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Tyranno1
13-06-2011, 18:24
Ok so at my local GW 2400 is the standard now, but I have yet to win a game at this points level. My opponents are all extremly competitive so I have to keep tweaking my list constantly, but I think I may have hit on something here that may work.

Lords:
Chaos Sorcerer Lord+ Lv 4+ 3rd eye of Tzeentch+ Infernal puppet+ Talisman of protection+ Mark of Tzeentch

Heroes:
Exalted+crown of command+ shield+ Mark of Tzeentch+ Battle standard


Core:
Chaos Warriorsx31+ Halbards+ Shields+ Mark of Khorne+ Full command+ Standard of Disapline


Special:
Chosenx28+ Shields+ Mark of Tzeentch+ Full command+ Favor of the gods+ Wailing banner


Rare:
Warshrine+ Mark of Tzeentch

Hellcannon
Hellcannon

The Chosen are my core block of troops, trying thier best to get the 12 on the eye of the gods, making them nigh indestructable. Both characters go in there. The Crown of command on the exalted is to make sure that if I dont get a 12 they are still stubborn (first time I used them they got broken in combat and destroyed, so I do not want to leave it to chance).

I used to have Wulfrik and some maruders to try and come on the back. But relying on one die every turn made it very very unreliable. So they are with the 2nd hellcannon and some more warriors.

The Chaos warriors are my hammer, tried to use Tzeentch but they lost combat alot due to lack of damage output. The reason for 31 is to just make them 600 points without buying another expensive unit.

And the sorcerer is mainly to shoot out the basic Tzeentch spell and Pandamonium to upset my opponents magic phase. The infernal puppet I find hilariously good with the hellcannon's misfire chart.

Arkostrain
13-06-2011, 20:10
Lord choice I like I have had a lot of success with Level 4 Sorc of Tzeench

The Rare is also good two hell canons are devastating

that said in general not enough units you will get flanked

I would split the warriors into 2 groups reduce the number of chosen to say 20 5x4 as mark of tzeench they will really become a tar pit and make the 2 warrior units larger and use warriors with halberds 6 wide minimum 3 deep

Tyranno1
13-06-2011, 20:22
I would rather keep them as one. Mainly becuase time after time in 8th I have been ruined by the victory points system. Either by my units being too flimsy and earning my opponent points, or I dont kill enough entierly. I have been useing the 1 older list hellcannon as a flank defense, and has been very good at it, it sits nearby and charges anything within stricking distance.

I do run the khorne warriors 6 wide, chosen too. Mabye I should reduce that to 5 as you said.

Arkostrain
13-06-2011, 20:45
well if you are going to be using the larg units try to use reforms including combat reforms to maximize frontage for the warriors as the extra 2 attacks per model for the fron rank makes a huge difference

another option that moves away from your current list a little more drastically would be to make the warriors tzeench give them hand weapon shield and make them deep drop the standard of Disapline and throw in the + 1 combat res standard + the bsb

and for the first combat you should be looking at anywhere from 3-5 static combat res and just make all your apponents flee

Which unit does the sorc go in or do you leave outside of unit (can be dangerous but has some advantages)

Tyranno1
13-06-2011, 20:55
The lord goes in the chosen, bsb too. Its why they are 28. And the Tzeentch+shield thing I did try. But it didnt work very well with 2 anvils. The lack of hammers just didnt help.

The standard of disapline is really just because it was a cheap banner, and the sorcerer dosent give them a LD boost anyway.

thesheriff
13-06-2011, 21:17
In an uber competitive environment, you don't take warrior hordes. There two much of a points sink and are effected badly by pit of hades/miasma combo. They also become more suceptable to warmachines. I would drop the warriors for two units of 50 khorne Marauders w. Great weapons, full command. Are p/p/p more combat effective, and more wounds are always good.

If your taking double cannon, death Mage/slannesh Mage + doom totem bsb works a treat.

Thesheriff

Tyranno1
14-06-2011, 12:37
Really? Nuts. I hate foot maruders, they drop like flies. It would be hard to proxy up that many for my next game, if the warriors fail then I defiantly give the maruders a shot.


Although the tip for the mage sounds like a good idea. I think I will dfiantly give that a shot in my next game. But I cant use the doom totem though since I have the crown of command, and I cant drop it because I need stubborn or I will lose the Chosen.

thekinginthewoods
14-06-2011, 19:40
The main problem i see is that you only have 2 combat blocks, which are too easy to flank, i would reduce the size of the warriors and take some warhounds for redirecting and warmachine hunting, and at least take some marauders with great weapons as they are a competitive option which it sounds like you need in your area.

thesheriff
14-06-2011, 21:02
How are you losing 28 chosen w. charecters? To ld. By turn two, you should have stubborn, 4++ statistically. The crown is not needed, and the totem woudl be a far better buy IMO.

Marauders do drop like flies. But putting it in perspective, youll have over 3 times as many marauders w. great weapons. Now, a marauder has two S5 attacks each. Same as warrior w. halberd. Yes, they dont have the armour, but the numbers make up for it. And the I you can ignore because when you have 40-60 per unit, you can afford to lose some and still get 3 ranks of BTB attacks!

Try both, is what i suggest. i know a WoC player who hates marauders. But, loads swear by them. Your choice really.

Tyranno1
14-06-2011, 21:57
Opponent charged with tomb guard and skeletons, chosen did almost no damage, lots of banners, ranks and charging meant they lost combat and had lass ranks so no stubborn. And yes I did fail to get 12 on the eye of the gods by that point in the game. This was before I added the bsb, he was originally added to get me some more combat potential along with stubborn for a low price.

And I have changed my mind on the maruders, I think I will give them a shot. But 100 though. Break out the unit fillers!

Brady
14-06-2011, 22:27
The chosen need to be your hammer unit, not your anvil. If your set on running the warrior unit then make them be your anvil with shields, tzeentch and raptorous standard. Give the chosen halberds, mark of Khorne, wailing banner and favor.

thesheriff
14-06-2011, 22:56
If your chosen are doing no damage, your unlucky. 28 chosen w. two characters and a warshrines should mince anything bar swordmasters or bloodletters really.

Your bad luck is also supported by the fact you lost to tomb kings, one of the two new balanced (but currently underpowered in comparison to races) armies.

That, or those tomb guard got buffed to a ridiculous level (ie; ASF, KB on 5+, 5++ ward, Ws10, I10).

col
14-06-2011, 23:58
Not convinced of the huge units you want to field. If your having probs facing such units try a chaos lord of tzeentch with 3+ ward, immunity to kb and stubborn. Point him at that huge unit of tomb guard, temple guard or swordmasters and pin it in place for the whole game while the rest of your army gangs up on whats left. In the example of the double charge against the chosen shows that a couple of marauder hordes could be very useful to protect what should be an effective hammer.

Tyranno1
15-06-2011, 12:22
your unlucky

Hit the nail on the head there. If something bad can happen in a game of mine it WILL. I have failed LD9 coldblooded with a reroll, I have had my unit of 40 gors beaten by 30 goblins, in all games with my dark elder coven list I have passed 3 4+ saves in total, I have had almost every single (as in rolling one die on its own) die I have had to roll fail, I could go on but that would take too long.

The tomb guard were a bit buffed though, WS6 from the king and +1 attack.

Its why I take the stubborn bsb, I don't want to leave anything to chance that I can avoid in some way.

I am happy with my Chosen remaining as the anvil though. When they have got the 3+ ward they are unkillable, and I prefer my most expensive unit remaining so.

Brady
15-06-2011, 13:36
However a 4+ ward is nearly as good, it also keeps them for more superior in combat.

Tyranno1
15-06-2011, 16:56
However a 4+ ward is nearly as good, it also keeps them for more superior in combat.

But what if I dont get the 12 roll? Then all they have to protect themselves is an armour save that will get torn apart by any dedicated combat troops.

thesheriff
15-06-2011, 18:10
Lets put it this way;

*Because you are chosen, you re-roll Results 2 and 7.
*Because you have terror banner, you reroll results 9 and 10.

So, 33% of the results you re-roll. You modify any other results by one.

Of the remaining 8 choices available, 2 of them can become 12. so 25% of the choices are going to be 12. You have 3 rolls on the table by your first shooting phase.

You should be fine.

Tyranno1
15-06-2011, 19:16
I should, but I never am. I quite reguarly fail LD tests even with rerolls, and just well, things that shouldnt go wrong do, reguarly.

I do know the 33% chance part. But I have the Tzeentch+shield ward save as a backup if it goes wrong (especially as its much harder to use the warshrine to get 12 as I cant re-roll 2s and 7s).

Confessor_Atol
15-06-2011, 19:30
ha,

step 1) buy new dice.....

Tyranno1
15-06-2011, 19:43
I dont think I will bring mine tomorrow, to force myself to buy new ones lol.

Tyranno1
16-06-2011, 21:51
Well got two games tonight. That might have been a bit of a push, got a headache -_-.

Anyway. Played agaisnt savage orcs and beastmen. Complete disaster. Got curbstomped in both games.

Hellcannons did ok, they hit fairly accuratly (second game one blew up turn 2).

Maruders. Did well second game, they help stuff up didnt do much damage to anything though (switched to flails for that game), but in game one they got killed in a single turn of combat each.

Chosen. Didnt get 12 once. And they servived all the games until the final turns so the warshrine got all the chances possible to give it to them.

So pretty much ended up flat on my face as usual.

thesheriff
17-06-2011, 19:59
I woudl suggest you drop a hellcannon for an extra warshrine. Nearly doubling your chances for EotG rolls is what you need to do to counter-act your bad rolling.

Again, it just sounds like luck....

P.S. - theres something that might help your bad luck here (http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADRA_enGB383GB383&q=weighted+dice)

Tyranno1
17-06-2011, 21:02
Hmmm, but then I am left with a single hellcannon, that on avarage hit its mark once per game.

I think its also the fact that I am just not that good a player. I forget things all the time, I dont notice what should be obvious things, I dont realise things I do are mistakes etc. I would have lost even more terribly in my second game if one of the other players hadnt pointed out that an opponents unit should take a panic test.

And haha, I see what you did there. ;)
No matter how bad my luck gets I dont do that.

thesheriff
17-06-2011, 22:04
Hmmm, but then I am left with a single hellcannon, that on avarage hit its mark once per game.

I think its also the fact that I am just not that good a player. I forget things all the time, I dont notice what should be obvious things, I dont realise things I do are mistakes etc. I would have lost even more terribly in my second game if one of the other players hadnt pointed out that an opponents unit should take a panic test.

And haha, I see what you did there. ;)
No matter how bad my luck gets I dont do that.

As school-driven and torturous as it sounds, practice makes perfect....

Tyranno1
18-06-2011, 20:56
As school-driven and torturous as it sounds, practice makes perfect....

Yeah. As I learned today when I went back and used my beastmen army that I had practiced with for longer. (I also prefer to use it, more fun, the WoC crushs were starting to grind my nerves)

I had a much more enjoyable game, it may have been a loss, but it was close, and I could easily see where I went wrong in the match and improve. Where as with the warriors games I really couldnt see much else I could do.