PDA

View Full Version : Preparing 2k HE for team play!



BBWags
03-06-2011, 16:12
Hey, all, I'm pretty new to Fantasy Battle, but I'm getting back into it with a friend of mine and we are looking to do some team battles at our LSG. We are both competitive people, but we've decided to temper that by trying to do fluffy/fun lists. Personally, for me, that translates into whatever models I like :-)

My friend, I believe, will be playing Bretonnia, so I was wondering if 1) people might comment on my list as is, and 2) if people might comment on how it would compliment (or otherwise) a standard Bretonnia list... Thanks for the help!

Archmage - (Not set on a lore, but probably Life for the buffing spells - no Dwellers for me) Level 4, Talisman of Preservation, Silver Wand, Folariath's Robe

Noble - BSB, Armor of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix, Great Weapon

Mage - Level 1, Jewel of the Dusk (probably go High Magic, the jewel to help him get off the shield spell if I don't roll anything better without taking too much from the main power pool)

20x LSG w/ Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame

20x Spearmen w/ Full Command

20x Phoenix Guard w/ Full Command, Standard of Discipline (Archmage is my general, he goes here for LD10 inspiring presence. Right? I can do this, yes?)

15x Sword Masters w/ Full Command, Amulet of Light (Probably set up in ranks of 7 with an extra in the third rank, but 15 filled out my points total.)

Lion Chariot of Chrace (I love this model! I love those lions in combat!)

Great Eagle

Great Eagle

Exactly 2000 points, what do you think? It's probably not super competitive, but again, I'm not going for WAAC. Will it stand up at least decently to most opponents?

Francis
03-06-2011, 17:11
It's a good list m8 nothing much to put my finger on. One thing is that you might as well exchange ToP on the Archmage for Talisman of Saphery and save 5 points there. The 15 strong SMs should be reduced to 14 since they will only attack in two ranks anyway.

That gives you 20 extra points, remove the SoD on the Phoenix Guard since I can't possibly see that it will give you the ld 10 inspiring presence you want (allthough you would have to get better rule lawyers than me to be sure, it just feels wrong, especially since it says that models in this unit can't use the inspiring presence rule in the banner description (not pure raw but still)). Anyway with SoD removed you got 35 points free, that will bump your other mage to lvl 2 :D

BBWags
03-06-2011, 18:49
Well, if the banner of discipline/ general combo is an issue best left to rules lawyers, then that means I'll leave it out of my list. I want this to be a friendly fun type deal; I don't want any arguments or cries of cheese.

I'm not sure about taking the talisman away... Even with the robe, aren't there plenty of ways for the arch-mage to bite it, not least of which might be his own miscasts?

If I could free up 50 points, however, would adding a third eagle or beefing up some units be a better option?

thesheriff
03-06-2011, 19:24
Welcome back :p

Looks good mate. There are a couple of things i would change;
*I prefer two units of 25 spears w. command for my core.
*Banner of Sorcery is very good on phoiniex guard. Especially with 2 mages.
*I prefer lore of beasts on my back up mages. S4, T4 high elves is quite nice.
*I find lion chariots work best in pairs. You might want to get anouther one at the expense of something else.

Also, Im curious to see the comment about dwellers. Why no likey?

thesheriff

D'Haran
03-06-2011, 19:52
List looks pretty decent, you could get more boots on the table by turning the LSG into spearmen. I know they're cool but they're more worth while at higher point games.

Lion Chariots are fun but are definitely for supporting combat rather than taking it alone.

I'd like to see the BoS in the list on the PG rather than the SoD, I'd drop the champions in the core units and a SM to make room for it.

There's a lot of good magic options so do whatever works for you as far as lore goes.

I find that 3 Eagles at 2k is overkill and you end up not having enough for them to do in most games, so stick with 2.

BBWags
03-06-2011, 19:52
Welcome back :p

Looks good mate. There are a couple of things i would change;
*I prefer two units of 25 spears w. command for my core.
*Banner of Sorcery is very good on phoiniex guard. Especially with 2 mages.
*I prefer lore of beasts on my back up mages. S4, T4 high elves is quite nice.
*I find lion chariots work best in pairs. You might want to get anouther one at the expense of something else.

Also, Im curious to see the comment about dwellers. Why no likey?

thesheriff

I will have to insider the lore of beasts... What would you suggest to change in order to fit another chariot in?

Regarding Dwellers, I see it as too much of a one shot wonder. You get it off and decimate a unit. Whoopee. I mean, is it effective? Sure! But I'd rather use a bunch of things to win rather than depend on that one. I might feel different if it at least allowed ward saves...

thesheriff
03-06-2011, 22:47
I will have to insider the lore of beasts... What would you suggest to change in order to fit another chariot in?

Regarding Dwellers, I see it as too much of a one shot wonder. You get it off and decimate a unit. Whoopee. I mean, is it effective? Sure! But I'd rather use a bunch of things to win rather than depend on that one. I might feel different if it at least allowed ward saves...

I have no idea what you should drop tbh.

Don't rely on dwellers. But if you roll it, you might as well use it. Dwellers won't win you a game. But it will contribute to an overall victory. Do, your still using it in conjunction with other stuff.

Oh, I noticed something else, swap talisman of preservation for talisman of saphery. Great combo!

BBWags
04-06-2011, 00:14
So basically everyone thinks the Robe is all the protection the arch-Mage needs? I guess if I go that way I'd better just keep him away from magical damage... I will consider all that has been suggested and post another list soon.

Any other thoughts? How about how this list might work in tandem with a cav heavy Bret list?

Trains_Get_Robbed
04-06-2011, 07:14
How ironic, I play both of those armies :rolleyes: :D

Your list is currently crashing agianst meta themes. You have Phoniex Guard, and you hvae Life. In my personal opinon and taste, P.G suck, and will not kill anything at all ever without Shadow magic -I'm not delveing into the topical discussion on this vs. that, just as long as you understand that.

Instead, if your running life, look to take 20 W.L instead with the BoS, as the BoS is a steal, and must have for H.E at 50 points.

I would consider this bulid if your not taking the book;

D.Scroll, ToS, Fol.Robes. It makes this guy a challenge monster, and pretty much nigh unkillable. Personally, I tend not to run the Book/Teclis unless at tourneys, but if I'm playing a competetive friendly game I take this, at it really helps, as if I run into any charcter that my units can't kill, the mage offers up/accepts the challenge.

My Lvl4 has multiple purposes when I play:

1. With the 4 spells he knows he looks for Regrowth, Flesh, Earthblood, and Throne. He is meant to buff your units, so I put him in the W.L throw out Regen on them, and then Flesh to Stone on the S.M unit.

2. He can be a challenge monster as already stated -just stay away from inherent magical attacks.

3. etc. .. etc. . .

4. etc. . . etc. . .

If your taking a Lvl 4 with this lore, consider taking a Lvl 2 with something offensive. With your lvl 2 being completely defensive, your lvl 2 will have free reign with as many dice availble, which will negate the weak casting lvl of the lvl 2. Of late I have been experimenting with Fire (I normally take Shadow as secondary lore) and throw 3-4 dice at a 2D6 fireball and then the other 4-6 at flaming sword of Rhuin, which now makes your 14 or so W.L attacks auto wound agaisnt anything at T4 and below per the new FAQ. If you don't have the Flamming Sword of Rhuin, then instead just cast whatever else ya got.

I often take the Annulian Crystal if I have no Scroll on the Lvl 4 (and that would be because its more of a fluffy game, or because a took the Silver Wand on the Lvl 4 for a change of pace) and I just wanted to be more competitive, change of pace, etc. . I instead take the Silver Wand and Crown of Command/Reaver Bow on my Lvl 2 (this last one is decently fluffy the R.B build) which can sometimes be good as you have a slightly over a 50% chance of getting Rhuin the spell you want from Fire.

Lion Chariots aren't that great as one could get two Tiranioc for the price of one, however if you can fun two Lions, it does often work better as earlier stated.

Your Spear and LSG units really need to be more than 20 bodies. I normally run mine in 25, in games of 1,500 and up. If you take 20 Spears or LSG as soon as you suffer a causalty, you start losing attacks, and in the LSG's case sometimes volleyfire attacks as well. The problem here is that H.E core kinda suck, we know this, and thus try to take as minimal as we can. Being forced to take them though, we myaswell have them be anvils (Phoniex Guard are just overglorfied Spears that can take a 50 point banner) or be able to hold their own against fast cav, skirmishers, other T3 core units, small T4 core units, smallish monsters and units like 3 R.ogres or a single Tomb Scorpion etc. . .

Spears aren't good, and not as terrible (as others make them out to be by any means, just that 9 points for T3 +5 A.S, S3, W.S 4 single attack isn't that good. . . though its better than peasants or Storm Vermin ;)

3 Eagles at 2K is a bit much, 2 at max, however I never take eagles normally as they tend to just die for me.

Edit: More to come on the Brets and your H.E in another post, for now though sleep.

BBWags
04-06-2011, 12:37
Your list is currently crashing agianst meta themes. You have Phoniex Guard, and you hvae Life.

Now granted, I haven't played long, but it seems last I knew, the Lore of Life was pretty common. How am I crashing against the meta game in taking it? And the same with the Phoenix Guard? In my few games, they've put out moderate damage, been able to survive while doing it, holding up a big enemy unit waiting for help to arrive. Last game, my Sword Masters dealt with their foe, then were able to charge the flank of the Phoenix Guard's enemy and finish them off...


Instead, if your running life, look to take 20 W.L instead with the BoS, as the BoS is a steal, and must have for H.E at 50 points.

I will certainly be including the Banner of Sorcery in my next rendition, but I really can't go with the White Lions, at least not yet... I know it might seem like a silly reason, but the models are just... "meh" to the extreme.


D.Scroll, ToS, Fol.Robes. It makes this guy a challenge monster, and pretty much nigh unkillable. Personally, I tend not to run the Book/Teclis unless at tourneys, but if I'm playing a competetive friendly game I take this, at it really helps, as if I run into any charcter that my units can't kill, the mage offers up/accepts the challenge.
I understand what you're doing here, and I'm not saying its wrong, but as I explained in my first post, I really don't think an un-killable archmage/general really fits my fun/fluffy/friendly theme. Might be fun for me the first few times, but only frustrating to my opponent and that's no fun...


I often take the Annulian Crystal if I have no Scroll on the Lvl 4 (and that would be because its more of a fluffy game, or because a took the Silver Wand on the Lvl 4 for a change of pace) and I just wanted to be more competitive, change of pace, etc. . I instead take the Silver Wand and Crown of Command/Reaver Bow on my Lvl 2 (this last one is decently fluffy the R.B build) which can sometimes be good as you have a slightly over a 50% chance of getting Rhuin the spell you want from Fire.

I will be giving due consideration to each of the lores. And I like that about magic in FB. I can switch lores from game to game and it doesn't affect the point totals at all! I love that flexibility. And this goes for all the wargear as well. Obviously in that case you have to balance points, but that's not too hard. So I'm sure I'll be swapping in/out Silver Wands and Reaver Bows and etc until I find what is most fun.


Lion Chariots aren't that great as one could get two Tiranioc for the price of one, however if you can fun two Lions, it does often work better as earlier stated.

I wouldn't mind having a discussion on this one... If my understanding is correct, people like the Tiranoc Chariot because you can basically get two to each one Lion Chariot and that means 2 sets of impact hits rather than just the one. But impact hits are obviously completely random, and the Tiranoc just melts in combat. It only gets strength 3 attacks from the elven crew (unless they have spears on charge, can't remember, but even then, meh) as opposed to the Lion Chariot's strength 5 attacks with higher WS from both crew and lions, not to mention that Lion Chariot has a better armor save. So it seems like unless the ONLY reason you want the chariot is to get impact hits, then the Lion Chariot wins hands down, even at almost twice the price. And I guess I'm much more the consistent results player rather than the single dice roll player. But if my reasoning is wrong, please explain it to me (this addressed to anyone and everyone).


Spears aren't good, and not as terrible (as others make them out to be by any means, just that 9 points for T3 +5 A.S, S3, W.S 4 single attack isn't that good. . . though its better than peasants or Storm Vermin ;)

This is what I hear all the time concerning our core . . . but hey, its all we have. So I'm not going to worry about it. I have extra spearmen to try going all spears for core, but for the time being, since they all suck anyway, I'm gonna go with the LSG models that I like the look of. :-)

Trains_Get_Robbed
05-06-2011, 08:27
The Nigh Unkillable steup isn't really 'chessey' and who says you have to challenge with it, or accept with it against all the ++3 Ward S7 5A +1A.S reroll your own ward chaos general that is around.

I say that Life and Phoniex Guard are 'meta crashing' ideas mainly and simply because S.M have 2A at S5 WS6, and W.L have 1A S6 WS5, neither one of these units have any problem killing just about anything. However, P.G have 1A S4 WS5, P.G will be hard pressed to kill anything that is T4 or greater, or that has a decent save of any kind. Shadow buffs their killing ability, which is practically eliminated when being used as almost every player will have them 5 wide maximizing C.R, and hencely the reason to make the most killing potential out of the 9-11 attacks depending on whats in the unit.


In short, to simiply and topical breadth at minimum:

Life Magic dosen't boost the P.G's killing abilit, Shadow does.

However, Shadow dosen't boost W.L surviavability, Life does.

The chariots discussion has been semi-hit on the head. True, you get a few measly S5-6 attacks from the crew, but your not looking for the crew to do anything, your looking for the impact hits as you have said.

2 T's give you: M9, 4 S4 on charge, 4 S3, +5 A.S, T4, WS5 and 2D6 impact hits

1 L.C gives you: M7, 4 S6, 4S5, WS4/5, +4 A.S, T4 and 1D6 impact hits

You pay 20 points less for the Lion, and 60 some odd more for a Lion over a Tiranioc, for what? +1 A.S and a few measley attacks from the crew/mount? You take chartiots for their movement, and ability to deal significant damaging blows by charcter sniping, or flanks etc. . . The Lion Chariot dosen't even get a T boost to 5, thats how lame it is.

BBWags
05-06-2011, 23:15
Well, here's an update. Granted, it's not a bunch of HUGE changes, but oh well :-)

Archmage - Level 4, Folariath's Robe, Annulian Crystal

Noble - BSB, Armor of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix, Great Weapon

Mage - Level 1, Silver Wand

20x LSG w/ Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame

20x Spearmen w/ Full Command

20x Phoenix Guard w/ Full Command, Banner of Sorcery

14x Sword Masters w/ Full Command, Amulet of Light

Lion Chariot of Chrace

Great Eagle

Great Eagle

I'm going to play at least a few games with this set up, at least as far as core goes . . . but if it really doesn't work, I'll try the two units of 25 spearmen deal.

thesheriff
06-06-2011, 10:46
Swap the crystal and silver wand around. With life magic, you need as many spells as possible to benefit from throne of vines. And a lv.1 w. wand could be a lv.2 for 25pts.

And forlaiths robes wont protect the mage on his/her own. It really benefits from talismain of saphery. If your not using both, just takke talismain of preservation (common 4++ ward).