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lordofsteel
05-06-2011, 04:26
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Hey what's up guys. I just recently got into fantasy and decided to roll vampire counts. I'm a long time veteran of 40k and finally converted to fantasy in hopes to see a new side of the hobby and game.

Anyway, here's the thing. I really lack the general competence to make my own Vampire Counts army list and I was hoping someone could steer me in the right direction. Yes, a bit of a task to ask, but I need a rough list made for me. The reason for this, is simply so I make the right decisions when purchasing new units, as well as assembling basic units with the appropriate weapon and upgrade choices (I'm a bit fussy with the WYSIWYG).

Their is a catch! It may make things a bit difficult (or impossible), but their are certain units I'm just not interested in using because I don't like the models. These units are, Zombies, Bats of any sort, Dire Wolves and Ghouls.

Anyway, I'm looking for something in the 1000-2000 point range.

All in all I might be asking for more than I should get, but if you can help me out I would greatly appreciate it.
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"Edit- Not sure why it says BoC beside my post but I'm guessing that's Beasts of Chaos, How do I change it to VC?

Ville
05-06-2011, 12:06
Ok, I'll try. Be warned, as I am a novice VC player as well!

Vampire Lord
-MOTBA
-Forbidden Lore (Vampires)
-Lord Of The Dead
-Helm Of Commandment
-Cadaverous Cuirass

Wight King
-BSB

10 Skeletons (bunker)

35 Skeletons
-Full Command, War Banner

25 Skeletons
-Full Command, Banner Of Hellfire

30 Grave Guard
-Full Command, Banner Of The Barrows

4 Wraiths

Black Coach

This adds up to 1950 points, maybe buy an extra magic level for the Vampire. He sits in his bunker, and basically spams spells and lends his WS7 where it's needed. Hopefully GG will do the killing, while Wraiths try to hold up nasty stuff.

Skeletons are horribly overpriced, so it's probably not a very good list.

I had the same problem with Ghouls and Zombies, the models. That was, until I found their Mantic equivalents, which rock! I would check them out if I were you.

thesheriff
05-06-2011, 20:28
Your basically going for a martial vamp army (nothing slimey or not a skellaton or vampire). Cool.

Missing out on ghouls is a bit of a downside. They are probably the better core choice for vamps. But, using minimum skellies is no biggy. Units of 30 w. shields, command, going in units of 5x6 ranks will hold up the enemy, and fill your core allotmant.

Grave guard w. banner of the barrows are win.

I have found a Vampire lord w. blooddrinker, Red fury, steed in a unit of 6 bloodknights to be very potent. Especially with the banner of strigos. Or, if your on a budjet, banner of eternal flame.

other than that, charecters and special choices to your flavour.

thesheriff

Aluinn
05-06-2011, 23:58
To add to what others have said about Skeletons, there are certain ways to mitigate their underpoweredness:

-Run them in "bus" formation, i.e. 5-wide and fairly deep. This is a defensive formation which maximizes static combat res and makes the actual combat stats of the unit less important. Which is good, because Skeletons are kinda bad in that department.

-Use hand weapons and shields, never spears. Again, the idea there is to be defensive, and the Parry save is one thing Skellies have over Ghouls. Plus (maybe even most importantly) it makes them cheaper.

-Put a combat character at the front of your Skelly bus, at least a Wight King with a great weapon, though I like to use a Vampire Lord tricked out for combat. What this does is allow your unit to win combat consistently, and then, because of your formation, you may be able to deny the enemy unit Steadfast status, thus breaking them and running them down.

-Take full command always, and use a magic banner that increases static combat res, i.e. War Banner or Banner of the Endless Nightmare. These really play to the unit's strengths, and having the banners also is a plus in the Blood and Glory scenario, which can be a problem for an army filling its Core with Ghouls.

-Keep them in range of the BSB so that if they lose combat, the "crumbling" from Unstable is lessened.

With all these precautions I find that Skeletons become serviceable. VC are likely going to be spending minimal points on Core anyway, because their Special (Grave Guard) and Rare choices are so strong, but expensive.

Anyway, I think you'll find this is a fun army to play. There are a couple of frustrating points, like the devastating effect of your general's death (and when it happens because of an early miscast, even worse :)), but it's always fun to be able to raise models back from the dead, and there's some tremendously powerful stuff you can take. Plus, never running away is nice, even if crumbling sucks.

lordofsteel
06-06-2011, 02:33
Thank you guys. I can buy the core of my army much more confidently now.

So always hand weapons, never spears eh. I'll have to break the arms off my first 8 that I've made, no worries though. That brings me to another question though. The Grave Guard, I think they have an option of either 1 handed weapons with shields or just holding a two handed weapon. Is their a superior option there?

Oh, also I wanted to use the Manfred Von Carstein on a barded nightmare model as a regular Vampire (Lord). But is a mount a wise choice? I was planning to get some blood knights so maybe he can ride with them, but again I really don't know how fantasy works yet.

Aluinn
06-06-2011, 09:24
Thank you guys. I can buy the core of my army much more confidently now.

So always hand weapons, never spears eh. I'll have to break the arms off my first 8 that I've made, no worries though. That brings me to another question though. The Grave Guard, I think they have an option of either 1 handed weapons with shields or just holding a two handed weapon. Is their a superior option there?

Oh, also I wanted to use the Manfred Von Carstein on a barded nightmare model as a regular Vampire (Lord). But is a mount a wise choice? I was planning to get some blood knights so maybe he can ride with them, but again I really don't know how fantasy works yet.

Ah well I wouldn't encourage you to break your models! I mean, it's always better to preserve the models than to risk totally ruining them, IMO, even it means a slightly worse gameplay option. Of course, hey, if you can get the arms off easily without snapping parts (and this is probably the case if you used superglue, but may also be doable with plastic glue; that's more iffy), then yeah I'd say, ideally, you should replace them.

And it's a good thing you asked about the Grave Guard, because, yes, the two-handed weapons (great weapons) are a considerably better option in the game.

Finally, yeah, cavalry characters are fine to take provided that you have at least one unit of cavalry to put them in. With a few exceptions, characters in FB almost need to be in units of the same type--i.e. a character on foot in an infantry unit, etc.--as they are fairly easy to hit with war machines (e.g. cannons) if they're alone. A cannon is S10 (thus allowing no armor save and wounding on a 2+), and if it wounds, the single wound is multiplied into D6 wounds, which means there's a good chance of it insta-killing a 3-wound character. Think of it like a T4 character in 40K being hit by a S8 shot, more or less. He may get an invulnerable save (ward saves are essentially the same thing in 40K, with a couple differences), but do you really want to be risking it? It's even worse to lose characters in a VC (or TK) army than for others, in some ways, too.

For this specific case, a Vampire Lord with Blood Knights makes for an extremely powerful unit, too, albeit a very expensive one in points terms.

But a final caveat on your models: When I say that this option or that option may be superior to another for weapons, I don't mean that the inferior one is useless or will make you lose games. So, if, for example, you absolutely hated the way Grave Guard looked with great weapons, but thought they looked amazing with hand weapons and shields, I would recommend you build them with hand weapons and shields because, hey, they're your models, and those less-good options still work just fine. Same goes for spears on Skeletons, or any other choice like that.

In other words, I can comment on what's better on paper (and in use too I suppose), but that's not the only consideration. It's more important to make an army that looks cool to you, IMO :).

thesheriff
06-06-2011, 11:40
Ive seen both GW and HW+S do well with grave guard. But, i would go with GW. Your core will divide into 2 units of 30-ish skellies w. HW shields. You need an offensive combat block.

Id buy both a mounted and foot vamp. Only an extra 10/$18. And you can try out both.

In your situation, build a vampire and a lord which you like. And then, try the lord mounted in a bloodknight unit, and the foot vampire in the GG. And then swap them. See which you think you like best.

lordofsteel
06-06-2011, 17:24
Awesome.

Yeah, I did use super glue so they came off pretty easily. Only 3 need some green stuff repairs.

I do think the spears look cool, but down the road I would probably be numb to their "cooler factor" and just want what works best. I can see why the 1 point makes a difference, in a group of just 20 skeletons the extra 20 points matches the cost of a full command (besides the magic standard which I don't fully understand yet).

Thanks again for the help.

Aluinn
06-06-2011, 19:02
Awesome.

Yeah, I did use super glue so they came off pretty easily. Only 3 need some green stuff repairs.

I do think the spears look cool, but down the road I would probably be numb to their "cooler factor" and just want what works best. I can see why the 1 point makes a difference, in a group of just 20 skeletons the extra 20 points matches the cost of a full command (besides the magic standard which I don't fully understand yet).

Thanks again for the help.

No problem!

I realized I should probably explain the spears vs. hand weapons thing a bit better, so:

The reason spears are generally worse is that, though they give a benefit (an extra rank of attacks, so 5-10 depending on a unit's formation, but probably only 5 with Skeletons), they also come with a drawback. If you have hand weapons/shields you get a Parry save, which is basically a 6+ Invulnerable save (in 40K terms) that you can take in addition to armor saves--i.e. if you fail your armor save you still get this 6+ afterwards, and that 6+ is never eliminated by high S weapons as an armor save might be.

So it works out that, especially in a unit with S3 attacks, the Parry save is about as valuable as the extra rank of attacks, but of course you have to pay extra points for the extra attacks from spears, whereas the Parry save is "free" (in a unit that comes with free shields, but even if you had to pay for shields, you'd probably want them whether you had spears or hand weapons either way).

And the Skeletons are a very defensive unit in the sense that their job is more to tie things up, have static combat res (i.e. "count as" having killed models via having ranks and a standard), and die as little as possible. So to pay points for an offensive upgrade which also requires that you sacrifice a measure of defense is generally not a good idea.

This won't necessarily apply to every unit in the game. For example, Lizardmen Saurus have a fairly high S (4) and so I can see the merit of taking spears on them, since the extra attacks are worth more in that case. But most units that have an option for spears have human-like stats and thus tend not to be offensive unless they have entirely other weapons which increase their Strength, like halberds or great weapons, and then of course the spears vs. hw/s debate becomes a moot point.

Speaking of Strength, it's far more important in Fantasy because not only does it allow you to wound more easily, but it also reduces enemy armor saves. It is by far the most important combat stat, though there are units with average S that can do well in combat by virtue of having, say, a ton of attacks, special rules like Poison, etc. And this is the reason why great weapons are generally regarded as better for Grave Guard: They grant +2 S, which is a huge buff, and means that they're not only going to almost always wound on 2s, but that their opposition will never really be getting much in the way of an armor save, unless they're heavy cav who started with a 1+.

So in Fantasy, S6 (Grave Guard with great weapons) is almost like having a S6 power weapon in 40K, which as you'll know would be really good :).

On the other hand, Grave Guard with hand weapons/shields are an extremely tough unit, but, because your Core (Skeletons) are so defensive, you really need to get some strong offense elsewhere in the list. With a Core of Ghouls it would be less an issue, because Ghouls are the more offensively-oriented Core unit.

EDIT: I'm sorry you need to greenstuff some of the Skeletons! That sucks. I hope it goes easily.