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Adept
04-04-2006, 14:20
We haven't had one of these for, oh, three days now, and with the upcoming release of Codex: Orks I thought now was a good time for another beating of this old horse.

How do you, or how would you like to see Orks in 40K?

Personally, I don't like the silly 'goofy' nature that orks used to have. I prefer serious, choppy orks.

Now, this isn't to say I want intelligent, noble, but misunderstood Orks. I just want Orks that are savage, cruel, and bloodthirsty without a trace of humour. I don't think badly spelled English has any place in their Codex, and units which are blatantly "Look at me! I'm an obvious rip off! How funnny am I?!" should be abolished. Ork units should either be given Orkish names in the Orkish language, translations of the Orkish names, or Imperial designations.

*dons flame retardant suit*

Well then Warseers, have at it!

dneff23
04-04-2006, 14:37
I agree I prefer the savage Ork :evilgrin:

TheSonOfAbbadon
04-04-2006, 14:42
I agree, there are far too many Orks called things like Wazzgob Blackteef, or Whizzgiva Lovegrubz.

They should talk in a simple but ancient language and have savage sounding but correctly spelled names [none of this 'A' and 'Z' crap].

I'd also like 'Waaagh' to be revised to 'Raaagh' or 'Graagh' as 'Waaagh' doesn't sound savage but silly.

HeraldoftheGods
04-04-2006, 14:42
I certainly prefer the savage to the Space clowns of 2nd. However, I do love the Orks casual disregard for the value of life, and their creative "this should work, but what does this red button do?" outlook on life.

It would be a shame if they lost all of their humour.

Disagree on the Waagh bit - you get a great big green slab of muscle belowing his lungs out whilst running at you with a huge axe and till him that he sounds silly. It only sounds silly when coming out of the mouths of kids, out of the mouth of a full grown bull ork it would be a little more intimidating. The Ork Nob at the start of the Dawn of War movie yells Waaagh as the boyz charge the enemy, and it sounds very brutal.

intellectawe
04-04-2006, 14:53
Look at the cover of the ork codex. Is it me, or has these two prks gone against the grain of the ork feel of retardness and unseriousness? These two orks are ready to rip your face off, and somehow look actually evil and savage.

Part of the reason orks have sucked as an army is because its developers, satan curse them, always made their rules around their retardedness. Which is fine if warhammer40k was just a novel, but its a game with rules. And rules need to work, not just be "fun" all the time. I am sick of nothing ever working in my ork army because the writers felt like being **** clowns.

Get rid of the Bozo Clown orks.

lord_blackfang
04-04-2006, 15:00
I'd vote for "straightforward." That's what Orks are. They know what they want to do and they do it. No angst, no doubts.

Where are you people getting this clown thing from? I don't see anything like that in the Orks. They think it's funny when their mekboy neighbor blows himself up, yes. And they enjoy kicking grots around. That's about as humorous as Orks get. I don't see them wearing oversized shoes and big red noses that make a noise when you squeeze them.

I think a lot of people have merely heard that Orks were "the funny race" from someone else and perpetuate this opinion without actually having any proof.

Colonial Rifle
04-04-2006, 15:10
There is no reason why they can't be both (infact they already do with Goffs clan). Much Ork humour derives from their disregard for personal safety and the lives of grots - it's funny when you read it on the page, but pretty cruel and harsh if you think about.

Personally, I couldn't think of anything WORSE than grim, Uber-serious space orks. Then they would be nothing more than green CSM's or Black Templars. 40K needs more variety, not less.

This kind of reminds me of the 'I hate Tau because their not gothic enough' argument. Seriously, if you don't like the look/ethos, don't play them! Why do we want to force a more 'serious' approach and what would it achieve?

Changing the ork 'Waaagh'?!?!? Now that's pure heresy.

giner
04-04-2006, 15:15
They should be silly but, with a chance of stuff going very very right. I don't want Orks like every other army Orks fight for fun not to win territory, this should be represented.

Note to self: Model orks with big shoes and red noses.:angel:

intellectawe
04-04-2006, 15:15
I'd vote for "straightforward." That's what Orks are. They know what they want to do and they do it. No angst, no doubts.

Where are you people getting this clown thing from? I don't see anything like that in the Orks. They think it's funny when their mekboy neighbor blows himself up, yes. And they enjoy kicking grots around. That's about as humorous as Orks get. I don't see them wearing oversized shoes and big red noses that make a noise when you squeeze them.

I think a lot of people have merely heard that Orks were "the funny race" from someone else and perpetuate this opinion without actually having any proof.

The first Ork codex is labeled "Ere we go!" That doesnt sound serious at all. Sounds like comedy hour at GW to me.

Ork language is full of British language humoUr. They sound FAR from serious and savage.

Look at the second edition ork codex. there is NO WAY you can tell me they were not suposed to be the bungling idiots of 40k. Everything humorously blows up in their faces.

I dont see Tau kicking Vespids around. I dont see IG kicking ratlings around for "fun". I dont see chaos kicking cultists around. I see chaos killing innocent people. I see Dark Eldar torturing humans. I see the Imperium disecting xenos to study them.

Orks kick snotlings and gretchnig and use them as sports items (2nd ed codex).

Harlequins are the true CLOWNS of 40k, but they are not the doofis retards that the orks are fluffed to be. Harlequins have serious plays based on thier hertitage. Orks kick stuff and go WAAAAGH and blow themselves up.

And yes, Orks do wear paint. Mine aw well just give them clown shoes.

Faust
04-04-2006, 15:32
Well I suppose it's time to comeback to these forums and post......

Orks I believe are anything from silly. Think for a moment, yes the speech is rather odd and hard to read, but they are speaking in Orkish, which is how they would communicate to humans or that which speaks whatever the main language of the imperium is which I think is English but not the main point.

Eldar both Dark and Craftworld talk in English but they have their own language to their own, as is Tau also. So remember when GW writes orkish language they are merely writing it as it would sound to us, not what they would actually speak.


I'd also like 'Waaagh' to be revised to 'Raaagh' or 'Graagh' as 'Waaagh' doesn't sound savage but silly.

For this bit I digress to a great degree. Like it was stated before, think of a Kodiak bear, when is growls, bellows or what have you, is it not like a Waagh? Or when ancient warriors would yell as they charged, or even like a solider today yells when he charges per se to gain a personification of a greater being onto what he/she is charging..... As with orks, who are able to crush a man's skull by just squeezing hard? Also remember that Orks are more common than Space Marines in the standard IG trooper. So putting all this together when 200+ of Orks start to charge an IG trooper who is told all of these stories about Orks and then hears them all bellow out a 'Waagh' as they charge at him with large lumps of metal that they swing in the same fashion as cleaver, that the IG trooper would not be afraid. ( I used IG because in the game they are more numerous than SM, even though those two are swapped in REAL GAME terms)

As for the Orks being silly again I think that this is merely an oversite....Think again that an ork is born knowing most of what he will know for his life, from a spore mind you. Also orks fight to fight, fighting makes them bigger, they pick on the smaller, sorta like a universal bully to everyone...While Dark Eldar torture people through Terror Strikes, Chaos plans to decite and internal distruption and 'chaos' ( no pun intended) Orks come without decite, guile, or under the cover of darkness, no they come maybe in full daylight, saying here we are, we are coming, and theres nothing you can do about this. Personally I would think that this type of outlook makes Orks far more scary than Dark Eldar or Chaos. Take your pick, but an army that just wants to kill for killing sake and doesnt really concern itself with injury (which mind you they regenerate) is far more scary than some army that requires decite.

Also again with the lines about grots and kicking them around, again Bullies. Orks fight to get bigger, Chaos Marines to not get harder the more they fight, Dark Eldar are the same, the more an Ork fights the bigger and badder he gets, and if an Ork invasion fails, this is where it gets really scary, all that time they were fighting, invading, they spore, they lay more spores, and you can't really be sure that there is no Ork presence anymore, because under a rock, or a damp place where fungus can grow, you might have Orks breeding, which IMHO brings the really scary point about Orks, that they are never really gone.




Faust

Captain Brown
04-04-2006, 15:44
Savage all the way. There is nothing funny about seven foot killers (who take bolter rounds and keep moving) charging you with Choppas and chanting about their love of fighting.

Funny race theme probably was a legacy of the infamous 'Red Period' of GW painting.

CB

Sureshot05
04-04-2006, 15:57
I've always been of a mixed opinion. Definitely the savage look and feel is just much better, but I feel its gone to serious.

I've enjoyed ideas which were just Orkish and sound funny, but don't have to be funny to an Ork. Pulsa rockets, shock attack guns, and madboyz to name a couple.

All of these can be done seriously, but still have a certain amount of amusement attached. for Orks, the shock attack gun is a brilliant weapon and highly effective. Course the basic principle of teleporting little Snotlings into a terminators suit so they go mad is just funny to think of, but terrifying in reality.

Personally, I'd really like it if they appeased both sides of the argument by pushing the silliness into the grotz and the seriousness more into the Orks. Give the Grotz comic things and ideas, but give the orks the serious savage stuff.

ObiWan
04-04-2006, 15:58
Definitely savage, they may keep their humor, but not necesarily reflected in the game rules, as it happens in other races like the marines.

Edit: I mean rules, not marine humor, which is basically non-existent :)

Also, the Waaagh should stay, I don't see the problem with the way they speak "gothic", it can be tought of as a problem with the pronunciation of the words, if you take into accout the huge tusks, you probably would have a hard time speaking "gothic" correctly, too.

Yodhrin
04-04-2006, 15:59
Because of course it has to be all or nothing. You know, 'cause they abolished that whole "middle ground" thing in the eighteen-hundreds :rolleyes:

Orks are not "bumbling" funny anymore. They are funny in the "laugh or I pound your face in" way that bullies were in school. They are cruel, mean, petty and generally just total bastards. Orks are not just a green version of Chaos, and reducing them to the kind of "arrg, me kill, me evil, me eat babies" personality that some of you seem to want would eliminate their character and do them a great disservice.

Oh, and as for any yanks who want to critisise "British language humoUr", you should come over and yell something like "chavs are a bunch of pussy slags" in a pub. That "WAAAAAAAGH!" sounds a whole lot scarier when it's issuing from the mouth of a six foot, 16 stone football hooligan with a broken bottle in his hand and a few mates behind him, rather than a bunch of teenage kids :p

Karloth Valois
04-04-2006, 16:08
I like the savage artistic style of the current orks. I also like the silliness of the 2nd ed orks though, the idea of crazy weapons and different clans dressing different and being a lot more characterful is cool.

The thing is when you talk about the sillyier 2nd ed orks, people automatically think of the slightly too colourful and a bit rounded and goofy 2nd ed minatures. I'd like to see a mix of both myself, the 2nd ed silliness incorporated into the art and sculpting style of the 3rd/4th ed minatures.

cerealkiller195
04-04-2006, 16:14
funny is what other people that remember 2nd ed tell noobs who perpetuate this myth and find humor in the smallest rule to justify themselves.

one time i was playing and this kid ( say kid for anyone younger than me of more than 3 years) said "hey you don't yell WAAAGH" i told him "not every ork player is the same". I have been playing orks since the a few months after the release of the 3rd ed rulebook! I actually saw a second ed game being played a couple of weeks before the release.

I for one don't think orks are funny rather the players are very laid back and most times jovial individuals. We don't see a loss when bucketloads of grots die to rapid fire that an overethusiastic marine player thinks its some sort of great victory. We don't get horribly frustrated when an "uber expensive" unit dies.. why cause the only squads of 200-300pts+ that we have numbers more than 5 guys!!!

I admit though i have quite a fond attachment to all the RT & 2nd ed Ork minis i have collected over the years. Hopefully when REAL rumors of the ork dex come out giving details/special rules (Summer 2007?) i will be able to build my dream army. Then again i might stray and build a totally new army with all the plastics that will be coming out... oh my!

Adept
04-04-2006, 16:15
Because of course it has to be all or nothing. You know, 'cause they abolished that whole "middle ground" thing in the eighteen-hundreds :rolleyes:

Ideally, yes. To be honest, most of the 'humour' in the Ork army is located in the names of things. Poorly spelled, and ripped off unit names is the big rub. Get rid of that, and things would be neat. Very neat.


Orks are not just a green version of Chaos, and reducing them to the kind of "arrg, me kill, me evil, me eat babies" personality that some of you seem to want would eliminate their character and do them a great disservice.

Their character should be more about infighting, desire to fight for it's own sake, and (importantly, IMHO) distance from Imperial influences. Like I said in my opening post, I think Ork unit names should either be pure orkish (not badly spelled english), translations of the orkish names (again, not badly spelled english) or Imperial designations like the Falcon and Hammerhead are.

Their imagery and models shouldn't scream deliberately look ramshackle. It should look effective, without looking machined or factory produced.

lord_blackfang
04-04-2006, 16:23
Their character should be more about infighting, desire to fight for it's own sake, and (importantly, IMHO) distance from Imperial influences. Like I said in my opening post, I think Ork unit names should either be pure orkish (not badly spelled english), translations of the orkish names (again, not badly spelled english) or Imperial designations like the Falcon and Hammerhead are.

So 'Ard Boyz is silly, change it to "Ork Heavy Infantry?" :eyebrows:
"Ork Grenadiers" is better than "Stikkbommaz?" :wtf:

And let's not forget Fastnoise the Mechanic, the Speed Addict special character.

Sandlemad
04-04-2006, 16:25
They should be inherently funny. C'mon, look at the kommandos. Stealth, with dynamite on a crossbow. Think of the grot bomb. A missile guided by a screaming, hyperactive goblin. These are things that would be atrocious if it were humans but are funny when it comes to the greenies.
They should be war to the point of absurdity. This is, by its very nature, dark. Their casual attitude to war and complete disregard for their own and anyone else's lives is, somehow, hilarious.

Interestingly, I find that the orks are so funny because their basic premise is so absurd and horrific.
A race that lives for nothing but war, that actually has war as its main form of recreation and a source of fun. If you don't laugh, then you'd have to be taken aback.

So, dark but funny, savage but cunning(ish), horrific but blackly hilarious.
And never, ever grim. That's not the orkish attitude. It's all fun to them.:evilgrin:


Their imagery and models shouldn't scream deliberately look ramshackle. It should look effective, without looking machined or factory produced.

Quite true. The whole "held together with spit and tape" has been taken too far in 3rd ed. It should look individual and, yes, ramshackle, but never to the point where it's just sheets of metal on sticks.
And I concur with the whole cockney accent thing. While I like it personally, it should be done with a relatively light touch and should keep them orky, something that hasn't been done recently. Ghazghull is good, Wazzgrub isn't.

Adept
04-04-2006, 16:28
So 'Ard Boyz is silly, change it to "Ork Heavy Infantry?" :eyebrows:
"Ork Grenadiers" is better than "Stikkbommaz?" :wtf:

And let's not forget Fastnoise the Mechanic, the Speed Addict special character.

Pretty much, yes.

At worst, Stick Bombers is better than Stikkbommaz

Deadite
04-04-2006, 16:37
Pretty much, yes.

At worst, Stick Bombers is better than Stikkbommaz


So...all you want are codexes written from the Imperial perspective?

Pretty bland outlook that.

If you don't play the race, don't bitch about the codex...

intellectawe
04-04-2006, 16:41
Oh, and as for any yanks who want to critisise "British language humoUr", you should come over and yell something like "chavs are a bunch of pussy slags" in a pub. p

Funny. I am brasilian. Nice assumption though.

Just play the game DOW, and listen to the stupidity they give orks. The british language is an awesome language, but not when its twisted to make orks sound retarded. Thats what I was getting at.


So...all you want are codexes written from the Imperial perspective?

Pretty bland outlook that.

If you don't play the race, don't bitch about the codex...

Actually yes. Everything is from Imperial perspective. Why do all the races have to speak English, or some form of Gothc English under the disguise of "speaking with the enemy".

Why shouldn't Imperial forces learn to speak Ork, Eldar, Deamon, etc...??

If the Ork codex wasn't driven from Imperial perspective, names would probably be, For Stikbommas, Grag'tupo'rarg.

Lame Duck
04-04-2006, 16:46
Orks should be made only s tiny winy iddie bittie bit more serious, i mean u gotta love a race that laughs (not giggles) or even better bellows as it kills and its comrades are blown to bits.

But some of the GW pieces of writing about orks annoys me.Did any one read WD300 battle report? the extract at the end where the warboss gets shot in the **** or something......

intellectawe
04-04-2006, 16:49
Orks should be made only s tiny winy iddie bittie bit more serious, i mean u gotta love a race that laughs (not giggles) or even better bellows as it kills and its comrades are blown to bits.

But some of the GW pieces of writing about orks annoys me.Did any one read WD300 battle report? the extract at the end where the warboss gets shot in the **** or something......

This is what I am talking about. It isn't just the written rules that make Orks funny retarded, but the perception over the years that Orks yell WAAAAAGH and Go Thumpin' 'n Krumpin on dem oomies!

My god, that sounds just horrible.

Orks need to be a TAD more serious. Ghazgul is the perfect example. He is an Ork, he doesnt do stoopid things, he is serious, and he gets things done. But then you have orks named Jarhead Wizzdrinker, and you wonder...

Adept
04-04-2006, 16:50
So...all you want are codexes written from the Imperial perspective?

Pretty bland outlook that.

If you don't play the race, don't bitch about the codex...

If it was written from the Orkish perspective, everything would be written in Orkish. And no one would be able to understand it. So that would be stupid.

Do you really think the Eldar word for their grav tanks is 'Falcon' or 'Fireprism'? Or the Tau actually use words like Hammerhead or Devilfish in everyday conversations?

No, they are imperial designations, or translations of the natural language. Only the Orks use badly spelled, badly pronounced Imperial names for their own units. The ork word for battlewagon is probably something completely unpronouncable. But battlewagon is the way an ork would try and explain it to a human. It's not the way a human would talk about it to another human, or the way an ork would talk about it to another ork. So I think it would be better to, as every other codex does, use either the orkish word or the imperial designation.

MadJackMcJack
04-04-2006, 16:52
Orkz are fine as they are. Making them more serious would make them more Imperial. The only thing Imperial about Orkz should be looted vehicles and Blood Axes

intellectawe
04-04-2006, 16:55
If it was written from the Orkish perspective, everything would be written in Orkish. And no one would be able to understand it. So that would be stupid.

Do you really think the Eldar word for their grav tanks is 'Falcon' or 'Fireprism'? Or the Tau actually use words like Hammerhead or Devilfish in everyday conversations?

No, they are imperial designations, or translations of the natural language. Only the Orks use badly spelled, badly pronounced Imperial names for their own units. The ork word for battlewagon is probably something completely unpronouncable. But battlewagon is the way an ork would try and explain it to a human. It's not the way a human would talk about it to another human, or the way an ork would talk about it to another ork. So I think it would be better to, as every other codex does, use either the orkish word or the imperial designation.

Yup. The fact thet Tau come from a desert homeworld, yet have everything named after fish, makes you realise that codexes are made from Imperial perspectives.

on the battlefield, a Marine would call an allied Tau's tank a hammerhead, and I am sure the Tau would ask (in english of course) "What 'Ammer'ead? It called Me'tura."

People play with the style and feel of the army. Line up 10 marines players, and none of them would be yelling and whooping, a few may say " Time to purge/cleane/kill the xenos". Line up 10 Tau players and watch how into the game they are without shouting, but instead calmly saying "For teh Greater Good". Line 10 ork players up and most of them will be acting all retarded saying stuff like "Time to thump U god oomie!" And "Ready fer da WAAAAGH??".

Orks are **** clowns.


Orkz are fine as they are. Making them more serious would make them more Imperial. The only thing Imperial about Orkz should be looted vehicles and Blood Axes

Why? Every other army out there are dead serious, yet they aren't like the Imperium. Orks are the only humor army in the game, which would be fine if their humor didnt give them such shittey rules. Making them serious would not make them anything like Imperium.

TheSonOfAbbadon
04-04-2006, 17:06
Funny. I am brasilian. Nice assumption though.

Just play the game DOW, and listen to the stupidity they give orks. The british language is an awesome language, but not when its twisted to make orks sound retarded. Thats what I was getting at.

Ahem, it's the ENGLISH language, not British.

Indeed, the Orks do sound like they're idiotic prats, not savage warriors. I think they need a noble and honourable air.

So instead of running into battle in plain veiw because 'wutz da point ov fightin' if no one can see ya?' they should be running into battle in plain veiw because it's honourable and to prove their strength.


Actually yes. Everything is from Imperial perspective. Why do all the races have to speak English, or some form of Gothc English under the disguise of "speaking with the enemy".

That's a good point, everything is from the Imperial Perspective because the Imperium is humanity and so are we. If everything was written in Eldar then we wouldn't be able to read it.

But, Orks do not have their own language, they [apparently] use really really bad English [as shown on the banners they have saying 'Waagh'] so GW needs to make one for them. Maybe something runic and norse-looking, the Norse were known for their savagery after all.


Why shouldn't Imperial forces learn to speak Ork, Eldar, Deamon, etc...??

Because Daemons just cackle and howl in their pit of eternal pain and darkness.

And I believe Imperial forces do learn alien languages, but I don't think they can read Eldar properly.


If the Ork codex wasn't driven from Imperial perspective, names would probably be, For Stikbommas, Grag'tupo'rarg.

That sounds very Tau to me, something like 'Chobass Sanochan' would sound more Orky to me... [the Chobass is onomatapeic[sp?] it's the sound of an explosion as Orks see it, cho-BASS!]

lord_blackfang
04-04-2006, 17:11
People play with the style and feel of the army. Line up 10 marines players, and none of them would be yelling and whooping, a few may say " Time to purge/cleane/kill the xenos". Line up 10 Tau players and watch how into the game they are without shouting, but instead calmly saying "For teh Greater Good". Line 10 ork players up and most of them will be acting all retarded saying stuff like "Time to thump U god oomie!" And "Ready fer da WAAAAGH??".

And Khorne players yell "Blood For the Blood God!" What's your point? Just that saying "Waaagh!" sounds stupider than saying "Greater Good" so obviously Orks are clowns? Please :rolleyes:



Why? Every other army out there are dead serious, yet they aren't like the Imperium. Orks are the only humor army in the game, which would be fine if their humor didnt give them such shittey rules. Making them serious would not make them anything like Imperium.

What ****** rules? Space Marines have weapons that blow up in your face too, you know. Orks, having no fear of death, are simply more willing to accept the risks of powerful but unreliable weaponry.

intellectawe
04-04-2006, 17:12
Ahem, it's the ENGLISH language, not British.

Indeed, the Orks do sound like they're idiotic prats, not savage warriors. I think they need a noble and honourable air.

So instead of running into battle in plain veiw because 'wutz da point ov fightin' if no one can see ya?' they should be running into battle in plain veiw because it's honourable and to prove their strength.



That's a good point, everything is from the Imperial Perspective because the Imperium is humanity and so are we. If everything was written in Eldar then we wouldn't be able to read it.

But, Orks do not have their own language, they [apparently] use really really bad English [as shown on the banners they have saying 'Waagh'] so GW needs to make one for them. Maybe something runic and norse-looking, the Norse were known for their savagery after all.



Because Daemons just cackle and howl in their pit of eternal pain and darkness.

And I believe Imperial forces do learn alien languages, but I don't think they can read Eldar properly.



That sounds very Tau to me, something like 'Chobass Sanochan' would sound more Orky to me... [the Chobass is onomatapeic[sp?] it's the sound of an explosion as Orks see it, cho-BASS!]

The fact that everythingis written for us to undestand is moot. That wasn't the point, but I can see that you do get the point.

Why are some Tau named under the Tau language, but others aren't?

And Orks have their own language. Once agian my friend, WAAAGH was just something created in the late 80's by developers to give Orks that stupid funny ha-ha feeling to them.

Humanity can learn other languages. It is just that GW makes it easy for players if everything is in English. Humans are powerful psykers. I am sure they can learn what an upside down triangle means.

And what do you think screaching and screaming the demons do are? Its their language. Just because a Dog barks, doesnt mean it isnt a language. Of course it is.


And Khorne players yell "Blood For the Blood God!" What's your point? Just that saying "Waaagh!" sounds stupider than saying "Greater Good" so obviously Orks are clowns? Please :rolleyes:



What ****** rules? Space Marines have weapons that blow up in your face too, you know. Orks, having no fear of death, are simply more willing to accept the risks of powerful but unreliable weaponry.

When Space Marines grab midget women and stick them in cannons to fire at the enemy, then come back to me about orks not being serious.

And yes, WAAAGH does sound stupider than saying "Blood for the Blood god and The Greater Good". One is about, basically, Satan and sacrificing souls and the other is a higher philosophical movement contrived by ethereal ideals. Orks just scream (not serious screams) and spit and bounce off things and fling thier younger cousins at the enemy in cannons and put band aids on their tanks.

Khaine's Messenger
04-04-2006, 17:20
How do you, or how would you like to see Orks in 40K?

The Unstoppable Force to the Guard's Immovable Wall. Orks are the archetypical Xenos Enemy. They combine a base level of beastiality and inhumanity with the ugly, blackened industrial underbelly of the typical Imperial forge. They are industrial strength death, a sign that even a malign force of nature, a bioweapon of sorts, is willing to bring out the big guns. They're to a forgeworld as a plague of locusts would be to the harvest. Savage? Perhaps. Stupid? Don't bet your life on it.

intellectawe
04-04-2006, 17:24
The Unstoppable Force to the Guard's Immovable Wall. Orks are the archetypical Xenos Enemy. They combine a base level of beastiality and inhumanity with the ugly, blackened industrial underbelly of the typical Imperial forge. They are industrial strength death, a sign that even a malign force of nature, a bioweapon of sorts, is willing to bring out the big guns. They're to a forgeworld as a plague of locusts would be to the harvest. Savage? Perhaps. Stupid? Don't bet your life on it.

Wow, your post blew me away! You get an award! Orks should be exactly how you describe them. I think Epic exemplifies the Ork feel better than 40k.

dneff23
04-04-2006, 18:51
Applauds Khaine's Messenger for his take on the Orks :D

Xhalax
04-04-2006, 18:54
I wouldn't say that Orks were stupid. Just savage.

Plsu they're aliens so their stream of thought shouldn't be all that easy for us to follow anyway....and to the outside observe who is non-Ork....it should seem stupid, even though it probably isn't.

Overall, I think that Orks get a bit of a bad rap as far as their intelligence goes.

intellectawe
04-04-2006, 18:59
I wouldn't say that Orks were stupid. Just savage.

Plsu they're aliens so their stream of thought shouldn't be all that easy for us to follow anyway....and to the outside observe who is non-Ork....it should seem stupid, even though it probably isn't.

Overall, I think that Orks get a bit of a bad rap as far as their intelligence goes.

Orks get a bad rap because of what we see in the game, not in fluff. I don't see any alien stream of thought when the ork codex has orks ramming their heas up against marines, throwing each other at the enemy, and yelling poorly mispelled words at each other. I am not trying to get their supposed fluff mixed up with their table top practicality. Its mainly how GW has painted them to be over ther years, so this stigma of idiot ork has stuck with the players forcefully.

Orks are supposed to be savage, but they aren't played off as such. They just seem to like bar fights and mugging each other till they get bigger. Seems like play ground bullies who are over grown to me more than instincual savages.

cerealkiller195
04-04-2006, 21:37
i think people are forgetting that the ork codex is HUGELY underpowered with the rise of not only revisions done to other armies but also just new dex's in general. We all know that for the most part the later the codex comes out the more power the codex is given (to help push sales of course, and yes there are exceptions).

They suffer particularly in tournamet scenes because of the addition of levels of winning that 4th ed has introduced. An ork army (footsloggers in particular) give up a good portion of their pts before they even make a dent on an enemy force and all that must peak in turn 4-5!

azimaith
04-04-2006, 22:27
I don't get it, orks don't participate in the "grim" future of 40k because to them it is *not grim*. Its a big freaking playground. They love fighting, its what they live for, its what their entire existence is for. Orks name things what they name things. Why get all irritated that orks take war lightly when thats what they do for entertainment.
The dark side of orks is what happens once a worlds been taken. The slavery, the barbaric cruelty and destitution of its once free citizens.

It may be funny to us to laugh as orks hide behind gretchin or stomp on them to get through difficult terrain. But under that theres an obvious disregard for gretchins existence.

Ork tech just plain isn't reliable, and so some of its stuff malfunctions, so what, they prefer a good solid slab of steel with a razor edge on it to that fancy stuff anyhow.

Sure guardsmen may laugh when a looted rhino speeds forward before suddenly have its engine drop out, but they sure aren't laughing when a boy cuts them from neck to groin with his axe. Look at all the pictures of combat with orks. Do you see smiling happy guardsmen guffawing at big clowny orks tripping over their own feet? Or do you see a solid wall of muscle and weapons surging into a line of terrified guardsmen holding despite massive imminent casualties.

Orks are only humorous to players who make them that way. If you just want to make a serious ork army thats really your choice, but alot of us are endeared to orks disregard for warfare and inability to take the supposedly "grim" future of 40k. They don't give a flying grotz **** how grim and emo the imperium is, its a big circus to the orks.

Grot
04-04-2006, 23:20
A lot of good posts here, although I thought I'd toss in my own two cents.

Orks are straightforward, not stupid. When Person A pisses off Person B, Person B might get revenge weeks or months later, with a carefully thought out plan and much satisfaction that 'they're even'. When Ork A pisses off Ork B, Ork B walks in a straight line to Ork A, and beats him up. This isn't to even things out, this is to teach the other one not to do that again. The orks simply don't have the patience to lie in wait and unleash their revenge scheme later on.

This utter lack of tact helps to give the orks a darker humour to them. Their humour shouldn't be limited to things like "Ork Stikkbommaz are unique amongst the other orks because they can remember to throw the bomb and not the pin! Hilarious!" No, it isn't. Maybe for the younger warhammer 40000 crowd, but I'm told that they generally lean towards space marine armies. Maybe the space marine armies should be the ones with the kid's humour? [And all of a sudden, that 'humour' the orks are stuck with sounds like a very bad idea when you try to pass it off to the target demographic.]

That doesn't mean the orks aren't funny, their humour is just really dark. For example, some ork technology is funny in concept, but horrible when you think about it. I mean, take an old big gun, the "Bubble Chukka". Basically, it shoots a force field around the targeted enemy squad, and they are effectively trapped there until the force-field disipates. This is a strange approach to 'pinning' an enemy unit, but it works. But if you think about the trapped soliders, unable to leave, shoot out, or even do anything except watch their comrades die, bombs going off all around them, bullets bouncing off the force-field they're trapped in, watching the field get weaker and weaker, and the ork choppa boy mobs get closer and closer, then that's actually a pretty cruel psychological weapon, despite the rather strange application of force-field technology to basically protect the enemy soliders. (And in this instance, the name 'bubble chukka' is basically an ork naming it after what it does, instead of a fancy or clever name.) And all the while, the orks are laughing at the trapped soliders, because of how helpless the bubble chukka has made them.

If the eldar and tau can survive the stupid jokes about having the word for 'humans' in their language being the same word as a type of primate in ours, then the orks will hopefully survive all the little-kid playground humour lumped onto them.

intellectawe
04-04-2006, 23:32
A lot of good posts here, although I thought I'd toss in my own two cents.

Orks are straightforward, not stupid. When Person A pisses off Person B, Person B might get revenge weeks or months later, with a carefully thought out plan and much satisfaction that 'they're even'. When Ork A pisses off Ork B, Ork B walks in a straight line to Ork A, and beats him up. This isn't to even things out, this is to teach the other one not to do that again. The orks simply don't have the patience to lie in wait and unleash their revenge scheme later on.

This utter lack of tact helps to give the orks a darker humour to them. Their humour shouldn't be limited to things like "Ork Stikkbommaz are unique amongst the other orks because they can remember to throw the bomb and not the pin! Hilarious!" No, it isn't. Maybe for the younger warhammer 40000 crowd, but I'm told that they generally lean towards space marine armies. Maybe the space marine armies should be the ones with the kid's humour? [And all of a sudden, that 'humour' the orks are stuck with sounds like a very bad idea when you try to pass it off to the target demographic.]

That doesn't mean the orks aren't funny, their humour is just really dark. For example, some ork technology is funny in concept, but horrible when you think about it. I mean, take an old big gun, the "Bubble Chukka". Basically, it shoots a force field around the targeted enemy squad, and they are effectively trapped there until the force-field disipates. This is a strange approach to 'pinning' an enemy unit, but it works. But if you think about the trapped soliders, unable to leave, shoot out, or even do anything except watch their comrades die, bombs going off all around them, bullets bouncing off the force-field they're trapped in, watching the field get weaker and weaker, and the ork choppa boy mobs get closer and closer, then that's actually a pretty cruel psychological weapon, despite the rather strange application of force-field technology to basically protect the enemy soliders. (And in this instance, the name 'bubble chukka' is basically an ork naming it after what it does, instead of a fancy or clever name.) And all the while, the orks are laughing at the trapped soliders, because of how helpless the bubble chukka has made them.

If the eldar and tau can survive the stupid jokes about having the word for 'humans' in their language being the same word as a type of primate in ours, then the orks will hopefully survive all the little-kid playground humour lumped onto them.


Good post, very good post, but the Orks didnt name thier units and weapons with idiotic names, a GW dev team did.

And now that you mentioned it, I did realise something...

Orks, in 3rd ed (because they arent in 4th yet) have a very confusing codex. The pictures are just like how you say it, dark, brooding, almost evil looks to them, yet the descriptions under the pictures and teh anmes of the units and weapons totally goes against the pictures.

When players field and play orks, they dont remember the pictures in littel squares, they remember the units, the weapons and their rules.

Picture - Evil ork staring at you
Unit name - GrotSnot the booger eater
weapon name - **** cannon
rules - blows up in your face!

Hence, the power of the savage orc is lost. And we Have..

CODEX : ORK CLOWNS

Tom
05-04-2006, 00:53
They combine a base level of beastiality

:eek:- Methinks you have the wrong word there. Me HOPES you have the wrong word there. Oh god, the mental images...

Orks. Dark humour. Malevolent, but in a rather amusing way. Like the League of Gentlemen. Utterly dark but inherently humourous. They're the part of us who watches Formula 1 for the crashes (and would think last week's Oz GP was the best in a long time because of it) because there's a fascination with destruction worn into them, but without the fear that people could get hurt.

Why are they funny?

People lose their humour in times of great stress and fear, don't we?

Orks don't have stress or fear for the most part. As long as they've got their mates to help out, they think they're invincible. They don't care about the safety of others because, again, they don't suffer from compassion or pity. They'll use what they use even if it's hideously dangerous, and if it blows up, that fascination with destruction and lack of compassion kicks in.

They seem funny, but that's because they've not got anything to lose.


And ignore intellectawe, he's got an obvious agenda and isn't going to listen to anyone with a different opinion.



Regarding Ork language.

We 'ave are own, but wen da 'umans know wot we iz sayin, den we ain't unintellyjent beasts no more. We 'ave got brainz, and dey's better protected dan dere'z. So dat's why are namez sound Goffik. Not are folt are mowfz are a bit diffrent shaped.

Smoking Frog
05-04-2006, 01:51
Picture - Evil ork staring at you
Unit name - GrotSnot the booger eater
weapon name - **** cannon
rules - blows up in your face!

Hence, the power of the savage orc is lost. And we Have..

CODEX : ORK CLOWNS


Uh... I don't know, but I've never faced a Grotsnot booger eater, except for the little kids who play marines and do that.

I also think you've taken the ball and ran out of the stadium with the way you describe orks as they are now. Seriously, an **** cannon? You came up with that, not anyone else. That's the impression you give.


I understand where Adept is coming from. I partly agree.

Question is, how are we to reflect the morbid black humour of the Orks? Because that's what they are full of. That they laugh like a maniac when they charge and crush their enemy, or that they exhibit base understanding of technology, and they frequently experiment with their weapons (which is why some do explode) to make them more deadly in whichever way they see fit.

I agree that something like the Stikkbommaz' little snippet of background is a bit left field, and unnecessary. Orks are savage and maniacs. What is normal to them may be funny in some sick way, but really savage and bestial when thought about.

That's the way I see Orks. Savage but maniacs, and not funny maniacs either. Something like Speed Freeks.

How can the Orks be best represent then?

Khaine's Messenger
05-04-2006, 03:04
:eek:- Methinks you have the wrong word there.

You're right. It's "bestiality"...I don't think I've ever got that one right in one go.


Oh god, the mental images...

To be honest, I never thought of that use of the word until well after I posted it. But since Orks don't seem to be in for that sort of "monster mash," I'd hoped people would....oh, who am I kidding. There are people who get off when they see the words "do" and "it" right next to each other. I blame my poor word choice on staying up late...yeah...that's it....


Regarding Ork language.

Ah, yes. Ork language. I'm personally not all that against it, because there's just something about a six-seven foot tall hulking monstrocity that says the accent really isn't something you should make fun of unless you want your head twisted off like a bottlecap.

And I agree with what someone else said...the basic problem is not so much the background (although that has its issues), but the way it is translated into the game. And there I cannot help, for I have never actually held an Ork codex in my hands for longer than a few minutes. Although playing da Boyz in DoW was fuuuun. :)

adreal
05-04-2006, 09:48
I think the allure of ork vechiles being slapped together from a bunch of other ones is good.

Also the fact that ork weapons work because they think it works is pretty cool IMHO, Tau and eldar understand there tech. and it works for them, imperials worship thier tech. and it works for them. Orks point thier tech at someone and think, 'yeah this'll mess them up' and it works.

maybe thats why they can fix stuff with a band aid

Adept
05-04-2006, 10:33
And in this instance, the name 'bubble chukka' is basically an ork naming it after what it does, instead of a fancy or clever name.

Why would he name it in english/imperial?

Why would an imperial soldier call it a bubble chucker? Surely the official imperial designation would be force-field projector, or cannon, or something of that nature.

And the orkish word for it would be completely unpronouncable.

I think the habit of naming ork units in badly spelled english is wearing thin, and doing a disservice to ork players.

The models need a slight touch up, to remove the comically 'slapped together' look some of them have, but apart from that I think the orks are allright.

Azhrahg
05-04-2006, 11:14
Why would he name it in english/imperial?

Why would an imperial soldier call it a bubble chucker? Surely the official imperial designation would be force-field projector, or cannon, or something of that nature.

And the orkish word for it would be completely unpronouncable.

I think the habit of naming ork units in badly spelled english is wearing thin, and doing a disservice to ork players.

The models need a slight touch up, to remove the comically 'slapped together' look some of them have, but apart from that I think the orks are allright.

Because if it wasn't in english, we wouldn't be able to understand it, and thus miss this rather important bit of information on the orks. They are very straight forward, they use very straight forward names for things. I love 'ard boyz, trukk boyz, zzap gun etc. Half of what draw me to collect orks would dissapear if god forbid they called them heavy infantry, mobile infantry, kustumized lascannon etc.
I think black humour is essential to orks - including their language. Having orks speaking proper english to each other would be plain wrong, and having every piece of conversation printed in a imaginary language, would be plain boring. I agree about the stikk bommaz description being way off, but other than that I pretty much love the codex as it is.
One thing I would like changed however is the "it is working because I think so" as it makes absolutely no sense - then why can guardsmen operate it???
It is fine that it is unreliable, and that most imperial techs would classify it as nonoperaional, since it gets too hot to handle, explodes in your hand, needs a proper slap every few minutes etc. but it does work!


Azhrahg.

CrimsonTider
05-04-2006, 11:59
Personally, I have always found orks to be both humourous and savage. Their codex does need a lot of work, and a lot of updating. But their very nature is war. They exist for it, and when they have no one else to fight, they will fight each other. War makes orks stronger. It weeds out the weaker orks, leaving the strong core units. War is their form of entertainment. They don't watch televsion, they don't watch plays. If anything, the might all go watch a brutal "sport" together which involves death and mayhem.

I like the dark humour. The bad english is part of their dark humour. Yeah, they mispronounce it, but if you listen to the words they are just telling you that they are going to kill you and they are going to enjoy it, alot.

I like them the way they are. Dark, straight-forward, savage, with a bit of humour thrown in to keep it light. Without the humour, its just grunts and howls.

Ophidicus
05-04-2006, 12:17
Because of course it has to be all or nothing. You know, 'cause they abolished that whole "middle ground" thing in the eighteen-hundreds :rolleyes:

Quite right.

Orks need the balance between comedy and outright nastiness, that's what makes them Orks. What must be borne in mind is that Ork humour is funny from two viewpoints. Comedy deaths caused by malfunctioning Ork machinery is funny uin a lowbrow slapstick way. Ever seen an Ork with a high brow? Nope, me neither. It's not funny if you're in the machine at the time, but who cares when you died? At least you can say you made someone laugh.

Also, I feel that "Waaagh!" is a deliberate charicature perpetuated by the Imperium (filtered through the Games Designers of 1980s Terra). The true pronunciation is akin to that spoken by a large hispanic Californian, his three big mates, and fifty thousand Metalheads that if you're going to be *very* cruel about it could well be on about a particularly infamous Ork Painboy.

minibutmighty
05-04-2006, 12:43
I'd say that anyone whom doesn't understand the Ork psyche should attend a football riot, live in one of Engands many chav ridden "estates" or watch the crowd in jerry springer That'll straighten you out as to what exactly makes the orks tick :)

I'd say that they are far from stupid, its just that they adopt a no nonsense and brutal approach to life. I believe there is a quote from eldrad admiring the orks somewhat in that the so called "higher" races has brought themselves ruin by striving to be sophisticated or to find their place in the universe by trying to be something that the orks simply don't care about.

Sometimes the simplest approach is the best :)

Ophidicus
05-04-2006, 12:49
I'll stick to Metal gigs thanks. :)

Eblis_Dead_Forever
05-04-2006, 15:25
For a start I think that too many are looking for a vague generalistion of the orks in a hope to understand them better. I mean the Huns were savage and warlike but it would be wrong to think that is all they are. I think that all the races in 40k lack depth to them I mean giving the cultural deversity of 6 billion people of earth I think there is alot more to a race that spans a vast section of the galaxy. Rather than than fighting, beating up grots and making dangerous weapons. However 40k is about the game rather than the background of a specific race(ok, ok it's about GW selling models).
Having said that though i think alot of people view the orks as thick because if they came across a person that acted a similar way and spoke like an ork they would be viewed as an idiot. After all I bet that most people out there laugh at South Park when they make fun on Canadians and the way they say about. The orks however have a complete different culture and way of life which different people view in different ways. I doubt very much that peoples perceptions are going to change very much no matter what GW does to them. As the orks have under gone more radical changes concept wise than any other race in 40K and the old ideas and sterotypes that were developed aren't likely to go away.
As for Waaagh!!! this is probably not what it sounds like. A gun is supposed to go bang or an explosion boom now when some one says those words it doesn't have the same impact as someone firing a 45 calibre desert eagle or a two megatonne bomb going off does it. The same is true with Waaagh!!! a 10 year old kid shouting it as he moves his orks into combat is not the same as a large army of 7 foot 400 pound orks armed with large sharp axes firing sluggas and charging into intent on ending your life shouting WAAAGH!!! now is it. Exactly the same thing is true for their way of speaking it sounds pretty bad if you hear it coming from a 20 year old gamer (similar to listening a student speaking french compared to a genuine french person). Yes the codexs are writing from an "Imperial" point of view, might explain why the marines are so good;). But it gives the orks slight more flavor if they are given ork names instead of calling shoota boyz an ork tactical squad or infantry platoon. Also given the vast amount of troops that orks have it makes it slightly easier to differentiate betwen them.

DraXaus
05-04-2006, 15:38
For no particular reason, I'm reminded of a scene where a Guardsman is being sexually abused by randy Orks in no mans land as his comrades weep. Even the Commissar shed a tear at hearing his wails for an airstrike on his position.

Psiweapon
05-04-2006, 16:15
For no particular reason, I'm reminded of a scene where a Guardsman is being sexually abused by randy Orks in no mans land as his comrades weep. Even the Commissar shed a tear at hearing his wails for an airstrike on his position.
Come on man where the hell is that?! Tell me now! I want to read! Alternatively, give me something of what you smoke. Please.

And of course there is variety amongst Orks. Read "Ere We Go", 2nd ed Codex, and "Waaagh! Da Orks!" and you'll learn about their variety. Orks and grots have jobs, places to hang, social structure, etc. Mekaniaks must have inventive, quick minds - their innate knowwots aren't all-powerful. Orks have their way of thinking, and probably aren't as stupid as they seem. They're probably as individual as their fighting nature lets them, and there must be orks that are more clever and other that are, well, less bright. I can clearly envision...

An ork in the middle of a desert, in an all-terrain-motorbike of sorts. He's driving real fast and a grot is sleep between the luggage. After some time, the ork stops, and awakens the grot. Then they start writing down what is in the surroundings and such - they were in a reconnaisance mission. And there's nothing "stupid" or "clownish" stuff in that.

About their accent... I think that it should be more generic gruntling and disgraceful (when compared to human throats) rather than specifically cockney accent (or whatever it was). In the spanish version (I'm from Spain) Orks speak like our local version of rednecks... and god knows how do they speak in other translated versions!

Sharky
05-04-2006, 16:30
Look at the second edition ork codex. there is NO WAY you can tell me they were not suposed to be the bungling idiots of 40k. Everything humorously blows up in their faces.


Spoken like someone who never saw a 2nd Ed. Ork army in action. Sure, some stuff malfunctioned - but what didn't tore gaping holes in their opponent's army. Everything seemed made to cause as much mayhem as possible (Shokk-attack gun, Hop-Splat artillery, over engineered custom weapons), and to hell with who got hurt!

Language: Orks do have their own language - ever see their glyphs and the words associated with them? It's just more effective to insult your enemies in their own language (badly accented or not).

You want grim and gritty? Go play marines - I hear there's a shortage of people playing them :rolleyes: I still view orks as they were in RT - mean and inventive, with "eyes that stab loathing", and laughed hysterically at "a captive's doomed struggles or news of a terminal illness" - never as goofy or "retarded" (your use of the word, here) clowns.

kane40k
08-04-2006, 08:40
We haven't had one of these for, oh, three days now, and with the upcoming release of Codex: Orks I thought now was a good time for another beating of this old horse.



how could you beat an old horse!

orks are just savage! they rock! their junky vehicles and smashy ambitions.... *pulls face as if remminising to good times!*

susu.exp
08-04-2006, 10:41
Once again Iīll explain my view of the Orks in one of those threads... My premise is, that each 40k army has to play to real aspects of human society and use that as a subtext to become meaningful. That by itīs very nature is funny and serious in any army. I am with Freud on the idea that a joke is funny, because it reveals a truth and that laughter is the reaction to that relevation. Are Orks the savage? One might want them to be, but I disagree. To be savage means two things:
a) fierceness and brutality - That the Orks have in spades, but to be called savages theyīd require to fulfill the second requirement
b) lack of culture - But Orks do have a culture, with social structures like the clans and the tribes, religion, etc.
So the savage is not the right model to use, but I have championed another approach before and I will do so again:

Orks as school kids. About 9th grade I guess. Here we find similar social structures (Tribes being classes, or even whole schools, Clans being the gross labeling structure that creates cliques on a local level and those stereotypes we all love so much on a bigger scale, Goff Jocks, Bad Moon Preppies, Evil Sun Skaters, etc. Grots are the younger kids, Oddboyz are the ones mentioned in yearbooks: Head of the physics club: Mekboy, Team Captain: Runtherd). Now School age is a pretty traumatic thing for a lot of people. Which is great for sales of Smashing Pumpkin albums, for instance, but itīs not that funny for participants. A bunch of kids running rampart in your section of the town isnīt that hilarious either. But from a distance it is funny. Kids arguing over whether itīs Christina or Brinney this season. Now imagine this with Guns (there is a Canadian movie about a snowball fight called "La Guerre des tuques", whcih had the tagline "War, peace, love and honor...in the world of children". If you leave out peace and love and replace the snowballs with stikkbombs youīre getting there).
So Orks are about adolescence, peer-pressure, what some people call "the formative years". Interestingly a time in life absent from most cultures that have been called savage (in fact adolescence as a true phase is a young concept even in our own culture).

How would I like to see that conveyed in the codex? Iīd like to see Ork society detailed in more detail, the interactions of the institutions of that society laid out. Humor would inevitably remain, though itīd be a more sophisticated humor at times (at a subtext level).

intellectawe
08-04-2006, 13:15
Spoken like someone who never saw a 2nd Ed. Ork army in action. Sure, some stuff malfunctioned - but what didn't tore gaping holes in their opponent's army. Everything seemed made to cause as much mayhem as possible (Shokk-attack gun, Hop-Splat artillery, over engineered custom weapons), and to hell with who got hurt!

Language: Orks do have their own language - ever see their glyphs and the words associated with them? It's just more effective to insult your enemies in their own language (badly accented or not).

You want grim and gritty? Go play marines - I hear there's a shortage of people playing them :rolleyes: I still view orks as they were in RT - mean and inventive, with "eyes that stab loathing", and laughed hysterically at "a captive's doomed struggles or news of a terminal illness" - never as goofy or "retarded" (your use of the word, here) clowns.

Spoken like someone with his head up his ass. I dont appreciate being told what I did or didnt do. Its not like you can read my mind or view my past, so dont make any stupid assumptions. I have been playing since 1989, so there is some knowledge you can take and learn from thank you very much.

Again, another example of your assumptioness, is that I never mentioned anything about lethality as a downfall to thier effectiveness or stupidity in that small qoute you used to misrepresent me. Sure they can blow holes in another army, but so could any army. But other armies dont stick their grandmothers in cannons to be fired off into the enemy.

"Oh, my marine grandmother got stuck in your ork dreadnought engine!"

I never said anyting about orks never being intelligent or not cunning. Stop making assumptions and read the plain English I write and stop inventing lines to be reading in between. I own two ork armies, so dont even make it seem like I am against orks in teh way you think I am.

Orks need to be more cunning and evil and battle hungry in their rules. period. instead of having everything happen by chance, because thats what playing an ork army feels like. Fells like you are gambling and you never know whats going to happen, and this stems from thier wackiness and stupidity from old dev. fluff and rules than serious cunning and savagery.

Feral Orks to me FEEL like the real savage and cunning ork. The main codex is a joke, both for fluff, rules and feel.

Kjell
08-04-2006, 15:06
So, orks use their grandmothers as projectiles? This is news to me. I didn't even know that orks had grandmothers, at all. :p


But anyhow. Any comedy found in the ork army should be more due to their blatant disregard for life than anything else. Like Skaven, in WHFB. A "life is cheap" sort of mentality. The humour would be a dark and somewhat absurd one, though. I mean... Manual guiding system for rockets? That's the perfect example of how little the greenskins care about the life of others.

As far as names go, I do agree that either Orkish names or Imperial designations would be more fitting and it would mesh better with the other army books.

cerealkiller195
08-04-2006, 15:30
maybe ONLY ork players should comment on this thread.

Kjell
08-04-2006, 17:14
Why is that? Surely potential ork players should also be allowed to voice their opinions. We have opinions in this matter, too. ;)

After all, there's bound to be a reason as to why non-ork players happen to be non-ork players. In my case it has nothing to do with game mechanics. Perhaps I would be far more tempted to collect the green little blighters if their theme was slightly modified? And if so, then maybe many others would be more tempted as well?


Huzzah for speculation. :p

squigsnok
08-04-2006, 17:45
Orks are neither savage nor stupid.

Put simply they are an alien race, whose methods and grasp of concepts is alien to us as humans. Compared to a human outlook on life they may indeed appear savage, but then surely humans appear savage to higher races such as the Eldar.

And a race that can master interstellar travel, and has "tellyporta" technology can hardly be seen as stupid.

To quote from the codex:


The orks are the pinacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn. And why? Because we saught answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude

And on the subject of the way the orks use English (or whatever the equivalent Imperial language is) to designate their vehicles or whatever could be simple imitation, similar to the way any of us may attempt to speak a foreign language.
Naming of units is probably Imperial designation based of the way an ork describes them. It is known that orks (especially ones of the Blood Axe clan) have come into contact with humans, so the way he describes his own kind is probably the way it has stuck.

bigred
08-04-2006, 18:00
My take on the orks is that they are the "ultimate soldiers" of the universe. A different take on the tyranids (who represent evolution gone mad), the Orks are Nature itself given purpose (to be the ultimate soldier) by the Old Ones.

What were the C'tan surprised by when they awakened? The "re-blooming" and far reach of the Krork. The Old Ones gave them exactly what a race of super-soldiers needs.

-A lack of fear. Orks for all practical purposes live only in the present tense, never worrying about tomorrow, or yesterday (the opposite of the Eldar). Death holds no fear for them which even the Eldar admire.

-Psychic protection. The ork's present tense existance protects them from cultural excesses that lead to the creation of the Chaos powers. Instead, the Krork's existance gave rise to Mork and Gork, in effect husbanding their racial psychic potential for use only by the Krork, and no one else. This again is admired by the Eldar.

-A plantlike survival mechanism. They are fungal, and almost impossible to wipe out. Once they spread to a world, they are pretty much there to stay (if only in small isolated pockets).

-Innate soldiering skills. Orks are born knowing all they need to know. Their latent psychic aura, helps make their technology work as does their understanding of force-field technology (a much watered down version of the Jokaero's knowledge), which enables space travel. Thus, they can never be truly "subjugated". They will always be able to make violence upon anything in their vicinity including each other.

The one flaw is their uncontrollability. But then again, from the point of view of the Old Ones, perhaps seeing their defeat on the distant horizon at the hands of the undying C'tan, along with the terrible suffering of their more sophisticated earlier experiments (the Eldar), the Krork make a perfect "Doomsday Weapon", to be released into the universe, to fight on forever against the Necron, even long,long after their creators had passed into legend.

That is the take on the Orks I want to see. Simple, brutal, inelegant, effective. Things that we take as "ork comedy" in my view are simply cultural misunderstandings of a race with such a different outlook on life and existance as the orks have.

-bigred