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feintstar
06-06-2011, 01:23
Many of my colleagues have left this hobby over the years. A number of factors contributed to this I admit - work life balance, marriage etc. But a few things appear again and again in the list of perceived wrongs from the GW community:

1. De-legalisation of army lists. My Craftworld Eldar, along with my friends' Chapter approved, along with another friend's IG Doctrine list, along with another friends' chapter traits list were all banned as the game carried on. In many cases, these armies were made illegal before they had been finished collecting.

2. Codex creep: Each new army being better than the ones that preceded is a common theme, and while it may not be true on a book by book basis, year by year this is certainly true.

3. Ultra competitive Metagame, changing the feel and making this hobby much less pleasant.

In response to this, GW released Apocalypse. Throw out the rulebook, play with whatever you want. This hasn't had the desired effect for me, particularly, as Apocalypse is distinctly aimed at v high points values games, and also has a 'silliness' feel that I can't quite shake, while also I find that it doesn't recall the nail biting tension of the older classics like space hulk and space crusade.

Therefore I propose a middle ground alternative that might return those of us who are jaded to our past and the days of yore:

Open 40K Rule Suggestion:

1. Any Armylist ever published from 3rd ed onward may be used - Iron warriors with their extra heavy support etc., Craftworlders with their Aspect Troops choices, all may be made legal.

2. Any Unit from those same armylists may be used, and may be mix matched - a Land Raider Redeemer may appear alongside a Deathwatch Kill Team

3. Units may be modified by chapter traits etc., but when they are, those same units may not be modified by current rules, i.e. each unit must be internally consistent - eg a IG doctrine infantry unit may not benefit from Orders given by their latest ed. commanding officer, while units with apothecary upgrades must use their own, older apothecary rules rather than including dozens of Apothecaries all bestowing FNP.



Now well may you say that this might result in ultra cheesy combos. I haven't thought of any - I can't be bothered, but that's as it may - this is balanced somewhat by the rulescreep displayed by later armylists. Does it really seem unfair for my aspect warriors to come as troops when GK Terminator lists exist? Or is it right that you can field massive blobs of 3++ terminators or Valkyries while Chapter approved TSons or Death Guard armies with their free sorcerers/Aspiring champions aren't allowed to work, ostensibly because they are 'unbalanced'?

You still need 2 Troops and an HQ - and this matters, so it isn't an Apocalypse list.

You can play a mixture of standard 40K missions and Apocalypse like special missions - you can even use the old Cities of Death rules - its Open 40K for use of anything that's out there.

And lastly, Even GW should think that this is a reasonable middle ground, because it doesn't prevent buying new units- on the contrary, a gaming culture which includes this as a real alternative will be more inclusive and allow for greater freedom, giving us ever increasing options without forcing us to abandon the things we love for some imagined greater fairness.

I would play this, I hope you would too.

MOMUS
06-06-2011, 04:54
Why is it called whineseer? :rolleyes:


To sum up what you just said:

Play how you want to play, not how someone else dictates. The rules are just a beginning the best thing a wargames company can sell you is their setting.

It may shock you to know that many, many people already do this. When they brought out apoc alot of people said 'Hey thats how we always play!'.

Maybe GW should start selling common sense? (finecast of course)

Lord of Divine Slaughter
06-06-2011, 05:03
Yeah. Don't forget to make up houserules to bring armies in line and make the game more fun. Then you'll finally understand what its about.

Congratulations Young Grasshopper. You just went up a level :p

Surgency
06-06-2011, 05:05
to address a couple of your points about perceived failures:

1) The only list that was made completely illegal was those that shall not be named. You can still field a Craftworld Eldar list. You can still field Legion lists. They may not be as powerful as they once were, but the options are still there. Just because a unit was moved from Troops to Fast Attack, or a specific option was removed (basilisks from the CSM codex) and made your chosen list illegal doesn't mean the whole list is illegal. You just have to adapt, modify things a bit, and you still have a fluffy list. The "chapter traits" thing was a dismal failure. I remember seeing all kinds of crazy combos. Wasn't there a perk that gave you tank hunters, or infiltrate? Other perks that made Apothecaries SGTs or something? And what was the only drawback that you ever saw on the table? "We Stand Alone". You can't take allies. :eyebrows: Such a terrible drawback, it really hindered your army.......

3) You can't blame GW for your local meta. Thats completely the fault of the local players. You can claim that GW should only ever have completely balanced books, but unless you make every unit exactly like every other unit, there will be options that are more powerful, and options that are innately more competitive. If someone in your local meta is overly competitive, guess what he's going to build for an army?

No one says you can't come up with your own scenarios. I'm in the midst of writing several special scenarios, ranging from last stands, to first strike missions, to real raids and infiltrations. I fully intend to have a list of a dozen or more special scenarios, where the objective is to kill a specific model, or capture a specific token, or merely to survive for more than 3 turns against overwhelming odds... Apocalypse was meant to show you that you didn't have to be confined to the restrictions in the rule book. Don't like the force org chart? Well, if your local group is okay with it, bring your whole collection and throw it on the table. Run an alpha strike mission where the attacker doesn't have any heavy support. Run a Strongpoint defense where the defender doesn't have any Fast Attack... Run a mission where your units are on a training exercise, so elites are unavailable, and each unit only has 2 turns worth of bullets to shoot with. That completely changes how the game is played, and makes it fun, and maybe even a little exciting again.

Bringing back old broken codicies, or replacing a new codex with a 3rd ed codex isn't the way to bring back the fun.

Project2501
06-06-2011, 06:34
I think that as long as the people you play with are for it, give it a go, sounds like a great idea to me.

Lord Damocles
06-06-2011, 08:44
Now well may you say that this might result in ultra cheesy combos. I haven't thought of any...
Double 3.5 Siren Princes backed up by early (T5) 3.5 Obliterators and 4th ed. Plague Marines as Troops. Chuck in some 3.5 ed Daemonettes.

5th ed. Melta Veterans with Drop Troops teamed up with 5th ed. CCMs with Iron Discipline. Lob in some dirt cheap 3rd ed. Rulebook Lascannons.

3rd. ed Iyanden with 4th ed. Wraithlords as Troops.

5th ed. Marines with Cleanse and Purify (plus We Stand Alone).

4th ed. Eldar with the Ranger Disruption Table.

3rd ed. Archons with Combat Drugs and twin-Lance Warrior Squads and Raiders in the 5th ed. codex.


Soonandsoforthetc...

Grimtuff
06-06-2011, 10:32
Double 3.5 Siren Princes backed up by early (T5) 3.5 Obliterators and 4th ed. Plague Marines as Troops. Chuck in some 3.5 ed Daemonettes.

Mounted Daemonettes. Those things were ridiculously underpriced.

So, yeah. bad idea

TheScreamingGodKing
06-06-2011, 10:50
lol can you use apoc units

TywinLannister
06-06-2011, 11:45
I think in friendly games do what you like as long as both players agree.

I know in one instance for example I don't mind my opponent exchanging a Codex: Space Marines Chapter Tactics for one of the special characters versions, so that they don't have to take a special to get the flavour of their army right.

I have no problems with my opponents doing what you suggested in friendly games :D

TheScreamingGodKing
06-06-2011, 11:48
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=306166 cuz my fluff regiment has 10 sup heavs lol, if you wanna read fluff behind it read article

Grimtuff
06-06-2011, 11:50
I know in one instance for example I don't mind my opponent exchanging a Codex: Space Marines Chapter Tactics for one of the special characters versions, so that they don't have to take a special to get the flavour of their army right.

Wow, all the benefits of Vulkan with non of the drawbacks of actually having to buy the character.... :rolleyes:

This really does not explaining any further...

TywinLannister
06-06-2011, 11:52
Wow, all the benefits of Vulkan with non of the drawbacks of actually having to buy the character.... :rolleyes:

This really does not explaining any further...

Refer back to "friendly games", actually the guy is a Salamanders player and gives all his guys Initiative 3 as well, and win or lose, I like playing this guy, the games are always fun

Okuto
06-06-2011, 11:52
I don't see the prob really, as long as both agree.....people still let me use the old chaos dex to play my alpha legion and let me play my latd army.....

Wishing
06-06-2011, 12:25
I agree with several previous posters that this is the best approach to playing 40k. Plenty of people would moan that some overpowered aspect of the game that has since been edited out would be back again, but hey, you'd get the chance to try out the overpowered options of the current editions against the overpowered options of previous editions - what's not to like? There's always going to be something that's overpowered, who cares if it's current or outdated.

I'd kind of see it as an evolutionary experiment... you'd get to see what the most popular army choices would be across a wide spectrum of time rather than only across the current set of codexes. Awesome.

massey
06-06-2011, 15:47
I've found I have the most fun with 40K when I get a group of people together and we decide to house rule certain things. It might include using a special rule from an old codex, making up our own missions, using a special experience points system for characters to develop, or whatever we feel like at the time.

Personally, I've always wanted to incorporate the old 1 and 2 wound leaders from the 3rd ed pamphlet Space Marine codex. I liked the idea that Captain Bob was too busy to take part in a 500 point battle, but Lt Jones (really just a sergeant with an extra attack) who costs like 30 points could be your HQ choice. I have buddies who don't have a problem with me bringing something like that, even though it's not in the codex. Likewise I don't care if he brings his lovingly converted Eldar guy on a Viper (from the Craftworld codex) who is no longer legal.

Cooperation really can make the game more fun.

Carlosophy
06-06-2011, 16:09
Wow, all the benefits of Vulkan with non of the drawbacks of actually having to buy the character.... :rolleyes:

This really does not explaining any further...

Percieved problems with the game are created by the core rules being out of whack, not the codices. The only reason you see Vulkan everywhere is because of the mech metagame. If/when transports get nerfed a little bit then the abundance of Melta will disappear.

Grimtuff
06-06-2011, 16:13
Percieved problems with the game are created by the core rules being out of whack, not the codices. The only reason you see Vulkan everywhere is because of the mech metagame. If/when transports get nerfed a little bit then the abundance of Melta will disappear.

But I don't see Mech everywhere, that's the thing. It is pure Internet hyperbole IMO. Granted Meltas are a brilliant good in all situations weapon, even without this supposed abundance of Mech you would see a lot of them.

Casper Hawser
06-06-2011, 19:09
I don't mind anyone using an old codex because the new one has made their army illegal it seems only the right thing to do. I wouldn't be up for mixing codex's like everyones said you can create specific scenarios or use house rules to mix things up with friends.

H.LaFever
06-06-2011, 19:12
Awesome OP, dont let the meta get you down. play hard!