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View Full Version : Is it just me or?



Glyn
18-06-2011, 16:30
I know this post might sound like an invite to trouble but please it's not it's a genuine request for opinions from both sides here.

Is it just me or is everyone sick to death of hearing the same old thing that Imperial Guard either cant win battles or cant win without tanks?

What is it that has led to this general misconception and do you agree with it or not and why?

I mean when they were first released with each regiment and rules being in white dwarf the Guard didnt have tanks and they were generally laughed at and called a "Meatshield" and this has tended to be the presiding belief to this day it seems. the Guard acquired tanks in thier first codex and they've stayed to this day...

Before anyone asks yes i do play Imperial Guard i play a pure infantry army and I also have an armoured or mechanised company but i keep them seperate....oddly i find the mech force gets beaten up far more than the infantry one does.

cornonthecob
18-06-2011, 16:33
Tanks aid the game , but yes as a meatshield the guard can win.

Lord Gabranth
18-06-2011, 16:38
Personally I have seen three sides to this topic.

1) I have a friend who only plays horde IG. Hates mech. He has had plenty of wins against me in the past.

2) I have another who plays both. He has the ability to run large groups of vehicles or large groops of troops, or both.

3) I personally play what would be called IG mech. One Valk, two russes, one bassie, one bane wolf, and I get my ass beat all the time because some of the people at my LGS have started list tailoring. (see what im playing first then they build a list.)

fwacho
18-06-2011, 16:56
I often run pure foot soilders with maybe a sentinal squad throw in. but my horde list always does well.

althathir
18-06-2011, 19:01
To be honest a lot of it is the internets fault, it just seems like people brainstorm a net list up, and from that point on, that one list is considered the best possible list (unless someone wins a major tournament with a different build).

I think its a by product of it being much easier to make someone lists fit your tactics and teach them those, than it is for people to describe tactics for a list that they haven't considered.

AUN'SHI
18-06-2011, 19:21
For anyone that thinks that imperial guard can't win a game... The nicest way I can put this is they are very much so mistaken....

Tanks the only way to win... ummm tanks for basically every army is the way to go so where's the difference from any other army there? (well except nid's as they don't exactly have tanks.)

Perfect Organism
18-06-2011, 19:22
Unfortuantely, the most effective pure-infantry guard armies tend to have a lot of models. This means that they are hugely expensive to buy, a massive project to build and paint and rather difficult to transport, set up and manage.

So, many people who play all-infantry guard armies tend to try and use lots of high points units, like veterans, ogryns and penal legion, because it's simply easier to play armies with fewer models. This isn't really a good way to play guard, so they tend to not do especially well.

To make things worse, the infantry units and choices which are good in mechanised forces aren't so desirable in infantry armies. Veterans are pretty good when they can be transported in chimeras, but die quickly if left standing in the open. Special weapons are essential for small units with good mobility, but something of a points sink in huge gunlines relying on FRFSRF to lay down a barrage of lasguns. Commisars are overpriced for ten-man squads in chimeras, but pretty good value for 30-man combined units. So, once you have learnt to play mech-guard, you need to completely rethink how you play your army in order to play infantry guard. And all the advice on the internet tends to focus on the more popular army build.

So, even if all-infantry guard armies were just as strong as mechanised ones, they would still be unpopular and have a disproportionately large number of people who tried them thinking they weren't as good as they actually could be.

kalon
18-06-2011, 20:42
I few month ago I played necrons against IG and lost both times, I had 40 warriors 2 lords, one destroyer lord and one on foot 6 destroyers, 3 Hvy destroyers and a monolith. I certainly didn't expect to lose to them, let alone twice.

Vaktathi
18-06-2011, 21:33
Unfortuantely, the most effective pure-infantry guard armies tend to have a lot of models. This means that they are hugely expensive to buy, a massive project to build and paint and rather difficult to transport, set up and manage.

So, many people who play all-infantry guard armies tend to try and use lots of high points units, like veterans, ogryns and penal legion, because it's simply easier to play armies with fewer models. This isn't really a good way to play guard, so they tend to not do especially well.

To make things worse, the infantry units and choices which are good in mechanised forces aren't so desirable in infantry armies. Veterans are pretty good when they can be transported in chimeras, but die quickly if left standing in the open. Special weapons are essential for small units with good mobility, but something of a points sink in huge gunlines relying on FRFSRF to lay down a barrage of lasguns. Commisars are overpriced for ten-man squads in chimeras, but pretty good value for 30-man combined units. So, once you have learnt to play mech-guard, you need to completely rethink how you play your army in order to play infantry guard. And all the advice on the internet tends to focus on the more popular army build.

So, even if all-infantry guard armies were just as strong as mechanised ones, they would still be unpopular and have a disproportionately large number of people who tried them thinking they weren't as good as they actually could be.

This pretty much. All infantry IG armies aren't awful by any means, especially in light of how atrocious IG in general were in the previous codex. However, the Mechanized armies do tend to be a bit better, for a couple reasons. First, many of the infantry units are either overcosted (e.g. heavy weapons squads especially, 10man infantry squads to a lesser extent) or just don't function well if not mechanized (vets) or just don't work well much to begin with (Penal Legion troops). Second, the missions themselves often lend themselves very well to mech. Dawn of War is a great example, Mech IG love that mission, whereas infantry IG despise it.

However the infantry spam IG army can and often does work fairly well, but requires an even greater investment in terms of time and money on the part of the player than the already expensive mechanized IG, and games take longer to play and setup/cleanup. As much or more than rules issues, these really make infantry armies unappealing. Who wants to deal with a deployment zone they can't fit their army in and that takes 40 mins to set up and requires moving and shooting up to 160 models?

Glyn
18-06-2011, 23:44
I must agree with cost in terms of money issue here, and in honesty transporting the army can be a royal pain in the neck I freely admit it...i need 2 large cases to transport mine but i hadnt noticed the subtle sort of push within the codex towards mech armies until it's been pointed out here....

thank you all for your feedback so far please keep it coming

unheilig
19-06-2011, 00:01
Also most tournament games are timed, so most toruney IG players are going to focus on mech.

Monospot
19-06-2011, 00:05
I have 300+ grunts who beg to differ.

adeptusphotographicus
19-06-2011, 00:43
I think one must consider the source of the complaints.

once one factors them out, as they are the same lot that winge about everything, you find not very many people who matter make such claims..

madprophet
19-06-2011, 03:16
I've been playing Guard for over 15 years and I have a pretty good average against all comers - I bat about .670.

I don't use a lot of tanks - even then, I use them as fire magnets. My light infantry generally carries the day with organic heavies (I like Rocket Launchers) and some heavy support squads and some snipers to pick of enemy characters/leaders

Lord Gabranth
19-06-2011, 06:29
So, many people who play all-infantry guard armies tend to try and use lots of high points units, like veterans, ogryns and penal legion, because it's simply easier to play armies with fewer models. This isn't really a good way to play guard, so they tend to not do especially well.

This 100%. I started my guard army in march and I used this build so I wouldnt have to deal with platoons, massive setup, transport capacity, and painting all those damn minis. I lose......alot. So now Im going the route of platoons for organic heavies and meatsheilds that can be stubborn, be given orders, and amassed into one squadron. Now I can have 50 guardsmen in one squad, have them sit back and use First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire! for a total of 100 lasgun shots at 24" and 150 at 12". Blade storm eat your heart out.

rayrod64
20-06-2011, 14:15
Im trying a assault IG list
40 vets w/shotguns in a Storm lord
2 valks with karskin assault troops
2 hellhounds
the rest of my guard in ranks w hvy wpns

I get wrecked most of the time but its great to see my opponent look at me like im nuts in the assault

actually cheer when i gt to l kill a space marine....even though i lose 6 guys doing it:)

DeadlySquirrel
20-06-2011, 14:22
when will people learn that it isnt the army that makes you win, its the player. A fantastic list that is considered cheesy and overpowered will play awful if the player's tactics are incorrect.

Its all about the commander... and the dice gods.

Commissar Vaughn
20-06-2011, 14:30
I have the models to run a pure infantry army, and occasionally do. I dont storm troopers, ogryns or any other "elites". No conscripts either.

Just ordinary Guard squads and maybe 1 or 2 heavy weapons squads.

The aim when building such a list is to pack it with as many bodies carrying as many guns as possible: dont waste points on useless rubbish like Voxs or power swords etc. If it cant kill something in the shooting phase you shouldnt have brung it. Only one commissar...for fluff, every regiment has a commissar.

I remember a bloke who used a much feared nid army consisting of hundreds of little critters...swarms of 'em! It apparently did very well in the local gaming groups. He was a bit upset after I deployed 4 ranks of guardsmen bases to base across a four foot table. Wasnt being used to being outnumbered you see ;) . Certainly wasnt used to being annhialated with no nids getting within 15" of my front rank and only inflicting 6 casualties. I didnt even need to rapid fire..

Nobody round here mocks all infantry Guard...not for long anyway. About halfway into their deployment they realise the awful truth....

They didnt bring enough bullets.

igwarlord
20-06-2011, 14:31
honestly i wish they would make movement type trays for 40k that keeps your models 2 inches apart in a 10 man squad
if they did that there would be alot more hoard lists
i think the general idea is just that moving all those guys takes so much freaking time its not so much fun anymore
example a local ork player has a 30 man gretchin squad and he takes FOREVER to measure move all 30
if they were in 3 trays of 10 men each it would take 10 seconds not 3 minutes

ColShaw
20-06-2011, 14:59
Vaktathi and Perfect Organism pretty much make all the points I was planning on making.

I love my infantry IG, love them to death. Always have. But they are a royal pain to deploy (and put back). I've had to discipline myself to a very regimented and streamlined packing/unpacking ritual for my figure case; I even have to be careful with where I put my casualties, especially under time pressure (tournaments).

And, as Perfect Organism pointed out, the units that make mech IG work do not work well for infantry IG. Therefore, you can't just take your mech IG army, take away their tanks, and add a few more squads; you actually need to be using an entirely different army. And that's a daunting prospect.

Last year, I repainted and reorganized an entire 200-model IG infantry army in 4 months as part of an escalation league. It didn't kill me, but it came close.

Caitsidhe
20-06-2011, 15:12
I can only say that I personally have never lost to the "meat shield" guard. The caveat is I play CSM and that kind of army is pretty easy for us to kill.

Juggernaut101
20-06-2011, 17:33
Im trying a assault IG list
40 vets w/shotguns in a Storm lord
2 valks with karskin assault troops
2 hellhounds
the rest of my guard in ranks w hvy wpns

I get wrecked most of the time but its great to see my opponent look at me like im nuts in the assault

actually cheer when i gt to l kill a space marine....even though i lose 6 guys doing it:)

This made me LOL hard:D
Those Vets def know how to do the "drive by" IG style.


I must agree with cost in terms of money issue here, and in honesty transporting the army can be a royal pain in the neck I freely admit it...i need 2 large cases to transport mine but i hadnt noticed the subtle sort of push within the codex towards mech armies until it's been pointed out here....

thank you all for your feedback so far please keep it coming

The mech got bumped because everybody and their mother now has access to some form of transport and the Chims just got MUCH better in the latest codex. That "Leaf Blower" list did the rest so the internet tends to go nuts in regards to mech IG.

Personally I only played a single pure footslogger game with my IG and managed a draw. Seeing that I played against a combined Necron/SW list I rank that as a good outcome especially as I brought ZERO heavy weapons but took "crap" like a Penal Legion squad and 3x10 Stormtroopers. :rolleyes:

Whoever says IG can't win needs a bloody reality check.

I mostly use up my FA and HS slots (no squadrons though) and use a whopping amount of ONE Chimera. The tanks usually get upgrades/sponsons and even at low point battles (say 1500pts) I still have enough points left over for special and hvy. weapon teams and and the odd Vet or Penal Legion squad. Half of the foot sloggers guard the tanks (giving them cover) while the other half runs around usually yelling things like "bayonett chaaaarge!!!".
Point is I'm playing a very mediocre IG list AND do stupid things with my Infantry and I still usually draw. I even managed to annihilate several SM lists while I was never completely wiped out; actually I wasn't even close...


You can totally go for the pure foot IG IF you are willing to spend the cash/time for them. I surely looks damn impressive on the field and is a highly rewarding project to boot. Just be prepared to spend a LOT of time setting up and moving and re-moving and packing and :D ...man, I'm drenched in sweat just thinking about it.

Juggernaut