PDA

View Full Version : Magic items and characters, who needs em?



Da GoBBo
04-04-2006, 21:04
Greetings peasants,

just read a piece about magic items that made me wonder. When I started this game in 5th edition and barely had money to buy an armybook, let alone the magic box, my army composition was fairly simple. Units, small cav unit, couple of warmachines (1 doomdiver and 1-2 chariots) and a few shamans. The only items I had heard about were scrolls and the banner of shielding. As you can imagine I didn't spent much points on characters and had quiet a bulky army. Things went well and i even laughed at most lizzie armies, the most beardy army one could have back then. It was during 6th edition when I really learned about magic items and started using them. It's also since 6th edition I started loosing more games. Is this because of a slightly altered armylist, (only really big change for me is the loss of crossbowmen) me becomming a bad general or might me spending more points on charrs have anything to do with it? As the title of this thread suggests I think its the last one. Whats yer oppinion about this? What armies / armytypes have great need of charcters and magic ****, and for what purpose? I play greenskins and think about leaving em home next time.

Da GoBBo

ROCKY
04-04-2006, 21:55
Characters do NOT win battles but they can help. For instance in the vampire count army, a wight lord is VERY cheap (60points) but very dangerous, 3attacks with the killing blow and he gives your troops ld9! I personally use characters a supporters and for leadership and add on a little pain, for instance, chaos knights are powerful, but put in an exalted with a great weapon and not even chariots can stand up against them and the number of wounds usually double. plus magic can change the tide of battle (have a level 4 high elf mage with the ring of fury and lore of heaven magic and seer and watch the fire works fly!)

Simon23
05-04-2006, 00:34
I often wonder whether my wardancer highborn is worth 290pts..

I figure he does more damage than a treeman but can`t be cannon sniped. He also takes out characters worth much more.

Maybe its your character set ups or item choices that are to blame?

My highborn although expensive deserves to be considering once hes in combat hes very hard to kill and wreaks tremendous havoc. In challenges the scene of most generals demise he is pretty much impossible to kill only being hit on 6`s and having a good ward save.
The pts cost is only justified if you choose wisely with your magic items and your character choice, some setups just aren`t cost effective.

ROCKY
05-04-2006, 00:42
I often wonder whether my wardancer highborn is worth 290pts..

I figure he does more damage than a treeman but can`t be cannon sniped. He also takes out characters worth much more.
What size of a game do you play? plus wardancers are not exactly equipped very well. I only pimp out my lords if I want to focus on maximum unit killing. I have experienced that the more expensive your lord the harder the enemy will try to eliminate him/her. I mayself perfer to have multiple cheap yet effective heroes than to have one powerful yet big fat victory awarding lord.

Simon23
05-04-2006, 00:56
If i use the 290 set up its 2150pts+

At 2000 hes 255.

I don`t mind spending that, a lot of people spend 400pts on a vampire lord that my challenge specialty lord will simply eat alive. With 5 WS7 strength 5 attacks on the charge, re-rolling wounds with killing blow hes also capable of swinging combat firmly in my favour. There aren`t many lords and 7 man retinues that can charge 6 chosen knights + Lord and kill the lot before they even strike back. At 430 pts for unit and character they are much better value than 650pts of my opponents pts.
As a wood elf player if i commit my forces I cannot afford to become bogged down, my troops do not favour attrition. I need maximum impact on the charge. Re-rolls make a character reliable and its always good to have a unit in your army that you know will win a combat for you.

People may say they are vulnerable to cavalry charges but a 4+ ward save is not my idea of vulnerable. They have magic resistance (1) and should be in woods or in combat...never in the open. Softly softly catchy monkey...

ROCKY
05-04-2006, 01:03
If i use the 290 set up its 2150pts+

At 2000 hes 255.

I don`t mind spending that, a lot of people spend 400pts on a vampire lord that my challenge specialty lord will simply eat alive. With 5 WS7 strength 5 attacks on the charge, re-rolling wounds with killing blow hes also capable of swinging combat firmly in my favour. There aren`t many lords and 7 man retinues that can charge 6 chosen knights + Lord and kill the lot before they even strike back. At 430 pts for unit and character they are much better value than 650pts of my opponents pts.
As a wood elf player if i commit my forces I cannot afford to become bogged down, my troops do not favour attrition. I need maximum impact on the charge. Re-rolls make a character reliable and its always good to have a unit in your army that you know will win a combat for you.

People may say they are vulnerable to cavalry charges but a 4+ ward save is not my idea of vulnerable.
Interesting, but an opponent would have to be stupid to charge a wardancer general, unless the general and the retinue he is with have enought attacks to safely wipe out the unit. being a chaos general, I usually take care of wardancers via chariot. as for being a (yes new) woodelf general, I love my sniper lord. he is safe to use and will stay out of harm's way and is Strong enough to tackle flyers that get too close. Do wardancers not need to alterated between their dances (what I mean is that I do not think you are allowed to use the same dance in two consecutive turn).

Flypaper
05-04-2006, 01:45
I'm personally of the opinion that most combat-oriented magic items are...

(wait for it - shock and horror!)

...significantly overcosted. Consequently I'm not a fan of tooling up fighting heroes - certainly not of tooling them up for character-on-character violence, which has to be the least efficient use of a character spot there is.

OK, so I am planning on setting up one character who's designed specifically for challenges (as my alt-lord when I don't feel like running the Slann). But can you spot the differences?

Saurus Oldblood
- Light armour, shield
- Blessed Spawning of Itzl
- Carnosaur
- Piranha Blade

...Yup, he's there to challenge unit champions and rack up the overkill. :D

Simon23
05-04-2006, 02:18
I like hunting down the enemy general, its satisfying to kill them :angel:

I agree that building a character thats only good in challenges is pointless but the wardancer is just as good at killing goblins as he is at killing knights and lords.

6 Strength 5 attacks at WS 7 re-rolling wounds

On charge against Gobbos its 2`s to hit so 5 hits. 2`s to wound rerolling more than likely 5 dead. :p

I never used to buy uber lords but I`ve seen too many of my hero level fighters get smacked straight down by vampires and chaos lords who then use the overkill to get a nice big bonus to their CR.
So when I found a character miles cheaper than they are that can take them out as well as slaughter RnF I had to go for it! :cool:
I find shooty highborns really ineffective for their pts cost how do you equip yours?

ROCKY
05-04-2006, 02:33
I like hunting down the enemy general, its satisfying to kill them :angel:

I agree that building a character thats only good in challenges is pointless but the wardancer is just as good at killing goblins as he is at killing knights and lords.

6 Strength 5 attacks at WS 7 re-rolling wounds

On charge against Gobbos its 2`s to hit so 5 hits. 2`s to wound rerolling more than likely 5 dead. :p

I never used to buy uber lords but I`ve seen too many of my hero level fighters get smacked straight down by vampires and chaos lords who then use the overkill to get a nice big bonus to their CR.
So when I found a character miles cheaper than they are that can take them out as well as slaughter RnF I had to go for it! :cool:
I find shooty highborns really ineffective for their pts cost how do you equip yours?
Here you Go:
Highborn:
Bow of loren
Light armor
Arcane bodkins
annoyance of netlings
talisman of defence
Great weapon

yep. I usually take down 3knights per turn with this dude. on a unit of 5chaos knights that SUCKS (for the knights of course:D ) and I usually snipe the CRAP out of lone lords that ride monsters and so on.
The highborn is usually accompanied by his son:
Noble:
Horse
light armor
helm of the hunt
shield
spear
and the hail of doom arrows.

Sasquatch
05-04-2006, 02:56
I play skaven. That means that every point I spend on characters and upgrades, I have less troops on the table. I buy a heavy weapon, that one less rat or two slaves. My general costs as much as my two slave units, and guess which one rack up the most kills?

Admitedly, I play small games, around 1K points, so I can't gear up on super tooled lords, my planned 2150 list has a lord who comes in around 150pts. Reasonably competent in combat, but mostly there to provide his Ld to my army.

Orks are another horde army, reliant on blocks of tough troops to win out in combats. As such, your characters should be there to support the blocks. A fighting hero here, combat lord there, a shaman or two for help in the magic phase.

Sure, you could tool up a warboss, stick him on a mount and rampage across the table. But against a decent general you'll either be shot to pieces of get swamped by other units and beat by static CR.

At least that's what I'd do.

Keller
05-04-2006, 03:04
I'm not much for splurging on magic items, though it does depend a bit on my army.

Empire - most characters don't get anything special. General gets a ward, usually, though I am losing interest in it since it rarely matters. Wizards usually get a scroll or powerstone, sometimes the Rod of Power if I only have one. Preists and Captains get nothing, except maybe a magic ring. Engineers seldom get anything, though sometimes the Dragon Bow or a bound item to support the army. All slots are usually filled, though all Empire characters are pretty inexpensive.

Vampire Counts - depends largely on bloodline. General often gets maxed, just due to a ward being nessesary and the usefulness of powers/arcane items. Necros get 25-50 points of gear. Wightlords seldom get anything, Wraiths or thralls depend on what I want them for, and what bloodline I am playing at the time. Usually make use of all slots, upgrading Count to Lord if I don't really want the 4th character.

Ogre Kingdoms - Tyrant gets a few items, between 10 and 60 points worth typically. Mages each get 1 arcane item, sometimes a weapon in the case of slaughtermasters. Bruisers seldom get anything but a low cost bigname, Hunters get 25-50 points worth, depending on role. Usually just 2-3 heros, depending on point size. A Tyrant and Hunter is common for me, adding in mages for 3k+ games.

Atzcapotzalco
05-04-2006, 03:23
I have to admit I regularly have serious doubts when I count up the total points cost of my southlands Lizardman characters. My dwarf characters are more consistently useful, often essential in inflicting damage or absorbing flak from enemy characters with runic armour, but even there I'm often a hero short of my allowance.

In general, points spent on characters are undeniably less troops, and the extra points for magic items even less. If you feel your army is unbalanced in favour of heroes and important units are understrength or missing as a result then by all means change the balance.

ROCKY
05-04-2006, 03:31
In my chaos army, I spend around 480points on my 3characters in a 2150game (the points include the characters: Exalted=150, Exalted=150, sorcerer=170) that is about it, if I need another sorcerer, I toss out an exalted and take an aspiring champ of tzeentch) which is good becaus this gives me characters as or almost as strong as lords and leaves me a lot of points to spend on units around 1650points to be percise.

Flypaper
06-04-2006, 10:49
I play skaven. That means that every point I spend on characters and upgrades, I have less troops on the table.
...While this is undeniable true in the strictest sense (more characters = less points to spend), I found this particular juxtaposition rather amusing, as Skaven probably have the least to worry about of any army when it comes to overspending on characters - particularly those cheap fighty heroes.

I know I've written a couple of hypothetical lists with a full complement of characters, only to be shocked when I've added it all up and it's come to less than 500 points. That's almost a hundred points less than my two Lizardmen protagonists. :p

Crazy Harborc
06-04-2006, 21:02
Several frequent and long time opponents and I regularly play WHFB without a need for a magic phase (no VC/Undead opponent). No magic phase toys, just the non-magic phase items in our games.

We don't normally use special characters in our games. We like tactics to really matter in the outcome of our games...........It's working for us, to each their own.

Strike Anywhere
07-04-2006, 01:53
Personally I love the imagery of your Lord general seeking out his opposing warrior, meeting him in a one and one duel whilst their armies swirl around them in melee.

Its what drew me to fantasy in the first place. I still remember the old school warhammer art where the empire and undead clash, the soldiers and skeletons leering at each other and bristling with polearms, while above them, a liche and an Imperial wizard rise, head and shoulders above their troops in single combat. I love that art and to me, it plays a vital attraction to fantasy.

People often forget that this is a fantasy game first and foremost. While tactics plays a large role, if I don't have magic and heroes then I might as well play warhammer ancients or any other historical wargame which has more tactics, large amounts of rank and file and no real characters to speak of.

Da GoBBo
07-04-2006, 19:57
Yep, a fanasy game. Thats why we have orcs, skaven, elves, lizzie's etc. And magic, yes. Thing is, it occured to me that my former armies which contained 5 boar boyz, one doomdiver, one or two wolf chariots, one giant, a lv 1 shaman to go with the boar boyz (+1 as :D ) a lv 3 shaman, one big night gobo unit with fanatics and plain orcs or savage orcs on foot (including 10 crossbowmen) for all my other points used to win me a lot of battles. This army is as subtle as a sledge hammer but seems te be working better than the carefully thought out armies I wield today. These armies contain some magic items, allthough the only items I really use these days are the doo-dash, the itty ring, the banner of butchery, the pigstikka and scrolls. Those are awsome items on paper, but I can't shake the feelin these, or any items or expensive characters are really worth it. For example, for 50 points I can give my general two extra attacks, or I can get a support unit with M9, or a gobbo unit. The points spend on 1 (boosted) big boss can also be used to cover an entire flank, no big boss can do that.

ps. Are there any undead players who just use some cheap necro's and a lot skellies and zombies besides them? What are yer experience with an army like that?

Strike Anywhere
08-04-2006, 06:19
For example, for 50 points I can give my general two extra attacks, or I can get a support unit with M9, or a gobbo unit. The points spend on 1 (boosted) big boss can also be used to cover an entire flank, no big boss can do that.

ps. Are there any undead players who just use some cheap necro's and a lot skellies and zombies besides them? What are yer experience with an army like that?

I guess some people play because they love fantasy, some play because they love to win.

Scythe
08-04-2006, 13:42
With dark elves, I usually don't spend much points on characters anyway. The highborn (well, I feel a highborn should lead the force) usually gets an enchanted shield to complement his armour, and a sword of might (yeah, I just hate to waste his initiative on a more effective but dull looking great weapon; magical blades are way cooler anyway), and possibly the seal of ghrond for an extra dispel dice. Throw in a single sorceress and I have all the characters I need.

Vampire Counts are different. Lords are kitted out to survive anything thrown at them, usually by bashing it until it stops moving. Usually full allowance used here. Necros are usually loaded with books, scrolls and other usefull supportive items, so also full load here. A wight lord never leaves home without the sword of the kings, and usually the gem of blood for annoyance to make him a character enemy characters stay miles away from. Vampire thralls are usually equiped lighter. Sometimes some magical armour, a enchanted shield or a cheap bloodline, but usually not full item allowance.

Da GoBBo
08-04-2006, 14:01
I guess some people play because they love fantasy, some play because they love to win.

Since this doesn't contribute anything to the thread, I think this is meant to be some personal attack against me. Silly thing to do. It's abvious you don't know me though so I wont really hold it against you though.
This is a tactics forum, where people discuss tactics. Tactics are meant to win you the battle, not lose you one. I found out that spending more points on magic and characters havn't turned battles in my favour. I wanted to know what other people thought about that, therefor I asked you all about this on the tactics forum. Some armies thrive on characters, others don't, You got an oppinion about that? And since your at it, how does not spending much points on charrs and magic spoil the fantasy part?

vcassano
08-04-2006, 14:40
As Strike Anywhere said, I love the imagery of your General seeking out the opposition's heroes and duelling with them. Also I feel that the general figure is the representation of you on the battlefield, and so naturally I like him to be as strong as possible. Then you have got to take into account the background - for Chaos I'd imagine that the leader being weak (Well, everything's in relation :D )would be wrong - someone stronger than him would usurp his position otherwise. It is for this reason that I gear up my Chaos Lord:
Runesword, Gaze of the Gods and a Shield for 313 points. Generally I'd think this too much but giving the above, I accept it.

Also in my 2000 point list the only other characters are an Aspiring Champion Battle Standard Bearer (I believe that in big games, these are a must, if only for the realism factor) and a Scroll Caddy so it all balances out really.

Strike Anywhere
08-04-2006, 17:00
Since this doesn't contribute anything to the thread, I think this is meant to be some personal attack against me. Silly thing to do.

This is a tactics forum, where people discuss tactics. Tactics are meant to win you the battle, not lose you one. Some armies thrive on characters, others don't, You got an oppinion about that? And since your at it, how does not spending much points on charrs and magic spoil the fantasy part?

In that comment you've both professed to being a gamer who plays with a focus to win, yet a gamer who gets hot in the pants when I point that out. Make of that what you will.

ROCKY
08-04-2006, 17:39
Can we cool it down please? Just because he does not tool out his character does not mean he plays to win. Maybe he views characters as necessary slot requirements? to be honest, orc and goblins in my experience do not make the best "ubber character" while in some armies (say woodelves) have very necessary characters. As mentioned before, characters do not win games alone, So why not get back to discussing the topic eh?

Scythe
08-04-2006, 21:46
This is rather funny; people who don't kit out their character to be a death dealing monster of doom are beardy?

lol

Anyway, let's keep this friendly. The topic is about how many items you take, not if taking magic items makes you a fluff nut or cheese monger.

Da GoBBo
08-04-2006, 22:31
Thx Scythe, that was all was trying to say when i pointed out this was a tactics forum.

And nope, I don't view characters as a necessary slot requirement. Characters have their uses. Give em a chariot and you got a fast, hard hitting flanking unit. Tool them up and you got some bugger that can deal a punch. A lot of players consider maxing out on characters to be cheesy (you know, an army that contains only one model that bothers, a chaos lord with an emperor dragon, a bloodthirster, a tooled up blooddragon with a unit of dreadknights etc.). Like I pointed out before characters never really helped me so why even bother? Why is it beardy?
You mention woodies. Apparently they do need characters. Why is that? Do they need em for combat? Or magic support? And what about lizzies, they got the toughest troops in the game, the best squirmishers, the best wizzards and the thoughest fightercharrs. Yet everybody keeps whining about skaven from time to time. Their characters arn't that impressive, yet their considered beardy with the right unit selection.

Mista strike, i can't help bein lured back into this kind of conversation. Yes, I do get hot in the pants when someone points out i play with a focus to win, instead of a focus to have fun. Like I said, you don't know me. I'v been playing this game for 7 years now and nobody has ever pointed that out to me, nor have i ever given anybody a reason for that. Not even you by the way. Sure, the things you quote might prove otherwise, but you didn't quote everything i wrote. This said, I commend you for picking out the stuff you think that matter, and focus on that. Thats good. It's a shame though you quoted a comment that was incomplete and therefor inaccurate. If you read more carefully through my posts, and read whole posts, you can read that I found out something quiet unusual (like Scythe said, its quiet funny) that made me wonder and I wanted to know what everybody thinks. You make it sound like I whining about my weak characters, which I'm not. Did you hear me ask for army lists with the least amount of points spend on characters? No, you didn't. Or did you hear me ask for the perfect character selection? No, you didn't hear me aks that, or anything related to that either. All that i wanted was your oppinion about someting i found out, something that took me 5 years to find out btw. which isn't really characteristic for player with a focus to win eh? Instead you give me crap and because i "get hot about it in me pants" when somebody gives me crap like this I felt the urge to go oftopic in my own thread for far to long now. Hope I didn't annoy some of you for too long.

Da GoBBo

taer
08-04-2006, 23:48
I like characters, and I like kitted out characters. However, for me at least, a character has never ever won me a game, but they lose me the game all the damn time (Just so you know, I mostly play Undivided Daemonic legion, but I've played nearly every other army out there as well.) Honestly, I think that tooled up characters are very very rarely worth the points you spend on them, especially if the main value of them for you is one of support. (Why the hell would you want to pay 100 points for crap to keep your general alive when you are only using him for the leadership boost? If you want to be points effective, keep him behind your main battle line!) Alas, I like big characters too much simply for the coolness factor that they end up costing me dearly.

Scythe
09-04-2006, 18:13
I agree. It is hard for a character to be really worth its points investment when it and its unit cost you more as 500 points. Sure, you might kill anything you charge. But when that unit you charge is only 150 pts, it is simply not that effective. I have seen a lot of scray characters in games never even reach combat, wasting their (formidable) potential. And I must admit I have become quite skilled in such avoiding tactics myself. When playing with dark elves, sure I can throw a tooled up highborn at a chaos lord tooled up, but then I am sure I am going to lose. I like the heroic doomed charge here and there, but I am not shooting myself in the foot.

Luke
09-04-2006, 18:18
I use my Characters as beefed up Unit champions. I rarely find magic weapons pay off. I may splash out on a dispell scroll or two for any wizards or a shiny shield for any fighters but thats it. True, I used to field absolute mosters and had some good laughs when they battered enemy characters in challenges but I'm edging more towards big hulking units and WHAB style of play.

Scythe
09-04-2006, 18:24
All this character discussion brings back memories of previous editions magic items. Hydra Blade, Crown of Sorcery, Heart of Woe, Blade of Cocacilla, now that were magic items!

Current magic items are usually worse as a great weapon and a suit of full plate armour...:(

Strike Anywhere
12-04-2006, 15:09
Thx Scythe, that was all was trying to say when i pointed out this was a tactics forum.

And nope, I don't view characters as a necessary slot requirement. Characters have their uses. Give em a chariot and you got a fast, hard hitting flanking unit. Tool them up and you got some bugger that can deal a punch. A lot of players consider maxing out on characters to be cheesy (you know, an army that contains only one model that bothers, a chaos lord with an emperor dragon, a bloodthirster, a tooled up blooddragon with a unit of dreadknights etc.). Like I pointed out before characters never really helped me so why even bother? Why is it beardy?
You mention woodies. Apparently they do need characters. Why is that? Do they need em for combat? Or magic support? And what about lizzies, they got the toughest troops in the game, the best squirmishers, the best wizzards and the thoughest fightercharrs. Yet everybody keeps whining about skaven from time to time. Their characters arn't that impressive, yet their considered beardy with the right unit selection.

Mista strike, i can't help bein lured back into this kind of conversation. Yes, I do get hot in the pants when someone points out i play with a focus to win, instead of a focus to have fun. Like I said, you don't know me. I'v been playing this game for 7 years now and nobody has ever pointed that out to me, nor have i ever given anybody a reason for that. Not even you by the way. Sure, the things you quote might prove otherwise, but you didn't quote everything i wrote. This said, I commend you for picking out the stuff you think that matter, and focus on that. Thats good. It's a shame though you quoted a comment that was incomplete and therefor inaccurate. If you read more carefully through my posts, and read whole posts, you can read that I found out something quiet unusual (like Scythe said, its quiet funny) that made me wonder and I wanted to know what everybody thinks. You make it sound like I whining about my weak characters, which I'm not. Did you hear me ask for army lists with the least amount of points spend on characters? No, you didn't. Or did you hear me ask for the perfect character selection? No, you didn't hear me aks that, or anything related to that either. All that i wanted was your oppinion about someting i found out, something that took me 5 years to find out btw. which isn't really characteristic for player with a focus to win eh? Instead you give me crap and because i "get hot about it in me pants" when somebody gives me crap like this I felt the urge to go oftopic in my own thread for far to long now. Hope I didn't annoy some of you for too long.

Da GoBBo

Way too long. Couldn't be bothered to read any of that. Can't be bothered being drawn into some long winded net argument about the petty foibles of wargaming. Hope that was worth the time spent typing. Good day.

ROCKY
12-04-2006, 15:18
Way too long. Couldn't be bothered to read any of that. Can't be bothered being drawn into some long winded net argument about the petty foibles of wargaming. Hope that was worth the time spent typing. Good day.
You brought this thread back just for this? so you can refuel a long dead argument?:mad:

Scythe
13-04-2006, 11:40
Way too long. Couldn't be bothered to read any of that. Can't be bothered being drawn into some long winded net argument about the petty foibles of wargaming. Hope that was worth the time spent typing. Good day.

Chees, if this is your reply, next time don't bother to type at all. :rolleyes:

Wargamejunkie
13-04-2006, 15:11
Yes, I thought it was pretty rude myself. All I wanted to do was read on Characters and Magic Items.

But since we are here, how do people here like to equip their Dwarf Lords, with all the Bells and whistles or Bare Bones.

Da GoBBo
13-04-2006, 15:25
Indeed. A Dwarflord with gromril armour and some good runes is nothing to be sneezed at. When fielded like this he will be avoided of course. When you do field him like this, I'd put him among common warriors ... next to some brutal unit. Ye cant avoid em all. If yer warriors get charged, the lord can dish out serious damage, if the other unit gets charged ... then they just charged one of the most elite units in the game, which isn't a bad thing. Dwarf characters are really scary, and one of the few fightercharacters of which I think it is worth it to tool them up and make all of your units that much nastier.

ROCKY
13-04-2006, 15:29
I would keep mine cheap, but effective. Give him shieldberers, rune of srone, and the master rune of smite+ a GW, 4S6 attacks and 2S4 attacks, 1+armor save, and a 4+ wardave and only wasting 50points on runes. and he still kicks butt!

Da GoBBo
13-04-2006, 15:53
What do the shieldbearers do? and what do they cost? (lets be fair about it, they should be added to those 50 points to)

ROCKY
13-04-2006, 15:57
What do the shieldbearers do? and what do they cost? (lets be fair about it, they should be added to those 50 points to)
No, because while they may be the king's hookers they are not his "property";) . anyways I think (I do not have the book in front of me) the cost 20points and they give him 2S3 attacks and a +2 to his armor save. oh and whats cooler is that he is NOT considered a large target.:D

Diego
13-04-2006, 17:23
2 WS5, S4 attacks and +2 armour save. He still counts as being on foot if you get a HW/Shield bonus, and he takes up two spots in the front rank rather than 1.

Scythe
14-04-2006, 09:14
A Dwarf playing friend of mine recently started using the 'charge this unit or flee' rune on is dwarf lord (or the standard that was in the lords unit, not sure). Worked pretty well, and at least insured his lord saw some combat, or scare something away.

Da GoBBo
14-04-2006, 10:19
2 WS5, S4 attacks and +2 armour save. He still counts as being on foot if you get a HW/Shield bonus, and he takes up two spots in the front rank rather than 1.

:cool: sounds really awesome for a measly twenty points, which arn't subtracted from the points ye get to spend on magic items. At the moment the only downside to this thing that I can see is that more creatures are able to hit him in combat, meh. It costs about as much as two warriors, gives better attacks in return AND a good save.


oh and whats cooler is that he is NOT considered a large target.

hehe, gues even three short creatures mounting eachother don't make for a large target. BTW, is this thing useable by big boss's too? Or only by Lords, or the general?

ROCKY
14-04-2006, 22:46
hehe, gues even three short creatures mounting eachother don't make for a large target. BTW, is this thing useable by big boss's too? Or only by Lords, or the general?[/QUOTE]


Well, it is assumed that he is not a large target because if he sees a cannon ball flying at him he will merely yell from them to drop him, so that the cannonball will fly harmlessly over him. as for who can use it, ONLY the dwarf lord. (slayers are always on foot) and the runelord has the anvil (4+ free wardsave against shooting? not bad!):evilgrin:

Crazy Harborc
15-04-2006, 02:44
A Dwarf playing friend of mine recently started using the 'charge this unit or flee' rune on is dwarf lord (or the standard that was in the lords unit, not sure). Worked pretty well, and at least insured his lord saw some combat, or scare something away.

I LIKE THAT idea. I guess I'll be making another change in my Dwarf roster for next week. I have wondered how that rune really does when used.

Scythe
15-04-2006, 11:18
Well, against me it was pretty nasty. My Dark Elves, coward bastards as they are (;)) usually steer away from those nasty units the Dwarf Lord is with, only charging when I can get a flank and rear charge at the same time at the end of the battle. The first time this rune was used, it was a nasty surprise for me, as it can really mess up battle plans. It is not nice to see cavalry smash themselves frontally into a Ironbreaker unit and losing half of the unit to a Dwarf Lord.

Neknoh
15-04-2006, 12:02
More often than not, I prefer to tool my characters specifikally to killing off Rank and File troops rather than slaughter characters (although when facing a Dragon, you can't say no to the Hellfire Sword :p)

This also helps the characters support the units they are in, even if it means making them snipable, for instance, smack a Daemonsword on a Beastlord of Khorne in a Beastherd, you now have a unit that cannot bite off more than it can chew, it can take on anything as long as it gets the charge.
A Foe Render accepts the incomming challenge and Gors and the Beastlord ripps the enemy unit appart.

An Exalted Champion with the Berserker Sword in a unit of marauders may not seem all too impressive, and I agree, however, put him on a Daemonic Steed and suddenly, you have a killing machine with at least 7 strength 5 attacks on his own, plus the attacks from his steed and the rest of the unit (or whack two Exalteds in there, one with the Berserker Sword and one with the Sword of Battle, both mounted on Daemonic Steeds, add a Banner and rank the unit up 5 x 5)

I am also very found of varius Strigoi setups when playing Vampire Counts, even if I prefer the Sylvanian list (yumyum, I call up a LOT of critters from your table edge round 1 or 2).
A Strigoi with Eternal Hatred and basically any other power has the killingcapacity of a Greater Daemon of Slaanesh whilst taking up only 20mm of base space in a unit.

So, I am not all too found of the END ALL BE ALL character slaying Blood Dragon or Chaos Lord builds, I prefer my characters to give my units a VERY fine boost in some way (either mass murdering the enemy units or boosting my own through powers)

This is also true for me playing Druchii, Assassins can be tooled to be the ultimate R&F killers, they can even take out stuff charging you, for instance, put an assassin with Additional Handweapon, Rune of Khaine and Manbane in a large block of Executioneers, your opponent won't know what hit him when he thinks he can wipe the entire front rank in the first round and the Assassin pops up.

This unit-setup is able to bring down most enemy blocks head on, even in prolonged combats, this is due to the high I of the Assassin enabling him to wipe the front rank, then, with no attacks back, it's the executioners turn to strike, and they can strike!

However, I cannot deny that I do love the Draich of Dark Power, trust me, once you pop, you can't stop. Put it on a hidden assassin and watch that enemy lord squirm when he is revealed, or, put it on a highborn on a peggy and go hunting for Knights

Scythe
15-04-2006, 21:23
I never had much luck with Druchii Assassins. Sure they can kill rank and file quite decent. However a tooled noble does almost the same, is better armoured and a lot cheaper. Shame, since Assassins are a very characterfull hero.

I did field Shadowblade one time tough, against High Elves. He killed over twice his points investment. 7 attacks + hatred a very nasty combination. My sorceress had taken Steed of Shadows, which enabled some extremely cool moves (charge a 10 man Silver Helm unit with hero after I broke trough the main HE battle line, activate Potion of Strenght, and rip apart the unit on your own :evilgrin:).

ROCKY
16-04-2006, 16:54
I never had much luck with Druchii Assassins. Sure they can kill rank and file quite decent. However a tooled noble does almost the same, is better armoured and a lot cheaper. Shame, since Assassins are a very characterfull hero.

I did field Shadowblade one time tough, against High Elves. He killed over twice his points investment. 7 attacks + hatred a very nasty combination. My sorceress had taken Steed of Shadows, which enabled some extremely cool moves (charge a 10 man Silver Helm unit with hero after I broke trough the main HE battle line, activate Potion of Strenght, and rip apart the unit on your own :evilgrin:).
Assassins are good in units that need an extra shove (witch elves have a lot of attacks but only s3. so here is example in which that assassin can add his high power poisons to the sheer number of witch blades.):evilgrin:

Neknoh
16-04-2006, 22:23
And, as I said, to a unit of Executioners, almost guaranteing them survival so that they can strike back.

A Noble does not strike first if his unit is charged, nor can he kill as much R&F as an Assassin with 5 attacks and Manbane, in subsequent turns, unless your Noble is armed with the Draich or Crimson Death, neither of which gives you all too many armour-options, your Noble will have a hard time striking down enough R&F troops to be worthwhile the investment.

But do note, I do NOT advocate on taking an Assassin to take out other characters (unless armed with the Draich of Dark Power that is), use Nobles and Highborns for that.

ROCKY
17-04-2006, 01:02
Nonsense! We assassins can challenge wizard characters as we please! *snickers*

Neknoh
17-04-2006, 01:09
Oh, don't be to sure, one bad round and that Warplock starts looking awfully dangerous (or an Empire wizard with VHS ¤shudders)

ROCKY
17-04-2006, 01:19
Oh, don't be to sure, one bad round and that Warplock starts looking awfully dangerous (or an Empire wizard with VHS ¤shudders)
Actually it would not do the wizard any good being that the assassin only has 3original s3attacks and T3, which means that he will still have 3attacks and the manbane!:eek:

Scythe
17-04-2006, 09:26
The assassin is S4. I thought the rune of khaine adds an extra attack to the profile of the assassin, does this mean this extra attack gets transfered as to the wizard with vhs as well?

We are getting quite of topic tough...

ROCKY
17-04-2006, 13:42
The assassin is S4. I thought the rune of khaine adds an extra attack to the profile of the assassin, does this mean this extra attack gets transfered as to the wizard with vhs as well?

We are getting quite of topic tough...
nope vhs only takes the ORIGINAL stats of the enemy, so if your electo pulls it off on archaon he gets 5attacks not the 10.

Scythe
17-04-2006, 14:05
I was aware that magic item increases aren't covered, but can you say the same about abilities? Not sure about the rune of khaine in this case, but I am pretty sure the Blood Dragon Bloodline Red Fury adds +1 attack to the vampires profile.

ROCKY
17-04-2006, 16:28
I was aware that magic item increases aren't covered, but can you say the same about abilities? Not sure about the rune of khaine in this case, but I am pretty sure the Blood Dragon Bloodline Red Fury adds +1 attack to the vampires profile.
true, but noticed what you said: adding to the profile, VHS only takes the unmodified ORIGINAL profile.

Neknoh
17-04-2006, 18:03
Which luckily renders it useless aggainst the Daemonsword (or rather next to useless).

Anyway, back on topic:

Do you use End All Be All Characters of Doom?

Da GoBBo
18-04-2006, 06:18
true, but noticed what you said: adding to the profile, VHS only takes the unmodified ORIGINAL profile.

Some people transfer stat boosts given by items to their profile. Thats why they say original (unmodified) profile. Stat boosts given by bloodlines and kindereds (woodies) very much alter the profile, but this time due to training or physical variation, and are transfered by items like the VHS.

on topic: If a level four shaman with the doo-dash is such a character, then yes.