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Rogerio
07-06-2011, 16:47
Hey guys, ive been wondering what peoples thoughts are on this? is the SM codex better than the CSM one? i see alot of complaining about the CSM codex and although i am collecting a sizeable force of Iron Warriors i havent had the chance to play many games with them.

My force contains alot of tanks and vehicles, and i was wondering if using the SM codex would be better for a firepower style army like IW with the use of Razorbacks, plasma cannons in squads and the ability to split squads as well as having dreadnoughts that dont go insane every 2 seconds??

Just a thought!

djhowitzer
07-06-2011, 16:50
could work. but loads of people will moan

Chem-Dog
07-06-2011, 17:21
I'd do it just so I could use the Master of the Forge as a Warsmith.

In all honesty I can't see anyone complaining about you using a stand-in list, most complaints are generated by bandwagoneering with the newest thing out, well that and the interchangability of Power Armour armies in general.

Just keep it clear what you're using from the outset and use the appropriate terms for the units you're using.

Rogerio
07-06-2011, 17:28
I'd do it just so I could use the Master of the Forge as a Warsmith.

In all honesty I can't see anyone complaining about you using a stand-in list, most complaints are generated by bandwagoneering with the newest thing out, well that and the interchangability of Power Armour armies in general.

Just keep it clear what you're using from the outset and use the appropriate terms for the units you're using.

Cool, i may give it a go im still not sure really, I just want an army full of tanks and troops who can pump out fire power from the back of the game, Iron warriors to me feel like quite a shooty army, ive tried making my CSM list quite shooty but its difficult as using CSM squads as firebases negates their assault power.

Razordbacks seem awesome, just split up your squad to have 5 guys with the heavy weapon and the other 5 to have a special weapon and roll around in the Razorback blasting people then jumping out and firing.

mdauben
07-06-2011, 17:43
I would agree that especially for certain factions, the SM codex may actually be a better fit than the CSM book. I certainly would have no problem if someone wanted to run a "codex" SM list using Iron Warrior (for example) miniatures.

Mr. Ultra
07-06-2011, 18:48
In my area is the most common thing. In fact, we are 5 Chaos players and none of us uses the current CSM codex.

Ace Rimmer
07-06-2011, 19:06
rather interestingly, I was planning on doing the opposite and using the CSM codex to represent a SM force I'm working on. Not so much Chaos Space Marines, as Space Marines of questionable loyalty.

Ben
07-06-2011, 19:23
I think there's an entire list somewhere giving each chaos legion and the codex to use.

Needless to say Night Legion are better represented by the Blood Angels codex than the CSM one.
And Iron Warriors by the vanilla marine codex.
And World Eaters by the Space Wolf codex.

etc etc etc.

I know, the CSM codex is rubbish. All the 5th ed codices are substantially better, with far more variation for theming your army.

Threeshades
07-06-2011, 20:59
Ive seen a video battle report of someone using codex space marines for iron warriors, and i have to say i find it agreeable. Chaos Space Marines dont have the toys or the technicians to be properly represented. So i say go with it. The only loss are the obliterators.

Rogerio
07-06-2011, 21:30
Ive seen a video battle report of someone using codex space marines for iron warriors, and i have to say i find it agreeable. Chaos Space Marines dont have the toys or the technicians to be properly represented. So i say go with it. The only loss are the obliterators.

I dont use obliterators! just many tanks, i really want some razorbacks and a venerable dread with lovely shootiness!

AlphariusOmegon20
07-06-2011, 21:46
To the OP: Just about every Alpha Legion player has thought about doing the very thing you propose doing at some point in their time playing AL.

spaghettyhoop
07-06-2011, 21:47
I like the idea, even fluffwise it makes sense way more than most counts as armies you see.

A marine army that falls to chaos shouldnt suddenly lose all of its current tech and gain new stuff! I love the idea of "spiked up" chaos razorback, or land raider redeemer! Would really stand out. It could easily be a chapter thats fallen recently or long after the heresy.

Plus, the weapons all look the same, nobody can argue its unfair because of you using counts as weapons, because its blatently obvious what everything is, even if you "chaos" it up.

I think its a great idea.

stroller
07-06-2011, 22:21
Maybe I'm getting old. Maybe I'm the old embaressing relative - bit smelly and curmudgeonly in the corner. There's a CSM codex. For using with chaos space marines. Use that. Or, if you like the SM codex - use it with space marines. It isn't THAT hard is it?

Kevlar
07-06-2011, 22:58
The chaos marine codex is just pitiful compared to the newer books. Look at the price of a unit of longfangs compared to a similarly equipped but less effective unit of havocs. Chaos gets the shaft in a lot of directions. Generic demons with no special abilities don't make up for the huge points difference.

Threeshades
07-06-2011, 23:17
I dont use obliterators! just many tanks, i really want some razorbacks and a venerable dread with lovely shootiness!

I just mean, for Iron Warriors players in general the only loss in using Codex Spess Mahreens will be the inability to field Oblits.

twistedmarine
07-06-2011, 23:30
Maybe I'm getting old. Maybe I'm the old embaressing relative - bit smelly and curmudgeonly in the corner. There's a CSM codex. For using with chaos space marines. Use that. Or, if you like the SM codex - use it with space marines. It isn't THAT hard is it?


I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume your the kinda person I will not play games with. There isn't a damn thing wrong with what he's planning in doing. C:CSM is not horrible, but it destroyed the diversity of chaos.

Lunk
07-06-2011, 23:45
I am working on something similar. I am using the Space Wolves codex to represent a group in the middle of falling. All of the Blood Claws will have Khorne helmets, with legs, torso, and weapons being a mix of wolves and chaos. Grey Hunters will be undivided. No one I know complains as long as its still wysiwyg.

Lord Gabranth
08-06-2011, 01:44
The loss of the marks, Legion sizes, and other chaos styled gear has me wanting to use the CSM codex. If you want to do that, then fine, I would even play you. And yes the 3.5 CSM codex was the best imho, but it still has its uses and strenghts over that of the SM codex

althathir
08-06-2011, 02:00
Hey guys, ive been wondering what peoples thoughts are on this? is the SM codex better than the CSM one? i see alot of complaining about the CSM codex and although i am collecting a sizeable force of Iron Warriors i havent had the chance to play many games with them.

My force contains alot of tanks and vehicles, and i was wondering if using the SM codex would be better for a firepower style army like IW with the use of Razorbacks, plasma cannons in squads and the ability to split squads as well as having dreadnoughts that dont go insane every 2 seconds??

Just a thought!

Yeah it should work fine, Chem-dog has a good point about master of the forge as a warsmith.

In all honesty though use the rules you want as long as the models fit.

SgtTaters
08-06-2011, 03:40
I am working on something similar. I am using the Space Wolves codex to represent a group in the middle of falling. All of the Blood Claws will have Khorne helmets....No one I know complains as long as its still wysiwyg.

the fact that you're using Blood Claws and not all meltahunters in razorbacks is enough for everyone to bring you a beer every time you show up at the store

moartiki
08-06-2011, 03:49
Ive seen a video battle report of someone using codex space marines for iron warriors, and i have to say i find it agreeable. Chaos Space Marines dont have the toys or the technicians to be properly represented. So i say go with it. The only loss are the obliterators.

That would be Whiteknight who uses an army like that, really inspirational, Im planning on doing the same.

Dark Elite
08-06-2011, 03:54
Hey guys, ive been wondering what peoples thoughts are on this? is the SM codex better than the CSM one? i see alot of complaining about the CSM codex and although i am collecting a sizeable force of Iron Warriors i havent had the chance to play many games with them.

My force contains alot of tanks and vehicles, and i was wondering if using the SM codex would be better for a firepower style army like IW with the use of Razorbacks, plasma cannons in squads and the ability to split squads as well as having dreadnoughts that dont go insane every 2 seconds??

Just a thought!
Well you could do so, but what's wrong with the CSM except the dreads going insane?

Haunter!
08-06-2011, 05:56
I just mean, for Iron Warriors players in general the only loss in using Codex Spess Mahreens will be the inability to field Oblits.

True, but at least you can bring out Thunderfire Cannons.

Rogerio
08-06-2011, 06:23
Ive made a list for my using the SM codex and its basically

Master of the forge with a conversion beamer, 3/4 squads if marines with Razorbacks and heavy weapons plus a dread with Plasma cannon and ML. Then 2 vindi 1 predator. Which is very close to my CSM list just with more firepower from the razordbacks and reliability from the dread which is what i am after. I just want to represent my army properly with what i think the IW would field and how they would fight.

Annoys me having to use loads of cult troops in my CSM list just to make it work (although i do love my converted forgeworld world eaters :p )

Col. Dash
08-06-2011, 14:04
Go for it.
C:Space marines makes a great base for IW and Alpha Legion(they disguise themselves as Imperials anyway).
Night Lords just depends on your take on Night Lords. If you are Raptor heavy then definately Blood Angels. If you are troop and terminators heavy, Space wolves. Justification is NLs see in the dark, are all a bunch of individuals and SW actually can see in the dark, and they are a very individually customizable force.

Unless its an all termy army I do not see the point of a Khornate SW force, in fact that would be the only way I would use SW for non NL chaos is for the God-Wing lists

Memnos
08-06-2011, 14:26
I think it's fine to represent something with another book. After all, you could be using that other book.

On the other hand, if you're choosing it just because it's more powerful. That's kinda lame. ;)

AlphariusOmegon20
09-06-2011, 23:17
Go for it.
C:Space marines makes a great base for IW and Alpha Legion(they disguise themselves as Imperials anyway).
Night Lords just depends on your take on Night Lords. If you are Raptor heavy then definately Blood Angels. If you are troop and terminators heavy, Space wolves. Justification is NLs see in the dark, are all a bunch of individuals and SW actually can see in the dark, and they are a very individually customizable force.

Unless its an all termy army I do not see the point of a Khornate SW force, in fact that would be the only way I would use SW for non NL chaos is for the God-Wing lists

I'd agree with AL disguising themselves as Imperial, as there are several documented cases of them doing it, but I'm unaware of any case of IW ever doing it. Got a citation for that?

I'm not saying they haven't done it, just that I personally don't know of them doing it, and I'd like to read your source that shows them using this tactic. It sounds interesting.

I wouldn't think they'd use that tactic, based on what I know about them. They seem fairly blatant and straightforward in their tactics normally.

Vedar
09-06-2011, 23:30
This was the vid I saw. This guy has a very fluffy IW list using C:SM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNUP5Uvs2EQ
I'm pretty sure the next CSM codex will have drop pods and it would be nice if they got rid of the Crazed dread. They don't need to all be insane and shooting our own tanks.

Mannimarco
10-06-2011, 00:18
I'd agree with AL disguising themselves as Imperial, as there are several documented cases of them doing it, but I'm unaware of any case of IW ever doing it. Got a citation for that?

I'm not saying they haven't done it, just that I personally don't know of them doing it, and I'd like to read your source that shows them using this tactic. It sounds interesting.

I wouldn't think they'd use that tactic, based on what I know about them. They seem fairly blatant and straightforward in their tactics normally.

I think its just an awkwardly worded reply, hes not saying the IW disguise themselves just that Codex: SM would fit for IW and the AL (the AL disguise themselves as loyalists anyway).

AlphariusOmegon20
10-06-2011, 02:47
I think its just an awkwardly worded reply, hes not saying the IW disguise themselves just that Codex: SM would fit for IW and the AL (the AL disguise themselves as loyalists anyway).

Ah, that would make more sense. I racked my brain for almost an hour and still couldn't think of an instance of them using that tactic after reading that post.

Draconis
10-06-2011, 02:55
could work. but loads of people will moan

To stop people from moaning what you do is reverse it. Instead of playing a CSM army with SM rules, try playing a SM army using CSM models! It works perfectly.

The Orange
10-06-2011, 03:48
Id play you, its not an unreasonable switch. But imo the whole switching of codicies is getting old, and I blame GW, not players.

Col. Dash
10-06-2011, 12:04
Mannmarco is right, I was referring to the Alpha legion specifically disguising themselves as loyalist(which i think they still are) and referring to both of them able to use the space marine dex effectively.

No one can deny especially with chaos marines that there are loyalist marine codexes that more accurately portray the rules matching with the fluff for individual legions. Not all Legions are "summon the daemons! Rawwwr!"

Freman Bloodglaive
10-06-2011, 13:07
I think it's great.

For my money, Codex Space Marines and its near cousin Codex Blood Angels gives most everything you need to represent (at least loosely) most of the Chaos Legions.

Iron Warriors: Codex Marines led by a Master of the Forge
Night Lords: Codex Blood Angels, the proverbial Descent of Angels army.
World Eaters: Codex Blood Angels, Rhino spam assault squads.
Death Guard: Codex Blood Angels, tactical spam with lots of sanguinary priests
Alpha Legion: Codex Marines, perhaps with Kor'sarro Khan for the outflanking tweaks (biker marines?)
Black Legion: Codex Marines or Codex Space Wolves if you want to field Abaddon and the Black Legion terminators.
Emperor's Children: Codex Marines
Thousand Sons: Grey Knights (it's obvious that Draigo is Magnus)
Word Bearers: Codex Blood Angels, played as conventional marines but with HQ Chaplain and elite Chaplains.

While we would like to see a Chaos Space Marine list that truly represents one of the coolest parts of the 40k fluff, at least the ubiquity of marines means that there are viable options for a modern army list.

drear
10-06-2011, 13:33
i never understand the 'can i use a as b' when its power armour.
unless its very obviously a bandwagon jump with blood angel painted marines using nemesis force weapons that look very similar to chainswords..

in the end your saying this is codex space marines, my marines are green and rotting.
fluff wise you have plague marines. rules and game wise you have codex spacemarines.

its not confusing, its not frowned upon its just paint on plastic.

the people who genrally do imperial codex' to represent chaos are the people wanting it from a fluff perspective, not a power gaming one.

im running codex blood angels as world eaters because theres a character that has a power called ' whirlwind of gore' and its troops want to butcher and drink blood...

im not running it so i can use a dread with psychic powers and wings. im not using the stuff that doesnt fit.

same would go for a thousand sons painted army, using grey knight rules. thousand sons dont have dreadknights..so they arnt used. the reason for it is psychic potential in marines, that link with the warp etc.

in the end all the 'omg you cant rin a as b' is all about painting a spikey marine in chaos coulors.
if i were to run my ultra marines using the chaos code im sure nobody would care.

its not as if your using a defiler and a thunderfire cannon. of a stormraven and a greater deamon..
or playing eldar as necrons..or nids as guardsmen.
its just red or blue power armour.

Drakcore Bloodtear
10-06-2011, 13:51
And if the SM codex doesn't do it you've always got the IA:Babad Wars lists. The Tyrants Legion list is good to represent the IW extensive use of mortal cannon fodder, or the Siege list which allows for alot of armour! :D

Hicks
11-06-2011, 01:19
Space Marines are Space Marines and in this case, I agree that the SM dex could fit for Iron Warriors (if you don't mind loosing Obliterators).

Seriously, as long as it's vaguely WYSIWYG and not done to gain an advantage I think it's cool.

Take me, I always wanted to field an all Terminator army, but when GKs came out I was so disgusted by the cheeze that I sold mine. Now I'm sloooooooooowly building an all terminator force with Space Wolves miniatures because I think they look ace and I love their background... only I'll be using the DA codex for the Deathwing rules (oh the heresy!). My friends don't have a problem with it and I'll be able to use my favorite minis!

Gloryseeker
11-06-2011, 11:16
Yea you could do it if you opponent doesnt mind. However i just feel that if you are using chaos marines you should use their codex. Im starting a new DE army could i just use my chaos marine and use the DE codex because its bette,r i could bit would be a bit silly and pointless.

Lunk
11-06-2011, 12:59
@Glory Seeker, while I see the point you are trying to make, you are mixing apples and oranges, while the original poster is mixing red delicious apples and granny smith apples. Marines are still in power armor, predators and rhinos are still predators and rhinos.

Draconis
11-06-2011, 16:39
There shouldnt be any problems playing a counts as army. When Chaos gets as many diversified codexes as loyalist marines do, then people will stop doing so. Most people that have problems with it dont seem to understand that there is 1 chaos marine dex, and 4 different current codexes for loyalist marines and tons of others that are 4th ed or older. Of course the loyalist ones will represent other space marine armies better.

Kevlar
11-06-2011, 19:08
There shouldnt be any problems playing a counts as army. When Chaos gets as many diversified codexes as loyalist marines do, then people will stop doing so. Most people that have problems with it dont seem to understand that there is 1 chaos marine dex, and 4 different current codexes for loyalist marines and tons of others that are 4th ed or older. Of course the loyalist ones will represent other space marine armies better.

Chaos should never have been split into two books. Demons in 40k are dumb. (So are demons in fantasy IMHO). They could have expanded the Chaos dex into a couple of "chapters" and made one chapter more demon heavy while still allowing all flavors of Chaos to have marked demons. What they did, I guess to sell more demon models in 40k was silly, totally against the fluff, and really hurt Chaos Space marines.

Ghorhammer
11-06-2011, 20:24
this entire discussion that goes back to games workshop's cardinal rule, that the Space Marines will be the best force out there and all other armies exist only to be neglected and defeated.

They CSM codex hit stores at the waning twilight of 4th edition, and all one has to do is look at it to know that it was rushed to get it out before the switch. The purpose of this is that in the 5 grand tournaments leading up to the change from 4 to 5, 3 of the winners played CSM. Additionally CSMs won a majority of smaller tournaments. The powers that be took notice, CSM were beating the beloved Space Marines, and it could not be allowed. So the codex was rushed into production before the rules change and specifically designed to limit the virility of the army compared to things that were to come. CSM players everywhere are being punished because their army enjoyed a period of superiority over Loyalist Space Marines, which was actually brought on by the same issue that currently leads Space Marine players to perform poorly as a whole in trournaments and other games. Space Marine player are lazy because they're used to having the best stuff. They don't have to play as well to win, the can make horrific tactical errors and still come out on top. You will also notice that the equivalent troops for CSM tend to cost more dollar wise than thier loyalist counterparts. Box of Space Marine Terminators $40.00, box of Chaos Space Marine Terminators $55.00, and there's more plastic in the Loyalist box.

GW plays favorites, stop complaining, its a fact of life.

Freman Bloodglaive
11-06-2011, 23:30
I guess I now know why this is dubbed Whineseer.

Ghorhammer
11-06-2011, 23:43
Says the dedicated Space Marine only player