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T10
16-06-2011, 22:53
Ok, I've given this a couple of tries, and I am reasonably satisfied.

The high WS and S allows it to make the best of its Frenzy, and being able to shoot allows them to take part in the battle from turn one. Baiting units such as light cavalry are easily disposed off with massed bowfire, and being able to pick off a few models on a stand & shoot is also good.

Of course, I support them with a Savage Orc War Boss designed to increase close combat damage: The unit isn't awesome in close combat. They sure would fight better with additional hand weapons, or even spears, but the bows give them great versatility: you can hang back for a round or two while the enemy gets annoyed at being subjected to 20+ bow shots from a unit that is itself remarkably resilient to missile fire and is immune to psychology. When the enemy comes for you, you can simply charge him right back with a solid combined charge: He's moved into your reach to get at your Savage Orcs!

Malorian
17-06-2011, 01:22
Don't you have another unit that could take the bows?

I mean even though I don't agree with it tactically I can see how bows on fighters work for some metagames, but on big uns?!?

Big uns are your elite, they should be rushing towards combat and thus unable to shoot. Leave the bows to some regular orcs, or even regular savages, but good god please not the big uns!

T10
17-06-2011, 14:42
Of course I have other units that can take bows. I can take Arrer Boyz, or Goblins, or even non-upgraded Savage Orcs. The thing with these units are that they quickly attract the attention of enemy close combat units, and since they are using bows they can't deal enough damage quickly enough to make the unavoidable combat winnable. With SOB'UWB the combat becomes winnable with less damage dealt to the enemy simply because they can kick so much more rump in close combat.

-T10

Kalandros
17-06-2011, 15:18
two hand weapons will always be superior to bows. Bows don't deal enough damage.
Ranged weapons that are not war machine or flamers of tzeentch aren't that effective in this edition.

Malorian
17-06-2011, 15:22
The thing with these units are that they quickly attract the attention of enemy close combat units, and since they are using bows they can't deal enough damage quickly enough to make the unavoidable combat winnable.

Good god... does this mean?... shooting doesn't win 8th... combat does?

If only someone would have told us! Some wise old sage, here to warn us from putting bows on combat units.

I mean I was totally worried too about those fast cav units worth 100 points, but now I too realize that beating the 500 point unit is more important.

This is a good day for the internet. I just wish I would have known this sooner...


:shifty:


Edit: Ok I'm being a jerk.

I just find it funny the number of people out there that actually like putting bows on their combat troops, and so couldn't help it when one of them admitted that it doesn't work out so well ;)

Ever since 8th missile weapons have all but disappeared from my greenskin army. You'll now only see them on my wolf chariots (because they are free) and on my bunker (they might as well try to do something while back there).

I just load up on combat units and dominate the combat phase. Works VERY well ;)

stashman
17-06-2011, 17:49
Bows for fun! And the game is ment be fun!

russellmoo
17-06-2011, 18:40
I think Mal's point was simply that by giving big unz bows and having them sit back you aren't making the best use of the big unz upgrade (as it adds +1 WS and +1Str) now if you could choose to either increase WS or BS when you took the big unz upgrade this would be an equally good use of points- but as is, you are better off using big unz to get into combat as soon as possible-

If you like it for whatever reason- go for it- the more I play 8th the more I become convinced that the game tends to be the most fun when you take a variety of different units-

T10
17-06-2011, 18:44
Good god... does this mean?... shooting doesn't win 8th... combat does?
...
I just find it funny the number of people out there that actually like putting bows on their combat troops, and so couldn't help it when one of them admitted that it doesn't work out so well ;)


I'm not sure this was all that much to get excited about, but sure: You'll never see a sea-guard unit again after having read this.

(I don't know who these guys are that put "bows on their combat troops". Probably Orc and Goblin players since there's only the Savage Orc models that are both close-combat certified and have the option to take bows of any sort.)

I find myself fighting the urge to defend SOB'UWB's as some sort of ultimate unit, the great hidden jewel of Warhammer! But let's be realistic. It's a Strength 4 guy (Strength 5 even, first round of combat) using a Strength 3 bow. It's not a Chaos Space Marine with a bolter and a 10,000 year old grudge against the Imperium of Man. It's more like giving a really strong retard a nerf-gun (but a nerf-gun that kills!)

The thing that gets me excited is that this opens up entirely new tactical venues. I now have a unit that can do entirely new things, and I need to figure out how to make the most of it.

-T10

Zywus
17-06-2011, 19:04
I can see the point in having a unit of savage orcs with bows. It gives you a shooty unit which can stand up to many units if it gets down to hth combat. But on big 'uns in particular it feels you are wasting too much hth killyness (which you have paid for both in points and in 'wasting' your only big'un slot on said bow guys) in most cases if you are going to use the bows at the expence of moving as fast as you could be doing.

Malorian
17-06-2011, 19:10
Shooting, especially arrows, just aren't worth it in 8th.

Ok, str 5 trebs and grudge throwers are amazing, but in the end the winner is going to be determined by who has the biggest and baddest unit in combat, especially when you play against people of my thinking of 'bigger is better'.

Just look at the easiest comparision: savage orc biguns w/ bow vs savage orc biguns w/ extra choppa.

Bows kill some... bows kill some... extra choppas charge in, win combat, and either the bows are ran down or they are on their way to eventual defeat.


Ok, I'll admit that against a run around army like wood elves they bows would be better, but what do you see more of in your area: wood elves or armies looking for a straight up fight?

A lot of armies will have little support units like fast cav, but by and large you can ignore them and go for the big points. Really all those fast cav are going to do is kill your war machines, but if you also didn't take those in the first place then they have nothing to do anyway!

I mean what are they going to do? Charge your savages in the flank? They get a couple of kills, a flank, and charge, but in the end it doesn't matter because they are wiped out.


It's one thing to add a tactical venue and quite another to alter your combat troops to the point that they can not do their original purpose: win combat.

popisdead
17-06-2011, 21:25
Shooting, especially arrows, just aren't worth it in 8th.


Don't tell Wood Elves (I haven't seen a list without 20-40 GG yet either).

SetheloniusBunk
17-06-2011, 21:38
How big of a unit of SOB'UWB (surprisingly fun to say aloud) do you typically run?

I was thinking of running a 20-strong block for general harrassment and solid war machine protection. I reckon they could also be used as the unit that starts in the Watchtower, since they'd be the only block small enough to and you don't have to worry about Frenzy baiting them out of it.

T10
17-06-2011, 22:14
30, plus a Savage Orc Warboss on a Warboar. I am considering picking up another 10 (though these will be modelled with close combat weapons in the likely event that I suffer inglorious defeat and never want to see an Orc with a bow again).

The volley-fire rules make large units of missile troops quite... uh, well, able to shoot a lot. I can't say "viable" with a straight face.

-T10

stashman
17-06-2011, 23:12
40 savage orcs big un bowmen shoots 30 shots. Add a goblin with poison banner and hope for the spider spell to kick in.

Thats alot of shooting and alot of direct wounds, and a great stand and shoot tactic.

Horde with 2 choppas is only 10 more attacks, maybe only 5-7 hits and probably around 3-5 wounds (I'm not a mathhammer man, so help me count)

Horde with bows is 20 "attacks" stand and shot, maybe 5 hits, around 2 wounds.

Well less, but you shot once more with 30 shots before getting charge, so what is best in math-hammer theory?

And add spiderbanner with spiderspell to see how more usefull the bow is.

I run a 60 arrerboy (12 wide with goblin bsb and 12 wide so gobbo is safe from harm in close combat) unit with spiderbanner once and the opponent was terrified ;)

Math-hammerers help me/us out.

Thanks

Malorian
18-06-2011, 04:53
And add spiderbanner with spiderspell to see how more usefull the bow is.

Great so you run bsb with an expensive banner who has to be in a risky position, and then you also need to buff this thing up with magic... then it's good...

Well that doesn't sound like much at all... totally worth it.

:rolleyes:


Note I wouldn't pick on this idea if it was in Jind's thread about having fun with greenskins, but this is in the tactics page, and I feel I have a responsibility to warn new players before they listen to this advice and buy a shooty army just to have it thrashed.

Harwammer
18-06-2011, 08:59
True, but the idea is here for discussion how best to make it work, rather than whether or not the unit should be included to begin with, right?

castlesmadeofsand
18-06-2011, 10:42
i don't think i'd use my big'un upgrade on a bow unit. i see the only really viable use of bow armed savages is as a flanking unit. 10/12 with bows, they can all shoot, and attack in combat and deny ranks if you get them into a flank (without losses, but if an enemy is wasting effort on these guys its happy days). run inbetween a couple of big steadfast blocks of orcs/n.goblins they can counter charge and add the additional attacks/ranks to help win combat.

Morkash
18-06-2011, 12:52
I found 21 Savages with Bows a very fine flank protection unit. They have 18 shots in ranged combat and in meele they can all attack against 5 25 mm bases, which means 28 S4 attacks in first round of combat! (Which often means that they do not get charged... ;))
But for the Big 'Unz upgrade...hmm...I do not think it is worth it. If you include a BSB for poisoned shooting, the unit becomes very expensive, which means you could just as well get a Savage Great Shaman with Fencer's and Shrunken Head and wreak havoc with dual choppaz.

Bortus
18-06-2011, 14:26
Hmnn...a SOWB on a boar...since he doesn't get a "look out sir" I wonder how you have tooled him up? Anyway, I gotta say I have always loved the idea of an Orc bow unit and always hoped they would do something extra with Arrer Boyz but alas...even though I admire T10 for sticking with it I agree with Malorian in that 8th is just a different ball game!

I can however see such a unit in a themed army perhaps or for a change of pace but honestly there are better ways to spend your points. Don't get me wrong I still like the idea and have 30 Arrer Boyz sitting on the shelf waiting for a game! Maybe in 9th? :)

Mercules
18-06-2011, 18:10
Just look at the easiest comparision: savage orc biguns w/ bow vs savage orc biguns w/ extra choppa.

Bows kill some... bows kill some... extra choppas charge in, win combat, and either the bows are ran down or they are on their way to eventual defeat.

Extra Choppas only add in 1 extra attack to the front rank of the unit. Admittedly it is every close combat turn but the bows offer something when they are not in CC.

I agree that it isn't optimal to build a huge nasty CC unit and then hold them back from combat to shoot. Sometimes non-optimal builds can be good as they are rather unexpected and people don't know how to deal with them.

"Oh it is shooting me... I'll just charge in an... Ow! ow! ow!"

The times I would likely use this would be in low point games, which Malorian admits he doesn't like to play. At those point levels the shooting and Stand and Shoot options make a difference.

I might consider using small units of Savage Orcs with Bows as flankers. Not sure I would spend my "Big'Uns" option on them though.

russellmoo
18-06-2011, 20:19
I agree that there might be something to this, at lower points levels where BS shooting and versatility matter more, but in larger games it comes down to specialization and one unit, one task-

However, as far as shooting goes I'm wondering about creating a unit of 100 night goblins with bows- are spears just universally better or is there a place for a unit like this?

Malorian
19-06-2011, 15:21
I agree that there might be something to this, at lower points levels where BS shooting and versatility matter more, but in larger games it comes down to specialization and one unit, one task-

However, as far as shooting goes I'm wondering about creating a unit of 100 night goblins with bows- are spears just universally better or is there a place for a unit like this?

Your first statement answers your second statement ;)


I actually thought about trying this but I don't have quite enough (80).

The difference here is that these actually aren't combat troops so it's not a big deal when you cut into their 'killing power'. In most cases the big bosses with great weapons will still be there :D


So if you have the models then give it a try, but in the end their range and min damage will mean that spears will be better.

T10
19-06-2011, 17:00
To get a magic banner into the unit, you're going to have to use a BSB, and that'll be just the one banner. Effects that apply to both close combat and shooting will be preferable:

- the Spider Banner looks good: the unit will often require a 5+ or 6+ to hit anyway. This requires a Goblin BSB, which is some-what vulnerable. I have a Goblin BSB on a Gigantic Spider that I usually run in a unit of Trolls, maybe a good idea to try him out in the SOB'UWBs...

- The Bad Moon banner seems like an odd package. It makes the Night Goblin BSB Stubborn, which in turn carries over to the unit. In addition, the unit gets some protection from shooting and it also makes it less appealing to charge the unit with expensive heavily armoured troops such as knights. It seems most appropriate if facing an enemy that can both out-shoot you and out-charge you, such as Elves and the Empire.

- The Warbanner can prove valuable in helping the unit _not lose combat_ and thus preserve its Frenzy.

- Standard of Disipline is an obvious enhancement to the "Leadership Bubble": it also helps improve the unit's chance to restrain from making overly long charges.

- Banner of Eternal Flame, like the Spider Banner, benefits both close combat and shooting attacks and makes the unit a real threat to units that rely on Regeneration: Trolls, Hell Pit Abominations, Varghulfs...

-T10