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Lord_Squinty
08-06-2011, 18:50
Hi all,

Getting back into Warmaster after about a 5 year break.

There seems to be some debate between us as to whether units in a brigade fight combat as individual units or as a brigade?

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad286/lord_squinty/Warmaster/Wmaster1.jpg

Would Brigade 1 fight as a brigade against brigade 2?
Or would Unit A fight Unit E, and Unit B fight Unit F etc?

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad286/lord_squinty/Warmaster/Wmaster2.jpg

What happens if you fight this combat?
From my reading - unit C could fight Units F or G and lend support, but not pursue?

All help appreciated.

Squinty

Geep
09-06-2011, 10:50
Brigades are never anything more than a convenient way to issue orders, and even then it should be remembered that the individual units in the brigade move 1 at a time, following he normal rules, and (unless they charge into combat) must end touching another unit in the brigade. This is important to remember for all sorts of situations (usually when engaging in combat).

In your examples:

Example 1: Unit A can fight either unit E or Unit F (as the corners touch it's a valid target- and not a bad choice if you want to cause maximum casualties), Unit B can attack E, F or G, etc.

Example 2: Unit C can fight Units F or G, and the second rank of stands will give support as normal. In this case it can pursue, as corner contact is enough to mean it is actually engaged.
If Unit G was not there then Unit D could not attack, support or pursue (or be pushed back).

If the units were lined up in rows:

BBB
AAA
GGG

A and G can attack each other and B can lend support (being moved as a brigade doesn't hinder or help this- it's only positioning during combat that matters).
If unit G is pushed back A can pursue but not B.
If unit A is pushed back unit B can opt to give ground (with units A and B having a chance to become confused) or hold (leading to Unit A being wiped out).

Edit: Although units always fight individually, remember that combat results are combined for all units engaged (so in Example 2, thanks to Unit C, the combat results of the entire combat are used to determine who wins). If unit F weren't there it would be worked out as 2 separate combats, each with their own combat resolution (meaning the nice neat brigade shape is unlikely to last long).

fracas
09-06-2011, 11:26
So one unit cannot fight two units simultaneously
And two units against one also does so in sequence?

Geep
09-06-2011, 12:26
So one unit cannot fight two units simultaneously
And two units against one also does so in sequence?
Not quite sure what you mean here Fracas

Combat results are worked out by everyone engaged in a massed combat, and the final win/loss result applied to all units from whatever side they're on. Being formed up as a brigade makes no difference to this- the only consideration is the units with at least one stand in base contact (corners count).

To follow through a combat round, we'll go with Example 2 and assume A, B, C and D are all Empire Halberdiers (3 attacks, 3 hits, 6+ save), and E, F and H are Goblin units (2 attacks, 3 hits, no save). The Empire halberdiers got the charge over open terrain (+1A per stand).

Stands from units A, B and C all roll to attack Unit F, for maximum casualties. 12 attacks, 6 hits, no saves- 2 stands removed. Stand of D can only attack H. 4 attacks, 2 hits, no saves- 2 hits to carry over.
The goblins also attack- E and F vs B and H vs C, scoring 2 hits and 1 hit respectively. No casualties.
All units in the combat have now made their attacks- Empire has 4 supporting units, Goblins have 2. Empire scored 8 hits, goblins scored 3. Empire wins by 7, pushing the goblins back 3cm each (7 difference/3 units, round up).

If, as the combat goes on, unit H is wiped out but E and F remain, unit D can make an 'Advance' move, possibly using it to flank the remaining goblins, or it can fall back or maybe reach a different enemy. If it chooses not to move at all it cannot move forward with any other pursuit moves made by the friendly units it is touching (unless, through circumstance, it ends up in contact with another conveniently placed enemy unit). It also cannot delay its 'Advance' move.

Does that help explain it? Or did I make it more complicated?

In short what I'm trying to get across is: Combats are worked out en masse, brigade formation (being in BtB contact with a stand from another friendly unit) doesn't mean anything (except for support, or when that unit is in BtB contact with the same enemy you're combating).

Hmm... ok, hopefully I won't make this any worse an explanation, but let's show another combat where the neat brigade formation of A, B, C and D means nothing.
Again Units A, B, C and D are Empire Halberdiers, while units E and H are Stegadons (10 attacks, 10 hits, 4+ save). Units F and G aren't there at all.
The Stegadons both charged over open ground, gaining +2 attacks each (charging+ monster charging).
F rolls to attack B- 12 attacks, 6 hits, 1 saved- 1 stand lost and 2 hits carried over. H rolls... and fluffs it. 12 attacks, 2 hit, 1 save- 1 hit carried over.
A and B attack back vs E- Stegadons cause terror (-1 attack), so 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1 saved- 1 hit carried over.
C and D vs H- 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1 save- 1 hit carried over.

Combat resolution- Units A and B lost by 4 in hits, but have 2 supporting stands. Nothing combat related links them to units C and D, so that is all for this particular combat- they are both pushed back 1cm (2 difference/ 2 units).
C and D equaled their stegadon for hits, and have two supporting stands- they win, pushing the stegadon back 2cm (2 difference/ 1 unit).
The brigade formation was not enough to make this into a massed combat, and now the brigade formation will probably be broken up in later pursuit moves.

Edit: And hopefully final point,
If Stegadon H didn't exist in the above example, the front stand of Unit C would have been able to lend support to the combat with Stegadon E (stands in base to base contact can't lend support, however). Still, this would have still seen Stegadon E win by 1, push A and B back by 1cm (1/2, rounded up) while C and D would have remained stationary (as support is not enough to be part of that combat).

Lord_Squinty
09-06-2011, 15:21
Geep - you're a gent!

Many thanks

fracas
11-06-2011, 14:13
got it as well


thanks :)