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View Full Version : Enkhil's Kanopi vs Gut Magic Spells



Lord Inquisitor
01-07-2011, 04:03
Simple one, Enkhil's Kanopi (hopefully I've got the item right, the bound spell that dispells all Remains in Play spells on a 2+) from the Tomb King book against Ogres with multiple Gut Magic spells in play.

Gut Magic spells are explicitly not Remains in Play spells. However, they are treated as if they were Remains in Play spells with power level 7 for the purposes of dispelling. The Kanopi bound spell affects all Remains in Play spells and dispels them. So does the item affect Gut magic?

During the game I was willing to accept the spell constituted a dispel and therefore the Gut spells counted as if they were Remains in Play for the item, but I'm still not 100% - they're not RiP, can the item work on them?

AMWOOD co
01-07-2011, 05:09
You said it yourself:

they are treated as if they were Remains in Play spells with power level 7 for the purposes of dispelling.

They are considered Remain in Play for dispelling purposes, and so any item/spell that dispells Remain in Play spells will affect Gut Magic spells.

Mid'ean
01-07-2011, 11:02
I disagree. As stated they are NOT rip spells so it doesn't matter how you dispell them. The statement on how to dispell gut magic is to give the opponent a reference and power level on how to go about dispelling them. It's poor wording...again...by GW...go figure

jtrowell
01-07-2011, 13:05
If they are treated exactly as RiP spells (with a power level of 7) during dispelling attemps, why would the canopy don't work ?

I play both Ogres and TK, and I have seen countless time the "Guts magic are not really RiP, the FAQ means that they are only treated like them *when dispelling*", and if I can agree with this interpretation, you have to take it fully and accept than the canopy *is* a dispel on RiP spells, and so should be able to dispel Guts Magic spells, like a dispel scroll is an automatic dispel replacing the use of power dice.

Hopefully we will get a new Ogre book soon and it won't matter anymore.

GodlessM
01-07-2011, 13:41
Treated as RiP for dispelling them means they are dispelled in the same manner, not they are RiP. In fact the Gut Magic rules specifically say they are not RiP but rather lasting effects.

narrativium
01-07-2011, 13:42
Some spells aren't Remains in Play, they just last more than one magic phase and can't be dispelled (Flesh to Stone for example, if memory serves). If Enkhil's Kanopi would end those spells (and it doesn't sound like they can) then it shouldn't dispel Gut Magic spells, which aren't Remains in Play either.

If it ended all spells in play, rather than just Remains in Play spells, then it would affect Gut Magic.

Mid'ean
01-07-2011, 13:55
Hopefully we will get a new Ogre book soon and it won't matter anymore.

Pretty much my thoughts. Looking forward to seeing what makes it into the new book for spells and magic items....:)

AMWOOD co
01-07-2011, 19:04
That Gut Magic spells are not remains in play means that certain conditions of Remains in Play spells are not met. They don't require you to dispell them before casting again, they don't end when the caster dies, and they can't be voluntarily ended.

The rule that you mentioned, however, states that they are considered Remain in Play spells for purposes of dispelling (at a specific power level), and so should be treated as such. If something states it will dispel a Remains in Play spell, then a Gut Magic spell is considered one just for that purpose.

Note that spells that last for a specific duration (eg. until the next magic phase), have their own rules listed after Remains in Play spells and are not considered Remains in Play spells in any respect.

Ravenar
01-07-2011, 19:12
I can see both sides of the discussion, really. I guess I woud need to see the exact wording of the item and reread how gut magic is treated as Rip to fall off the fence one way or the other. Right now, I would probably just dice it off before hand. This one is a good one though.

DeathlessDraich
02-07-2011, 11:16
The problem is Enkhil's Kanopi is not just an act of dispelling.

It is casting a spell which then auto dispels.

So while Gut magic is RIP for dispelling,
it is not RIP when spells are cast that affect RIP.
So toss a coin. :)

N.B. Before anyone jumps down my throat, can I add I know considerations should be made of spell targets etc etc.

@ Lord Inquisitor - I would not use Enkhil's against Ogres specifically because if it is decided (or rolled) that Enkhil's will affect Gut magic, then

you will gain a huge (unfair) advantage - Use all (6) power dice to cast Enkhil's. The Ogre player will very likely fail to dispel.
Then there is a 5/6 chance of generating D3 additional dice for each Gut magic spell in play. Then use all these additional dice to cast other spells which cannot be dispelled

decker_cky
02-07-2011, 17:37
Gut Magic spells are remains in play spells for the dispelling.
Enkhil's Kanopi dispels remains in play spells (among other things).
Therefore, Gut Magic spells are dispelled by Enkhil's Kanopi.

That's how I see it, so I agree with Lord Inquisitor's logic.

Balance shouldn't be used as an argument.

Mid'ean
03-07-2011, 01:28
So they are not RIP's when casting. But when you want to dispel them they magically turn into RIP spells.....right......:shifty:

Gooner
03-07-2011, 01:33
Deathless' logic is correct:

At the time of casting the Kanopi the Gut magic spells are not RIP so it would not affect them. They become RIP when you are rolling the dice to dispel them. Once the dice have been rolled and you check against power level 7, then they become effects again.

JDman
03-07-2011, 07:15
I agree that the Kanopi would not affect Gut Magic, and this is from a TK player.

As it mentions for gut magic they do not count as Remains in Play spells, the TK item specifically mentions that it works on RiP spells. Regardless of how they are dispelled those qualifiers have been met.

How gut magic is dispelled is irrelevant, all that it implies is the mechanics on how you would dispel them under normal conditions, which the Kanopi is not.

Far2Casual
04-07-2011, 08:28
My point of view is that it works.

Everything in the game that relates to the dissipation of RiP spells apply to active Gut Magic spells. For example, if your Butcher dies, his spells are automatically dispelled. Unused dissipation dices can be used to dispell active Gut Magic spells.

The last sentence of the FAQ clearly states :

If yes, are the Gut Magic spells treatd as Remains in Play spells cast with a Power level of 7 [for the purpose of dispelling] ?

To me, if they are treated as Remains in Play spells, they are affected by the Kanopi.

The Clairvoyant
04-07-2011, 10:33
I would say the kanopi works against gut magic.

The whole problem arises because RiP spells worked differently in 6th ed magic - i.e your RiP spell was dispelled if the wizard cast another spell. That would make the gut magic buffs rather useless as each butcher would only get to cast one spell a turn.
Now i appreciate that puts it into the realm of RAI which some people hate, but its useful background information.

Now then, the spells count as RiP spells (at power level 7) for purposes of dispelling. The kanopi dispels RiP spells. Kanopi dispels Gut magic that count as RiP spells for purposes of dispelling.

However, in my case, if i knew i was facing my friend who plays ogres, i'd discuss with him before the game what the outcome is, and then drop the item if we can't agree.

Lord Inquisitor
04-07-2011, 20:16
@ Lord Inquisitor - I would not use Enkhil's against Ogres specifically because if it is decided (or rolled) that Enkhil's will affect Gut magic, then

you will gain a huge (unfair) advantage - Use all (6) power dice to cast Enkhil's. The Ogre player will very likely fail to dispel.
Then there is a 5/6 chance of generating D3 additional dice for each Gut magic spell in play. Then use all these additional dice to cast other spells which cannot be dispelled
True, but then if you roll box cars with those six dice, you lose the item. Much more often it is used with a couple of dice to draw out some certain dispel dice, or used at the end of the magic phase when the ogre player has either let spells through or used up their dice dispelling other spells.


The whole problem arises because RiP spells worked differently in 6th ed magic - i.e your RiP spell was dispelled if the wizard cast another spell. That would make the gut magic buffs rather useless as each butcher would only get to cast one spell a turn.
Now i appreciate that puts it into the realm of RAI which some people hate, but its useful background information.
Agreed, most issues with gut magic would be solved if they were simply remains in play spells.

There is one big (if slightly contentious) difference, which is that not being Remains in Play spells, gut magic aren't restricted to not recasting the same spell from the same caster while it is in play. So a single butcher could cast Trollguts again when one "copy" is already in play. I don't think this was at all intended by the 8th ed errata, but it seems to be fairly accepted by ogre players.

decker_cky
05-07-2011, 00:31
They also aren't dispelled on their minimal casting value.

Mercules
06-07-2011, 13:32
There is one big (if slightly contentious) difference, which is that not being Remains in Play spells, gut magic aren't restricted to not recasting the same spell from the same caster while it is in play. So a single butcher could cast Trollguts again when one "copy" is already in play. I don't think this was at all intended by the 8th ed errata, but it seems to be fairly accepted by ogre players.

We have had this discussion before and Butchers/Slaughtermasters have been able to cast additional copies of their spells since 6th edition. The only thing the 8th Edition Errata did was remove the restriction of a unit having more than one Gutmagic spell on it at a time. It didn't in any way change if an Ogre Caster can cast a "copy" of a spell he cast last turn.