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thanoson
12-06-2011, 19:04
What would you do to fix the following armies?: Chaos Space Marines, Eldar, CHaos Daemons and Tyranids.

With the new codex creep that's been coming lately, these armies seem kinda lackluster and dated. What's a few things you would do to improve them?

Mannimarco
12-06-2011, 19:15
Tyranids: arnt exactly an old army thats struggling because of codex creep. Not that they are an uber powered top tier dex but they're not as bad as teh internets likes to make out they are.

Daemons: should have never been removed from the CSM dex in the first place.

CSM: More, bigger, better, more options, cheaper and for the loyalist dexes to stop getting stuff that we had that was stripped away.

Ghorhammer
12-06-2011, 19:54
I've noticed that as well, that when CSM get something that works well, it gets ganked and then the Loyalist Marines have it in their new codex.

Next there will be Loyalst Defilers.

And I miss veteran skills.

Nurgling Chieftain
12-06-2011, 21:08
The best way to fix Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines is to make them one codex instead of two. XD

Vaiuri
12-06-2011, 21:35
I just switched back to my old Nid and Eldar armies after jumping on the SM waggon for a bit, I'm having a whale of a time!

Oakwolf
12-06-2011, 21:58
I wouldn't mind having both codex (CSM / Daemons) into one, but i'd still like it possible to play a demonic legion without mortal forces.

Messiah
12-06-2011, 22:02
CSM: Have marines as elites, and cultists and mutants as troops. As it should be. As it is in Dawn of War.

Monospot
12-06-2011, 22:04
'Nids - give 'stealers back flesh hooks, and give us a &*%%& cult list (sorry, old player rant)
CSM - 200 page "Tome of Chaos" with all legion specific stuff, daemons, and LoTD/renegades in one place
Eldar - point tweaks, and a vehicle that can be assaulted out of (thinking Venom-like for 5-man squads of Aspects). Make Swooping Hawks a bit better.

sigur
13-06-2011, 01:11
CSM: Have marines as elites, and cultists and mutants as troops. As it should be. As it is in Dawn of War.

*cringes heftily*

Eldar are fine, Tyranids are fine. CSM I didn't bother much with to be honest. I still haven't even really read their latest codex.

triplare
13-06-2011, 02:52
Tyranids; reconfigure their special deployment abilities:
Chameleonic Skin = Allows assault turn it's deployed.
Hive Commander = No stacking +1, but allow 2 outflanking troops.
Subterranean Assault = Treat as walk-ons as entering from a table edge.
Mycetic Spore = Allow IC to join a non-MC unit for deployment.
Flesh Hooks/Frag Spines = Options for Warriors, Shrikes, Genestealers, Ymgarls, Tyranid Prime

Oakwolf
13-06-2011, 05:02
CSM: Have marines as elites, and cultists and mutants as troops. As it should be. As it is in Dawn of War.

I also believe that this will happen. The cultist unit was seen in both computer games, so i wouldn't be surprised to see them become part of the tabletop again.

Charistoph
13-06-2011, 05:08
OP: Interesting that you left out the 4 oldest codecies and included a relatively recent 5th Edition codex.

Chaos Space Marines: Far to detailed and in depth to really say much (see the several threads for more details), but my basics are: More variety of Gifts of Chaos for both Characters, Daemons, and possibly Possessed; Cult Marines either made as a Super-Mark or made Elite "Wolf Guard" in terms of available equipment (i.e. TDA, Bikes, Jump Packs); Marks removed from Icons and permanent on unit (or alternatively, have both, but the Icon version WAY cheaper); Daemons can be Marked; 2 Wound Characters restored (even better if they come 2 per HQ slot); Possessed either regain purchasable powers, or become another upgrade to access Chaos Gifts; more daemon engines; just as a start.

Chaos Daemons: More Undivided options; More Daemon Engines; Marks for Daemon Engines and Princes; Option to deploy normally instead of having to Deep Strike; Upgrade option to Assault on Deep Strike (can even be restricted to an Icon upgrade).

Eldar and Tyranid: I'm not aware of most of the Eldar & Tyranid's failings, so I'll leave those to other people.

FarseerBeilTan
13-06-2011, 09:25
What would you do to fix the following armies?: Chaos Space Marines, Eldar, CHaos Daemons and Tyranids.

Tyranids were re-done in 2010? I dont see real out of date armies like Tau or Sisters Of Battle. However as much as there not as overpowered as new codexs these armies can still work very well

Isfimbur
13-06-2011, 10:34
The best way to fix Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines is to make them one codex instead of two. XD

I for one do not think this is a good idea. The CSM dex would be to big for this to be a viable option. Daemons should stand on their own if you ask me.


CSM: Have marines as elites, and cultists and mutants as troops. As it should be. As it is in Dawn of War.

This is a good idea. Most things that seperate CSM from the regular Marines is a good idea.


Marks for Daemon Engines and Princes

It is possible to give your prince a mark.

Grimtuff
13-06-2011, 10:46
This is a good idea. Most things that seperate CSM from the regular Marines is a good idea.

No, it's not. And you think Tyranids have a clogged up Elites section now? Just imagine what the CSM one would look like under this structure. You will have Chosen, Termies, PMs, TS, NMs, Zerks, Standard CSM, Dreadnoughts (maybe) and Possessed? This isn't even taking into account any new units that may appear.

By all means have some method of making an army without CSM in it, but moving the power armoured elements to the Elites section is not it.

Isfimbur
13-06-2011, 10:52
No, it's not. And you think Tyranids have a clogged up Elites section now? Just imagine what the CSM one would look like under this structure. You will have Chosen, Termies, PMs, TS, NMs, Zerks, Standard CSM, Dreadnoughts (maybe) and Possessed? This isn't even taking into account any new units that may appear.

By all means have some method of making an army without CSM in it, but moving the power armoured elements to the Elites section is not it.

True true, perhaps this should not be the standard layout of the CSM book. But more of a "pick a special character to make cultist troops and marines elite" type of thing. Or even just put another troop choice in there a long with the marines.

moonwhisper
13-06-2011, 18:33
Eldar: see my sig (but it's still far from being enough)

Chaos daemons:
- no more randomly splitted forces. for first turn, only 2 troops and 1 HQ may come in. the rest kept in reserve.
- much more reserve buffs. re-roll reserve rolls, more homers-things. possibly something like DE portal
- more daemon engines, i.e. more heavy choices.
- change screamers. bulkier than furies, with a movement attack like DE jetbikes.
- The Changeling as a herald instead of just a squad leader
These are my first thoughts when I look at their codex, but I have no actual gameplay expierence with them so I can't tell what are their flaws. Other ideas I have are just personal whishlist and not army improvements (I'd like to see more melting with mechanicals and cybernetics. It would stand them from the fantasy range.)

Tyranids: they're quite new, so there is not much work needed, just local adjustments: Pyrovores, Lictors, Carnifexes.

Chaos Marines: yes, keep them splitted from daemons, but keep the summoned daemons and give them a minimum of customization and options (marks, flying, shooting...)
I didn't like the 3rd ed Great Tome of Chaos with hundreds of mini-lists. It seemed just messy IMO. (No, I'm not a Chaos player :p) Eldar had their 5 Craftworld sub-lists, and now GW managed to make the main codex flexible enough to allow people play themed armies.
Should GW keep the trend with SC, you could make some Legion-specific SC that makes changes in your FOC slots. (Night Lord character allowing Raptors as Troops, maybe? )
Apart from that, I would say more FA choices (Hell talon may get in), more possessed engines, possessed marines greatly buffed, chaos spawns too, and... well, just some new units. They should stand more from loyalist marines. Despite many differences, they still look like just a evil, spiked version of the vanilla codex. They should have their own characteristic gameplay. That's just how I feel, of course.

EDIT: and Cultists and Mutants squads as troops, but keep the other marines as troops too. And for chaos daemons, chariots may get in without heralds needed.

RandomThoughts
14-06-2011, 01:48
Eldar:

1. Improve troops:
In my opinion, all Eldar troops need to improve. Dire Avengers should get more damage output, Guardian Defenders need more range and perhaps more heavy weapons per models, Jetbikes need hit and run and probably a points drop, Rangers suffer from a) general sniper nerfs (cover, invulnerable saves, irrelevance of pinning) and they are still expansive for what they do.

2. Ranged AT:
Or rather: any reliable AT besides Fire Dragons. Improved Brightlances (S10 AP1) could work, Guardian squads with 1 heavy weapon for each 5 Guardians could be another solution.

3. Assault Vehicles:

4. Individual unit buffs:
Furious Charge and automatic Warcry for Banshees, Stealth and "Flank out of Terrain" for Scorpions, Crack Shot affects whole unit (Reapers and Dragons), reliable secondary jump for Warp Spiders, get rid of Wraithsight, 2+/4++ saves for all Wraithcreatures and monstrous creature status for Wraithguard, -10 points price drop for Vypers, cheaper upgrades, no more open-topped, and so on.

Ghorhammer
14-06-2011, 02:18
So basically you would like every possible weakness in the army removed.

althathir
14-06-2011, 03:16
CSM - more options, I don't think the current power level is as much of problem as the fact that GW pushed it too far towards regenades, instead of the legions. I expect them to correct this and soon people have proved with the hh books that they want the old legions. I really think that they should be unlock based on marks or upgrades rather than buying a SC, it makes sense with alot of armies but not chaos. for example Dark Angels only have two companies that make up the deathwing, or ravenwing (iirc), where as a chaos legion has a more distinct style.

eldar - I think we're really close to being good, its just we have so many fractions and I think its a hard to give everybody what they want. Alot of people want foot armies and t3 4+ save armies struggle now, and others want a more glass hammer feel. Personally if wave serpents got a little cheaper, and hawks became a second anti-tank unit that was fairly cost effective, and hornets became codex I would be happy. Granted I have a lot of experience with them so I don't know if I reflect the average eldar player now, and most of the tournies I've played in don't vastly reward tabling the opponent which is a factor.

nids - A new faq, it makes no sense that a prime can't get in a spore pod with warriors. That faq was basically a nerf stick, that said they can be pretty tough. They're better than most of the the 4th books (eldar have always been good againist nids), its just their a tough army to learn and that translates into bad on the internet.

Daemons - its not that they're bad as much as their deployment makes them depend more on luck than other fractions. This makes them a fun pick up game army, and a force thats tough to win a tournament with. That last part makes them suck on the internet. I think moon whisper is close to right, but I think I would make it so you get the 2 troops and hq (in your deployment zone), and then the rest follows the daemon deployment (split into half etc). You would start out with a bit more, but some of it would be further from the opponent.

Mannimarco
14-06-2011, 03:23
Just thinking for daemons, it could be interesting allowing them to purchase something like a cult who bring them on through something like a webway portal.

althathir
14-06-2011, 03:27
That would be cool, maybe make the cults have marks, and only help the daemons that worship that god, or just provide a buff IDK just like concept.

Mannimarco
14-06-2011, 03:35
That would be cool, maybe make the cults have marks, and only help the daemons that worship that god, or just provide a buff IDK just like concept.

Not sure about really giving them to many options or special rules as I wouldnt want the focus to be taken away from the daemons themselves although it might be cool allowing you to purchase an upgrade to make them "possessed cultists" with the table from the CSM possessed.

Might have to take that one over to rules development and see what we can do with it.

althathir
14-06-2011, 03:41
I don't want the marks to benefit the cultists much either, I just like the ideal of for example nurgle cultists providing a bonus for those daemons (maybe something like if they would deploy within 6 inches of that unit before scatter +1 to reserves), and they can't mishap just move into the closest legal position.

SaschaKreiger
14-06-2011, 04:50
Having Daemon and Marine codexes is fine, but they should have allies rules. Unfortunately GW decided to stop doing that for unknown reasons. Having codexes for armies intended to be used as allies, or possibly on their own is a great idea. It's fluffy and adds grater possibilities. I'd like to see a Kroot codex with allies rules for 'Guard and Tau.

moonwhisper
14-06-2011, 10:48
An Ally chart and rules would be attributable to the core Rulebook rather than to an individual codex. They did it in the new WHFB edition, but despite being a fan of alliances ("kill everybody" attitude is just so boring), I think that 40k is not suited to it as much as fantasy, where the distinction between Order and Desorder (if not Good and Evil) is more neat.
Just a random thought: Chaos marines have a Summoned Daemons section... what about Daemons having a Mortal Summoners one?

Wishing
14-06-2011, 12:49
To answer the question "how would you fix this codex?", you'd have to define in which way it is broken first. From the context, the OP seems to be thinking of fixing in terms of competitive power, whereas many posters have said things like "make CSM and CD into one book", which is a question of style, not power.

I don't have any opinion on power level myself, but I do have strong opinions about Chaos and their codexes. The problem is that my opinions run contrary to contemporary GW design philosophy. I think that there should be a big Chaos book that contains three lists - Marines, Daemons and Thralls/Renegades/Cultists - that can be mixed and matched following defined rules. For example, that you can pick one list as your main list and then a second one as your secondary list. Your HQ choices and at least half of your troops/elites would be from the main list, but you could supplement with choices from the secondary list. So you could have a Marine list with allies Daemons, or a Marine list with allied Cultists, or a Cultist list with allied Daemons, etc. Daemons should definitely lose their stupid forced deployment rules, and have the deep striking reserves as an option, not a mandatory rule.

RandomThoughts
15-06-2011, 22:22
So basically you would like every possible weakness in the army removed.

I started playing Warmachine recently and it's refreshing when every unit is worth their points on the battlefield. Currently there are very few Eldar units taken with any frequency. DAVU-Serpents have become the troop choice of many player's choice, Fire Dragons as only effective AT unit dominate many lists, there are not many options available for players that don't want hurt themselves with underperforming units.
Eldar already have built-in weaknesses: There are few of them (elite army) and they are an army of specialists that need to bring the exact right tools for each job. That alsone should be enough, but we also suffer from the fact that 9 out of 10 tools in our toolbox are blunt or broken.

Jaded Patriot
15-06-2011, 22:39
Eldar already have built-in weaknesses: There are few of them (elite army) and they are an army of specialists that need to bring the exact right tools for each job. That alsone should be enough, but we also suffer from the fact that 9 out of 10 tools in our toolbox are blunt or broken.

Yeah, this is why I've resorted to using a Revenant Titan. Solves all problems.

ALL PROBLEMS. :D

Ghorhammer
15-06-2011, 23:03
I started playing Warmachine recently and it's refreshing when every unit is worth their points on the battlefield. Currently there are very few Eldar units taken with any frequency. DAVU-Serpents have become the troop choice of many player's choice, Fire Dragons as only effective AT unit dominate many lists, there are not many options available for players that don't want hurt themselves with underperforming units.
Eldar already have built-in weaknesses: There are few of them (elite army) and they are an army of specialists that need to bring the exact right tools for each job. That alsone should be enough, but we also suffer from the fact that 9 out of 10 tools in our toolbox are blunt or broken.

You're just a whiner.

There's nothing wrong with the Eldar codex. Yes many of your units are over-specialized, however, your specialized units are very good at what they do. And they're not overpriced by any means.

You wanna talk about overpriced, look at Necrons, they're basically paying 3 points extra per model for Space Marines, with a low initiative and We'll Be Back instead of Will Know No Fear. In addition Necrons have only a single vehicle choice, the Monolith, which granted is hard to kill but all it's weapons are short ranged, and its slow, so its easy to outmaneuver.
In addition to that the army has a built in KILL SWITCH, kill enough Warriors and they just automatically loose.

Eldar have Guardians and Dire Avengers which are good all around troops.
Fire Dragons are arguably the best anti-tank troops in the game
Striking Scorpions and Howling Banshees are both excellent close-combat specialists.
A squad of Dark Reapers can deny position to an entire enemy force if you put them in the right place
And the Eldar have some of the best vehicles in the game, sure they're not too sturdy, but how many other armies have a weapon thats as devastating as a Prism Cannon that can MOVE AND SHOOT and then MOVE AGAIN provided you give it the right upgrade. I can't tell you how many times I've had one of them hop out form behind a building, snipe out one of my Land Raiders and then hide again before I have an opportunity to return fire on it.

The reason many players fail with eldar is because they lack the necessary patience to play the force properly. Its not a bumb rush and smack down powerhouse, its delicate and precise. You have to wait for your opponent to create an opportunity for you, which means you might have to hide for the first couple of turns, let him spread his army out trying to take objectives, or use one of your units as a lure, to draw him out, then Divide and Conquer.

Don't blame your codex because you can't make tactically sound decisions.

Dorn's Arrow
15-06-2011, 23:22
The Eldar codex is pretty bad. The spirit of what RandomThoughts posted is actually a pretty good approach to fixing them although stuff like wanting S10 AP1 lances as a standard bit of kit is obviously way beyond the pale.

Gir
16-06-2011, 05:49
Chaos Space Marine dex is fine
Chaos Daemon dex is fine
Eldar dex is fine
Tyranids just need a couple of pts tweaks.

Scribe of Khorne
16-06-2011, 06:56
Chaos Space Marine dex is fine
Chaos Daemon dex is fine
Eldar dex is fine
Tyranids just need a couple of pts tweaks.

lol! (And yes, there was a true outburst of laughter here)

If you think CSM are 'fine' then Nids sure as **** are 'fine' as well.

The next CSM book should have the following next time around.

Actual Marks, and the ability to apply them across an entire army = Cult Armies and the Legions that are based on them return.

Cultists, with stuff like Henchmen in the GK book, I would be pretty shocked if this didnt happen.

Princes, will look like the entry in Daemons, maybe better to sell the plastic kit...

There will be a lot of re-balancing going on as entries are bought in line with the current design. Havocs (new plastic kit), Preds, Bikers, will fall in this category.

Units will be tweaked, to make the rules actually fun. Possessed (leading to sales of the plastic kit) Dreads (a new plastic kit here I am sure) and maybe Chosen will be in this grouping.

New units will be added to each FOC slot, to allow for more diverse cult armies, and to increase the potential for different builds.

SC's will unlock army builds, as is done in nearly all 5th edition books.

The Legions will be the focus of the book, with a nod to Renegades and Cultists to sell SM and IG kits...

Do all of that, and I for one would be happy. :p

Inquisitor Engel
16-06-2011, 07:12
SC's will unlock army builds, as is done in nearly all 5th edition books.


Wouldn't that be the best way to do a Legion list?

Abaddon for Black Legion
Typhus for Death Guard
Ahriman for Thousand Sons
Tso Sahaal or Talos for Night Lords
A Nameless Captain for Alpha Legion
Lucius Emperor's Children
Kharn for World Eaters
Honsou for Iron Warriors
Erebus or Kor Phaeron for the Word Bearers
Huron Blackheart for Renegades

moonwhisper
16-06-2011, 13:29
@Ghorhammer: Firstly, I have to say that I don't have much gameplay expierence with Eldars, and I know that good players may always manage to achieve good results regardless of the army. I don't expect Eldars to be an easy army. Glasshammer and unit synergy are part of the race's character. Despite all this, I still think they need some reworking.



You wanna talk about overpriced, look at Necrons, they're basically paying 3 points extra per model for Space Marines, with a low initiative and We'll Be Back instead of Will Know No Fear. In addition Necrons have only a single vehicle choice, the Monolith, which granted is hard to kill but all it's weapons are short ranged, and its slow, so its easy to outmaneuver.
In addition to that the army has a built in KILL SWITCH, kill enough Warriors and they just automatically loose.


Nobody said Eldars were worse than Necrons, who still have 3rd ed. codex. As a side note, Crons will probably be the next army (see rumours forum), and then they will get a power boost as everyone else.



Eldar have Guardians and Dire Avengers which are good all around troops.
Fire Dragons are arguably the best anti-tank troops in the game
Striking Scorpions and Howling Banshees are both excellent close-combat specialists.
A squad of Dark Reapers can deny position to an entire enemy force if you put them in the right place


You're kidding, right?
Dire Avengers are a very good troop, but Guardians are awful. They have an almost useless 12" range weapons which is like a bolter without long range fire mode (they may assault but... they're not that good in combat either) and cost too much to be a GEQ unit. They may take an heavy weapon, but they only have BS3.
Firedragons are very good indeed, they seem to be a must-have.
Scorpions and Banshees are good, yes, but I wouldn't say excellent, especially when compared to other combat specialists. Banshees are 16 pts and have power weapons. Grey Knights cost just 4 pts more, have power swords too (nemesis are force swords) and then... just look at all other things they get in addition.
Dark reapers... they're 35 pts each. And they have to compete with other HS slots. 105 pts for 6 S5 AP3 shots with BS4. There's not much to say.



And the Eldar have some of the best vehicles in the game, sure they're not too sturdy, but how many other armies have a weapon thats as devastating as a Prism Cannon that can MOVE AND SHOOT and then MOVE AGAIN provided you give it the right upgrade. I can't tell you how many times I've had one of them hop out form behind a building, snipe out one of my Land Raiders and then hide again before I have an opportunity to return fire on it.

True. Actually, that's why other HS choices can't compete with them. And still they're only BS3.



The reason many players fail with eldar is because they lack the necessary patience to play the force properly. Its not a bumb rush and smack down powerhouse, its delicate and precise. You have to wait for your opponent to create an opportunity for you, which means you might have to hide for the first couple of turns, let him spread his army out trying to take objectives, or use one of your units as a lure, to draw him out, then Divide and Conquer.
Don't blame your codex because you can't make tactically sound decisions.
Eldars are meant to be played carefully, rewarding good playing and not forgieving tactical errors. Dark Eldars are like that, if not even more glasshammer. But still they are more powerful than their craftworld cousins.
For example, dark lances cost 25 pts for kabalite, 5 pts less than guardian bright lances, despite the DE being BS4. Warriors themselves are 9pts each and have better stats, long range poisoned rifles, may take more heavy and special weapons, and benefit from a very good army-wide special rule which gives them FNP... :wtf:

This does not means that Eldars cannot win and that they should get 3+ saves or other "stupid", unfluffy suggestions. But with the power creep newer armies are getting, they definetly need a little boost.

Cheeslord
16-06-2011, 13:42
Well, of that list I only play Daemons. My thoughts:

Necessary fixes:
Option to take mortal cultists who could deploy normally and have icons (way around deepstrike gamble/Massive Terrain Dependency)

Beasts of Nurgle. Either make into Beast unit type or 3+ poison
Furies: points reduction, OR a way to make them scoring.
Epedemius: some limitation (too powerful in large games) - maybe limited radius of effect.
Skulltaker:- minor power reduction. Maybe Rending/ID 5+, or Rending 4+ but only ID on 6.
Masque: Power increase. Either 2++ or IC status.

Would also like (more wishlisting than essential):

A Slaaneshi unique Greater Daemon
Enough Chaos Undivided options to field an army (Greater daemon, troops(maybe GD makes Furies troops?))
Enough Soul Forge options to field a Soul Forge army
Psychic defences (they are meant to prey on psykers!)
Some unique Non-Alligned greater daemons. like the horrible, horrible gribblies that can come out of the warp and get You. Like Cthulu or that tentacly thing from The Colour of Magic. Or the Psykennuin from Rogue Trader. Or Satan. Or that clown from Spawn...the potential list is endless.

Also: why no option to fix Necrons? Do you think they're not broken!

Mark.

moonwhisper
16-06-2011, 13:51
And there's another thing I'd like to say about Eldars. Even if they were OK, even if there were nothing wrong with them, I still would give them buffs because of fluff. They should have an highly advanced technology, but I don't see it in game terms. Ork shootas are better weapons than shurikens... so sad. And missile launchers still have the same krak missiles as the imperials. So they need better profiles. Cost would follow accordingly, of course. I would rather have a 30 pts Shuriken cannon with adequate profile rather than a 5 pts heavy bolter. They're an elite army, right? So high stats and high cost. I want them to have better weapons, no matter the cost (but not overpriced of course), for the sake of being better. It's a matter of principle.

Scribe of Khorne
16-06-2011, 22:03
Wouldn't that be the best way to do a Legion list?

Abaddon for Black Legion
Typhus for Death Guard
Ahriman for Thousand Sons
Tso Sahaal or Talos for Night Lords
A Nameless Captain for Alpha Legion
Lucius Emperor's Children
Kharn for World Eaters
Honsou for Iron Warriors
Erebus or Kor Phaeron for the Word Bearers
Huron Blackheart for Renegades

Yep, my thinking exactly. Each SC has a special rule applied to X unit, and we are off to the races.

Charistoph
16-06-2011, 22:07
Yep, my thinking exactly. Each SC has a special rule applied to X unit, and we are off to the races.

The only reason I find using SCs for this as being good is that it is the current model being used by GW. Otherwise, in many cases it is a less-effective solution.

RandomThoughts
16-06-2011, 23:06
You're just a whiner. [...] Don't blame your codex because you can't make tactically sound decisions.

Sorry, but that is way beyond the line. I don't take kindly to personal insults. With those two lines alone, you have invalidated everything else you posted in between in my opinion. (Not that others don't disagree with that, either)

@ Moonshisper: I agree with everything you just said. Eldar are supposed to have the high tech to make other people weep with envy - and we're willing to pa the points for it (we're not asking for free giveaways), as long as the cost is justified.

Nurgling Chieftain
16-06-2011, 23:35
Seems to me to be kind of a shame that they banned him but left that line there for you to read.

Scribe of Khorne
17-06-2011, 02:27
The only reason I find using SCs for this as being good is that it is the current model being used by GW. Otherwise, in many cases it is a less-effective solution.

Probably true, but I think it makes it easier on GW to balance things.

Chapters Unwritten
17-06-2011, 02:40
The best way to fix Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines is to make them one codex instead of two. XDI don't mind them separate, but I would definitely think it would be better if they were mashed into one where you could do a mixed army of both (perhaps with certain special characters).

SgtTaters
17-06-2011, 02:44
What would you do to fix the following armies?: Chaos Space Marines, Eldar, CHaos Daemons and Tyranids.

With the new codex creep that's been coming lately, these armies seem kinda lackluster and dated. What's a few things you would do to improve them?
short answer:
Chaos- bring back the 3e codex, retool points and stats.
Eldar- expand options of leaders and characters, and for the love of god a lance weapon is almost always worse than a lascannon, price it accordingly.
Tyranids- ... just give them the 4e codex back, adjust points

Longer:

CHAOS- If we must follow 5e trends, special characters unlock legions like in the ultramarine codex. Legion marines, not cult marines but still distinct can use something like Chapter Tactics to distinguish themselves.
For example...
Black Legion- stubborn
Alpha Legion- infiltrate
Night Lords- stealth
Iron Warriors- servo-harness on champions





Eldar- great codex layout so far but just needs tweaks and more units. ex: Pathfinders, Court of Young King, Warlock Councils, Venerable Wraithlords, Wildriders are all viable to be their own distinct units. Aspect Powers should be built into squad and not require an Exarch babysitter. Autarch/Exarch should have more options to become a killing machine.

Gir
17-06-2011, 04:30
lol! (And yes, there was a true outburst of laughter here)

If you think CSM are 'fine' then Nids sure as **** are 'fine' as well.

The next CSM book should have the following next time around.

Actual Marks, and the ability to apply them across an entire army = Cult Armies and the Legions that are based on them return.

Cultists, with stuff like Henchmen in the GK book, I would be pretty shocked if this didnt happen.

Princes, will look like the entry in Daemons, maybe better to sell the plastic kit...

There will be a lot of re-balancing going on as entries are bought in line with the current design. Havocs (new plastic kit), Preds, Bikers, will fall in this category.

Units will be tweaked, to make the rules actually fun. Possessed (leading to sales of the plastic kit) Dreads (a new plastic kit here I am sure) and maybe Chosen will be in this grouping.

New units will be added to each FOC slot, to allow for more diverse cult armies, and to increase the potential for different builds.

SC's will unlock army builds, as is done in nearly all 5th edition books.

The Legions will be the focus of the book, with a nod to Renegades and Cultists to sell SM and IG kits...

Do all of that, and I for one would be happy. :p

You're not helping the chaos player stereotype...

Wyrmwood
17-06-2011, 11:30
Yep, my thinking exactly. Each SC has a special rule applied to X unit, and we are off to the races.


Wouldn't that be the best way to do a Legion list?

Abaddon for Black Legion
Typhus for Death Guard
Ahriman for Thousand Sons
Tso Sahaal or Talos for Night Lords
A Nameless Captain for Alpha Legion
Lucius Emperor's Children
Kharn for World Eaters
Honsou for Iron Warriors
Erebus or Kor Phaeron for the Word Bearers
Huron Blackheart for Renegades

See, I would really dislike this. It's vexing enough that a pre-built special character must be taken in your army for the style and list that you want, nevermind almost turning said character into a pariah. I feel it would be much easier/flexible to simply allow 'Chaos Lord' to take something akin to a Legion mark; by all means, include the special characters also, but having the archetype SC leading Legion Z hurts the IP, in my opinion, turning them into stereotypes.

The 'Mark of the Legion' could be taken instead of a 'Mark of Chaos', for the primary headquarters choice, but would unlock certain tech trees and builds, and confer the benefit of the corresponding Mark of Chaos onto himself, those of a unit he joins.

For the purposes of an example I'll just give one unlocked unit/special rule, Chaos Lord Gorshin takes the 'Mark of the World Eater', and has unlocked Juggernauts as Fast Attack, and his army gains 'Furious Charge'. His Mark still doubles as the Mark of Khorne, for it is a World Eater mark, but unlocks Legion specific forces to play with as well. Obviously, some drawback - maybe something akin to the Dreadnought's 'Fire Frenzy' rule could be introduced. *shrugs*

As an 'Undivided' example, Chaos Lord Julius takes 'Mark of the Hydra', and has unlocked Stealth Squads, and his army gains 'Outflank'.

The renegade angle could be taken with any Legion Mark, or simply with a non-Legion 'Mark of Chaos', or with the 'Favour of Huron'. This allows the renegade to take Corsair Squads that benefit from 'Hit and Run' or 'Counter attack' or something, and unlocks... Something less Chaotic.

This leaves the Special Characters as... Special Characters that define your army if you take them through thematics, but aren't a necessity for the Legion/Warband that you want.

Luko
17-06-2011, 12:47
I can really only comment on the csm and daemon dexes...

I agree they should be left seperate...

Now there wouldn't be too much wrong with them if it weren't for the the fact that newer armies have a lot of low cost abilities that are just way too devastating on the chaos dex. A lot of units just need tweaks be it in points cost or abilities. Also a few models need new versions of them. Now that the Gk FAQ has been released, using csm is like a david and goliath situation.

How many competative lists can you build with the csm dex? And how many fluffy list can you make? Not many of either...well you can but you won't have any benefits that actually show the legion/legion units skills that they are renowed for...

Csm need to be scary again as well as fluffy. For example we know there are rubricae terminators (battle for the fang) and we know there are other cult terminators. Do we have rules and models for them? No. Dreads need to be addressed too. Bar the cult troops there are no legion troops or flavour.

Also the summoned daemons need to be fixed to actually represent the power they're representing. Marks, gifts and wargear need to actually represent the chaos powers and be more wide spread too.

Luko

ReveredChaplainDrake
17-06-2011, 13:58
See, I would really dislike this. It's vexing enough that a pre-built special character must be taken in your army for the style and list that you want, nevermind almost turning said character into a pariah.
Kinda' missed what you were referring to. Did you mean pariah as in "social outcast because he can't ride in a Rhino with a squad because that would make 11 guys, so you have to pick whether you'd rather have your 2nd special weapon or a character" or Pariah as in "fundamentally flawed unit that nobody takes because it's a worthless waste of points"?

In regards to the original question:

Chaos Marines:
-multiple tiers of chaos "blessing" (Marine w/ Icon lowest, Cult Marines and Chosen w/ Icons at middle tier, Lord, Sorc & Daemon Prince at highest)
-Marked daemons
-legion rules (somehow)
-standardize the Defiler and Soulgrinder (aesthetically, that always bugged me...)
-legion fluff! (Seriously, Night Lords are mentioned once... in passing... somewhere...)

Chaos Daemons:
-global effect: PotW more dangerous (D3 wounds?)
-reserves bonus
-Icon segregation & appropriate price decrease
-rework all-Deepstrike / first wave second wave possible scramble
-alternatives to Deepstrike deployment (Marbo / Ymgral / Infiltrate / Outflank / pre-game Scout...)
-allow assault off Deep Strike in unique situations (favored numbers, deep strike off Icon w/ matching alignment, unit-specific rules, "once per game" effects...)
-something to make mono-god / limited-god lists more enticing (reserves bonuses?)
-more Daemon Engines
-Greater Daemon = Living Icon and/or reserves bonus to minions
-reserves bonus

Chaos Daemons (meta):
-massive Finecast overhaul
-fix CC versus Vehicles, especially transports; this alone would fix a lot of what is wrong w/ Daemons
-remove Jaws of the World Wolf (i.e. make Nurgle viable again)

Tyranids:
-SitW works on units in vehicles
-Mycetic Spores no longer instant-die to Tank Shock
-Warrior Primes become a brood rather than an IC
-TMC Deathspitters (Tyrant, Fex) to Str7
-Heavy Venom Cannon replaced unilaterally w/ Impaler Cannon
-If Carnifexes were W6, they would be priced appropriately
-Deathleaper = real Lictor, replace "Pheremone Trail" effect with "Hive Commander"
-a unit can declare to deploy via Trygon Tunnel (think super drop pod)
-some kind of "indirect" frag grenades (any unit shot by Barbed Stranglers / Stranglethorns loses cover benefits?)
-Tyrants can take either Hive Guard or Tyrant Guard as a retinue (also, make them an actual retinue)
-Reprice Tyrant & upgrades (Paroxysm is free but Wings are a full Zoanthrope, :wtf:)
-Harpies gain "jink" save

Wyrmwood
17-06-2011, 14:02
Kinda' missed what you were referring to. Did you mean pariah as in "social outcast because he can't ride in a Rhino with a squad because that would make 11 guys, so you have to pick whether you'd rather have your 2nd special weapon or a character" or Pariah as in "fundamentally flawed unit that nobody takes because it's a worthless waste of points"?

As in, "Oh no, not another Vulkan He'Stan/Pedro Kantor army...". The character itself becomes tarnished with an intended gameplay mechanic, because he unlocks the best buffs or whatever. Admittedly, you hear much less of that now.

But my main point was that having to take a pre-built special character with a name change, or not, to unlock what you want, is just pretty boring.

Luko
17-06-2011, 14:19
I'm not a massive fan of the special characters being needed to unlock the army you want to play.

I agree with Wyrmwood, but what do you guys think to some how using the trait system from the old guard codex but instead using marks and prehaps units and gifts/abilities.

That way you can create the army you want to play and unlock the legion/warband specific traits without having to use a special character?

Luko

Dorn's Arrow
17-06-2011, 15:27
I'm not a massive fan of the special characters being needed to unlock the army you want to play.

I agree with Wyrmwood, but what do you guys think to some how using the trait system from the old guard codex but instead using marks and prehaps units and gifts/abilities.

That way you can create the army you want to play and unlock the legion/warband specific traits without having to use a special character?

Luko

The solution is simple - the codex needs to be strong enough that you can feasibly run any army as per its fluff (which the current C: SM book does brilliantly and C: CSM is terrible at) and then the special characters are there for added oomph, with rules which provide both differing gameplay options and the 'extra mile' for doing a specific theme.

This is exactly what's present in C: SM and if so many people on both sides didn't get their knickers in a twist over it then it'd be a perfectly adequate solution.

Luko
17-06-2011, 15:40
Brilliantly? Eh?...Think the Iron Hands may disagree with you? lol

Luko

Mannimarco
17-06-2011, 15:58
Brilliantly? Eh?...Think the Iron Hands may disagree with you? lol

Luko

Iron......Hands.......:confused: Are those the guys who use Codex: Space Wolves so they can get a dreadnought HQ?

Wyrmwood
17-06-2011, 16:03
Iron......Hands.......:confused: Are those the guys who use Codex: Space Wolves so they can get a dreadnought HQ?

I thought it was Codex: Space Marines, to get their Master of the Forge?

Scribe of Khorne
17-06-2011, 16:09
You're not helping the chaos player stereotype...

Why because I found your suggestion that CSM are 'fine' laughable, especially when you think nids are obviously not fine? Please.

If Chaos gets the same treatment as BA, Wolves, or GK, every one of my points are reasonable, as it has a precedent in those books!

Luko
17-06-2011, 16:53
Well i was more refering to the fact that the Iron hands have one picture of a stern vet in the entire book...

But also shouldn't they get a special character that allows them to use bionics, dreads as hq, termies as sarges etc...

Luko

Ace Rimmer
17-06-2011, 17:29
Of the OP's chosen codice's the biggest problems with C:CSM and C:CD is that they aren't just 1 book. I realise that the separation of the daemons was just a cunning ploy to make 1 range fit 2 game systems, but they could have done that without actually ripping them out of the the CSM book.

As for Eldar, beyond lowering the cost of some of the weapons to bring them in line with the current pricing structure, I'd like to see a few tweaks to shuriken weapons stats to make guardian defenders feasible as anything more than a 10man heavy weapon platform and maybe change exarch powers so they affect the whole unit of aspect warriors for the powers which don't, with an appropriate points adjustment.

I've never played as nids, but from playing against them, they seem to predominantly suffer from the mechanised nature of 5th ed. They don't seem to have access to many decnt ranged tank busting options beyond Tyrannofex's, hive tyrants and maybe gun fex's if they even still exist? Although Zoanthropes and Hive Guard are both good at anti-tank, the short-medium range of their weapons does make them less effective. Everything else has to run them down into a corner and open them up by hand, which can be pretty hard going against MEQ, let alone fast armies. Short of making a biovore mine that can hurt light armour, I'm not sure what can be done to help them?