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vinny t
25-06-2011, 20:05
So, the book has been out for a while, and I haven't really seen one build stand out as the best, so my question to you all is: What seems to be the strongest take-all-comers build, and what are its strengths and weaknesses?

vinush
25-06-2011, 20:19
Is there a need to have the most competitive build? I mean, isn;t the whole point of the hobby to have fun and play some games with friends having spent time collecting, assembling and painting a bunch of models?

vinny t
25-06-2011, 20:44
well, many times you are correct, but some people, me included, enjoy tournaments, and, as I play TK, I am simply wondering what builds have worked for players at this level of competition.

WarmbloodedLizard
25-06-2011, 20:47
Is there a need to have the most competitive build? I mean, isn;t the whole point of the hobby to have fun and play some games with friends having spent time collecting, assembling and painting a bunch of models?

don't confuse your own view on the game with a general one.

vinush
25-06-2011, 20:58
I'm pretty sure it's the view of the company who make the game, not just my own...

However, that said, the point I was making, in a round about way, was that if everyone used the most competitive lists, then the game becomes rather cookie-cutter and same-y.

vinny t
25-06-2011, 21:00
alright vinush, your input is duly noted.
Now, what is the most competitive tomb kings build?

The bearded one
25-06-2011, 21:20
I think that is where the developers have succeeded with the TK armybook; there is no 'right way', or at least not an obvious one or one sticking out far above all others like a lore of life + cupped hands slann in templeguard, or chosen of tzeentch with 2 warshrines of tzeentch.

I'd say a big block of 40 or so tomb guard to center the army around. Also a casket of souls and a heirotitan to provide a good magic phase (I would also advice the channeling staff from the BRB on a lvl 2, to double the odds of him channeling), but apart from that nothing really pops out as "take that one!"

cool-kid-on-the-block
25-06-2011, 22:54
i agree with the above.

the tomb king book is good in that evverything is playable even the fabled heavy TK cavalry are now passable with their vanguard move.

i would say though that spamming monsters is always a way to go especally when combined with area effect spells that move and heal them.

also the casket is bordering on a no-brainer.

scarletsquig
25-06-2011, 22:55
Spam chariots for core, wizards and stuff that helps them cast for heroes/rare, and warsphinxes for special. Add tomb swarms, carrion, catapults to flavour.

The bearded one
25-06-2011, 23:31
Spam chariots for core, wizards and stuff that helps them cast for heroes/rare, and warsphinxes for special. Add tomb swarms, carrion, catapults to flavour.

I'd say spam archers for core. Moving and firing without any penalty is very valuable. Darken the sky with arrows. Heck, put your archers behind forest and stuff, they don't care. Tomb king archers are bloody awesome in the watchtower scenario because they don't give anything about the -2 to hit against buildings.

However I did see somewhere a big fat block of 20 or so chariots, with a tomb king in the chariot with the deathmask. This is a very creative idea that can be very, very effective.

Daemonia
26-06-2011, 02:37
I can't really imagine a TK army without lots of big archer blocks. Simply moving and shooting at anyone and anything is pretty amazing for a cheap and expendable core unit.

Aluinn
26-06-2011, 05:54
I'll be the dissenting voice and say that Core should include at least one very large block of Skeleton warriors. When I've seen TK armies get completely wrecked, they've usually been the type that only really have one competent combat block in the form of some Tomb Guard--and even then, I see armies where this is like 20 TG, which can and will be rolled mercilessly when they're the only real fighty unit in the army. I do not think TK have the tools to be a gunline (arrow line?), at all, and as such I think they need at least the standard three solid combat blocks. Because TG are fairly expensive, that means at least one big Warrior unit, and I only say one rather than two because a large-ish unit of chariots can perform a similar function, though they're more slanted to offense, provided they have character support.

And while on the subject of characters, I see no reason not to have a Tomb Prince in freaking every non-archer infantry or chariot unit. Those guys are the deal of the century. They're basically paying 25 points more than VC Wight Kings, which are accounted a pretty good deal for their stats and abilities, for the following upgrades: +1 WS, The Curse, +2-3 WS to any unit they join (enormous, and probably worth more than 25 points on its own), and cheaper great weapons at a value of 6 points (10 for the Wight - 4 for the Prince). The only downside is being flammable, which rarely matters and is easily circumvented by Dragonhelm or Dragonbane Gem. These guys mean you have WS5 Core, which pretty well makes up for their poor stats in other areas. No one else gets this; you're hitting Elves on 3s.

But anyway, this stuff is highly debatable and, overall, I'd agree with those posters who have said that it's a fairly well-balanced army book and there are few no-brainer choices. There are a few that are very unimpressive, but nothing that seems utterly useless. I mean, I'm not sure why anyone would take Tomb Scorpions, for example, but they can still take out war machines adequately well, I guess.

sulla
26-06-2011, 19:58
alright vinush, your input is duly noted.
Now, what is the most competitive tomb kings build?Well what have you used to good effect so far? Perhaps it would be easier to help if players knew what style you liked.

At the moment, it just comes off as a lazy post from someone who can't be bothered thinking for themself. Sorry if that hurts your feelings, but that was my first impression.

For what it's worth TK are an army with a good magic phase assuming you take a lvl4 and casket. The blocks can be resilient as long as you include a prince or king and equip him to last more than a phase of combat. Shooting is passable but not overwhelming.

As an opponent, I find myself winning/losing combats by far smaller margins than fighting against VC, and find it is very hard to get to whatever war machines are fielded due to even moderate bow units being good at killing traditional war machine hunters.

It's a good, solid army. Everything seems to be functional for it's points, although I can't see why anyone would take heavy cav over light.

bluemage
26-06-2011, 20:34
The competative builds all seem to run a lvl4, casket, warsphinxes and catapults, plus some type of infantry.

sulla
26-06-2011, 21:18
The competative builds all seem to run a lvl4, casket, warsphinxes and catapults, plus some type of infantry.Balanced by the problem that too many points in big guys makes you overly weak vs artillery, and screaming skull catapults are quite weak vs basic infantry nowadays and TK infantry without characters is quite poor. So it's a careful balancing act to build a TK army. Unlike, say a WoC army that can just take 2 huge blobs of artillery and a hellcannon or two. Balance works best for them.

vinny t
27-06-2011, 03:29
well, I have used a variety of lists, and found that they all have definite strengths and weaknesses.

The first list I tried was a monster mash, with 2 warsphinxes, a Necrosphinx, 2 Bone giants, and infantry. It worked crazily well against a beastmen army with 2 hordes of guys, and against a marauder heavy khorne list, but didn't really feel right to me, and got just straight tabled against a VC list.

The second list that I tried was one that was more balanced. It had 2 units of infantry, 2 units of archers, 2 Warsphinxes, 2 catapults and a casket. It worked decently well, beating a WoC list quite handily, but losing to another VC list. It seemed like it didnt really have the hitting power it needed, and was quite vulnerable to other monsters, specificlly, the hellcannon.

The list I am playing now is a refinement of the above list. It has a Prince in a unit of 3 chariots, 1 big block of hw/s skellies with a prince, 2 units of bowmen, 2 warsphinxes, a necrosphinx and a casket as the main attraction. I haven't tested it yet, but I have really high hopes for it.

This thread was about what people thougth would be the best way for TK to be competitive, and yes, I did want to learn from it, but in no way was I planning to copy it exactly. I just wanted to see what lists worked best for people.

Lord Inquisitor
27-06-2011, 03:46
So the book's not really been out very long but I've seen/played against a couple of competitive builds and they did have some very common elements. We shall see if this actually becomes the "standard build" or if this is just a coincidence.

Level 4. Obviously

King + Special Character Necrotect + tomb guard. Pretty obvious but Tomb Guard with Frenzy, Hatred and WS6? Don't muck with this unit. (Unless you use Siren Song to force them into a Boiling Flood river and watch them all die - I'm still chuckling about that a week later... :D)

BSB, Casket.

Several BIG blocks of skeletons with spears or bows.

At least one unit of 4-6 Necropolis Knights. These guys are Entombed and are really very badass. They pop up behind your lines just as you're about to engage the main lines and they are no picnic to deal with. Plus one of these units gets to re-roll armour saves because of the necrotech SC.

After that there seems to be some variation. Warsphinx seems to be popular.

Morkash
27-06-2011, 08:03
What the Lord Inquisitor said. The SC Necrotect is an incredible bargain for his point cost. Add in an king and maybe the Banner of the Undying Legion and the Tomb Guard will be fighting a way through the Polar Gate and straight back. Necro Knights with rerollable 3+ are good as well.
The Bearded One's remark with shooting vs. buildings is handy, too. It works as well against units being covered by other units and a main reason many TKs favour Archers over other skeletons.
A few chariots are never wrong either, neither is a Warsphinx or two. Casket is mandatory, bonus power dice and chain lightning rocks.

GodlessM
27-06-2011, 12:49
I'll be the dissenting voice and say that Core should include at least one very large block of Skeleton warriors.

You're not alone, I always take a block of 50 5 wide and 10 deep to tar pit things, and they do it very well.

StormCrow
27-06-2011, 13:04
In the games I've played I've noticed a few standout units and tactics:

-duel warsphinxes on a flank will tie up some units, enemy magic and shooting for *at least* a couple of turns, drawing attention away from frail units like chariots and skeleton warriors
-Taking a couple of level 1's is great to spam the Lore of Nehekhara signature spell and get back some crucial wounds, not to mention stop you being outmanouvered.
-Heirotitan and casket are extremely useful, and in this army I consider the channeling staff a great addition
-Stalkers work wonders against enemy warmachines and small elite units (duh)
-Death mask is an amazing item and fairly common in my lists
-Nekaph the Herald is a very good and cheap hero, especially if he's near a tomb king with death mask.

That said there's nothing that really sticks out for tournament builds outside the obvious things (most of which I think we've covered).

EDIT: banner of the undying legion is a must have for tomb guard