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Tregar
15-06-2011, 12:21
Simple question: when you have barding on cavalry, their movement is reduced by 1". When you cast Birona's Timewarp on something, you double it's movement. So, is a barded cav unit with movement 9" e.g. Dragon Princes, with Timewarp:
a) (9 x 2) - 1 = 18" - 1" = 17"
or
b) (9 - 1) x 2 = 8" x 2 = 16"
?

Pulstar
15-06-2011, 12:24
A follow up to that question. Do both the Prince and the Horse get +1 attack? And the horse gets ASF, correct?

Oberon
15-06-2011, 12:31
Or is the movement capped at 10" like other stats, making timewarp pretty useless as a movement enhancing spell for cavalry?

Not a word to the elf.
15-06-2011, 12:34
To answer the question I would say go with 16 normally.

PS:

Oberon, I used it on a unit of TK chariots with banner of swiftness we ruled it as 18 inches as IMO the characteristic is M9 but you double it, not increasing it. Sorry for not making much sense.

Oberon
15-06-2011, 12:44
Hmm, I had to check but the FAQ indeed does answer my guestion. The movement is doubled to 18 for M9 models. The answer actually speaks of models with random movement-special rule, but the same logic should work for regular models too. Movement can go over 10 with timewarp.

Still can't answer the original guestion though, but I'd say that barding reduces movement (page 82) and timewarp doubles that=barded M9 goes 16" with timewarp.

Tregar
15-06-2011, 12:47
I have come to the conclusion that since both happen at the same time, the player whose turn it is decides. So, 17" in my turn, 16" in my opponent. Gogo GMW!

EDMM
15-06-2011, 14:11
Reference Section – The Lore of Light, Birona’s
Timewarp
Change “[...]Movement[...]” to “[...]Movement
Allowance[...]”

Models and Units
Q: When a model has a random characteristic value, 3D6 or
2D6+2 for example, can that characteristic go above 10? (p3)
A: Yes, this is an exception to the usual maximum.

The exception is for random characteristics, not for Timewarp.

Timewarp increases the unit's Movement Allowance.

The unit's Movement Allowance can't go above 10.

Barding reduces the unit's Movement Allowance by 1.

Cavalry units with Birona's Timewarp can move 9" normally, or 18" when marching.

Oberon
15-06-2011, 14:26
Somehow I totally ignored the errata part for reference section. So, I was right after all, but stupid when trying to read the FAQ. "Yay"

Conclusion: timewarp isn't that hot for cavalry.

Bodysnatcher
15-06-2011, 15:57
Somehow I totally ignored the errata part for reference section. So, I was right after all, but stupid when trying to read the FAQ. "Yay"

Conclusion: timewarp isn't that hot for cavalry.

ASF and the extra attack is pretty tasty on its own.

DeathlessDraich
15-06-2011, 16:19
The exception is for random characteristics, not for Timewarp.

Timewarp increases the unit's Movement Allowance.

The unit's Movement Allowance can't go above 10.

Barding reduces the unit's Movement Allowance by 1.

Cavalry units with Birona's Timewarp can move 9" normally, or 18" when marching.

It's not the only exception - another FAQ states that a movement allowance of 5" when tripled becomes a max. movement of 15".
So it's a matter of which FAQ you choose as correct :D

EDMM
15-06-2011, 16:50
Which FAQ is that?

Bodysnatcher
15-06-2011, 16:55
Which FAQ is that?

Skaven one with the banner for triple movement to march?

Kalandros
15-06-2011, 17:05
That's an "army book trumps rule book" issue for the Skaven.
Timewarp is rulebook thus follows the max 10.

Tregar
15-06-2011, 17:13
Ah, but advanced rules also trump basic rules. Stats are basic rules, but all spells are advanced rules, so if the Skaven book is allowed to break that rule, so is the Lore of Light!

decker_cky
15-06-2011, 17:30
"Note that bonuses and penalties from Hex, Augment and other spells are cumulative, but normally cannot take any characteristics above 10 or below 1."

P. 31 of the BRB. Timewarp is an augment therefore follows that rule, unless it said specifically that you could break the limit in the spell rules (like the skaven spell wither does).

EDMM
15-06-2011, 17:36
About the Skaven Banner of Verminous Scurrying:


Your Movement Allowance has a maximum of 10.
Normally you can move up to your Movement Allowance.
Marching lets you move up to double your Movement Allowance .
The Banner of Verminous Scurrying lets you move up to triple your Movement Allowance.

The Banner of Verminous Scurrying does not increase your Movement Allowance. Timewarp does.
There is no limit in this game as to how far a unit may move. There is a limit on a unit's Movement Allowance, and this is limited to 10. The limitations on how far units may move are secondary effects to the rules that state a normal move is equal to your Movement Allowance, a march is equal to double your Movement Allowance, etc.

The Banner of Verminous Scurrying allows you to move triple your Movement Allowance. It does not triple your Movement Allowance. It simply means you march at triple your Movement Allowance instead of double your Movement Allowance.

If GW wanted to, they could make a spell or item that let you move 100 times your Movement Allowance. That spell or item would not change the rule that your Movement Allowance is capped at 10. So the spell or item that let you move at 100 times rate would have a maximum range of 1,000" (assuming it was used by an M10 unit).

Tregar
15-06-2011, 18:08
"Note that bonuses and penalties from Hex, Augment and other spells are cumulative, but normally cannot take any characteristics above 10 or below 1."

P. 31 of the BRB. Timewarp is an augment therefore follows that rule, unless it said specifically that you could break the limit in the spell rules (like the skaven spell wither does).

Interesting. Knowing GW they wouldn't understand this and FAQ it to say you can do it, but it's probably more sensible to follow this until they faq it up ;) In terms of actual games, playing my DPs as having double movement basically meant I lost the game (as they were forced to charge a block with great weapons with Rune of Challenge, that they couldn't break). Only other time this has come up a Lizardman player used it to walk his cav 14" though a swamp, curse them cheatin' lizards ;)

PaintByNumbers
15-06-2011, 18:15
Movement Allowance =/= Movement Characteristic.

Movement Allowance is not restricted. Movement Characteristic is.

EDMM
15-06-2011, 18:31
Care to read page 3 again?


MOVEMENT ALLOWANCE (M)
Often called Move, this shows the number of inches a model can move on the battlefield under normal circumstances. For example, a Man with a Move of 4 (M4) can move up to 4" when moving at full rate. A horse moves far faster and therefore has M8.

Ha!

Mr_Rose
15-06-2011, 19:09
It's not the only exception - another FAQ states that a movement allowance of 5" when tripled becomes a max. movement of 15".
So it's a matter of which FAQ you choose as correct :D
You mean the banner of verminous scurrying that allows a marching model to move triple its allowance instead of double? That one?

So you ordinarily play it that a unit with M8 that Marches only moves 10"? Because that's what you're implying.

PaintByNumbers
15-06-2011, 21:34
Obnoxious response.

You are right though. I was mixing up the 4 or 5 different terms they use for the same characteristic (Movement).

EDMM
15-06-2011, 22:06
Sorry for the obnoxious post. It just gets my goat when people make clear and direct statements that are contradicted by a simple quotation of the plain rules in black and white.

I've even been guilty of it myself once or twice, so any attitude in my post wasn't called for.

T10
16-06-2011, 10:38
You mean the banner of verminous scurrying that allows a marching model to move triple its allowance instead of double? That one?


It seems to me that he suggests the skaven can march 30 inches...

Marching doesn't double the model's Movement, it allows him to move a distance up to twice his Movement.

-T10

PaintByNumbers
16-06-2011, 15:04
Sorry for the obnoxious post. It just gets my goat when people make clear and direct statements that are contradicted by a simple quotation of the plain rules in black and white.

I've even been guilty of it myself once or twice, so any attitude in my post wasn't called for.

No worries. It was a good catch. After rereading through the movement section and other sections pertaining to movement It seems the only place in the rule book they use the term Movement Allowance is on page 3 (and in the index) so it is easily overlooked. Case in point. :)

As for Timewarp, as it does target the Movement characteristic, I would say it caps at 10.

Wesser
18-06-2011, 23:10
Myeah I think its just sloppy work on GW's part.

Usually when they deal with magic weapons etc. that increase a characteristic they add in that "remember that this number can never exceed 10".

Or they would write: "to a maximum of 10".

Anyway if we have to go by the exact wording then it says that the target's movement is doubled. Might as well be construed as any movement is doubled, so that if i declared my unit would move 5 inches it instead had to move 10, because "movement is doubled".

A unit's movement (not allowance/characteristic etc. It DONT say that) is its movement characteristic minus any modifiers. The distance it is able to move is then doubled by the spell. The same logic applies to march moves It aint the characteristic thats doubled as such, so for instance:

Ellerian reaver: M9 and no modifiers= Able to move up to 18. Able to march 36

Dragonknight: M9 and barding = Able to move 16 and march 32

Dragonknight afflicted by Melkoths Miasma (Shadow movement inhibiting spell):
Assuming a roll of "2": M9 minus 2 for the spell minus 1 for barding equals M6 = Able to move 12 and march 24 while under time warp.

There is nothing in the spell text to justify "Invoke obscure rule" about characteristics and whatnot. Also common sense is allowed

Mr_Rose
18-06-2011, 23:57
Myeah I think its just sloppy work on GW's part.

Usually when they deal with magic weapons etc. that increase a characteristic they add in that "remember that this number can never exceed 10".

Or they would write: "to a maximum of 10".They did. Twice.
the first time on p.3 and again on p.31 in the rules for spells. Which is what Birona's Timewarp is.

Anyway if we have to go by the exact wording then it says that the target's movement is doubled. Might as well be construed as any movement is doubled, so that if i declared my unit would move 5 inches it instead had to move 10, because "movement is doubled".The spell says their movement allowance, ie is the characteristic defined on p.3 of the rulebook, is affected, not their movement. It did, once, and it was ambiguous and so was corrected:

Reference Section – The Lore of Light, Birona’s
Timewarp
Change “[...]Movement[...]” to “[...]Movement
Allowance[...]”


A unit's movement (not allowance/characteristic etc. It DONT say that) is its movement characteristic minus any modifiers. The distance it is able to move is then doubled by the spell. The same logic applies to march moves It aint the characteristic thats doubled as such, so for instance:It does. See the Errata, as pointed out previously. Have you read the thread at all?


Ellerian reaver: M9 and no modifiers= Able to move up to 18. Able to march 36

Dragonknight: M9 and barding = Able to move 16 and march 32

Dragonknight afflicted by Melkoths Miasma (Shadow movement inhibiting spell):
Assuming a roll of "2": M9 minus 2 for the spell minus 1 for barding equals M6 = Able to move 12 and march 24 while under time warp.
All wrong, to the maximum extent that it is possible to be wrong in this case.

There is nothing in the spell text to justify "Invoke obscure rule" about characteristics and whatnot. Also common sense is allowedExcept that it's a spell and all spells are covered by the same rules regarding characteristics, detailed on p.31. Or are the rules that tell you how to cast and resolve spells too "obscure" to possibly cover a resolving spell?:rolleyes:

EDMM
19-06-2011, 00:22
Ha. Well done Mr_Rose.

Wesser
19-06-2011, 07:53
I see nothing in either that supports your argument.

In the FAQ it mentions an example of a random (3D6) movement being doubled from a roll of 9 to 18.

About the p3 about movement then its even vaguer than before. Using the the exact wording of the phrase as made out by you then its not allowed to march anymore. Because movement is restriced to 10, right?

The marching rules actually have the exact same wording as Birona's timewarp in that the unit's movement is doubled. So I guess the days of marching cavalry is over eh?

In case of a charging unit thn the charging distance would be 2D6 + the doubled movement.

MR. Rose. You do an awful lot of saying that I'm wrong based on the assumption that the spell increases a characteristic. I see nothing to suggest thats the case, so either I'm right or your cavalry, fliers etc. wont be marching ever again. Have a choice

AMWOOD co
19-06-2011, 09:00
I see nothing in either that supports your argument.

In the FAQ it mentions an example of a random (3D6) movement being doubled from a roll of 9 to 18.

Always regard random values as oddities. A random attack value is allowed to exceed 10 while normal attacks are not. Random Movement must therefore be given special allowances compared to normal movement.


About the p3 about movement then its even vaguer than before. Using the the exact wording of the phrase as made out by you then its not allowed to march anymore. Because movement is restriced to 10, right?

The marching rules actually have the exact same wording as Birona's timewarp in that the unit's movement is doubled. So I guess the days of marching cavalry is over eh?

Check the exact wording again.

Timewarp was changed to 'Movement Allowance', which is the stat. All statistics are stated to have a maximum value of 10. (see Rulebook 1.4 FAQ - Errata)

Marching mentions 'movement rate', which by default is 1" per point of Movement Allowance (stated multiple times). Marching therefore allows you to move 2" for each point of Movement Allowance, not double the Movement Allowance itself.


In case of a charging unit thn the charging distance would be 2D6 + the doubled movement.

If you mean while Timewarp is cast on the unit then, to a max of 10+2D6, this is correct.

If any of the above is unclear or in error, please specify which and I will be happy to discuss.

Wesser
19-06-2011, 09:46
Check the exact wording again.

Timewarp was changed to 'Movement Allowance', which is the stat. All statistics are stated to have a maximum value of 10. (see Rulebook 1.4 FAQ - Errata)


I stand corrected. My FAQ was an older copy.

I can only lament that they faq something and not clarify it proper for a person like me, who hates that they apparently use the words "allowance" and "characteristic" to describe the same thing.

Only after reading 2 pages of warseer (and being corrected) and perusing specific sections of the rulebook twice did I find out something that GW could have fixed with a half line more in the FAQ.

Guess I just grumble because I was wrong, but still..

Mr_Rose
19-06-2011, 10:09
I stand corrected. My FAQ was an older copy.
Older than version 1.0 of the FAQ?
As in, older than the first FAQ they published for the new rulebook? Or are you saying you were trying to use 7e FAQs with the 8e book?
Forgive me if I find this incredibly unlikely.

Tregar
19-06-2011, 13:11
He means the version of the FAQ in his head ;)