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adam-stronach
19-06-2011, 02:52
executioners are they worth their points?
are they effctive?

i am not that great of warhammer player so
help is very wanted.

Don Zeko
19-06-2011, 03:37
Worth their points? I suppose so. Better investment than Black Guard, Witch Elves, Corsairs, Spearelves, or Cold One Knights? Absolutely not.

shakedown47
19-06-2011, 04:06
Like most specialized units, it depends on what you're pitting them against. If you put them into a fight between a goblin spear horde, an elf spear unit, marauders, etc., you can pretty much sit back and watch as they get slaughtered off the board. However, they should be more than able to take a chaos knight charge on the chin and come out laughing (and so of course that goes for any knight unit, except perhaps Brettonian) and, if they're able to get a flank charge off, shouldn't do horribly against chaos warriors and possibly even chosen.

However, like Don Zeko suggested, why not take black guard (like everyone else does, unfortunately) with the AP banner and not worry about picking and choosing fights. Or take witch elves (and the cauldron, obviously) and watch your opponents shrink away in fear at the prospect of getting into combat with a unit of maddened I6 she-elves with 20+ poisoned KB attacks to the front (that re-roll to hit, no less.)

Really the one true saving grace for executioners would be the ASF banner as it would allow their Str 6 attacks to happen at a very high initiative and eternal hatred will still allow re-rolls for a turn.

Daemonia
19-06-2011, 06:40
I remember fielding them back in the day so I had an excuse to yell "EXECUTE HIM!" to improve my chance of getting a Killing Blow. Compared to your other Special choices I would say this is probably the best use for them I'm afraid...unless you really love the models (like I always have- one of my favourites in the entire Dark Elf range).

As said though, they are wonderful against Knights but there are still probably better choices. Their low points cost though (relatively!) means you are fairly likely to get their points back if you use them in conjunction with something else or bait a strong unit of cavalry into range.

decker_cky
19-06-2011, 06:40
Depends...with a cauldron in the army, I think they're definitely worth it. There's other things that look better, and magic can boost a lot of units to hit harder than them (with all the easy dice DE have access to), but when magic won't cut it, I think executioners compare very favourably to the other elites.

The only thing is that you need to take large units of them. 30+ ideally, though they make an excellent horde if you have 40 or more of them. A horde boosted by the cauldron is the hardest hitting unit in the DE list and will cleave through most everything.

adam-stronach
19-06-2011, 06:41
i ask because don't have any metal in my army save for character and hydras,
and thinking of adding more metal.

cauldron eh?.....

sulla
19-06-2011, 08:50
In an army of low strength multi attack units like DE, it's nice to have one hig strength unit like exies or knights. In my armies, I prefer exies, mainly because they look cool and I have had a unit of 35 sub-par infantry for the last 10 years that are finally in their element.

Yes, you need a cauldron for them, but for me, this is no sacrifice because a cauldron was what I wanted for theme and because it's the best place for the BSB. Practically, it is always better to use the ward save on them over any other buff.

In games, they have outperformed BG and witches consistently for me, having the advantage of outlasting the smaller BG units and not needing magic to deal with enemy elites like witches. This is a big advantage, not only for those games where your sorceress blows herself up on the first turn casting a 2 dice miasma or something else trivial, but also for adding flexibility to your lines by letting you buff another unit or... gasp... taking a lore other than shadow on your main caster.

adam-stronach
20-06-2011, 03:26
i do't quite get you are saying i'm a little slow.

tmarichards
20-06-2011, 03:45
Being worth their points cost, which I'd say they are, is not the same as being optimal, which they most certainly are not.

SideshowLucifer
20-06-2011, 04:13
I tend to use a horde of them for cracking high armored or high Toughness units. Witches work as well with the same amount of support though, so it all comes down to preference.

sulla
20-06-2011, 05:11
Being worth their points cost, which I'd say they are, is not the same as being optimal, which they most certainly are not.Yeah, I'd say that sums them up well. Being khainite, they can't get characters in there who can help defend them from magic or psychology. Those are big weaknesses.

But witches and BG have weaknesses too. For BG, it's the small numbers. Even conventional shooting can make them irrelevant. Witches don't have that weakness, but they can be manipulated due to frenzy by a savvy opponent.

You can make a far more focussed army by ditching the exies for either of the other two, but in my experience, taking them doesn't hurt your chances of winning.

decker_cky
20-06-2011, 05:26
Yeah, I'd say that sums them up well. Being khainite, they can't get characters in there who can help defend them from magic or psychology. Those are big weaknesses.

But witches and BG have weaknesses too. For BG, it's the small numbers. Even conventional shooting can make them irrelevant. Witches don't have that weakness, but they can be manipulated due to frenzy by a savvy opponent.

You can make a far more focussed army by ditching the exies for either of the other two, but in my experience, taking them doesn't hurt your chances of winning.

On the other hand, being Khainite, they can get stubborn from being near a cauldron (which you obviously including in the army :P), covering IMO the main addition you'd want for a unit like them.

sulla
20-06-2011, 19:26
Yup, and since I always bring at least one cauldron (loving the double cauldron list right now), the synergy is nice. It's not such a good synergy with witches. They need to be winning every combat they fight or they become much worse (which makes the stubborn less valuable), and they run the risk of being forced to pursue out of range of the cauldron.

The big weakness of exies is pyschology. Unfortunately there are no solutions to that other than not sucking on your dice.

adam-stronach
20-06-2011, 23:29
The big weakness of exies is pyschology. Unfortunately there are no solutions to that other than not sucking on your dice.

i see , its good then that i have never realy had a problem psy cology before.
"lucky dice"

i know this is off topic but are shades worth there cost?

Maoriboy007
20-06-2011, 23:38
You're better off asking whats not worth the points in a DE army, its a much sorter list.

adam-stronach
20-06-2011, 23:40
ok then whats not worth it in the DE army book?

theunwantedbeing
21-06-2011, 00:06
ok then whats not worth it in the DE army book?

Most of the magic items...you'll only bother using a handful.
Malekith.
Assasins tend to be quite poor now.
Small executionair units.
Tullaris.
Small black guard units.
Kouran.
Bolt Throwers.

That's generally it.
Although maybe cold one chariots could be lumped into that given how many giant hoardes people take.

Executionairs need to be in big units like any fairly squishy model armed with a weapon that makes them fight last.
A hoarde formation is very handy.
Ignore the champion upgrade and now you can freely allocate 9 attacks on any character of your choosing that foolishly engages the front of your unit.
Or you can simply fight the unit and do horrific damage.

decker_cky
21-06-2011, 00:29
There's no disadvantage to buying a champion (they no longer have to accept).

Maoriboy007
21-06-2011, 02:49
Most of the magic items...you'll only bother using a handful..

only because the handful is obscenely good, not really because the rest are so bad.


Assasins tend to be quite poor now They still do the job they were meant to, showing up in an inconvineint place and wiping out some poor sap of a character. Now they just take the same chance that anyone whoo gets into combat does, at least he gets the near certainty of putting out some pain before he goes down.


Small executionair units
Small black guard unitsWell any small elite unit in any army really.


Bolt Throwers.Yes everyone else (sans empire and dwarves) wishes their army could have cannons too...

Don Zeko
21-06-2011, 03:38
only because the handful is obscenely good, not really because the rest are so bad.

Yes and no. You've got a handful of extremely good items, decent-to-mediocre ones, and then a few that as underpowered as the Pendant et al are overpowered. Have you ever seen the Web of Shadows used in a game?

sulla
21-06-2011, 05:55
It's probably not the items that are the problem really. The real issue is the guys you stick them on. Hags can't carry anything, so they're out for starters. The best items for the dreadlord are the pendant and probably the stubborn crown, which limits the available comboes. Similarly sorceress want to contribute to the magic phase, and stay out of combat units, so they don't care about a lot of the items. That only leaves masters, and 8th edition has nerfed combat characters (especially t3 ones) to oblivion. Step up, and the extra ranks attacking mean almost all your item allowance would need to be spent on protective items for an infantry character... and then you would almost always be better off with the extra 130+pts or so spent on extra warm bodies instead of a feeble 3 extra heroic attacks. The template rules and boosted accuracy of war machines have nerfed manticore or chariot mounted fighters too, and the fast cav rules make light horse mounted characters of limited utility, so that only really leaves the pegasus or cold one as realistic options for a master.

All these things mean that those... more wacky options like the web or chillblade have their problems compounded by tacking them onto an overpriced, fragile character. It's hard to get a read on whether they would be worthwhile or not if the guys that used them weren't so expensive and so poor at their designated role.

Maoriboy007
21-06-2011, 20:36
Fair enough points , but most armies are in the same boat in tose regards. DE still have the good basic building blocks given to them in 7th.

popisdead
21-06-2011, 22:34
Yes,

With hatred they can guarentee a certain amount of kills for the first combat vs general infantry.

While Corsairs are cheaper, core, and can pump out more attacks the addition of Mindrazor is what makes them brutal (and rolling a 2-3 for Winds of Magic that turn really sucks).

adam-stronach
21-06-2011, 23:29
why a dark pegasus?
what upgrades would you give shades?

tmarichards
22-06-2011, 01:28
Dark Pegasus is for the extra pip of movement and the ability to charge over intervening units. Makes him nigh impossible to redirect.

Shades should get additional hand weapons and nothing else. Even light armour is a waste of points, the trick to not losing them comes in the movement and deployment phases. They should rarely get attacked unless you want them to be bait.

adam-stronach
22-06-2011, 07:39
what are shades used for?

tmarichards
22-06-2011, 08:18
Killing hobbies.

sulla
22-06-2011, 14:17
what are shades used for?Great shooters, manouverable, can be devestating in combat if buffed with mindrazor and even without it, they kill war machine crews (even dwarven ones) in a single phase.

They have huge synergies with the lore of shadows, being a multiple attack, high ws unit who can also shoot. Since the most competitive DE builds use shadow, this makes them a solid choice in those forces.

Malorian
22-06-2011, 14:41
I think a horde of executioners would be amazing.

The DE army doesn't have much that hits hard and so basically executioners fill in the role that black orcs did in their last book: the primary hard hitting unit.

In 8th it's all about the killing potential and in executioners vs black guard you simply get more out of the executioners. The extra attack of the black guard is partly wasted when in ranks and they can't even get to horde size.

If I played DE (don't tempt me!) my center unit would be a horde of executioners every singe time.

adam-stronach
23-06-2011, 00:24
but it costs a ton..... :(


whats size of each unit?

Malorian
23-06-2011, 04:00
Cost in money or points?

In my orc army combat units are typically 400-500 points.

If you want to be effective in 8th you have to be big and hurt hard. The bigger you are the harder you hit (horde) and the harder you are to take out (point denial),

tezdal
23-06-2011, 04:17
Who cares if they are worth it, most gorgeous models in DE range!

adam-stronach
23-06-2011, 05:06
Cost in money or points?
,

it's money.

Malorian
23-06-2011, 05:27
it's money.

Dark elves are defunked high elves. Paint some swordmasters black and off you go, and thanks to the starter set you can get tons of them for cheap.

Infekted
23-06-2011, 14:48
Black Guard are way better than Execs. The only bad thing about BGs is the limit of 20.
Stubborn, Warrior Elite, Immune to Psychology, WS5, I6, Ld9. All combine to a unit that does 16 S4 armour piercing attacks, most of which hit every round, and usually hit first. They are unlikely to run away due to the stubborn and immune to psych. An unkillable dreadlord in them makes them even more resilient.
The only benefit of the Execs is the hording, and you'll probly lose so many before they even get to hit that they wont be a horde anymore.
I'd rather take two units of 20 BG than one horde of 40 Execs.

Malorian
23-06-2011, 15:04
Black Guard are way better than Execs. The only bad thing about BGs is the limit of 20.
Stubborn, Warrior Elite, Immune to Psychology, WS5, I6, Ld9. All combine to a unit that does 16 S4 armour piercing attacks, most of which hit every round, and usually hit first. They are unlikely to run away due to the stubborn and immune to psych. An unkillable dreadlord in them makes them even more resilient.
The only benefit of the Execs is the hording, and you'll probly lose so many before they even get to hit that they wont be a horde anymore.
I'd rather take two units of 20 BG than one horde of 40 Execs.

The limit of 20 is HUGE.

Stubborn doesn't matter when you actually win cmobat.

Warrior elite doesn't matter when you win combat and break then in the first round because you've done so much damage.

ItP doesn't mean much when you have high leadership anyway. Worse yet it means you can't flee.

Both units are WS5, so that's a non-issue.

Hitting first means very little in 8th unless you are going to reduce attacks.


In the end I see two different kind of targets: weak targets and strong targets.

Weak targets will be easily taken care of with the 25% core you have to take (spearmen/corssbowmen), but the strong targets (T4+ and/or better armor) are best taken on with the executioner's much higher strength, and since enemy characters are typically in these elite units the killing blow plays a big role.

Infekted
23-06-2011, 16:10
If you do not break them and run them down then hitting first does make a massive difference in a meat grinder combat. So does warrior elite. A massive massive difference. With BG you can usually rely on having something like 75-87% of their attacks hitting ALL the time.
To crack high armour/toughness troops, massive amounts of attacks (witches/frenzied corsairs) with the killing blow blessing from the CoB usually does wonders. And thats not even thinking about having hydra back up..
Experience has shown me Immune to Psychology is pure gold. Best way to pass a leadership test is to not have to take it in the first place.

Tarian
23-06-2011, 16:19
The problem with 20 man units is that they will suffer against very large units, as they will be unable to break Steadfast of other units as well. Granted, Black Guard are very good, but sometimes quantity has a quality of its own. (I.e. Skaven Slaves)

Malorian
23-06-2011, 16:33
If you do not break them and run them down then hitting first does make a massive difference in a meat grinder combat. So does warrior elite. A massive massive difference. With BG you can usually rely on having something like 75-87% of their attacks hitting ALL the time.
To crack high armour/toughness troops, massive amounts of attacks (witches/frenzied corsairs) with the killing blow blessing from the CoB usually does wonders. And thats not even thinking about having hydra back up..
Experience has shown me Immune to Psychology is pure gold. Best way to pass a leadership test is to not have to take it in the first place.

I like how you say black guard are good when combined with other units, as if these same things don't apply to executioners.


Against anything with WS4 or worse, and toughness 4 or worse, and with an armor save of 4+ or worse, executioners kill an average of 22.2 in the first round. It would have to be a pretty serious unit to not break after that. And you don't even need to catch them. If they rally you just charge again and once again hatred is all you need rather than elite warrior.

Not to mention that the best thing to have in a grind situation is numbers, and black guard just can't get that. You can say you can have 2 units of 20 to the 1 unit of 40, but you just can't always bring both units to bear at the same time.

decker_cky
23-06-2011, 16:54
Black guard are very good, but the limit of 20 really hurts them.

Executioners are stubborn too in most cases (so long as you include an obvious choice).

Immune to psychology is a negligible advantage in 8th.

Also, if you include the unkillable dreadlord in 20 black guard, then that unit costs more than 40 executioners.

Don Zeko
23-06-2011, 18:14
I like how you say black guard are good when combined with other units, as if these same things don't apply to executioners.


Against anything with WS4 or worse, and toughness 4 or worse, and with an armor save of 4+ or worse, executioners kill an average of 22.2 in the first round. It would have to be a pretty serious unit to not break after that. And you don't even need to catch them. If they rally you just charge again and once again hatred is all you need rather than elite warrior.

Not to mention that the best thing to have in a grind situation is numbers, and black guard just can't get that. You can say you can have 2 units of 20 to the 1 unit of 40, but you just can't always bring both units to bear at the same time.

This would all be much more persuasive if Shadow magic wasn't a staple of competitive Dark Elf armies, or if our lack of a dice cap didn't mean that you can, in fact, be confident that you'll get irresistible force.

Malorian
23-06-2011, 18:36
This would all be much more persuasive if Shadow magic wasn't a staple of competitive Dark Elf armies, or if our lack of a dice cap didn't mean that you can, in fact, be confident that you'll get irresistible force.

What would you rather be spending magic dice on: Helping your elite units actually do their jobs, or helping out the core that you are forced to take anyway?

tmarichards
23-06-2011, 19:04
I prefer to combine the 2- Corsairs with an extra attack from the Cauldron and then Mindrazor them. Easily makes them one of the best units in the game (4 S8 I5 attacks each).

w3rm
24-06-2011, 00:03
I prefer to combine the 2- Corsairs with an extra attack from the Cauldron and then Mindrazor them. Easily makes them one of the best units in the game (4 S8 I5 attacks each).

Exactly. 50 Corsairs w/ SSS + Couldron of Extra attack + mindrazor is a much more effective unit than excetioners can ever be.

ASL means against other hordes will maul you before you can strike. A swordmaster, plague monk w/ plague banner, bloodletter, daemonette, Maurader horde with flails horde will do 20 wounds to you before you can even strike and then unless your taking 50 executioners then your combat power is going to be seriously diminished.

Plus they don't really benefit from lore of shadow very well unlike all other units in the delf list. Not great synergy.

adam-stronach
24-06-2011, 04:20
as it is i am asking these questions to see what i should get to bolster my small force. i don't have any special other than 15 cold knights.
got them used.

tmarichards
24-06-2011, 08:49
Exactly. 50 Corsairs w/ SSS + Couldron of Extra attack + mindrazor is a much more effective unit than excetioners can ever be.

ASL means against other hordes will maul you before you can strike. A swordmaster, plague monk w/ plague banner, bloodletter, daemonette, Maurader horde with flails horde will do 20 wounds to you before you can even strike and then unless your taking 50 executioners then your combat power is going to be seriously diminished.

Plus they don't really benefit from lore of shadow very well unlike all other units in the delf list. Not great synergy.

50 is a bit much, I go with 25. MSU is much better in my experience, and more fun to play with, than a couple of massive units.

Infekted
24-06-2011, 09:27
I disagree with that. Running them at 40+ gives them that edge of survivability. They can get in there, tear things up, take a bit of a pasting and still be standing at the end of the game.
You can say the same about the Execs but everytime I have tried it, people have nuked the hell out of them. People seem to be much more intimidated by Execs than Corsairs.
Horde of 40 corsairs, extrahand weps, frenzy banner, mind razor and either KB or 5+ ward blessing are sickening, I'd probly go with the ward unless the enemy has regen up. The extra attack blessing isn't a massive improvement as that horde is already doing 51 attacks... Saving 1/3 of your casualties is better than doing 1/5 more attacks imo.


as it is i am asking these questions to see what i should get to bolster my small force. i don't have any special other than 15 cold knights.
got them used.
I personally have had very little luck running large units of CoKs... I usually have better results running a cheapo 5-7 unit. And even then they can easily die a lot and its a lot of points for that to happen. Heavy Cav took a pasting in 8th ed.
So you have two choices. Black Guard or Execs. Finding the points to run CoKs and a horde of execs can be tricky. But my advice would be to play some test games and try them out. Use model representation untill you are comfortable with your choice. I would also advice saving some points for a small unit of shades. Those guys are pure annoyance and win.

adam-stronach
25-06-2011, 09:57
whigh special is best to buy first?

tmarichards
25-06-2011, 19:23
It really depends on what else you have in the army. For example, if you already have a block of Corsairs then a unit or 2 of 10 Shades with additional hand weapons are probablky your best bet. If you've already got some xbows for core, but no multi-attack infantry, then Witches are your friends.

Alternatively, if you're running without a Cauldron or Shadow magic, then you'll need Black Guard because they still work very very well without that support. With a Cauldron and Shadow, however, Corsairs start to do their job better, for cheaper, in bigger numbers.

Personally though, I consider units of 10 shades to be one of the best things you can get out of the DE book.

adam-stronach
26-06-2011, 00:20
i have 40 spears. my only combat unit. save a hydra.

tmarichards
26-06-2011, 07:46
Witch Elves will be a good investment then.

adam-stronach
26-06-2011, 21:07
i hear from a local DE player that they are over costed.

tmarichards
26-06-2011, 21:32
Under costed is probably more accurate, I'm starting to move more towards Corsairs as my main fighty unit and Witches as my monster killer/secondary unit.

w3rm
26-06-2011, 22:10
witches are great when couldron boosted. 5+ ward save in a horde of 30 striking before a lot of stuff especially when mindrazored can slice through anything! :D

adam-stronach
27-06-2011, 00:46
would you say i would need another anvil? which is the stongest hammer?

w3rm
27-06-2011, 13:55
IMO one of the best units is the 50 Corsairs with Additional Hand Weapons and the Sea Serpent Standard. With out support it is a nasty horde that can crank out 51 attacks. With support it is a unit that can take out almost anything in the game, especially with mindrazor or shadow hexes on your opponent. A couldron is mandatory in any dark elf list IMO so good for only 200 pts.

Like I said above 24-30 witch elves is a good unit but needs the 5+ ward from the couldron to stay alive long enough to reach combat.

sulla
27-06-2011, 14:28
witches are great when couldron boosted. 5+ ward save in a horde of 30 striking before a lot of stuff especially when mindrazored can slice through anything! :DI've had them bounce off 50 skellies and a tomb king in the last 2 battles I've played. Once they lose frenzy, they are poor.

There were other factors at play, but there always are in battles. Fact is, my executioners have outperformed my witches in 8th mainly because I haven't needed magic to help them out, so I can use it on the core instead, which need it far more.

Infekted
27-06-2011, 14:33
Aye, complete lack of armour really hurts against armies with a decent amount of shooting. Witches attract arrows like magnets..
I prefer them as small shock units.

w3rm
27-06-2011, 15:31
I agree they can be shot up very easily. But they can hit like a ton of bricks and are good at killing characters.

I still advocate the corsair horde very very highly.

Infekted
27-06-2011, 15:57
I would swap the poison attacks and +1I for that armour anyday tbh. Plus the slavers rule is plain sexy.
Corsairs synergise with the CoB and shadow extremely well. And they are core.
Which means you can fufill your core requirement with a kickass combat unit, and fill in the extra with shooting and spam (sac dagger fodder and warrior screens). Awesomeness.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
27-06-2011, 16:19
My horde of 30 execs never fail me on the field 5+ ward and stubborn from the CoB and they just start slaughtering.

adam-stronach
28-06-2011, 05:11
interesting i am intriged

adam-stronach
28-06-2011, 23:58
what about their monsters?

Trains_Get_Robbed
29-06-2011, 01:10
Killing hobbies.

I laughed so hard when I read this! :D:p Currently cleaning coke up off my laptop. :(

adam-stronach
01-07-2011, 06:31
will anyone tell me the highs and lows of thier monsters?

m1acca1551
01-07-2011, 06:37
Dragons/manticors are ok i guess, mine tend to get removed due to cannon fire fairly early in the game. Manticors are good if you want to go for a CC lord, but due to frenzy can be very unpredictable. Dragons are a little better.

Hyrdra's are what you will need, at the moment they are cheap in points, and very effective to boot. Arguably the most cost effective monster in the game

adam-stronach
01-07-2011, 06:44
i have 2 hydras.
what the problem with bolt throwers?

m1acca1551
01-07-2011, 07:05
Nothing is wrong with bolt throwers... in fact i think there great, 6 ST4 -3 saves will ruin most peoples day. Some people whine and moan about them because they are the same price of a cannon and do half the damage... or they don't have a template attack...

Tarian
01-07-2011, 07:10
They're only -2, and their best target, armored knights, went away for the most part.

Artinam
01-07-2011, 12:49
And why field Bolt throwers when you can get Hydra's.
I still fear those things...

Don Zeko
01-07-2011, 20:42
And why field Bolt throwers when you can get Hydra's.
I still fear those things...

The better question is "why field bolt throwers when you can get more repeater crossbowmen?" There's very little a bolt thrower can do that 10 crossbowmen can't.

adam-stronach
03-07-2011, 06:08
thanks to you all who have helped me in this thread:D. if ever have anything else to say please do.

jtrowell
03-07-2011, 10:20
The better question is "why field bolt throwers when you can get more repeater crossbowmen?" There's very little a bolt thrower can do that 10 crossbowmen can't.


- The bolt thrower can change facing without -1 to hit or needed a Ld test for a Fast reform (and your crossbowmen would only be 9 for the same cost if you include a musician to be able to fast reform)

- the bolt thrower has better range, meaning that it can assist from the other side of the board or fire at shot in short range more often. It can also sit on a hill being your main battle line and be in range the whole game where crossbowmen would probably not have any target for their first turn if your go first.

- being able to do the vanilla "S6 ignore armor penetrate ranks D3 multiwound" can sometimes be useful

- less frontage needed, so when your battleline is already saturated by your other units it is easier to add the bolt thrower that another unit with a frontage of 5 or 10

Are crowwbowmen more cost effective most of the time ? Yes
Are the repeater bolt throwers still useful ? Yes
Is the hydra an undercosted killer monster ? Do i need to answer that ?

For a stealth errata of what hydra should cost in 8th edition, and that my group will apply for our games, just look at the hydra previewed for Storm of Magic : cost starting at 220 points, beforing adding the hatred upgrade, and this is without the beastmasters. If you add 50+ points to the cost of the hydra they will still be very effective, but having 2 of them each game could become less automatic, leaving sometimes a place for the bolt throwers.

sninsch
03-07-2011, 12:27
For a stealth errata of what hydra should cost in 8th edition, and that my group will apply for our games, just look at the hydra previewed for Storm of Magic : cost starting at 220 points, beforing adding the hatred upgrade, and this is without the beastmasters. If you add 50+ points to the cost of the hydra they will still be very effective, but having 2 of them each game could become less automatic, leaving sometimes a place for the bolt throwers.

in the same errata give bolt throwers a price drop(20-30 points) and a third crew member, that's fair.

Artinam
03-07-2011, 12:33
In my opinion the Bolt thrower doesn't even need a price drop, the other choices of the Dark Elfs with which it competes in role are just cheap.

sninsch
03-07-2011, 12:41
In my opinion the Bolt thrower doesn't even need a price drop, the other choices of the Dark Elfs with which it competes in role are just cheap.

100 points for a bolt thrower with 2 crew men fair? Come on, normal bolt throwers cost 35 to 45 with 3 crew members, they have only bs3 and no multishoot, but cost significant less. It's a rare warmaschine for 100 points with little damage output(if compared to other warmaschines).

theunwantedbeing
03-07-2011, 13:11
In my opinion the Bolt thrower doesn't even need a price drop, the other choices of the Dark Elfs with which it competes in role are just cheap.

18 crossbowmen with sheilds and a musician
12 shades with extra hand weapons
18 harpies
Two naked level 1 mages
9 dark riders with crossbows

That's what two bolt throwers compete with in the dark elf army.
Of all those choices, only the two mages are actually less survivable, but they can sit in a unit being largely untouchable and can usually do far more damage than a bolt thrower ever could.

Elven bolt throwers are just something that suffered with the change to 8th edition. (note this includes high elven bolt thowers as well)

The only benefit they have now, is that 48" range.

decker_cky
03-07-2011, 15:55
Dark Elf bolt throwers are pretty much exactly as resilient as they were in 7th. They just were never a particularly good choice, and all bolt throwers got worse in 8th.

Don Zeko
03-07-2011, 16:26
Dark Elf bolt throwers are pretty much exactly as resilient as they were in 7th. They just were never a particularly good choice, and all bolt throwers got worse in 8th.

They were competitive with other choices in the book in 6th edition, when crossbows weren't armor piercing, hydras sucked, and crossbowmen cost 15 points per model with shields. Since then, everything else in the book has gotten better while they're remained the same.

tmarichards
03-07-2011, 21:12
I laughed so hard when I read this! :D:p Currently cleaning coke up off my laptop. :(

Tis the truth though... I have said it before and will say it again, for their points units,of 10 shades with ahws are the best choice in the whole book

adam-stronach
06-07-2011, 04:23
intrigueing.