacy terrain setups or weighted dice, the only variable left is the armies themselves. Since the Tyranid one lost more, it has to be inferior, which is exactly what it is.

Also, please don't hit me with the synergy stuff. They don't have synergy really. As Capn Wellpoint put it (on Warpshadow), Tyranids have synergy like an Internal Combustion Engine has synergy with gas; it needs the other to function at all, which is why Tyranids armies can fold spectacularly like a deck of cards if you hit the right units.

Bonzai
10-06-2011, 22:10
A person can not just plunk down any units on the table and expect to win. thus "finesse."


That is a definition that pretty much applies to all armies. I played nids for a bit. It wasn't a power list, but I thought it was ok (shooty nids). I was about 50/50 with them if you didn't count space wolves. Long Fangs were a nemesis of mine, as they would snipe my Synapse. I would either face 23+ rockets a turn, or around 15 and have to deal with Thunder wolves with 3+ inv saves mopping up. I haven't played the list since DE have been released, but I imagine it wouldn't be pretty. Especially with all the venom spam we have here.

Megad00mer
10-06-2011, 23:32
megad.... let me put it this way. yes, most of the mc's are overpriced by around 20 pts. yes pyrovores utterly suck. (if they had given them just one more attack they would have been usable)
however... the army relies on combos to function. thus "finesse." A person can not just plunk down any units on the table and expect to win. thus "finesse."


"You keep using that word...I do not think it means what you think it means..."

As Bonzai stated, what you describe is basically a tenant of the game itself. That's not finesse.

Finesse: Maneuvering a Dark Eldar Raider across a table, using Aethersails and terrain in combination to lessen or nullify enemy fire.

Not Finesse: Plunking down Venomthropes which at best can hope for a 4+ cover save and hope my opponent is dumb enough not to shoot em, even though one lascannon or krak missle is really all it takes, and then all benefits are immediately lost.

Just cuz ya put the Venomthrope within 6" of other units so they gain the spore cloud, doesn't mean you're using "Finesse". It means you can read and then follow rules.

Difference....

Threeshades
10-06-2011, 23:50
This kind of comment makes me wanna scream.

Hard to use DOES NOT = "Finesse Army"!

Yes, the codex is hard to use. That's because it's a badly written book, with loads of useless units and options, terrible internal balance and very few options for competing in most current metas.

Look at the Dark Eldar, a codex widely considered to be the best of 5th edition. That's a finesse book. Written by a talented rules writer to have a somewhat steep learning curve but at the same time, be an army that has all the tools needed to be extremely competitive and quite scary.

Every unit (with maybe the exception of Mandrakes) is useful. All the Wargear and options, useful. Every special rule, fun, characterful and, yep, useful. Numerous different army lists are possible, fun and competitive.

Dark Eldar take finesse, but are incredibly rewarding once you get a handle on them.

Tyranids remain frustrating because so few things in the book actually "work", and even those things that do are overcosted and pale in comparison to comparable units in other armies. Iconic creatures like Lictors and Carnifexes are laughably bad. Tyranids lack the needed tools to be good at any facet of the game. For example; yes, our CC creatures are scary as hell but are almost completely shut down by terrain due to lack of assault grenades.

There's a huge difference between a "finesse" army and one that's hard to use because their rules are crap on toast. Stop confusing the two.

Quoted for truth. I would quote it several times in separate posts but that would be spamming.


Also, yeah, putting your important units near a Venomthrope to get a coversave, your termagants near a tervigon to get free adrenals and toxin, and your strong CCs near a tyrant with Old Adversary to get rerolls is not finesse. It's just doing working with the obvious. If it took any of you any more time to figure out than reading the rule's text, that any of these things might grant an advantage that's pitiful.

I don't even call that synergy! It's just buffs. Every army has that! Synergy is when your units actually work together to give advantages, like say there's a unit that had the special rule to temporarily immobilize enemy vehicles, and they would use that to stop an enemy tank, so that your carnifex has opportunity to get close to it and charge in and take it out, that's synergy! If your lictors pop up behind an enemy gun emplacement to get rid off enemy firepower so that your monstrous creatures can push through, that is synergy.
Having a unit of gaunts surround a trygon to ward off enemy charges and allow it to advance without getting stuck in unnecessary close combats is synergy.
But except for that one fictional example these are all things that any other army can do just as well and having a special rule or psychic power that grants a bonus to another model is just a buff. It's no more difficult to use than applying a models own special rules on itself, like a hormagaunt's reroll of 1s to hit with its scything talons.

Hicks
11-06-2011, 01:24
Quoted for truth. I would quote it several times in separate posts but that would be spamming.


Also, yeah, putting your important units near a Venomthrope to get a coversave, your termagants near a tervigon to get free adrenals and toxin, and your strong CCs near a tyrant with Old Adversary to get rerolls is not finesse. It's just doing working with the obvious. If it took any of you any more time to figure out than reading the rule's text, that any of these things might grant an advantage that's pitiful.

I don't even call that synergy! It's just buffs. Every army has that! Synergy is when your units actually work together to give advantages, like say there's a unit that had the special rule to temporarily immobilize enemy vehicles, and they would use that to stop an enemy tank, so that your carnifex has opportunity to get close to it and charge in and take it out, that's synergy! If your lictors pop up behind an enemy gun emplacement to get rid off enemy firepower so that your monstrous creatures can push through, that is synergy.
Having a unit of gaunts surround a trygon to ward off enemy charges and allow it to advance without getting stuck in unnecessary close combats is synergy.
But except for that one fictional example these are all things that any other army can do just as well and having a special rule or psychic power that grants a bonus to another model is just a buff. It's no more difficult to use than applying a models own special rules on itself, like a hormagaunt's reroll of 1s to hit with its scything talons.

QFT. Our book is the opposite of synergy. When you can't go near an enemy unit that's been tarpited by gaunts with you MCs because that would kill them, something is very not synergetic.

fwacho
11-06-2011, 06:48
got a 2500 point game in with my nids tonight against a newish SM player. I suffered 206 wounds over the course of the game. I had 7 wounds left on table. Opponent had a little over a third of his army left. I won. I started the game with 171 wounds on 72 models with 26 of those being 6T. my single venomthrope lasted till the very last turn. the prime escorting him was only synapse I had left. My tervigon put out 43 termigants in 3 broods (best ever) although most of those models died due to templates scattering and landing on them by accident.

model of the match went to my rending claw, scything talon warriors who took down TH/SS with a very minimal amount of help from a Carnifex I am unwilling to leave behind.

Yes again, Nids die in droves... they are meant to do that. yes they are heavily overpointed. and yes (because I know you want to hear me say it) the codex needs some serious love ( and a fair FAQ ) please remember this FAQ came out very quickly before hot heads had time to calm down and think it through. (I'm not defending GW here, but quick decisions don't ever seem to go well for them)

ALSO tyranids were designed to have ranged anti-tank as a weakness (I am in favor of this as it makes our army a little more unique). up close we can get it done with fexes, Trygons, and tyrants ( just like in the fluff)... its just the getting there is killing us right now. I still say leave the heavy venom cannon as it is. it is supposed to suppress firing until the MC can get there and finish the job personally.

I don't think we want a return to the old nids ( nidzilla was so overpowered once upon a time) but we would like a bit of the flavor. Honestly a rules addendum published in WD to change a point value or 3 and re-write / alternate arment for harpies, pyrovores, fexes, and even doom would go along way to reviving sales.

On another note I'm beginning to think Regen is pretty much useless.

The venomthropes 5+ cover save is more of a slowing feature to the army, and it seems like it only rarely works for me. The only real value is in making that lead wall of catalysted gants more dangerous to be assaulted.

I have also been slowly losing faith in my hive tyrant. I believe I just equipped my wrong. Although paroxism has paid off a few times both for and against me by opponents.

I'm struggling to get my parasite to work effectively. I've only had him 4 games but even with my gargoyles running with him he seems to always just die without causing any disruption worth mentioning.

my Zoeys in a pod are a bright spot. if I can target a big enough tank they usually do passably. (please be aware that I run a warrior heavy army so everything needs missile launcher attention by my opponents)

Trygons seem accurately priced as does the tyranid prime and tervigon

my nid record is about 50-50 but most of those wins are scraped by and the losses pretty rough which only serves to strengthen the argument of those before this post.

Blink
11-06-2011, 07:02
please remember this FAQ came out very quickly before hot heads had time to calm down and think it through. (I'm not defending GW here, but quick decisions don't ever seem to go well for them)

What? The FAQ for the Tyranid took like 6 months to come out. In fact Blood Angels were released and the Blood Angel FAQ was released by the time the Tyranid FAQ came out as well. It wasn't much of a quick decision.

Ventus
11-06-2011, 14:49
Exactly. The nid FAQ took about twice as long as other armies to come out. I don't know why you thought the FAQ was a quick decision. Perhaps it was because of the boneheaded decisions (which implied a hurried and ill-considered FAQ) that were added along with the obvious but necessary rules clarification for some aspects of the poorly written codex.

As many people have stated they can win games with nids. There are some interesting ideas and some strong units in the dex such as hive guard. And though many of us will have varying views on some of the units in the book and its overall effectiveness, I cannot understand why anyone would think the nid dex is a good product. Also the way GW/Cruddace changed the dex from the previous one and how that affected previous nid players is unforgivable (and no I did not play nidzilla and expected the removal of elite fexes). The lack of support/kits for necessary models and biomorphs was not what it could have been, while GW felt it was necessary to create a huge pile of unnecessary units in the dex (eg T-fex, a role easily filled by the carnifex, or rupture cannon, a gun that could easily be a modified venom cannon). Why not just add a few new units with models in a first/second wave and put some sculpting effort to warrior wings/swords/whips or hive tyrant wings, etc? As many have said the dex seems rushed with poorly thought-out and written units/rules that often did not function effectively the day the codex was released (trygon tunnel and lictor pheromone trail come to mind).

The topper is that GW does not seem to care that they released a poor product and has done nothing to correct it (through a decent FAQ/errata if not a whole new book (gotta have a dream)). Seriously though, there are many people here that have provided excellent ideas on how to errata the nid book to make it leaps and bounds better - not with the idea of being overpowered - just to be an effective codex where you can build a variety of lists that are effective and fun, and the player does not have to be a top 40k player to stand a decent chance of winning versus the 5E dexes using good lists.

Sorry for the rant.

shedim
11-06-2011, 15:17
Sorry for the rant.

Why sorry? Like you said, the Nid dex is just plain terrible and there's nothing else to add. Tyranids will be useless for several years and releasing such a book with big FUs all across the pages shows perfectly, how much GW cares about us. Especially Xenos books have always been meh at best.

Draconis
11-06-2011, 16:12
Would say "useless" exactly. But certainly subpar.

Walls
11-06-2011, 17:19
You wanna know why, OP?

Because people are dumb!

/win!

Hey, it's as good as any other argument on Warseer! ;)

innerwolf
11-06-2011, 18:32
You wanna know why, OP?

Because people are dumb!

/win!

Hey, it's as good as any other argument on Warseer! ;)

Megad00mer and Threeshades have posted high quality arguments in the last 4 pages. Yours is bad trolling, or failing to be funny.

Walls
11-06-2011, 19:06
It's not actually trolling... it's lack of humor. On that I can agree.

I tend to agree with the people who are arguing against the OP. It's a matter of knowing how to use them... and really, when. It's not an army you pick up, point and click and win. They work MUCH like Eldar where there is a lot of unit synergy and it takes a really good player to know how to use them right.

That said, the guys winning with Nids are probably winning lots of games anyhow.

I do think Nids are fantastic for LGS play and garagebeerhammer. They are a fantastic looking iconic army within the 40kverse.

Ghorhammer
11-06-2011, 20:04
I have been playing this game for 15 years, which is probably longer than some of you have been alive, and I have to say that I have never, on one single occasion lost to a Tyranid army, friendly game, tournament, or otherwise.

Now that said, they're not terrible, because I've seen a lot of people loose to them, its just never been me and the reason for that is that I do my homework.

The problem with the Tyranid force is that, one it is unforgiving of mistakes, and two, if your opponent knows what its capable of, you're screwed. Against an opponent that understands how the tyranid army works, and knows how to exploit it's weaknesses, there is a very slim chance to even pull a draw, much less a victory.

I've won games on the 2nd turn against players that are over-dependent on creatures like Termagaunts and don't include enough Hive Mind creatures.

Likewise the flood of genestealers is fairly easy to deal with. I know its counter-intuitive but, ASSAULT THEM! And when you do so, do it with stuff like Defilers or Dreadnaughts that they have a very hard time hurting.

toddznidz
12-06-2011, 01:49
The only thing my wraiths fear in the nid codex are;

One "devil"-fex, "devil_-rant, or 6 spitter-warriors = 3 dead wraiths. How do they stay alive long enough to get to Trygons?


There is definitely synergy in the nid dex but unfortunately it is also the biggest achillies heels of he codex.

I don't know what you mean by "Synergy". The only thing remotely close to "Synergy" are the V-thropes, and they feel like "Oh crap, they die in droves. We better give them something to take cover and defensive grenades with them."


There are many ways to win with Nids, it is just people who are too lazy to guess how.

This post is clueless. I am a dedicated Nid player, and I win more than I lose. But I live in the real world. Guessing has nothing to do with it. Your accusation of lazy is insulting (to put it nicely).


2. Completely and utterly raped by a Space Wolf player. Tabled me turn 5. Highlights including losing a third of my army points wise first turn. The player was a 2 times Ard' Boyz finalist and probably one of the best players I've ever faced, and he plays Space Wolves.

THIS is the problem with Nids. They do fine until they meet THIS guy. Solid list with a guy who knows how to use it. Bestaltan needs to get out of his little pond. Reserve lists are easy to beat (just make them go first and put your army in reserve), and hordes don't work on a time limit (they take too long to move). To have a "PhD in table-top wargaming", one must first attend the University. Mawlocs and Marley's? Does he not play ANY mech lists? Do none of his opponents field ONE heavy flamer? Have any of his opponents bothered to read the rules for Marleys? The last time I faced Marleys with SMs, they did what they do, then I just flew around with my 60 point LS Storm w\ Heavy Flamer killing them.


I don't care if I never win a tournament. I just picked up my first finecast model, a Broodlord. Ohhhhhhh, she's one sexy, sexy lady. :D

Now you are just being ridiculous. Everyone knows Broodlords are boys, and the Tyrants are girls. Just look at the cod-piece! Have you never seen "Aliens"?


the nid dex is not bad... it just takes the finesse of an old school sister's player to make it work. It requires thought and planning. there is no automatic win button associated with it.

By "Finesse", do you mean cheat? The next SoB player I meet who accurately keeps track of his faith points will be the first.


You would be surprised. Outflanking and all reserves is a great way for Tyranid to WIN in the current environment.

Only against players who have never seen outflanking, Mawlocs, or Marleys. You can win with Nids, but that ain't the way. Mawlocs are too inconsistent to rely on, and Marleys will never make it in to a solid Nid list over v-thropes, hive-guard, or even zoes. Marleys are just too easy to beat in deployment.


You wanna know why, OP?

Because people are dumb!

Ignorance.

itcamefromthedeep
12-06-2011, 01:52
I have been playing this game for 15 years, which is probably longer than some of you have been alive, and I have to say that I have never, on one single occasion lost to a Tyranid army, friendly game, tournament, or otherwise.As it happens, in a similar time frame I don't think I've ever lost to Imperial Guard or Dark Eldar. Even with my Tyranids, and even with the new codex.

Now that said, they're not terrible, because I've seen a lot of people lose to them, its just never been me and the reason for that is, well, a number of things. Doing my homework on them is helpful, but there's a bunch more that went into that anomalous record. I'm not about to extrapolate from my experience that those armies are junk, because they're not.

I could go on and mirror your comments about Guard and Dark Eldar, where the same kind of logic sounds plausible. You're trying to say that any player worth his salt can beat Tyranids with great regularity, and that doesn't seem to be the case.

---

In other news, I just won a tournament at my LGS today with Tyranids.

---

EDIT: "Marleys"? Really, toddznidz. Who came up with that little gem?

Ghorhammer
12-06-2011, 01:56
I second the comment about SoB and Faith Points.

SgtTaters
12-06-2011, 01:56
so, what are the tournament winning Tyranid lists like then?
Are they cookie cutter style netlists?

What makes them different from netlist IG and Space Wolves that makes them worse?

Ghorhammer
12-06-2011, 02:06
there is no cookie cutter answer to the 'how do I build my army question' it depends on your play style. It doesn't matter how waterproof your army list is if it doesn't suit you its not going to work because you're not going to do it right.

For example, I play the 'fire superiority' army, why, because it's how the US Army works and I'm intimately familiar with it. You pin your target in place with a rediculous amount of supressive fire and your individual units take turns maneuvering on the target. Only half the army moves on any given turn. The others stand and shoot. It suits my style, and I win with it because I'm good at prioritizing targets.

Other people are not good at prioritizing targets and as such, should not use my style.

Take the time, do the math, and figure out what your style is and then refine it. There is no 'Automatic Win' Button.

toddznidz
12-06-2011, 02:41
EDIT: "Marleys"? Really, toddznidz. Who came up with that little gem?

Ygmarl, Marly. Marbo, Rambo. The GW guys have a sense of humor every now and then.

Maybe they did it because the feeders look like "dreads".


so, what are the tournament winning Tyranid lists like then?
Are they cookie cutter style netlists?

What makes them different from netlist IG and Space Wolves that makes them worse?

There is no "Net-list" because nobody has won anything major with Nids.

No Nid list "plays itself" like leaf-blower, razor-spam or DeathWing [Shunt-punch may make it here soon]. You can win the majority of your games without even knowing the rules with these lists. In the hands of an experienced player, they are devastating.

There may not be a "Net-list" for Nids, but IMO there are some basic things you MUST take to be competative with Nids.

You must take one v-thrope brood of two and one hive-guard brood of three. The final elite slot can be filled with another brood of hive guard or 3 zoes, but you should take as much AT as you can with the last two Elite slots because that is all the AT you get... almost.

One T-fex with rupture cannons. Once again, you have to take the AT you have avaiable. I would suggest taking more than one, but the points cost for is already too ridiculously high. But you gotta take one.

At least two broods of at least 10 Stealers with Broodlords. I prefer three broods and put poison on one, but two of ten is a minimum. Stealer units without broodlords are not worth considering.

Other than that, take what fits your play style. Surround the above with a hoarde (Prime, Warriors w\ spitters, gargoyles, gaunts w\ devourers, Tervigons w\ catalyst as troops, etc.) or "Nidzilla" (Daka-tyrant w\ guard or Flyrant with scytals, Trygons w\ adrenals, Mawlocs, Daka-fexes, etc.) . I would suggest going one way or the other, but don't try to "mix" the philosophies.

Swarmlord is a trap. Too pricey for no invuln vs. shooting and no EW vs GKs. Even with t-guard, he, escuse me, SHE is just ML and MM bait. Lash-whips are popular, but worthless against mech. They are a sad consolation prize for losing frag-grenades. Boneswords are over-rated as well since it seems everything in the 40K Universe has EW but Nids these days.

Just keep in mind that NIds are NOT an assault army. They are a "counter-punch" army whoes strength lies in its mid-range firepower. "Go to Ground" is your friend. And hope they don't have flamers...

IMO.

Blink
12-06-2011, 02:57
... I can't tell if this Toddnidz is serious or if he's just giving bad advice on purpose.

toddznidz
12-06-2011, 03:07
... I can't tell if this Toddnidz is serious or if he's just giving bad advice on purpose.

You got a problem with anything in particular?

Blink
12-06-2011, 03:12
This entire section:


You must take one v-thrope brood of two and one hive-guard brood of three. The final elite slot can be filled with another brood of hive guard or 3 zoes, but you should take as much AT as you can with the last two Elite slots because that is all the AT you get... almost.

One T-fex with rupture cannons. Once again, you have to take the AT you have avaiable. I would suggest taking more than one, but the points cost for is already too ridiculously high. But you gotta take one.

At least two broods of at least 10 Stealers with Broodlords. I prefer three broods and put poison on one, but two of ten is a minimum. Stealer units without broodlords are not worth considering.

There are many lists at many point values where you don't want to do any of those things.

Carnage
12-06-2011, 03:25
... I can't tell if this Toddnidz is serious or if he's just giving bad advice on purpose.

It's not entirely poor advice, and as this thread has shown different things work for different people at different levels of play.


You must take one v-thrope brood of two and one hive-guard brood of three. The final elite slot can be filled with another brood of hve guard or 3 zoes, but you should take as much AT as you can with the last two Elite slots because that is all the AT you get... almost.

One T-fex with rupture cannons. Once again, you have to take the AT you have avaiable. I would suggest taking more than one, but the points cost for is already too ridiculously high. But you gotta take one.

At least two broods of at least 10 Stealers with Broodlords. I prefer three broods and put poison on one, but two of ten is a minimum. Stealer units without broodlords are not worth considering.

Other than that, take what fits your play style. Surround the above with a hoarde (Prime, Warriors w\ spitters, gargoyles, gaunts w\ devourers, Tervigons w\ catalyst as troops, etc.) or "Nidzilla" (Daka-tyrant w\ guard or Flyrant with scytals, Trygons w\ adrenals, Mawlocs, Daka-fexes, etc.) . I would suggest going one way or the other, but don't try to "mix" the philosophies.

Swarmlord is a trap. Too pricey for no invuln vs. shooting and no EW vs GKs. Even with t-guard, he, escuse me, SHE is just ML bait. Lash-whips are popular, but worthless against mech. They are a sad consolation prize for losing frag-grenades. Boneswords are over-rated as well since it seems everything in the 40K Universe has EW but Nids these days.


Venomthropes are pointless IMO. A termagant screen created and supplemented by a Tervigon will screen pretty much everything but the Tervigon and Trygon. A large amount of stuff doesn't really need a cover save (termagants, base hormagaunts, gargoyles, etc) or have other deployment methods that will make venomthropes pointless anyways. (Stealers, podd'ed units, deepstriking stuff). Venomthrope's other nice bonus of dangerous terrain/defensive grenades are marginal at best and IMO don't warrant the loss of an elite's slot.

Zoanthropes are screwed if your opponent has psychic defense. Even if they don't, they aren't amazing. Only take em if you are terrified of AV14 AND need more synapse.

Hive Guard are pro, I use 2 broods of 2 at 1500, going to 3 man at 1750+.

Third elite slot is zoans, more HG or for me, Ymgarl stealers. I find them invaluable for back field disruption.

T-fexes are....stunningly poor IMO. 265 points for 2 shots would be awful if they had BS5...they have BS3. You can take so many more useful things for the points it's staggering.

I semi-agree on the genestealer point. I think they are a solid troop choice. 2 ways to run em IMO. Geared with toxin-sacs and a broodlord, or budget with nothing and as many bodies as you can cram in. The stealer swarm has been cropping up in tournys recently and doing fairly well.

Swarmlord I'm still undecided on. His lack of 2+ save makes him and his unit a missile magnet, but he adds quite a bit to a tyranid army and is a scary HtH unit in his own right.

toddznidz
12-06-2011, 03:28
This entire section:



There are many lists at many point values where you don't want to do any of those things.

I have played Nids since I got in to 40K pre-5th. I have tried just about every varient you can imagine from escalation leagues to Apoc. I have won tournaments, and I have received whipping boy at tournaments. I don't keep track of my "record" because to do so in a game so dependent on dice and matchup is meaningless. I have tabled leaf-blower, and I have lost to Orc hordes (and vice-versa). I have tried reserve denial, Deathleaper and Mawloc spam, hordes, "Nidzilla", etc.

The only units consistent, durable, and lethal enough to survive on the "big boy, all comer" stage are the three elites mentioned and the Stealers. T-fex is a crap choice, but a 2XS10 shots with 2+ is a must against AV13+ and StormRavens even at BS3 and a ridiculous points cost.

IMO means "In My Opinion", by the way.

xerxeshavelock
12-06-2011, 03:30
You got a problem with anything in particular?

To be fair "hope they don't have flamers" isn't very constructive advice.

I personally rate naked stealer broods - they are enough to change your opponents deployment which is often half the point of their inclusion.

Ulrig
12-06-2011, 03:33
In response to the people saying "it takes finesse" and its "not a click and win army".

Its like you finally found what little works for you in the book and are quick to point it out, while ignoring most of it that doesn't work.

xerxeshavelock
12-06-2011, 03:36
In response to the people saying "it takes finesse" and its "not a click and win army".

Its like you finally found what little works for you in the book and are quick to point it out, while ignoring most of it that doesn't work.

Which is a positive approach to a situation no-one can effect and should be applauded

Ulrig
12-06-2011, 03:39
Yeah, its "positive" to tell the people that say its a horrible codex...
"You don't have the finesse or the skill to win this uber army"

xerxeshavelock
12-06-2011, 03:42
Its like you finally found what little works for you in the book and are quick to point it out, while ignoring most of it that doesn't work.

I meant this bit..., was agreeing with your statement.

Ulrig
12-06-2011, 03:47
I meant this bit..., was agreeing with your statement.

My bad, I blame beer.

toddznidz
12-06-2011, 03:49
Venomthropes are pointless IMO. A termagant screen created and supplemented by a Tervigon will screen pretty much everything but the Tervigon and Trygon. A large amount of stuff doesn't really need a cover save (termagants, base hormagaunts, gargoyles, etc) or have other deployment methods that will make venomthropes pointless anyways. (Stealers, podd'ed units, deepstriking stuff). Venomthrope's other nice bonus of dangerous terrain/defensive grenades are marginal at best and IMO don't warrant the loss of an elite's slot.

Zoanthropes are screwed if your opponent has psychic defense. Even if they don't, they aren't amazing. Only take em if you are terrified of AV14 AND need more synapse.

Hive Guard are pro, I use 2 broods of 2 at 1500, going to 3 man at 1750+.

Third elite slot is zoans, more HG or for me, Ymgarl stealers. I find them invaluable for back field disruption.

T-fexes are....stunningly poor IMO. 265 points for 2 shots would be awful if they had BS5...they have BS3. You can take so many more useful things for the points it's staggering.

The value of the v-thropes is not just the cover save (especially for uncovered troops and MCs), but more importantly it IS the "dangerous" test for charging units, and defensive grenades. EVERYTHING is faster than Nids these days, and with no frag-grenades you have to be as prepared as possible to "take it on the chin" and counter punch. V-thropes are the only thing that will get you past turn three against some lists.

I hear you on the Zoes. If I had the models, I would take three more hive guard. But zoes work. Your opponent has to worry about them, and a good streak of 3+ rolling can frustrate your opponent's shooting for a good long while. Don't under value the marine killing blast they can chuck as well. May as well extend SitW as best you can.

I also hear you on the T-fex. I have tried and tried to get along without it, but if you put it next to your v-thropes (or even "hide" the v-thropes behind it), it should live long enough to get one pen on a Raider or StormRaven. That almost pays for itself right there, but from a tactical standpoint I would much rather see those Paladins or Blood-talons walking than charging out of a Raven. It is the difference betwee winning and losing, so it is worth the points. T-fex can also soak a lot of firepower.

If you go with the reserve units (marlys, pods, outflanking), your fate is unfortunately tied to the initiative roll, and your reserve rolls. If everything works they way you want, you can roll many a good list. If things don't work out so well... You MUST have consistency to play with the "all-comers".


To be fair "hope they don't have flamers" isn't very constructive advice.

I personally rate naked stealer broods - they are enough to change your opponents deployment which is often half the point of their inclusion.

The "flamer" remark was an apparently bad attempt at humor. No Star Wars Episode IV fans in the house? "Lock the door, and hope they don't have blasters". Anyone? Anyone....

Take the naked stealers if you like, but no armor + rapid fire = wasted points. I don't know how many games I have bee able to pull out with two, twice wounded BroodLords running around taking objectives. Nothing like staring a battlewagon full of Burna-boyz in the face, and coming away with an unharmed BroodLord to go give 'em what for. You get the cost in Stealers back allocating wounds.

"Taking advantage" of Wound Allocation is what some call "Finnesse".

Blink
12-06-2011, 04:03
I have played Nids since I got in to 40K pre-5th. I have tried just about every varient you can imagine from escalation leagues to Apoc. I have won tournaments, and I have received whipping boy at tournaments. I don't keep track of my "record" because to do so in a game so dependent on dice and matchup is meaningless. I have tabled leaf-blower, and I have lost to Orc hordes (and vice-versa). I have tried reserve denial, Deathleaper and Mawloc spam, hordes, "Nidzilla", etc.

This is something I see Tyranid players do a lot... They constantly "brag" about their placements in tournaments or make claims to their experience with the army as a response to something which really didn't beget it. Bestaltan, a Nid player I respect, does this a lot too. I bolded a part that I thought was kind of hilarious in that post... Full of anecdotes and thing a little "Not that I keep track or anything" thrown in there.


The only units consistent, durable, and lethal enough to survive on the "big boy, all comer" stage are the three elites mentioned and the Stealers. T-fex is a crap choice, but a 2XS10 shots with 2+ is a must against AV13+ and StormRavens even at BS3 and a ridiculous points cost.

False. Not only are the Deathleaper, Doom of Malantai, and Ymgarls genestealers viable options for that last slot and there are many lists where you don't need nor WANT Venomthropes. Especially at lower point values you will likely want to split up Hive Guard into 2 slots instead of taking 3 in one so that way you can split your shots. 10 genestealers is above the sweet spot in many lists and a healthy chunk of those genestealers will be wasted in one way or another. The Tyrannofex can be slightly useful at higher point values, but by no means do you need one of them for that S10 shot.

Oh and last thing about the Swarmlord; it can definitely be a competitive choice if you use it right.

xerxeshavelock
12-06-2011, 04:11
The Tyrannofex can be slightly useful at higher point values, but by no means do you need one of them for that S10 shot.

Oh and last thing about the Swarmlord; it can definitely be a competitive choice if you use it right.

To be fair you're both advocating something another player might find a little pricy. If it fills a need in your list or playstyle its worth taking (especially if it has a neat model), even if sub-optimal.

To me Deathleaper doesn't look killy enough to use, but maybe my playstyle is more one of overwhelming a unit, whereas someone else might use attrition to weaken an enemy then send him in. Personally I see that as a risk, but some might think it worth taking.

Blink
12-06-2011, 04:17
Sub-optimal means nothing if it's necessary, xerxeshavelock.

For instance, an all reserves list — currently one of the most competitive builds for Tyranid at higher point values, relies on having Hive Commander and Alien Cunning to reliably accomplish what it needs to.

toddznidz
12-06-2011, 04:19
I am not bragging, but responding to someone who accused me of giving bad advice just to give bad advice. I think "record posters" are silly. My response was simply to point out that I am not entirely inexperienced in these matters.

Furthermore, the opinion I advocated was directly solicited.

Regardless of how you do it, if you want to play in the all-comer world, you come with Stealers and firepower.


Sub-optimal means nothing if it's necessary, xerxeshavelock.

For instance, an all reserves list — currently one of the most competitive builds for Tyranid at higher point values, relies on having Hive Commander and Alien Cunning to reliably accomplish what it needs to.

Curiously, those abilities are why I abandoned the reserve list. All a clever opponent with initiative has to do is put his list in reserve and make the Nids go first. The stupid bonuses for reserves only assure everything is on the table to be destroyed when he shows up. Reserve denial can work, but only as long as the dice say so.


Oh and last thing about the Swarmlord; it can definitely be a competitive choice if you use it right.

If you don't take guard with her, it is a fool's play. Taking guard with Swarmlord kills you in Dawn of War scenarios. Once again, Swarmlord works, but is not an "all-comers" play.

xerxeshavelock
12-06-2011, 04:26
Sub-optimal means nothing if it's necessary, xerxeshavelock.


Glad you agree :)

Blink
12-06-2011, 04:35
Curiously, those abilities are why I abandoned the reserve list. All a clever opponent with initiative has to do is put his list in reserve and make the Nids go first. The stupid bonuses for reserves only assure everything is on the table to be destroyed when he shows up. Reserve denial can work, but only as long as the dice say so.

First of all, no; the opponent putting everything in reserves will not necessarily save them. I enjoy when my opponent does that, and everything they have comes in piecemeal. Secondly, "stupid" reserves bonus?


If you don't take guard with her, it is a fool's play. Taking guard with Swarmlord kills you in Dawn of War scenarios. Once again, Swarmlord works, but is not an "all-comers" play.

False. I need Bestaltan in here.

You learn to drop the Tyrant Guard from the Swarmlord pretty quickly and learn that creating higher priority targets in front of the enemy is a better shield to the Swarmlord than a guard ever could be.

toddznidz
12-06-2011, 04:42
First of all, no; the opponent putting everything in reserves will not necessarily save them. I enjoy when my opponent does that, and everything they have comes in piecemeal. Secondly, "stupid" reserves bonus?

Play it more than once. Play it 50 times like I did. The "must" +1 to reserve rolls is as much a bane as a boon. The old "re-roll" it if you choose was much better.


False. I need Bestaltan in here.

I don't mean to be rude, but I REALLY don't agree with much Bestaltan has to say. It does not sound like he has had the honor of playing anyone who REALLY knows how to take apart Nids. You saying "False" does not make it so.


You learn to drop the Tyrant Guard from the Swarmlord pretty quickly and learn that creating higher priority targets in front of the enemy is a better shield to the Swarmlord than a guard ever could be.

If SwarmLord is on the table, WHAT could possibly be a higher priority target?

Blink
12-06-2011, 04:47
Play it more than once. Play it 50 times like I did. The "must" +1 to reserve rolls is as much a bane as a boon. The old "re-roll" it if you choose was much better.

... What would make you think I've only played it once? _


You saying "False" does not make it so. If SwarmLord is on the table, WHAT could possibly be a higher priority target?

Me saying false isn't what makes it so. It BEING false is what makes it so. And what do you mean what could be possibly be a higher priority target?... If you have a Swarmlord 24 inches away, and a Trygon 6" away with genestealers and devourer gaunts on either side of you, are you going to be shooting the Swarmlord?

toddznidz
12-06-2011, 04:51
... What would make you think I've only played it once?

It seems rather obvious.

Take it or leave it. Somebody asked a question, and I gave them a straight answer. Just because you don't agree with me, doens't make it bad advice.

You might try listening or reading instead of contradicting for a change.

The optimal "Swarmlord" play is three guard and a prime for maximum wound allocation and lethality when it gets there. It is still not an "all-comers" play.

Swarmlord with no guard is one round of LF fire away from death.

Blink
12-06-2011, 04:54
It seems rather obvious.

How so? And answer my last question, which would you been shooting at?


You might try listening or reading instead of contradicting for a change.

What do you even mean by that?

Blink
12-06-2011, 04:57
The optimal "Swarmlord" play is three guard and a prime for maximum wound allocation and lethality when it gets there. It is still not an "all-comers" play.

... That is not optimal. That is overkill to make a slow deathstar. The Swarmlord can be used like that, but it isn't very efficient.

toddznidz
12-06-2011, 05:06
If you have a Swarmlord 24 inches away, and a Trygon 6" away with genestealers and devourer gaunts on either side of you, are you going to be shooting the Swarmlord?

A swarmlord 24" away is no threat, and is at least three turns from being one. This is the problem, is it not? Obviously, you kill the Tryogn first, then the Swarmlord (so nearly 500 points wasted, not just the points for SL).

How did you achieve such an amazing deployment of MCs? If you were wating around for the Trygon to DS, that would be at least turn two (depending on reserve rolls), by wich time SL should be dead to one ML barrage. OK, let's throw a razorback TLLC shot in just to make sure.

Assuming you didn't take the v-thropes that you hate...


What do you even mean by that?

"I am not trying to harm you. I am trying to help you". Lord of the Rings fans? Anyone? Anyone?

If you love SwarmLord so much, take him. It doesn't even contradict the adivice I gave which was "take this basic stuff, and whatever else fits you play style". If Swarlord fits, more power to you. If you want to pod up all the stuff I advised taking, more power to you.

If you want to ignore my opinion all together, more power to you.

Don't go making rude assumptions or accusations that anyone's advice is bad or based on ignorance.


.Me saying false isn't what makes it so. It BEING false is what makes it so.

An opinion can neither be true, nor false. Your OPINION can not be an absolute.

Blink
12-06-2011, 05:25
A swarmlord 24" away is no threat, and is at least three turns from being one. This is the problem, is it not?

No, it's not a problem. Swarmlord can be used to camp objectives or as a kiting mechanism and support for other units.


Obviously, you kill the Tryogn first, then the Swarmlord (so nearly 500 points wasted, not just the points for SL).

The important part is bolded. You will be killing the Trygon any anything else that can immediately hurt you. The Swarmlord is a sweeper.


How did you achieve such an amazing deployment of MCs?

By using the all reserves tactics. You don't have the Swarmlord on the board for that by the way. He's not going to be the immediate target for you. And if he is on the board, he'll be out of line of sight behind a building or something where Hive Guard slinking around should terrain permit.


Assuming you didn't take the v-thropes that you hate...

I hate them? Where did you read that? I rarely have a use for them because my lists tend to be too fast to benefit from Venomthropes, but I don't hate them. In fact, I have two very effective 2,500 monstrous creature lists that uses a few of them.

I typically use gargoyles if I need the mobile cover though.


"I am not trying to harm you. I am trying to help you".

Not with that comment; assuming that I didn't read your posts just makes you an ass for assuming. I "contradict" your comments because they are conclusive where they shouldn't be and give slippery advice for what you think SHOULD be staples in all-comers lists.

toddznidz
12-06-2011, 05:29
By the way, for the record.

The Nid Codex is terrible.

Blink
12-06-2011, 05:34
Stop editing your post and just say all you want to at once.


An opinion can neither be true, nor false. Your OPINION can not be an absolute.

You said the Swarmlord cannot work in an All-comers list. It empirically can. It's not an opinion. It can and DOES work.

toddznidz
12-06-2011, 05:35
No, it's not a problem. Swarmlord can be used to camp objectives or as a kiting mechanism and support for other units.

Nearly 300 to contest one objective. Smart Play.


The important part is bolded. You will be killing the Trygon any anything else that can immediately hurt you. The Swarmlord is a sweeper.

So you are saying I can kill it when I get around to it. Even better.


By using the all reserves tactics. You don't have the Swarmlord on the board for that by the way. He's not going to be the immediate target for you. And if he is on the board, he'll be out of line of sight behind a building or something where Hive Guard slinking around should terrain permit.

You are coming in piecemeal. Excellent.

So you can really call someone an ass in this forum?

Blink
12-06-2011, 05:46
Nearly 300 to contest one objective. Smart Play.

No. Nearly 300 to kill anything that comes close to that objective your troops are capturing, to give the reserves bonus to make the all-reserves list work, to give a larger synapse range to ensure Hive Guard and outflanking devourer gaunts and/or gargoyles have range to move around, and to bestow benefits like preferred enemy on units that can benefit from it. You're thinking too head-on. Even if it never sees combat, it's well worth its cost.


You are coming in piecemeal. Excellent.

5/6 units arriving from reserves is not piecemeal.

toddznidz
12-06-2011, 05:53
No. Nearly 300 to kill anything that comes close to that objective your troops are capturing, to give the reserves bonus to make the all-reserves list work, to give a larger synapse range to ensure Hive Guard and outflanking devourer gaunts and/or gargoyles have range to move around, and to bestow benefits like preferred enemy on units that can benefit from it. You're thinking too head-on. Even if it never sees combat, it's well worth its cost.

Spend you points to not take an objective, and not kill a thing. Why do I need to bother. As easy to avoid as assault terminators without a transport. I'll just shoot it when I get around to it.


5/6 units arriving from reserves is not piecemeal.

Depends on how many you had to start. I thought you were leaving that +1 (+2?) off board where it doesn't work anyway. If you are planting them over 18" apart, that's piecemeal. You seem to rely a lot on good reserve rolls... which are a bane if you are forced to go first.


You said the Swarmlord cannot work in an All-comers list. It empirically can. It's not an opinion. It can and DOES work.

SL OK. Reserve denial is a loser.

Draconis
12-06-2011, 05:53
Completely hiding something like the SL from turn one firing will be almost completely impossible. You'll get every guns attention from that point on. And if your hiding, then your not killing. And moving 6 plus d6 a turn means hes not an immediate threat for awhile.

And the Hive Tyrants +1 reserves does in fact work with it off the board. Only the Lictors does not.

Blink
12-06-2011, 05:59
Depends on how many you had to start. I thought you were leaving that +1 (+2?) off board where it doesn't work anyway. If you are planting them over 18" apart, that's piecemeal. You seem to rely a lot on good reserve rolls... which are a bane if you are forced to go first.

Swarmlord works when it's off the board. EVERYTHING is in reserves unless you can set up otherwise.


Completely hiding something like the SL from turn one firing will be almost completely impossible.

Depending on the terrain, it's not as hard as you think.

toddznidz
12-06-2011, 06:30
And the Hive Tyrants +1 reserves does in fact work with it off the board. Only the Lictors does not.

Sorry, but that is not so. It has been ruled at several tournaments, and may have been covered in the FAQ.

I am almost certain that the bonus does not apply when the SL\HT is off board.

Check it with the rules forum guys. I dont' think you will like the response.

MidnightKid333
12-06-2011, 06:36
bro, tyranids are awesome!

the key to an awesome nidz list is simply genestealer spam, outflanking with toxin sacs, then fill the elites slot with ymgarl genestealers, bring along a swarmlord with 2 tyrant guard holding lash whips and fill up the heavy support section with trygon adrenal glands to kill heavy AVs.

thats the ideal list for me, but some people use tervigons, hive guard and prime trygons.

The tyranids still have alot of choices with their army setup, and are still hugely flexible with approaching the fight in different ways.

Seriously though, ignore the crappy units. I say that some of the useless units in the codex are there for kicks, like the harpy. its weak and knunky on the table, but my conversion of it looks amazing, and has dropped the jaw of many of my friends when they saw it.

same goes for the parasite of mortrex, but thats still a decent model to use on the table imo. some others may disagree with me.

tyrannofex: sure, its overpriced but giving it cluster spines and dessicator larvae combined with acid spray is alot of template weapons. The tyrannofex is the perfect poison against MSUs and if i ever go against a weak army defensive stats-wise, like orks or imperial guard, the tyranno will be the ultimate janitor.

mostly everything the first guy reviewed was crappy. stay away from some of those. although theres a few things i wouldnt agree with.

the only true failures that dont deserve to be in the codex are:
pyrovores
harpies
rippers
sky-slashers
lictors
old one eye

i think i got them all

i wouldve said carnifex, but with 2 TL brainleech devourer, they are actually decent on the table, especially when grouped up with a tyranid prime w a bonesword lash whip to take hits and reduce initiative

Blink
12-06-2011, 06:43
It does work when it's not on the table, Toddz as set by other precedents like the Astropath.

NerZuhl
12-06-2011, 07:17
Sorry, but that is not so. It has been ruled at several tournaments, and may have been covered in the FAQ.

I am almost certain that the bonus does not apply when the SL\HT is off board.

Check it with the rules forum guys. I dont' think you will like the response.

Tournament rulings are NOT useful guidelines and only apply to that particular venue.

Don't comment on a rule if you haven't checked the relevant sources. The FAQ does indeed not speak regarding reserve bonus. Mainly because there is no need to.

I believe he will like the response, because you are wrong. I am not going to quote the rule because I don't believe it is allowed. The conditions required to receive the bonus is....

Is the Hive Tyrant/Swarmlord alive?
Answer is yes. Units in reserves are not considered casualties until the end of the game.

The conditions are met as per the rule on page 34 of the Tyranid Codex and therefore grant the bonus.

If you wish to look for precedents then look at Eldar and IG reserve manipulation abilities.

Draconis
12-06-2011, 07:22
Its the same rulling if you have a unit in a transport. Their bonuses still count but they are off the board.

toddznidz
12-06-2011, 14:03
It does work when it's not on the table, Toddz as set by other precedents like the Astropath.

So it does. INAT changed their ruling from last year to this. Interesting.

It is still a bane when forced to go first. Even more so now that you start everything in reserves.

All you SL lovers should check and see what Mindstrike missiles do.

Ravenous
12-06-2011, 15:00
Mindstrikes are silly against nids, with no ranged invulnerable save its basically like putting 3-4 wounds on any Hive Tyrant.

Threeshades
12-06-2011, 15:26
[...]

the key to an awesome nidz list is simply genestealer spam, outflanking with toxin sacs, then fill the elites slot with ymgarl genestealers, bring along a swarmlord with 2 tyrant guard holding lash whips and fill up the heavy support section with trygon adrenal glands to kill heavy AVs.

thats the ideal list for me, but some people use tervigons, hive guard and prime trygons.

The tyranids still have alot of choices with their army setup, and are still hugely flexible with approaching the fight in different ways.

Seriously though, ignore the crappy units. I say that some of the useless units in the codex are there for kicks, like the harpy. its weak and knunky on the table, but my conversion of it looks amazing, and has dropped the jaw of many of my friends when they saw it.

same goes for the parasite of mortrex, but thats still a decent model to use on the table imo. some others may disagree with me.

tyrannofex: sure, its overpriced but giving it cluster spines and dessicator larvae combined with acid spray is alot of template weapons. The tyrannofex is the perfect poison against MSUs and if i ever go against a weak army defensive stats-wise, like orks or imperial guard, the tyranno will be the ultimate janitor.

mostly everything the first guy reviewed was crappy. stay away from some of those. although theres a few things i wouldnt agree with.

the only true failures that dont deserve to be in the codex are:
pyrovores
harpies
rippers
sky-slashers
lictors
old one eye

i think i got them all

i wouldve said carnifex, but with 2 TL brainleech devourer, they are actually decent on the table, especially when grouped up with a tyranid prime w a bonesword lash whip to take hits and reduce initiative

Thanks for outlining why the codex sucks so hard. :rolleyes: You saved me a lot of work.

OH and by the way three templates with a maximum of S6 AP4 and 2+ poison AP - are ridiculously little considering the price of 250 points and the speed the Fex goes at as well as the limited range.

toddznidz
12-06-2011, 17:09
Mindstrikes are silly against nids, with no ranged invulnerable save its basically like putting 3-4 wounds on any Hive Tyrant.

and that is BEFORE rolling to wound.

Blink
12-06-2011, 17:48
Yep, mindstrike missiles make the grey knight storm raven a very high priority target for nids who run with hive tyrants.

itcamefromthedeep
12-06-2011, 18:09
I may bitz-up some Venomthropes to use later. I've now heard enough people swear by them that I'll give them a try.

Zoanthropes have served me nicely as synapse coverage for Gaunts, Hive Guard and Biovores while my Warriors and Tyrant are off doing more important things. They tend to actually kill vehicles with more regularity than Hive Guard, particularly vehicles with an armor value of 12 or 13 where Hive Guard often struggle to penetrate. When a Zoanthrope hits, the vehicle tends to feel it. I have yet to play against Grey Knights.

Still haven't tried the Tyrannofex. I won't try either that or a Tervigon until the models come out because I suspect that they will end up being about as big as a Defiler or Soul Grinder (much larger than the proxies I see). I've seen enough players mess up the base size on things like Hell Pit Abominations that I think I'll avoid having to tear the bases off of my models later and just wait.


Take the naked stealers if you like, but no armor + rapid fire = wasted points. I don't know how many games I have bee able to pull out with two, twice wounded BroodLords running around taking objectives. Nothing like staring a battlewagon full of Burna-boyz in the face, and coming away with an unharmed BroodLord to go give 'em what for. You get the cost in Stealers back allocating wounds.I've played with a Broodlord in 5 games now. I was glad to have the Broodlord in 2 of those, and the influence was marginal. I think that it's one of the few fairly-priced upgrades in the book. In some games I'll bring one, and some I will not.

They don't do enough damage to justify their price. The durability is the only thing that I see in them.

---

Perhaps I should look for a different environment to play in once in a while. I just don't lose enough to feel the pressure many of you guys seem to. I have to force myself to experiment in order to see if there's anything better for me than what I'm doing.

toddznidz
12-06-2011, 18:47
Blink, you seem to think I am picking on your list. I am not. It is a fine, solid list and will do well. I have just found it to be limited.

Let me 'splain.

When the new Dex first came out, I ran a varient of what you are running. Instead of SL, I prefered a Flyrant with Hive Commander if only because I already had the model. I was ALL OVER the Marlies. The ability to get the extra pip of armor when needed, and the fact they did what LIctors should had me very excited to try them.

But INAT ruled against the +1 working off board, and all the tournaments followed suit. In addition, I faced a very uphill climb every time a mech list forced me to go first or I landed on a board with little or no area terrain. Mawlocs were very difficult (and controversial at the time), and dangerou to use near the board edges. It did not take long for good players to figure out how to deal with the Marlies.

If the rumors are true about the limited Marly models coming out, I will be first in line at my local to pick them up. But they can't get you over the hump. The Elite slot just has far more important rolls to fill.

I have adjusted the list over time wtih varying degrees of success. Pods wind up being a huge liability in KP missions, and can leave your zoes out till turn five if you are unlucky. The eventual FAQ nerfed them out of my list (no ICs, can't drop them empty).

The BA dex made t-fex a must. Blood-talons on an AV13 or furiously charging, fleet dreads assaulting out of a Raven is not fun. Then came the force weapon guys. Blood-strike and Mind-strike missiles just add to the fun.

If a Nid player can't knock the Ravens down early and at range, he faces a steep uphill climb. T-fex with RC is the only thing in the dex that can do it.

DE, BA, GK... all faster and more lethal than Nids. They are coming to you. V-thropes are not the perfect solution either, but they at least give you a chance.

I am just trying to help. If you don't like it, whatever.

Sexiest_hero
12-06-2011, 21:15
Tyranids are awesome I've only lost 2 games with them, one at the final round of last years ard boys. Tyranids arnt bad, just Tyranid players. You have to be better than average, to play them, Much like DE. If not go play SW where you can make tons of theployment and movement errors and still club bad playes. A good Tyranid army comes at you from every angle, every turn. When you get 60 inflitrating genestealers with FnP and another 30 that can assau;t the turn they become unhidden. People will call BS on you too. And when some silly person tries to fill up terrain to make your Y'mgarl Genestealers die, Introduce them to your friend Mr Biovore, and they stranglethorn gang.

Threeshades
12-06-2011, 21:22
Tyranids are awesome I've only lost 2 games with them, one at the final round of last years ard boys. Tyranids arnt bad, just Tyranid players. You have to be better than average, to play them, Much like DE. If not go play SW where you can make tons of theployment and movement errors and still club bad playes. A good Tyranid army comes at you from every angle, every turn. When you get 60 inflitrating genestealers with FnP and another 30 that can assau;t the turn they become unhidden. People will call BS on you too. And when some silly person tries to fill up terrain to make your Y'mgarl Genestealers die, Introduce them to your friend Mr Biovore, and they stranglethorn gang.

:o

:wtf:

:mad:

:shifty:

:(

Alright I give up... you're right, I should sell my sould and only look at tyranids purely from the power gaming perspective... Sure.

Draconis
12-06-2011, 21:43
So your list is 20x3 genestealers, 10x3 Ymgarls, 10x Terms, and 3x Terv with catalyst. Thats only 2100 points bare. Yeah, exciting....

Sexiest_hero
12-06-2011, 21:54
That's just the base you are free to add in what you need to get to 2.5k or drop a tervia and Gene-horde to get lower points. I gave a broad outline of a list because this isn't the army list section.

itcamefromthedeep
12-06-2011, 22:01
That's just the base you are free to add in what you need to get to 2.5k or drop a tervia and Gene-horde to get lower points. I gave a broad outline of a list because this isn't the army list section.
I'm... glad that you've met with success with your setup there Sexiest_hero. I really am happy for you.

Perhaps I should try out a Genestealer horde one of these days.

Sexiest_hero
12-06-2011, 23:24
If you are gonna run Gene horde. Always take toxin sac, I splurge on a broodlord with Implant attack. Teamed with a deathleaper You can turn a uber killer IC into a 200 point loser who can't attack. Also check out the Nid list that did so well at Adepticon.

Anggul
13-06-2011, 11:12
The monstrous creatures are all over-priced by at least 20pts, and many units just don't do what they're meant to, and even have specifically described things which don't actually do anything rules-wise.

Fixer
13-06-2011, 14:40
Too many of the options are just terrible as well.

I had my Warriors with Sycthing Talons, rending claws and leaping. Now gone.
Other unit or warriors with deathspitters and scything talons? Just lacklustre.
Carnifex with Venom cannon or a barbed strangler? Nope. Brain leeches are the best you can get, and even then the model is overpriced.

My flying hive tyrant with twin scything talons and warp field? Now insanely expensive, and warp field is gone. Even with a gargoyle cover save you're looking at being lucky to survive a single turn of shooting from all those scatterlasers, long fangs or general long range shooty things.

Spinefists. 1 point more for an effective sidegrade against infantry and loses you your chance to glance vehicles.

The entire codex is stupid. Almost everything from a respectable 4th ed list (fluffy, power-gamer or otherwise) has ended up on the junk pile. Most of the half decent things are brand new models, and the rest don't even have models released for them yet.

N.I.B.
13-06-2011, 20:44
A few here got the hang of it. Tyranids can win in competetive environments against good players with good armies who rarely play against Tyranids. Against good players with good armies, who knows the Tyranid codex, you have an uphill struggle. The often mentioned synergies aren't as much synergies as they are dependencies. Meaning without the "synergy", the unit is poo. The dependencies are exploitable by players who has done their homework. What it boils down to is that the Nid tournament player best shot is with the units that can deliver outside synapse and Tervigon buff range.

Tyranids best tournament weapon is the rarity of the army.

As for reserve armies, random is bad in tournaments. Reliability is king. I don't see investing in both a Tyrant and a Swarmlord as viable, meaning you're down to a 3+, and since the FAQ killed dropping empty spores, you're losing the kill point missions. It's very fun when it works though.

I would very much like to see Bestaltan's reserve army - my own version depends on stacking dakka the turn I arrive, with a bit of Ymgarl disruption, but it's struggling against common things like TH/SS Terminators.

Blink
13-06-2011, 21:51
Taking a Tyrant and Swarmlord means you're down to a 2+ for reserve rolls, N.I.B., not 3+.

You're not losing Kill Points missions all that much because in the non-linear deployment fashion, you typically tie up enemy units and present much higher immediate threats than the spore pods.

The problem comes from the fact that the FOC doesn't allow ENOUGH of the alternative deployment units in the Elite slot to get in without sacrificing some much needed anti-tank... And when outflankers are all that remains, many armies (though not all of them) can afford to focus on one section at a time and kite their way to a win. It's the single strategic flaw with the reserves list that will cost the Tyranid player games... Not taking the Swarmlord, not avoiding Venomthropes, not tooling the list out of fear of mindstrike missiles... Tactical mobility on the opponent's part will lead them to victory.

Threeshades
13-06-2011, 23:11
I started calling it Cruddex Tyranids yesterday, because I felt that it was more appropriate to call it that, than Codex Tyranids.

Draconis
14-06-2011, 00:37
I still think his dog got stepped on by a carnifex.. :shifty:

N.I.B.
14-06-2011, 06:51
Taking a Tyrant and Swarmlord means you're down to a 2+ for reserve rolls, N.I.B., not 3+.
Maybe I was unclear - as I don't see BOTH Tyrant and Swarmlord as viable, it means that imo you should only take one, which means you're down to 3+. That extra +1 from the Swarmlord is not worth it, in regards to what the points could have bought you instead. You need to inflict enough damage when you drop, you can't afford to have 280 points that your opponent can ignore, footslogging from your table edge.
The infamous FAQ really killed the null deployment Nids. I was loving me some two Dakkarants with stacking Hive Commander before that.


You're not losing Kill Points missions all that much because in the non-linear deployment fashion, you typically tie up enemy units and present much higher immediate threats than the spore pods.
Vehicles can't be tied up in combat, and that's what you usually face in a competetive list. You can present higher immediate threats of course. The spores are usually left to the last two turns, when they are lolpicked off if needed to secure a Kill Point win.


The problem comes from the fact that the FOC doesn't allow ENOUGH of the alternative deployment units in the Elite slot to get in without sacrificing some much needed anti-tank... And when outflankers are all that remains, many armies (though not all of them) can afford to focus on one section at a time and kite their way to a win. It's the single strategic flaw with the reserves list that will cost the Tyranid player games... Not taking the Swarmlord, not avoiding Venomthropes, not tooling the list out of fear of mindstrike missiles... Tactical mobility on the opponent's part will lead them to victory.
I'd like to rephrase that - vehicles on the opponent's part will lead them to victory. That's the problem with 5th edition (and Nids). Jump into a transport, and you're immune to 40K.
I've found cc doesn't really work for null deployment Nid armies - you come in, stand around looking stupid while your enemy run off and lit you up.
Or, you come in with Stealers and Ymgarls, crack a transport (in best cases, because it moved 12" the turn before and you're praying for 6's to hit it) and get lit up by the unit that spills out.
Therefore I go with dakka, as much as I can cram in while still having a few troop units. Shooting can do something when it shows up, and it's harder to kite.

Yaro
14-06-2011, 08:33
The Swarmlord works in a reserve list in 2500 points. Ask any Daemon player if they would sacrifice 10% of their points for a model that gives insurance for most-all of their army coming in on turn 2, the answer will be yes.

On top of this, and even if it doesn't ever charge into combat, you've got:

1) a model that can tank 5 lascannon wounds 2)a unit that can provide fearlessness within 18 inches and 3)can provide major buffs within 18 inches, and 4)psychic support within 12 inches. 5) A body guard for your hiding hive guard (the 1 unit you can deploy normally in a reserve list). 2k or lower? I agree that it's best to stick with the hive tyrant.

Vehicles don't get tied up in combat but they do die to outflanking genestealers, hive guard, and a deepstriking Tyrant with 2 TL devourers. The key with the reserve list is to bring units that can accomplish something the turn they come into play, so there really should be no standing around looking stupid.

Blink
14-06-2011, 08:34
Maybe I was unclear - as I don't see BOTH Tyrant and Swarmlord as viable, it means that imo you should only take one, which means you're down to 3+. That extra +1 from the Swarmlord is not worth it, in regards to what the points could have bought you instead. You need to inflict enough damage when you drop, you can't afford to have 280 points that your opponent can ignore, footslogging from your table edge.
The infamous FAQ really killed the null deployment Nids. I was loving me some two Dakkarants with stacking Hive Commander before that.

I don't know what you're talking about. Taking a Swarmlord is one of the MOST viable ways to run the list, on the brink of being necessary with a Hive Commander Flyrant.

Having the Swarmlord to man the homefront comes in handy quite often; and even if he doesn't, you tend to find his supplemental benefits more than useful anyway.

EDIT for the above: I should note that I'm talking about 2,500 point lists where All Reserves really shines.


Vehicles can't be tied up in combat, and that's what you usually face in a competetive list. You can present higher immediate threats of course. The spores are usually left to the last two turns, when they are lolpicked off if needed to secure a Kill Point win.

Typically if you can at least keep a vehicle shaken, you're in business. Mawlocs help with this. You can also find great uses for the Spore Pods as well. I sometimes use mine to give my Trygons or Mawlocs a little cover save the turn they come up haha.


I'd like to rephrase that - vehicles on the opponent's part will lead them to victory. That's the problem with 5th edition (and Nids). Jump into a transport, and you're immune to 40K.
I've found cc doesn't really work for null deployment Nid armies - you come in, stand around looking stupid while your enemy run off and lit you up.
Or, you come in with Stealers and Ymgarls, crack a transport (in best cases, because it moved 12" the turn before and you're praying for 6's to hit it) and get lit up by the unit that spills out.
Therefore I go with dakka, as much as I can cram in while still having a few troop units. Shooting can do something when it shows up, and it's harder to kite.

This is where I completely agree with you and where I have diverged from what other players like Bestaltan has done. I have loaded my all reserves list with more shooting. I now take 2 harpies in mine along with 40 Devourer gaunts. I still do 3 Broodlord squads and Mawlocs, but I've found the shooting allows me to diminish the threat the enemy poses well more than just running in from the sides. I find the assault heavy all reserves lists FAR too easy to mitigate for any crafty player who knows how Tyranid work... I need stuff that can at least shake or even pop vehicles at a distance.

Bonzai
14-06-2011, 14:28
Maybe I was unclear - as I don't see BOTH Tyrant and Swarmlord as viable, it means that imo you should only take one, which means you're down to 3+. That extra +1 from the Swarmlord is not worth it, in regards to what the points could have bought you instead.

I don't see the reserve lists being viable without both. Wether footslogging or reserving, the primary principle of Nids remain pretty much the same. You need to be able to bring the majority of your forces to bare on the opponent at once. Otherwise it is just two easy for them to pick off isolated targets. You need to overwhelm them, all at once. For that you will need a Swarm Lord with a tyrant guard, and a winged Tyrant. The Swarmlord might not make it to combat, but all it has to do is survive to till turn 2 and it will have done it's job.

Frankly, if Lictors could automatically come in from reserve on turn 1, I think it would fix a lot of issues. That, and Deep Striking Trygons.

Transgressor
14-06-2011, 16:07
So your list is 20x3 genestealers, 10x3 Ymgarls, 10x Terms, and 3x Terv with catalyst. Thats only 2100 points bare. Yeah, exciting....

I plan to try something similar to this in a tournament Saturday. My biggest concern is catching up to DE raiders (or BA transports) and losing too many stealers from exploding Rhinos/Razorbacks. I've had pretty horrible luck with transports blowing up in my face in the past. Nothing worse than surrounding a transport to attempt to auto-kill the passengers, only to have it blow up, kill half your guys, and then get gunned down by the guys now standing in the crater for cover :cries:

Bestaltan
14-06-2011, 17:04
Tyranids best tournament weapon is the rarity of the army.


And after this weekend, the rarity just increased by one. :rolleyes: I had such a miserable time at a tournament, my Tyranids are now officially retired until things are fixed.

Now, it's not what you think.......On the table I was doing fine. Was even competing for #1 going into the final round. It is the attitude that everyone has towards Tyranids that is causing me to quit them. In the past year, I have had on two separate occasions an opponent APOLOGIZE for what their list is about to do to me (won both games, by the way......and got tanked in sportsmanship). I have been absolutely tanked in sportsmanship the past year as well. Reason? My opponents got beat by Tyranids. I've also noticed that my sportsmanship score after I beat my opponent is inversely proportional to the competitive level of their army. For example, I have yet to score a high sportsmanship score from a Space Wolf player. :rolleyes:

I decided to be creative with my swarmlord and tervigon models. Result in tournaments? Nothing but complaints about the models. The models are too small. Too big. Can't see them. Can see them. Aren't what they should be. Swarmlord model should be a tervigon. Tervigon model should be a swarmlord.

I've had a good run, but it's time to head on back to Orks.

althathir
14-06-2011, 17:14
Sorry to hear that Bestaltan, though in all fairness I think your problem is more with the WAAC crowd who don't want to admit they got outplayed.

This winter I was deciding between space wolves and nids because I wanted a CC army that plays different from my eldar, I ended up going with wolves because they're a lot easier to transport and I love how much you can customize wolf lords and wolfguard. Now I'm excited with how well grey knights are doing cause I think the WAAC crowd might jump ship, failing that i'm hoping for an OTT chaos book so my wolves don't have quite as bad as reputation.

Draconis
14-06-2011, 17:15
And thats what happens when you leave it in the hands of people. They expect you to lose so that when you win, they complain your army is cheese or built way to competitively.

Bestaltan
14-06-2011, 17:24
Sorry to hear that Bestaltan, though in all fairness I think your problem is more with the WAAC crowd who don't want to admit they got outplayed.


Which I think is indicative of 5th edition as a whole. Privateer Press is looking better and better right now. ;)

Megad00mer
14-06-2011, 18:14
Which I think is indicative of 5th edition as a whole. Privateer Press is looking better and better right now. ;)

I started Warmachine and Hordes last year and I haven't had this much fun wargaming in years.

petpetpetpet
14-06-2011, 18:39
Tyranids rely on their monsters to win the game as it is the backbone of the Tyranid army. But the monsters are quite easy to kill due to having to be 50% in cover and no invulnerable saves. It's difficult but manageable. I used to run a 3 Trygon+reserve tyrant. They would either drop down and eat everything up or drop down and get picked off. It's a difficult one really.


The lists I've seen balanced Nid lists the gaunts die too quickly. Warriors aren't immune to instant death so die quickly. Zoanthropes are quite easy to pick off. They're an alright army, just not the best out there.

From what I've read effective Tyranid lists rely on multipule Tervigons, Swarmlord with bodyguard, Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, Tyrannofexes. Heavy shooty Nids with lots of free spam troops.



As I say in 1500 Points I ran: Reserve Tyrant, 3 Trygons, Zoanthropes, Hive Guard, Doom, 2 Tervigons.
Now generally I did okay.

vs Orks id I could halter the transports I could pick them off and eat them up. If their transports got in, it was a bucketload of powerklaw attacks.
vs Eldar, hardest one. Seer council armies are difficult but shadow in the warp helped, I just used to plant my monster on their objectives, they found it hard to shift them and I sat on mine.
vs Chaos, easiest fight. Trygons just eat everything Chaos has, they really couldn't handle them.
vs Marines, only hard thing about these is a good marine player, being canny with their tanks, even then when I got in they died quite quickly.
vs IGuard, my bane, they backup with so much firepower shoot me to ribbons. I really couldn't handle an Imperial Guard army.
vs Daemons, nice matchup very 50:50, I lost a game vs a good Daemon Player which costed me 2nd place at a main tournament. It's very evenly matched and very close, it all boils down to the dice in my experience.
vs Space Wolves, Jaws could be a pain, but that's it. They can shoot you alot, but again when you get in, they usually died quite quickly.
vs Dark Eldar, win big lose big Matchup. Either their guns would fail and i'd eat them up or their guns wouldn't fail and i'd be blasted out of sight.

Anyway there is hard matchups, but also easy matchups, like any tactical game it's a bit of both.
Having said that I stopped the game just over a year ago now, I can't imagine it has become too different. There has been since then what Blood Angels, Dark Eldar and Greyknights codices which I haven't faced.

But really I don't think Tyranids are as bad as people make out, i reckon based on what i've read in this thread people aren't optimising their army lists.
Thanks,

Petx4

Threeshades
14-06-2011, 19:24
Tyranids rely on their monsters to win the game as it is the backbone of the Tyranid army. But the monsters are quite easy to kill due to having to be 50% in cover and no invulnerable saves. It's difficult but manageable. I used to run a 3 Trygon+reserve tyrant. They would either drop down and eat everything up or drop down and get picked off. It's a difficult one really.


The lists I've seen balanced Nid lists the gaunts die too quickly. Warriors aren't immune to instant death so die quickly. Zoanthropes are quite easy to pick off. They're an alright army, just not the best out there.

From what I've read effective Tyranid lists rely on multipule Tervigons, Swarmlord with bodyguard, Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, Tyrannofexes. Heavy shooty Nids with lots of free spam troops.



As I say in 1500 Points I ran: Reserve Tyrant, 3 Trygons, Zoanthropes, Hive Guard, Doom, 2 Tervigons.
Now generally I did okay.

vs Orks id I could halter the transports I could pick them off and eat them up. If their transports got in, it was a bucketload of powerklaw attacks.
vs Eldar, hardest one. Seer council armies are difficult but shadow in the warp helped, I just used to plant my monster on their objectives, they found it hard to shift them and I sat on mine.
vs Chaos, easiest fight. Trygons just eat everything Chaos has, they really couldn't handle them.
vs Marines, only hard thing about these is a good marine player, being canny with their tanks, even then when I got in they died quite quickly.
vs IGuard, my bane, they backup with so much firepower shoot me to ribbons. I really couldn't handle an Imperial Guard army.
vs Daemons, nice matchup very 50:50, I lost a game vs a good Daemon Player which costed me 2nd place at a main tournament. It's very evenly matched and very close, it all boils down to the dice in my experience.
vs Space Wolves, Jaws could be a pain, but that's it. They can shoot you alot, but again when you get in, they usually died quite quickly.
vs Dark Eldar, win big lose big Matchup. Either their guns would fail and i'd eat them up or their guns wouldn't fail and i'd be blasted out of sight.

Anyway there is hard matchups, but also easy matchups, like any tactical game it's a bit of both.
Having said that I stopped the game just over a year ago now, I can't imagine it has become too different. There has been since then what Blood Angels, Dark Eldar and Greyknights codices which I haven't faced.

But really I don't think Tyranids are as bad as people make out, i reckon based on what i've read in this thread people aren't optimising their army lists.
Thanks,

Petx4

And again a perfectly reasonable post but beside the point! It's about the limited choice when optimising and the fact that no competitive list comes even close to what tyranid armies are described as in the fluff.

This thread is like two broken records. One keeps repeating that tyranids arent weak and the other keeps repeating that power level isn't the point.

fwacho
14-06-2011, 19:36
Sorry to hear that Bestaltan, though in all fairness I think your problem is more with the WAAC crowd who don't want to admit they got outplayed.

This winter I was deciding between space wolves and nids because I wanted a CC army that plays different from my eldar, I ended up going with wolves because they're a lot easier to transport and I love how much you can customize wolf lords and wolfguard. Now I'm excited with how well grey knights are doing cause I think the WAAC crowd might jump ship, failing that i'm hoping for an OTT chaos book so my wolves don't have quite as bad as reputation.

they've already headed over to grey knights here. only a few BA guys left.

althathir
15-06-2011, 00:03
Which I think is indicative of 5th edition as a whole. Privateer Press is looking better and better right now. ;)

Eh, I think it has a lot of the same problems, they just run their business a bit more customer friendly so people give them a bit of pass, if you play in competitive environments you have to deal with bad sports. I just think more than anything TOs have to realize that WAAC players tend to abuse things like sportsmanship scores cause of the whole win at all costs thing :D. I really don't like sportsmanship scores effecting tournament standings 'ard boyz does fine without them.



And again a perfectly reasonable post but beside the point! It's about the limited choice when optimising and the fact that no competitive list comes even close to what tyranid armies are described as in the fluff.

This thread is like two broken records. One keeps repeating that tyranids arent weak and the other keeps repeating that power level isn't the point.

I have to admit part of the reason that I still kinda want to start nids is the fact that they are unforgiving. Also as a fairly experienced player I can acknowledge that I've been out played, and think I can outplay some people too. I think people tend to discount how big of factor player skill is its made worse because of the way people give advice on most 40k forums, it pretty much solely revolves around list building. IMO I think a large portion of players expect to win because they do have 3 psy rifle dreads, long fangs, trueborn, firedragons, Melta vets etc..

In other words I think nids are the worst 5th edition book, but that I want the challenge to win with them.


they've already headed over to grey knights here. only a few BA guys left.

Thats what im hoping for, BA have a really underrated codex imo so you might be stuck with them. I just don't know if grey knights will stick, so far they've done well but people haven't looked for counters for them yet.

Threeshades
15-06-2011, 10:15
In other words I think nids are the worst 5th edition book, but that I want the challenge to win with them.


More power to you.

All I want is to be able to make an effective army consisting of a mix of a few monstrous creatures, mid-bugs and a big swarm of throwaway creatures, like nids used to be a long time ago. Oh and of course carnifexes and lictors, my two favourite tyranid creatures.

Bartali
15-06-2011, 11:30
Going to back to why the the Tyranid codex is poor, it can be summed up nicely by the "Subterranean Assault" rule. Nice fluffy idea that they ran out of time to devolp properly.

Fixer
15-06-2011, 11:37
Then there's the problem with combat resolution.
Had 4 units in a single combat, Trygon, 2x squads of 20 Termagants and a Tervigon.

Monstrous creatures carved things up nicely, but casualties on the guants meant I lost by 12. This was then multiplied into 40 wounds as I had to make saves on each unit, wiping out all but 12 guants.

You're supposed to have the little ankle biters holding things up until your big guys get in to hurt and have group charges, but due to these rules you just can't do that.

Something like 'Will of the hive mind. You ignore D6 combat resolution wounds per unit in combat' would be nice.

Blink
15-06-2011, 11:39
That was a terribly generic name, Fixer... Everything the Tyranid do is the will of the hive mind.

Fixer
15-06-2011, 11:52
Since the will of the hive mind was quoted as the thing that gave Nid monsters immunity to instant death last edition, it seemed appropriate.

nedius
15-06-2011, 11:52
A rule more along the lines that synapse units don't take combat resolution wounds gained from other units, but only those applied to themselves - so the little gribblies are sacrificing themselves to protect the hive node.