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twistedmarine
15-06-2011, 02:19
Tomorrow I plan on playin an apocalypse game where the mission is a storm the castle kinda deal. One force will be behind a good size fortification( castle walls with gun emplacements) and the opposing force will be assaulting. I have 4000 points of chaos, not including my Titan , and 4000 points of marines.
Now, what I would like to know is: without makin the walls cost points, how many points do u think each side should get, while still being fair? Ex: chaos gets 3300 plus Titan, marines get 3000.


Thanks, twisted marine

Theodred
15-06-2011, 02:32
How will the walls interact with troops?

twistedmarine
15-06-2011, 03:04
There's 3 sections where troops can stand on top, will recieve cover saves. And 2 towers which can have 10 men and the models can all fire out. Towers are bunkers with 13 armor. Models inside cannot be shot at. All wall sections have 13 armor and the main gate section is 14. The one gate is the only way through the walls. If walls/ towers are destroyed, any models on them must take an armor save, and the wall is replaced with rubble which equals difficult terrain from then on.
Does that help?
There is also 2 twin linked lascannons and an autocannon located on the walls.

Ghorhammer
15-06-2011, 03:10
Grant the attacking player an extra strategic asset of their choice.

Theodred
15-06-2011, 03:15
Well in that case, assuming the walls only have a single structure point, I wouldn't bother giving either side an advantage. The walls will help the defenders by giving them a few extra shots, but the cover save they'd already have from terrain or intervening models, and when the walls go down (and they will, very quickly!) the models on top will be hurt by them. So, in my opnion, it's an equal gain for an equal disadvantage.

Personally, I'd make the walls AV15, with 3 structure points, Ignoring glancing hits and ignoring the Lance rule. Models ON the wall recieve a 3+ cover save from any attack coming from INFRONT on the wall. Attacks from units that have landed ON or BEHIND the wall disallow the cover save.

The wall cannot be assaulted, and units on the wall cannot be assaulted by units on the ground.

Models on the wall when it is destroyed are Pinned, and take a wound on 4+, armour saves as normal.

Then I'd give the attackers twice the points of the defender.

twistedmarine
15-06-2011, 03:25
I like the av 15 idea. Maybe ill make the walls av14, 2 structure points and the main gate av15 with 3 structure points. And I like the auto pinned and wounded on 4+ with armor save.
So with that, maybe chaos will have 4000 points and warhound. Which is like 4750 I beloved. And the defending space marines can use 3000 points.
How far does that sound?

ehlijen
15-06-2011, 03:28
I actually don't think the AV rules are the best choice for walls. Fortress walls don't have fuel tanks or power feeds to blow up with a lucky strike.

Keep the rules for the gunmounts on top of the walls, but I'd suggest making the actual walls T10 'creatures' with multiple wounds and VtB. A railgun punching a hole in a wall is much more akin to wounding a gargantuan creature, than it is to punching through a tank armour plate and rolling to see what was behind it.

twistedmarine
15-06-2011, 03:39
I actually don't think the AV rules are the best choice for walls. Fortress walls don't have fuel tanks or power feeds to blow up with a lucky strike.

Keep the rules for the gunmounts on top of the walls, but I'd suggest making the actual walls T10 'creatures' with multiple wounds and VtB. A railgun punching a hole in a wall is much more akin to wounding a gargantuan creature, than it is to punching through a tank armour plate and rolling to see what was behind it.

The av rules don't represent fuel tanks and ammo etc, it represents key structures that hold the wall together.

Meltagun gun manages to melt through armor, and weakens the structure, wall crumbles.

Ever watch building demolitions? Same thing. They place explosives on key structure points and it goes down.

Now having chaos castle walls that are, say t10, with 4 wounds would be cool. I can picture daemonic walls of flesh. And when assaulted the wall gets like 3-4 attacks at I 4. I could definetly see that in a daemon/chaos world.

Theodred
15-06-2011, 04:08
I actually don't think the AV rules are the best choice for walls. Fortress walls don't have fuel tanks or power feeds to blow up with a lucky strike.

Keep the rules for the gunmounts on top of the walls, but I'd suggest making the actual walls T10 'creatures' with multiple wounds and VtB. A railgun punching a hole in a wall is much more akin to wounding a gargantuan creature, than it is to punching through a tank armour plate and rolling to see what was behind it.

If you take out the damage table, but still treat it as a vehicle, then effectively it has as many wounds as it has structure points, and can only be wounded by S10 weapons that roll a 5 or more. Giving it an AV rather than a Toughness value avoids the problems with rending, poison, sniper, force weapons, etc.

To get back on topic, yeah I think 4,750 for the Chaos forces, and 3,000 for the Marines sounds good.

twistedmarine
15-06-2011, 04:26
Alrighty, talked it over with my brother( person I'm playing) and he thinks it sounds good. I'll post tomorrow how the game goes.

ehlijen
15-06-2011, 07:15
The av rules don't represent fuel tanks and ammo etc, it represents key structures that hold the wall together.

Meltagun gun manages to melt through armor, and weakens the structure, wall crumbles.

Ever watch building demolitions? Same thing. They place explosives on key structure points and it goes down.

Now having chaos castle walls that are, say t10, with 4 wounds would be cool. I can picture daemonic walls of flesh. And when assaulted the wall gets like 3-4 attacks at I 4. I could definetly see that in a daemon/chaos world.

Fortress walls don't have 'key structure points'. The whole point of them is to shrug off damage no matter where it hits them. Buildings have a structue because they are expected to hold other things up, fortress walls aren't. All they're meant to do is present a tough, solid obstacle.

I like the deamon wall idea though. Could work for nids, too.

However:


Giving it an AV rather than a Toughness value avoids the problems with rending, poison, sniper, force weapons, etc.


That is a good point I forgot to think about.

I still think there should be a vulnerable to blast rule equivalent for AV things then. I'd expect demolisher cannons to blow out larger chunks than railguns out of anything solid, but due to the AP1 rule, the game currently has it the other way round.