PDA

View Full Version : WTF Games Workshop?!?



vinush
02-07-2011, 13:47
Hey guys, just been gluing together some random models and was struck by how ridiculous some of the GW sculpts have become of late.

I mean, they've always skirted the edge of sanity with some of their models (Orc cheerleader, I'm looking at you here!) but I've just assembled the Greatsword Champion model off the plastic sprue and was amazed at the size of the feather on this guy's head!

I've often thought they were getting a bit silly with some of the feathers on the Empire range, but this one takes the cake! It's so long that it is deliberately sculpted to flop down under its own weight, but it reaches the back of the guy's knees!

So, I thought I would start a thread on here so we can point out the ridiculous sculpting madness on some of the Warhammer Fantasy Battle models we've noticed of late.

THE \/ince

snottlebocket
02-07-2011, 14:55
I think the current "what's new today" article is a great example. They're talking about how they're shoving skulls onto everything, even between the roots of trees. And they're saying it like it's a good thing.

Probably the most unintentionally funny thing I've read in a long time.


In a fit of madness and curiosity, I actually counted all the skulls, ranging from 16 on Balewind Vortex, all the way up to a whopping 114 on Eternity Stair (The other two had around 50 each). If that doesn't warn you of their mystical power, nothing will.

You have to admit though. I don't know any company that works harder at making it impossible to take them seriously.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=17400020a

drear
02-07-2011, 14:59
because dragons and wizards is a very sensible serious idea?

big feathers and skull toting scenery is what warhammer is built on.
and youd be surprised how many skulls and demon heads make it onto alot of real world archetecture.
would you complain because the catacombs under france have to many skelitons?
or notre dame had to many gargoyles?

Zoring
02-07-2011, 15:07
It's like Jervis' standard bearer articles, i used to look forward to reading them but recently, ugh, trotting the company line. In the latest one down the bottom is a plastic/metal/finecast figure and i said without reading the article, bet he's gonna say omg finecast is the best. Surprise surprise. He did.

snottlebocket
02-07-2011, 15:07
because dragons and wizards is a very sensible serious idea?

big feathers and skull toting scenery is what warhammer is built on.
and youd be surprised how many skulls and demon heads make it onto alot of real world archetecture.
would you complain because the catacombs under france have to many skelitons?
or notre dame had to many gargoyles?

Your idea of an example is listing the few places where such iconography would actually be in the right place?

GodlessM
02-07-2011, 15:15
You know what's sillier than GW's sculpting? People that forget that they are Fantasy miniatures. The fact that there are Elves, and Manticores, and Skeletons animated by magic immediately throws logic out of the window. It is meant to be over the top.

snottlebocket
02-07-2011, 15:22
You know what's sillier than GW's sculpting? People that forget that they are Fantasy miniatures. The fact that there are Elves, and Manticores, and Skeletons animated by magic immediately throws logic out of the window. It is meant to be over the top.

That is such a weak excuse though. You think lord of the rings would have been such a success in theatre if they made everything look like bad halloween props?

vinush
02-07-2011, 15:27
Hey, I'll bang your heads together! :D

THE \/ince

Commissar Vaughn
02-07-2011, 15:28
Skulls, like beer, drugs, baccy, gamma radiation, cabbage patch dolls and pretty much everything else in the universe are perfectly fine....in moderation.

Skywave
02-07-2011, 15:35
Warhammer is a bit more "in-your-face" fantasy than LotR though.

But I still think that shoving skulls everywhere is a bit too much. When they are used as decorations on buildings and models, I'm generally fine with it. But when you have cracks on the ground only to find skulls in them, or skulls stucked in every corner posible because they could'nt fit it on the model itself (like the Cockatrice), it start to get ridiculous to me. Heck even scenery like the Witchfare Tower use skulls for massonery, wth!

AlexHolker
02-07-2011, 15:36
because dragons and wizards is a very sensible serious idea?
Only if you do it right. There is no setting so inherently absurd that its creators can't at least try to treat it with respect.

drear
02-07-2011, 15:40
listing the few places where such iconography would actually be in the right place?


so an ancient magically constructed tower or stairway to a magic void is not the correct place for figure heads and skulls?

i supose they should be double glazed and damp proofed with sensible mdf walls?


also giant skulls and fire sell products. if GW produced medival building replicas at heroic scale..they would not attract the same crowd

snottlebocket
02-07-2011, 16:17
Only if you do it right. There is no setting so inherently absurd that its creators can't at least try to treat it with respect.

I don't even mind a bit of absurdity. I sure liked warhammer a lot better back when it had a ton of humor in it.

What I mind is that they're being serious about it. Warhammer has become grim dark to the point of... well people inventing the phrase grim dark and treating the game world like the joke it is. But GW is being serious about it. Warhammer in it's current design is basically a parody of grim, gothic fantasy... Except it's not, they're being serious about it. They actually think it's a good thing and present it as such.

It's perfectly acceptable to create a world that is dark, dangerous, brooding and foreboding. But at least do it right. Just look at movies like dark city, some of the aliens movies, even blade runner. Great atmosphere but hardly a skull in sight. Claiming you want a dark universe and then making it look like a cheap halloween display simply doesn't work. And the fact that they keep doing it just loses them so much credibility.

People laugh at the red period but at least that one displayed exactly what it stood for. The real embarrasing disaster is GW's decade long gaudy halloween period.

MOMUS
02-07-2011, 16:22
To be fair GW has always had a special liking for skulls, try looking at some of the older books or games.

Talisman, now thats a game with alot of skulls. Skull chalice, skull shield, sword of the awsome skull and even if you were walking along a 'normal' road/hill/field/crag there were always a few skulls (or skull shaped rocks) scattered around.

Spider-pope
02-07-2011, 16:28
Warhammer is a bit more "in-your-face" fantasy than LotR though.

But I still think that shoving skulls everywhere is a bit too much. When they are used as decorations on buildings and models, I'm generally fine with it. But when you have cracks on the ground only to find skulls in them, or skulls stucked in every corner posible because they could'nt fit it on the model itself (like the Cockatrice), it start to get ridiculous to me. Heck even scenery like the Witchfare Tower use skulls for massonery, wth!

See i don't mind them being all over buildings, there are plenty of buildings in the real world jam packed with skulls. But i don't really like the cracks full of skulls on the RoM board, just because it limits your options for theming the board without extra work. While skulls a plenty might fit the northern wastes or the sands of khemri, it doesn't really fit if i wanted the board to represent somewhere like Ulthuan.

Hellebore
02-07-2011, 16:29
My biggest peeve is that the over sized design of GW's miniatures retroactively leaks back into the design through 3rd party licensees. It's all well and good to make an ork with a pistol as big as a human's leg in order to make a nice model, but's it's a different matter when that is taken as the LITERAL size of an ork pistol. See the horrible ultramarines movie as an example where they simply took miniature proportions as accurate. Or the upcoming spac marine game where all the orks are toting axes with blades 4" thick.

I'm completely over 'heroic scale', if it requires that an eldar shuriken pistol be as long as the wielder's leg (the splinter pistol is just as bad). The same applies to oversized feathers et al.

Hellebore

snottlebocket
02-07-2011, 16:29
To be fair GW has always had a special liking for skulls, try looking at some of the older books or games.
Talisman, now thats a game with alot of skulls.

I know but at least the games were less serious back then. Lots of humor, bit of a cartoony atmosphere.

If they actually passed of the current look as a spoof or a parody I would have appreciated it a great deal more. Something like a discworld style joke on grim D&D type games. That's something that would have made sense in the context.

Take that fire fulcrum for instance. The one covered in a small horde of grim reapers (In the world of warhammer, one Death is not enough!) along with a whole bunch of skulls, skull architecture, skull braziers, skull shaped flames and so on. I think it looks hilarious, but the thought that that's not what it's going for is rather sad.

BBWags
02-07-2011, 16:31
I would agree! And honestly, I don't mind skulls on architecture at all, but like another mentioned, when it seems like there is a sea of skulls just below the surface of the earth so that when a piece of terrain has a crack in it, you automatically have leering skulls peering up out. . . its a bit much.

And actually, the feathers are the single biggest reason I decided against Empire as my first FB army. I could handle the uniforms designed for bright gaudy colors (just barely), but the feathers just did me in on that idea.

Anyway, to add something else according to the original topic, though maybe slightly bent:

What the heck, GW, why oh why do you give us an awesome model of a High Elf Prince on Griffon when the Griffon is so worthless to play!! It breaks my heart! And yes, I'm setting myself up to get lambasted by the folks who think you should always play the models you like regardless of the rules, but let me just say in my defense, "How fun is it to have a beautiful model that you spent hours to paint excellently only to have it killed in the first two turns of each game without ever contributing anything to the game?"

So that's my biggest gripe. Beautiful models with horrid rules . . . break . . . my . . . gaming . . . heart . . .

MOMUS
02-07-2011, 16:33
But i don't really like the cracks full of skulls on the RoM board, just because it limits your options... it doesn't really fit if i wanted the board to represent somewhere like Ulthuan.

Didnt you know that whenever somebody invades Ulthuan the High elves sweep all the enemy dead under the turf.
They dont want their island looking like some dirty talisman board.

The bearded one
02-07-2011, 16:35
It's like Jervis' standard bearer articles, i used to look forward to reading them but recently, ugh, trotting the company line. In the latest one down the bottom is a plastic/metal/finecast figure and i said without reading the article, bet he's gonna say omg finecast is the best. Surprise surprise. He did.

I quikly skimmed over it to see if he called it 'crisp'. He did :p

snottlebocket
02-07-2011, 16:37
Didnt you know that whenever somebody invades Ulthuan the High elves sweep all the enemy dead under the turf.
They dont want their island looking like some dirty talisman board.

They should sweep them a little deeper under the turf. All it takes is a little rain and I got skulls everywhere between the roots of my trees. Kinda makes you wonder what they do with the rest of the bodies. Maybe one of these days GW will start giving plastic buildings interiors and we'll see some very morbid furniture indeed.

Erazmus_M_Wattle
02-07-2011, 16:42
For ever person who hates the profusion of skulls and ridiculous feathers there's s person who lives it. Like me.

The Warhammer setting has become better and more defined with every passing year. So some don't like it. At least it defines their miniatures as being GW rather than any other miniatures company.

Vishok
02-07-2011, 16:44
That is such a weak excuse though. You think lord of the rings would have been such a success in theatre if they made everything look like bad halloween props?
This logic doesn't work.

If it did, Warhammer and GW in general would be obscure and this board would not exist.

AFnord
02-07-2011, 16:49
Your idea of an example is listing the few places where such iconography would actually be in the right place?
I bring you the church in Kutna Hora (about 60km outside of Prague):
http://www.wayfaring.info/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/kutna-hora-kostnice2.jpg



You know what's sillier than GW's sculpting? People that forget that they are Fantasy miniatures. The fact that there are Elves, and Manticores, and Skeletons animated by magic immediately throws logic out of the window. It is meant to be over the top.

Just because it is fantasy does not mean that it has to be stupid.

snottlebocket
02-07-2011, 16:49
This logic doesn't work.

If it did, Warhammer and GW in general would be obscure and this board would not exist.

GW was already market leader before they took this turn. (at the time because they hardly had any decent competition) And frankly they seem to spend every annual shareholders meeting excusing them selfs for declining numbers and losses.

rodmillard
02-07-2011, 16:59
For ever person who hates the profusion of skulls and ridiculous feathers there's s person who lives it. Like me.


You live a profusion of skulls and ridiculous feathers?! What do you do in your day job? :p

vinush
02-07-2011, 17:03
That would have been funnier Rod if you'd not put a typo in there yourself.

rodmillard
02-07-2011, 17:16
Corrected. Although there is a school of thought that says it was funnier because I had a typo in there myself ;)

Leogun_91
02-07-2011, 17:27
See i don't mind them being all over buildings, there are plenty of buildings in the real world jam packed with skulls. But i don't really like the cracks full of skulls on the RoM board, just because it limits your options for theming the board without extra work. While skulls a plenty might fit the northern wastes or the sands of khemri, it doesn't really fit if i wanted the board to represent somewhere like Ulthuan.It is fairly easy to just have sand or grass cover the cracks though, my local GW did it for their Lotr gameboard and it looks great.
They had all that place and thought they could give you the option of some weird fantasy terrain thing that would be hard to make in a later plastic terrain box, now skulls might not have been my first choice but as it isn't too hard to cover the terrain up I can (and will) just not use the skulls on my board and have sand or grass there instead.

Lyinar
02-07-2011, 18:08
http://www.historical-costumes.eu/I_14_Landsknecht_gross.237x388.jpg
Actual illustration of a proper German Landsknecht.

The OMG-PLUMAGE! of the Empire's soldiery isn't that over-the-top compared to what it's based on.

Having skulls literally everywhere does get a bit repetitive, though.

vinush
02-07-2011, 18:10
Oh my god, that is the campest thing I've ever seen in my life, and I've seen some very camp things in my time.

The bearded one
02-07-2011, 18:16
Those sleeves are so puffy, I wouldn't be suprised if they actually stopped enemy weapons ^^

snottlebocket
02-07-2011, 18:22
Those sleeves are so puffy, I wouldn't be suprised if they actually stopped enemy weapons ^^

They're not so much puffy as slashed. They're wearing two layers of clothing in contrasting colors. The outer layer is slashed to oversized ribbons to allow the inner color to show through.

artisturn
02-07-2011, 18:25
Where some see extremely puffy sleeves I see a possibility for a four plus puffy sleeve save.

(sounded funnier when I was thinking it)

vinush
02-07-2011, 18:29
As is often the case. Lol.

Another WTF? model is the yettee. Really, they think they look good?

TheMav80
02-07-2011, 19:06
I bring you the church in Kutna Hora (about 60km outside of Prague):
http://www.wayfaring.info/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/kutna-hora-kostnice2.jpg






Even in real life that looks damned stupid.

RanaldLoec
02-07-2011, 19:07
It is a question of science.

Our world is built on atoms and other smaller sub atomic particles that brain dudes in Europe have tried to find by building a gaint 574ft hadron collider in Switzerland.

Or the atom racing ring as its commonly known as the real reason behind the creation of the hadron collider is that the scientist where bored of finding new breeds of turnip and wanted to race their pet atoms in a dangerous and deadly event.

Any way I digress

The warhammer world is built from skulls not atoms, if you don't believe that then err

A wizard did it! :D

dragonet111
02-07-2011, 19:18
http://www.historical-costumes.eu/I_14_Landsknecht_gross.237x388.jpg
Actual illustration of a proper German Landsknecht.

The OMG-PLUMAGE! of the Empire's soldiery isn't that over-the-top compared to what it's based on.

Having skulls literally everywhere does get a bit repetitive, though.

I'm sure he had some nasty tricks up his sleeve........... sorry

stashman
02-07-2011, 19:19
That is such a weak excuse though. You think lord of the rings would have been such a success in theatre if they made everything look like bad halloween props?

:yes:

Great one

Son of Morkai
02-07-2011, 19:23
They should sweep them a little deeper under the turf. All it takes is a little rain and I got skulls everywhere between the roots of my trees. Kinda makes you wonder what they do with the rest of the bodies. Maybe one of these days GW will start giving plastic buildings interiors and we'll see some very morbid furniture indeed.

I hear dark and morbid stories of Dwarvish Fortresses that turn the bones of their enemies into crossbow bolts, so that they can kill more and more of the cannibalistic elvish scum. But not the skulls. Skulls are good for nothing but skull piles... :p

Skywave
02-07-2011, 19:25
Another thing I'm not personally found off is the oversized weapons.

Especially since I started Empire.

I can take a big weapon on a Vampire or Orcs or Chaos dude, but even with all the "heroic-scale" thing, I can't get pass an Empire hero with a mace bigger than his torso, holding it effortlesssly in one hand over his head! A thing like that would weight 150-200 pounds!

Or super thick blade, or overly big handle/shaft were the fingers can't reach the thumb, it's just something that bugs me, fortunaly most recent release are better in that regard.

vinush
02-07-2011, 19:27
He he. Reread that last one and say it's just me that finds it filthy.

Shadowsinner
02-07-2011, 19:28
Archaeologist space explorers will one day visit the warhammer world with excitement and a lust for knowledge of its civilizations. Then they will trip on a crack in the ground and unearth tens of millions of skulls under the soil, and scream and flee this horrible place to never return.

come to think of it, it bothers me that there are nothing but skulls yet the other 205 bones in the body are never to be found... makes me wonder what theyre doing with the bodies... or perhaps another theory is that every creature in the world is really just a floating head with a boneless body attached

unheilig
02-07-2011, 19:29
The realm of battle board revealed the true secret... the warhammer world has a geological layer of skulls. Skulls are a natural and renewable resource there.

Andy p
02-07-2011, 19:47
Pfff I dont care what anyone says, im going to field my flaming skull made of other skulls that floats on skulls and shoots other flaming skulls out of it's mouth and those skulls are made up of skulls which are also going to shoot flaming skulls out of their mouths which are also going to be made of skulls..........

In short im damn well going to field my skull beasts and you will like it.

Son of Morkai
02-07-2011, 20:01
The realm of battle board revealed the true secret... the warhammer world has a geological layer of skulls. Skulls are a natural and renewable resource there.

Skulls are a natural and renewable resource here too. ;)

rodmillard
02-07-2011, 20:08
He he. Reread that last one and say it's just me that finds it filthy.

Its not just you.

Some of the weapons really get to me - especially the swords on the swordmasters of Hoeth: they're carrying weapons taller than them, which are as thick as their own arms (which are not exactly slim), and the sharpest point, if it was scaled up to real size, would be an inch wide! And yet they are supposed to swing these "blades" faster than a normal human can react...

There shouldn't be any skulls in the warhammer world. Every casualty in battle would die a gruesome death as they had their head caved in by 150 Lbs of solid steel!

SunTzu
02-07-2011, 20:08
I remember reading the designer's notes for the old Dark Emissary and Truthsayer when Albion was just about to hit. I remember for the Dark Emissary, they said they deliberately avoided putting skulls on it, because skulls could be overdone and they were a basically lazy way to make something look "cartoon evil". I remember thinking, hey, that's true, very valid point and I respect them for not taking the easy way out.

Then I turned the page and saw that the Truthsayer model had two skulls on it.

It's silly, it's lazy, it's nonsensical, it's unconvincing and it makes a mockery of the detailed, multi-layered and multi-faceted world GW have created. Having skulls on everything is just irritating... first thing I do when I get a new model nowadays is file all the skulls off, unless what I am painting is an actual skeleton. There's always, always at least one... and now they're boasting about a terrain piece with hundreds of the bloody things? It's just sad, really.

It's like when a comedian hits the big time with an off-the-cuff funny remark, like "I didn't do it" or something, and all he does for the next ten years is say "I didn't do it! I didn't do it!" over and over again, because he hasn't actually got any other material and is desperate to stay in the limelight and doesn't really know how to replicate what actually made him successful in the first place, and now audiences are getting bored and far from being greeted with an uproarious laugh, every time he says "I didn't do it!" there's the sound of crickets, an embarrassed cough and maybe a bit of tumbleweed rolling past. GW and skulls is like that. They've completely lost their way, they don't know what they're doing any more and the only thing they can think of trying is to put skulls all over everything.

Hey look, there goes some more tumbleweed.

Spider-pope
02-07-2011, 20:48
I remember reading the designer's notes for the old Dark Emissary and Truthsayer when Albion was just about to hit. I remember for the Dark Emissary, they said they deliberately avoided putting skulls on it, because skulls could be overdone and they were a basically lazy way to make something look "cartoon evil". I remember thinking, hey, that's true, very valid point and I respect them for not taking the easy way out.

Then I turned the page and saw that the Truthsayer model had two skulls on it.

It's silly, it's lazy, it's nonsensical, it's unconvincing and it makes a mockery of the detailed, multi-layered and multi-faceted world GW have created. Having skulls on everything is just irritating... first thing I do when I get a new model nowadays is file all the skulls off, unless what I am painting is an actual skeleton. There's always, always at least one... and now they're boasting about a terrain piece with hundreds of the bloody things? It's just sad, really.

It's like when a comedian hits the big time with an off-the-cuff funny remark, like "I didn't do it" or something, and all he does for the next ten years is say "I didn't do it! I didn't do it!" over and over again, because he hasn't actually got any other material and is desperate to stay in the limelight and doesn't really know how to replicate what actually made him successful in the first place, and now audiences are getting bored and far from being greeted with an uproarious laugh, every time he says "I didn't do it!" there's the sound of crickets, an embarrassed cough and maybe a bit of tumbleweed rolling past. GW and skulls is like that. They've completely lost their way, they don't know what they're doing any more and the only thing they can think of trying is to put skulls all over everything.

Hey look, there goes some more tumbleweed.

Or alternatively it's just a natural change in aesthetic styles that will eventualy fade away and change to something else. Like the famous red period of GW, back when i started, when it was almost unheard of to see a GW colour scheme that didn't include tremendous amounts of bright red paint.

AFnord
02-07-2011, 21:06
I hear dark and morbid stories of Dwarvish Fortresses that turn the bones of their enemies into crossbow bolts, so that they can kill more and more of the cannibalistic elvish scum. But not the skulls. Skulls are good for nothing but skull piles... :p

Going a bit off topic here, but people have actually designed systems meant to maximize the amount of usable skeleton parts from enemies & kittens. You see, kill an enemy and you will get a limited amount of usable parts. Make sure that the enemy splatters over a large area and you will get more usable bits. Because of this people have designed pit traps with just the right depth to make the enemies splatter over a wide area, without it being hard for the dwarfs to get down there. Better yet, you can drop down kittens into the trap as well, thus getting a lot of usable bits from kittens.

Skulls can be made into totems, which in turn can be sold for profit. Thus skulls=Profit.

Eurytus
02-07-2011, 21:10
Models need to look 'cool', not over the top or comic.

Balerion
02-07-2011, 21:57
I remember reading the designer's notes for the old Dark Emissary and Truthsayer when Albion was just about to hit. I remember for the Dark Emissary, they said they deliberately avoided putting skulls on it, because skulls could be overdone and they were a basically lazy way to make something look "cartoon evil". I remember thinking, hey, that's true, very valid point and I respect them for not taking the easy way out.

Then I turned the page and saw that the Truthsayer model had two skulls on it.

It's silly, it's lazy, it's nonsensical, it's unconvincing and it makes a mockery of the detailed, multi-layered and multi-faceted world GW have created. Having skulls on everything is just irritating... first thing I do when I get a new model nowadays is file all the skulls off, unless what I am painting is an actual skeleton. There's always, always at least one... and now they're boasting about a terrain piece with hundreds of the bloody things? It's just sad, really.

It's like when a comedian hits the big time with an off-the-cuff funny remark, like "I didn't do it" or something, and all he does for the next ten years is say "I didn't do it! I didn't do it!" over and over again, because he hasn't actually got any other material and is desperate to stay in the limelight and doesn't really know how to replicate what actually made him successful in the first place, and now audiences are getting bored and far from being greeted with an uproarious laugh, every time he says "I didn't do it!" there's the sound of crickets, an embarrassed cough and maybe a bit of tumbleweed rolling past. GW and skulls is like that. They've completely lost their way, they don't know what they're doing any more and the only thing they can think of trying is to put skulls all over everything.

Hey look, there goes some more tumbleweed.
Are you having a laugh?

:shifty:

Is he having a laugh?

snottlebocket
02-07-2011, 21:59
I hear dark and morbid stories of Dwarvish Fortresses that turn the bones of their enemies into crossbow bolts, so that they can kill more and more of the cannibalistic elvish scum. But not the skulls. Skulls are good for nothing but skull piles... :p

Good sir, you do the noble skull an injustice. This humble bone construct has a myriad of uses in and around the hovel. Skull cups, skull bowls, tiny skull spoons, skull bannister ends, skull vases, skull wash basins, novelty skull peepholes for those late night knocks on the door, fluff lined skull slippers to ease your feet at the end of a hard day and much, much more.

Skulls have near limitless applications but don't forget, even when you don't see them, our skulls are hard at work making your life easier. A thick layer of skulls will greatly improve your lawn drainage, ground up skull mortar holds many fine homes together these days and when times are hard, grandma always has a few recipes for baking with powdered skull and water.

So do not listen to those dissenting voices claiming we have a vested interest in keeping the eternal warmachine going. Remember, Skull Industries is your friend. Skull Industries, using our heads to make the world a better place.

Karak Norn Clansman
02-07-2011, 22:02
The realm of battle board revealed the true secret... the warhammer world has a geological layer of skulls. Skulls are a natural and renewable resource there.

That's amazingly funny. :D

I really like GW's skull madness, but it do get comical sometimes.

Darnok
02-07-2011, 22:19
It's like when a comedian hits the big time with an off-the-cuff funny remark, like "I didn't do it" or something, and all he does for the next ten years is say "I didn't do it! I didn't do it!" over and over again

Funny how most of these make tons of cash, isn't it? Not that I'm a fan, I'm really not, but it somehow seems to work...

RunepriestRidcully
02-07-2011, 22:33
The odd skull was okay, but the overloading of skulls into every terrain peice and onto almost every model is just a joke now, 40k and fantasy, throught the models and some of the new fluff is just being turned into parodies of itself, as Sun Tzu said, skulls are lazy and comical villain signs, it does feel more like a parody.
To those who say where are the bad halloween decorations in lotr? just look at the wringwraiths, nothing more scooby doo style sheet ghost :P mind you, the dose of skulls does almost make chaos seem like a scooby doo villain.

russellmoo
02-07-2011, 22:56
This thread got me to thinking-

Having a layer of skulls underneath the topsoil does explain why it is always possible on any battlefield to raise up an additional unit of undead-

I'm wondering if there is a problem with the GW ecosystem- maybe nothing decomposes properly there.

SunTzu
03-07-2011, 00:39
Funny how most of these make tons of cash, isn't it? Not that I'm a fan, I'm really not, but it somehow seems to work...

Crappy boybands and reality TV makes pots and pots of cash as well, doesn't mean they're artistically admirable.

You can always make money by playing to the lowest common denominator. But "can" doesn't mean you "should". GW have found a market that likes loads of skulls on things - that's great for them. But their games and their background/settings/fluff/general level of maturity have suffered in the process IMO. I guess that doesn't keep them awake at night, or anything, but I think it's sad to see it happen.

SunTzu
03-07-2011, 00:43
Or alternatively it's just a natural change in aesthetic styles that will eventualy fade away and change to something else. Like the famous red period of GW, back when i started, when it was almost unheard of to see a GW colour scheme that didn't include tremendous amounts of bright red paint.

The difference is, you can choose your own paint scheme.

I don't mind filing one or two skulls off a model, but 147? Forget it.

Zinch
03-07-2011, 01:11
So, I thought I would start a thread on here so we can point out the ridiculous sculpting madness on some of the Warhammer Fantasy Battle models we've noticed of late.



People didn't realise that the stupidest sculpt GW has ever made is the VC skeleton musician? A tuba? Seriously? Without lungs? ;)

Leth Shyish'phak
03-07-2011, 01:34
That at least has an explanation in the background; I'm still unsure as to exactly how my Chaos Warrior musicians manage to blow their trumpets while wearing all-enclosing, un-removable suits of armour. :shifty:

Kulgur
03-07-2011, 01:36
Make something artisticly admirable and it becomes timeless, it will always be loved.

Churn out trash that appeals to the lowest common denominator and you'll constantly have to churn out new and different trash as their fickle and short attention wanders elsewhere.

Balerion
03-07-2011, 03:17
People didn't realise that the stupidest sculpt GW has ever made is the VC skeleton musician? A tuba? Seriously? Without lungs? ;)
That's actually not as stupid as you think.

A skeleton that is held back by strictly physical limitations could not blow a tuba, but neither could his comrades hear any other sort of instrument. Drums, chimes, gongs, a triangle... it wouldn't matter, since they don't have ears (or brains).

However, most people would assume that skeletons CAN hear, which means that their hearing is a result of enchantment, which means that a skeleton could possess enchanted breath as easily as it could possess enchanted hearing.

Geep
03-07-2011, 03:48
People didn't realise that the stupidest sculpt GW has ever made is the VC skeleton musician? A tuba? Seriously? Without lungs?
someone needs to watch Army of Darkness (Evil Dead 3)

I find the amount of skulls on GW's things very hit and miss in appeal.

The only place where I really abhor the skulls is on the RoB board- mainly because they are just skulls and all skulls face upwards. After huge massacres it's been known for bone pits to be made in our own world (example (http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/RM1.CAMB.SKULLS.HTM)), and the Warhammer world is much more violent than ours. It's rare though that someone would neatly arrange all of those skulls (although not unheard of (http://blogs.qc.cuny.edu/blogs/genocide/cambodia/2008/12/the_influence_of_pol_pot.html)).

Similarly for skulls sculpted into tree roots, etc.- why just skulls? Sure they're probably the most iconic human bone, but a couple of femurs could really help. I have an old skeleton kit which I now use for this purpose.

For scuplted decoration (in buildings etc.) I have no issue with lots of skulls. Death is common in Warhammer, so why shouldn't symbols of death be common?

I also don't think the OP's feather is that bad- in the real world we've had some pretty strange military costumes at times, and we don't even have griffons to pluck feathers from.

The 'heroic scale' of weapons (and heads) is a necessary evil really- it allows you to look at your models from a distance (as your opponent will) and easily identify facing and equipment. Assemble a horde of true-scale models and this wouldn't be quite so easy (although of course quality of eyesight will vary between players).

Son of Morkai
03-07-2011, 04:24
Going a bit off topic here, but people have actually designed systems meant to maximize the amount of usable skeleton parts from enemies & kittens. You see, kill an enemy and you will get a limited amount of usable parts. Make sure that the enemy splatters over a large area and you will get more usable bits. Because of this people have designed pit traps with just the right depth to make the enemies splatter over a wide area, without it being hard for the dwarfs to get down there. Better yet, you can drop down kittens into the trap as well, thus getting a lot of usable bits from kittens.

Skulls can be made into totems, which in turn can be sold for profit. Thus skulls=Profit.

Such silliness as totems wastes valuable dwarven time! Every dwarf making a totem is a dwarf not making *lead goblets*!

moonwhisper
03-07-2011, 17:49
The realm of battle board revealed the true secret... the warhammer world has a geological layer of skulls. Skulls are a natural and renewable resource there.
Khorne champion: "Skulls for the skull throne! Let's start digging!" :D

I agree, sometimes it's really over the top, it gets almost comic. At least in 40K there are Tau... not a single skull in their whole range!!

And this one is from the Capela dos ossos near Evora, in Portugal.
http://www.portugal-ferien.net/Evora_Capela_dos_Ossos_2b.jpg

Tresidentevil
03-07-2011, 18:14
Skulls seem to be everywhere these days. Earlier this year all the clothes in Uk high street shops seemed to have skulls on the t shirts! The skulls all over GW stuff does make me laugh i tend to avoid using them if i can on models.

As far as big feathers go, surely in a world of big eagles and stuff big feathers would be pretty normal? Nothing wrong with being over the top, this is fantasy after all.

The bearded one
03-07-2011, 18:35
someone needs to watch Army of Darkness (Evil Dead 3)

Skeletal fluteplayer and bagpipeplayers at roughly at 25:30 :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A7qMz0hBjY&feature=related

Zoring
03-07-2011, 18:44
Good sir, you do the noble skull an injustice. This humble bone construct has a myriad of uses in and around the hovel. Skull cups, skull bowls, tiny skull spoons, skull bannister ends, skull vases, skull wash basins, novelty skull peepholes for those late night knocks on the door, fluff lined skull slippers to ease your feet at the end of a hard day and much, much more.

Skulls have near limitless applications but don't forget, even when you don't see them, our skulls are hard at work making your life easier. A thick layer of skulls will greatly improve your lawn drainage, ground up skull mortar holds many fine homes together these days and when times are hard, grandma always has a few recipes for baking with powdered skull and water.

So do not listen to those dissenting voices claiming we have a vested interest in keeping the eternal warmachine going. Remember, Skull Industries is your friend. Skull Industries, using our heads to make the world a better place.

Bravo Sir! You have ensured that my Skull is invested with Skull Industries!

Least the big feathers are easy to clip off :) Not like those awful skulls everywhere. Skulls, Monkeyfaces and Pyjamas is the reason I refuse to get any GW Empire Soldiers (+absurd price)

theshoveller
04-07-2011, 12:10
That is such a weak excuse though. You think lord of the rings would have been such a success in theatre if they made everything look like bad halloween props?
You're absolutely right, but Warhammer is not LotR.

The Warhammer world is a place where heavy metal album covers fight it out - and has been for as long as I can remember (c.1990, for anyone keeping score).

wizbix
04-07-2011, 12:23
If you dont like the wrhammer world and its iconograpghy then you are entitled to look else where. But why stay and whine about it? I just dont get it.

SunTzu
04-07-2011, 12:42
Maybe because we've already spent literally thousands of pounds and untold numbers of hours building up our model collections and making links with a gaming group, only to find it's now turning into a lowest-common-denominator skullfest and this hobby that we genuinely care about and have invested ourselves into is now pushing us away?

Maybe you could just give up and walk away from something you've invested into and never look back, but some of us actually care about our hobby, and what it once was.

And, sure, we could stick with the models we've already got, but buying and painting new models is part of the fun of the hobby... except now we have to spend an hour laboriously taking the skulls off every model we buy, if it's even possible.

So, yeah. That's why we (as you so rationally, fairly, and objectively put it) "whine". Why are you whining about us whining? I don't get it.

Tomxj
04-07-2011, 12:48
I thought this was the POINT of the Warhammer look?
Design boys and girls.
Lets explore Form and Function briefly in the Warhammer world.

The Warhammer world is an bombasticly camp fantasy setting, Its a pantomime landscape that plays on a particular aesthetic - Everything being larger than life and bigger is better. The equivilant of shouting "he's behind you!" or "THIS.IS.SPARTA!" in regards to the the warhammer design documents would be putting skulls shaped shoulder pads on you skulls. Combined it creates a cohesive look, The rule of cool wins here over truly proportioned minatures. If this wasn't the case why arn't all of us playing historical? - This is Form.

Warhammer is a GAME, played with tiny little toy soldiers that are viewed as playing pieces up to 6ft away. To True scale, seeing which model has what weapon is hard at two paces. So the 28mm miniature industry has come up with "Heroic scale". This scale is characterised by large weapons, heads and hands. It creates a Caricature of the piece being played, a silhouette to recognise against so many others and easliy identifiable equipment. This tells us at a glace who this is, what they're carrying and more importantly allows us to quickly implement the piece within the flowing game without second guessing ourselves. - This is function.

Both Form and Function should work in tandem within design and the warhammer miniatures are brilliant examples how the Function can compliment Form and vice verse. i.e. Bigger more bombastic miniatures makes for easliy identifiable game pieces, and easliy identifiable game pieces make for bigger more bombastic miniatures.

Regards... with skulls on. :)

Tom j

-Loki-
04-07-2011, 12:57
Yeah, skulls on everything is a totally new thing that GW have only recently started doing.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1440485_99110207002_ColNagashMain_873x627.jpg

SunTzu
04-07-2011, 13:03
(1) That's widely agreed to be one of the worst models GW have ever made, so using it in support of any argument is kind of a strange thing to do.

(2) Symbols of death all over the lord of death is actually quite understandable and I don't think anyone would really complain about that? Symbols of death all over someone's house, attached to people's belts, hidden in the roots of trees, buried just under the topsoil, in temples and generally used as symbols for people who wish to preserve civilisation and life in general...? That's where it gets silly.

Spider-pope
04-07-2011, 13:12
(1) That's widely agreed to be one of the worst models GW have ever made, so using it in support of any argument is kind of a strange thing to do.



Thats not true. Nagash is the perfect thing to support the argument that Gary Morley should not be allowed near green stuff.

azhagmorglum
04-07-2011, 13:17
Does it really matter?

azhagmorglum
04-07-2011, 13:20
Thats not true. Nagash is the perfect thing to support the argument that Gary Morley should not be allowed near green stuff.

Don't forget that this sculpt is like more than 20 years old, a time when a lot of sculpts were goofy; like it or not, but give the man some rest, he's not the only one who sculpted bad things

I actually quite like this sculpt, and I'm more and more inclined to like old sculpts, because I tend to think that even if todays sculpt are superb, they look more like toys than miniatures (in the hobby sense I mean)
And don't forget that the paintjob has a lot to do with a mini looking good or bad, see the lammassu new paint job (the resin one : see here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=113089&d=1308932073)). I think it gives it a fresh and very actual look.

Spider-pope
04-07-2011, 13:26
Don't forget that this sculpt is like more than 20 years old, a time when a lot of sculpts were goofy; like it or not, but give the man some rest, he's not the only one who sculpted bad things

I was around 20 odd years ago, and even then this sculpt stood out as particularly bad and was considered a joke.

eldargal
04-07-2011, 13:26
Except, that is wrong. He sculpted that head as a joke because GW rejected his original head, he couldn't believe it when they accepted it.


Thats not true. Nagash is the perfect thing to support the argument that Gary Morley should not be allowed near green stuff.



the story on the Nagash, model... is this;

It was my first big Multi-part mini I had ever attempted. and it certainly
went through many versions in sculpting. (In those days concept drawing
were very sketchy and I had very little input.) But only one version ever made it to the
moulds. However, there are two head versions the original head was based
on the design that i was given, a more Zombie looking type. And that was the one
that my design manager and I (at the time) prefered. But at that time all miniatures
had to be approved not only by the design studio, but also by the sales management.

This is where it came un-stuck! They did'nt like it, and prefered to have a Skull,...?
Much to my dislike. Now because of release dates and schedules I had one day to put it 'right'. So preffering the original I went ahead and made the alternative. Now, I never thought for one moment thought that they would approve the (laughing clown) skull and would revert back to the original.
The Joke back-fired. And to my horror it was approved and they released it!

Throughout my time at GW I know i made some sculpts that I was not that happy with.
But, Nagash has been the one model that Haunted me all through my time there.
(AND IT STILL DOES!)
And vowed that I would re-make before I left. However, that was never to be.

I am working on my own version but will prolly not see the light of day until next year. Stands approx 70mm tall and will be cast in around 20 parts.

Blood Bowl was my favorite game at GW. Shame they never wanted to push it further. I would have love to have seen a Necromunder version.

Lyinar
04-07-2011, 14:08
Yeah, skulls on everything is a totally new thing that GW have only recently started doing.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1440485_99110207002_ColNagashMain_873x627.jpg

By the Gods, bringing up the Nagash miniature here is like invoking Godwin's Law on other forums...

RanaldLoec
04-07-2011, 14:28
By the Gods, bringing up the Nagash miniature here is like invoking Godwin's Law on other forums...

I had to Google Godwin's Law, it brought a smile to my face.

The bearded one
04-07-2011, 14:36
I had to Google Godwin's Law, it brought a smile to my face.

you.. you didn't know about Godwin´s Law? :eek:

Heretic!

StormCrow
04-07-2011, 14:49
I learnt an interesting Gary Morley story and a hilarious 'law' today, thanks warseer!

On the subject of strange design choices in warhammer why are there such a disproportionate amount of skulls on terrain pieces, where do the rest of the bones go?

theshoveller
04-07-2011, 16:53
Maybe because we've already spent literally thousands of pounds and untold numbers of hours building up our model collections and making links with a gaming group, only to find it's now turning into a lowest-common-denominator skullfest and this hobby that we genuinely care about and have invested ourselves into is now pushing us away?

Turning?

The first game I bought was Man O'War. Almost every other fleet had a ship with a skull on the prow, or a big skull design on the sail. Later, I would go on to buy 40k, Second Edition... every marine combat squad featured a chap with a skull moulded on the forehead of his helmet. The box art featured a space marine covered in skulls, fighting an ork covered in skulls, with skulls at their feet. Looking back to WFB Third Edition, we have good ol' "Harry the Hammer" with not one, but three skulls on his armour and shield.

I put it to you that the only reason that GW miniatures were less 'skully' in previous years was the limitation of 28mm sculpting before Computer Aided Design.

Lord Solar Plexus
04-07-2011, 16:58
Later, I would go on to buy 40k, Second Edition... every marine combat squad featured a chap with a skull moulded on the forehead of his helmet.

And some on their kneecaps or weapons.

I often wonder why they never brought out that Skull class CA for BFG...in the form of a huge skull, stationed in the Skulla sector, propelled by skulls. Awesome concept but under-armed...only with a Catapult of...you get the gist.

wizbix
04-07-2011, 17:44
Maybe because we've already spent literally thousands of pounds and untold numbers of hours building up our model collections and making links with a gaming group, only to find it's now turning into a lowest-common-denominator skullfest and this hobby that we genuinely care about and have invested ourselves into is now pushing us away?

Maybe you could just give up and walk away from something you've invested into and never look back, but some of us actually care about our hobby, and what it once was.

And, sure, we could stick with the models we've already got, but buying and painting new models is part of the fun of the hobby... except now we have to spend an hour laboriously taking the skulls off every model we buy, if it's even possible.

So, yeah. That's why we (as you so rationally, fairly, and objectively put it) "whine". Why are you whining about us whining? I don't get it.

Mine wasnt a whine, it was just a statement that I didnt get it.

chamelion 6
04-07-2011, 18:18
Death heads, dancing skeletons, and hour glasses were common during the renaissance. As several have pointed out in this thread, the aesthetic is not far off from reality. Given that and the fact that it's easier to take them off than put them on, I suppose I prefer things the way they are.

The whole grimdark thing has always been an element of GW...

Cragum
05-07-2011, 00:12
I always like the fact that tomb kings skeletons bones are actually now thicker than normal mans arms with all the flesh and bits attached! Oddly GW didnt think a resculpt to something similar like the vampire counts would of been smart.

Aluinn
05-07-2011, 03:33
The idea that GW sculpts could ever be over-the-top or ridiculous is preposterous. GW have, since their inception, been committed to the highest standards of realism and historical accuracy in all that they do, from their miniatures to their background to their rules. Obviously, this means their miniatures often look "dull" to the unwashed troglodyte masses, and that they have never gained wide appeal, but I must praise them from adhering to their principles even in this age of flagrant sensationalism.

Because I, like most gamers, am smarter than everyone else, and so I understand the complex symbolism and allegory worked into their aesthetics. If, at any time, GW ever decided to lower the bar by including too many skulls--say, 200 on a single miniature--I would certainly lose faith in them and go play historical wargames, even though these often feature outlandish cartoon imagery.

SgtTaters
05-07-2011, 06:05
Exaggeration is normal when it comes to sculpting. I like the big heads and huge weapons of GW sculpts, I enjoy the heroic scale. Realism is not instantly better by default.

Warhammer is a wargame with 28mm miniatures. You have a bird's eye view of them, you want them to be instantly recognizable, to have strong silhouettes.
If your champion has the same gear as everyone else in his squad, give him something that changes his silhouette like a feather, make it distinct.
If you need to differentiate the plasmagun from a squad of boltguns, make all the weapons big and recognizable, give them different textures (boltgun is boxy, while plasmagun is more rounded and ribbed for your pleasure)

GW artwork often shows things at 'real scale' anyways. Space marines with tiny heads and Orcs with hulking shoulders. I like them both, I don't think the miniatures being heroic makes them any less good.

GW has pretty much the best fantasy designers in the western world right now (when other companies handle their IP, the product always looks worse). Designing miniatures means they must focus on what the most distinct details will be. There is no useless detail as it will not show up on a 28mm model, or come out cluttered. Some of their models aren't that great, but the best ones are really something else. This transfers to their 'real scale' artwork where you have very striking designs.

We can say WH/40k is over-the-top compared to historics, yes, but compare them to other contemporary fantasy designs and you begin to appreciate their basis in realism. A GW high elf's armor is stylized, but it still has foundations of being armor. Same with orcs, chaos warriors, Dwarves and all that. Now look at D&D (armor of assymetrical slabs) and WoW (cloth, leather, metal all indistinguishable colorful slabs).



Most importantly they're highly distinct designs, very memorable. They have history. A space marine is a refinement of a design from 1986. A high elf is a refinement of a design from the late 70's. This kind of tradition devoted to visual design as the identity of your product is hard to find anywhere else. God damn, they're the first people to make orcs green gorillas. Tolkein's literature may be the basis of modern fantasy, but it's GW miniatures that has given them the visuals.

Dutch_Digger
05-07-2011, 09:29
Most importantly they're highly distinct designs, very memorable. They have history. A space marine is a refinement of a design from 1986. A high elf is a refinement of a design from the late 70's. This kind of tradition devoted to visual design as the identity of your product is hard to find anywhere else. God damn, they're the first people to make orcs green gorillas. Tolkein's literature may be the basis of modern fantasy, but it's GW miniatures that has given them the visuals.

+1

Exaggerated models is what GW is built on, just look back a good 20 years and the models just had rediculous proportions.

When other companies (think Grenadier) tried to make their models look realistic, these guys at GW went for rediculous stuff like Tyrion with a helmet with feathers that would snap off your head by its sheer size and weight.

Well 90% of the realistic modelers of the 80ies/90ies went down in flames and Warhammer is still here! Still the same company with over the top models.

it's not new, theyre just doing what theyve allways done. but the models just keep on looking better! the old tyrion almost made me cry its so ugly, but the new plastics in that starterset are so pretty i'd almost start playing high elves again!

Myrmidon616
05-07-2011, 09:56
On the subject of over-scaled weapons, have you seen the VC Grave Guard? I'm always worried that they're swords are going to break because they're so thin and flimsy.

Zoring
05-07-2011, 18:58
Ah but what about the more realistically proportioned and 'equipmented' Forge-World Imperial Guard who prove incredibly popular? They are skull-free and drab and they still sell like supercrack, i bet if they were in cheap plastic they would out-sell the other IG lines.

Bloodknight
05-07-2011, 19:26
Ah but what about the more realistically proportioned and 'equipmented' Forge-World Imperial Guard who prove incredibly popular?

That has probably zero to do with the scale and proportions and skull-free-ness and much more to do with them looking like Space Nazis. And yes, I know that they're influenced by German and French WW1 troops. Still, most people who look at them who're not history buffs see first and foremost Space Nazis and a lot of people think Space Nazis are cool (or Nazi visuals in general). Before we had the DKoK minis, Steel Legion was rabidly popular. Guess what those look like. Space Nazis. They even have similar heraldry on their helmets in the official artworks.

For some reason, the Germany players always outnumber the Allies players in wargames; part of that is probably the SS-Supersoldiers-from-hell thing that seems to be part of -mostly- the anglosaxon culture (while they were actually very far away from that, but it makes you look better if you defeat supersoldiers from hell than mostly random schmucks from anywhere in the reich and occupied territories) and part of that is that they just look better and more varied than the allied troops because there are more different uniforms and more varied and better looking vehicles (Panzer IV vs Sherman, for example).

Am I right? And in case you say no...why is your avatar a Broomhandle Mauser? ;).

The bearded one
05-07-2011, 19:43
That has probably zero to do with the scale and proportions and skull-free-ness and much more to do with them looking like Space Nazis. And yes, I know that they're influenced by German and French WW1 troops. Still, most people who look at them who're not history buffs see first and foremost Space Nazis and a lot of people think Space Nazis are cool (or Nazi visuals in general). Before we had the DKoK minis, Steel Legion was rabidly popular. Guess what those look like. Space Nazis. They even have similar heraldry on their helmets in the official artworks.

For some reason, the Germany players always outnumber the Allies players in wargames; part of that is probably the SS-Supersoldiers-from-hell thing that seems to be part of -mostly- the anglosaxon culture (while they were actually very far away from that, but it makes you look better if you defeat supersoldiers from hell than mostly random schmucks from anywhere in the reich and occupied territories) and part of that is that they just look better and more varied than the allied troops because there are more different uniforms and more varied and better looking vehicles (Panzer IV vs Sherman, for example).

Am I right? And in case you say no...why is your avatar a Broomhandle Mauser? ;).

Like my father says: "the bad guys always look cooler"

Dryaktylus
05-07-2011, 19:57
That has probably zero to do with the scale and proportions and skull-free-ness and much more to do with them looking like Space Nazis. And yes, I know that they're influenced by German and French WW1 troops. Still, most people who look at them who're not history buffs see first and foremost Space Nazis and a lot of people think Space Nazis are cool (or Nazi visuals in general). Before we had the DKoK minis, Steel Legion was rabidly popular. Guess what those look like. Space Nazis. They even have similar heraldry on their helmets in the official artworks.

For some reason, the Germany players always outnumber the Allies players in wargames; part of that is probably the SS-Supersoldiers-from-hell thing that seems to be part of -mostly- the anglosaxon culture (while they were actually very far away from that, but it makes you look better if you defeat supersoldiers from hell than mostly random schmucks from anywhere in the reich and occupied territories) and part of that is that they just look better and more varied than the allied troops.

I disagree. Longcoats, gas masks and steel helmets just have some kind of style. They look sinister and without any personality. Their background is the war of attrition from WW1 and I can't see anything like "super soldiers" on them (well, except the price). Of course, there're always some "enthusiasts".

But I suppose Zoring didn't meant DKoK *looking at my grenadiers with SKULL GAS MASKS*.

snottlebocket
05-07-2011, 20:00
Turning?

The first game I bought was Man O'War. Almost every other fleet had a ship with a skull on the prow, or a big skull design on the sail. Later, I would go on to buy 40k, Second Edition... every marine combat squad featured a chap with a skull moulded on the forehead of his helmet. The box art featured a space marine covered in skulls, fighting an ork covered in skulls, with skulls at their feet. Looking back to WFB Third Edition, we have good ol' "Harry the Hammer" with not one, but three skulls on his armour and shield.

I put it to you that the only reason that GW miniatures were less 'skully' in previous years was the limitation of 28mm sculpting before Computer Aided Design.

Only one skull? Amateurs.

Bloodknight
05-07-2011, 20:20
But I suppose Zoring didn't meant DKoK

Well, Elysians aren't nearly as popular, and neither are Tallarns, so I guess that he, indeed, meant DKoK.



Their background is the war of attrition from WW1 and I can't see anything like "super soldiers" on them (well, except the price).

You know that. ;). I bet my money on "enthusiasts". The nazi-esque visuals (and again, I know what the actual influences on the DKOK are) are just very popular in pop culture for depictions of bad guys. Look at Kroenen from Hellboy, for example, or Helghast troops and whatever.

Tzar Boris
05-07-2011, 21:59
I'm not overly offended by the "skulls on everything" thing - I'm also not offended by ridiculous oversizeness (I used Belakors sword for my Chaos Lord!) - but in general their is a pervasive cartoony feel coming over the whole of Warhammerland (and 40k land) - like a grim parody of warhammer. Almost disneyfied. I can recount the tales of woe about Jon "Mad" Blanche, and Adrian "He's a nutjob" Smith, but my gods, where have they gone?

It seems every image coming out of GW these days has more blue on it than is reasonable (Blanche was staunch "I hate using blue"ist) and severely lacking in the originality of Smiths scarier visions of hell.

Yes, skulls CAN be overdone. But let's not blame the poor skulls, they have their place. It's kinda like the kids they have making stuff now just don't "get it" - like if Michael Bay had directed LOTR...

snottlebocket
05-07-2011, 22:02
I'm not overly offended by the "skulls on everything" thing - I'm also not offended by ridiculous oversizeness (I used Belakors sword for my Chaos Lord!) - but in general their is a pervasive cartoony feel coming over the whole of Warhammerland (and 40k land) - like a grim parody of warhammer. Almost disneyfied. I can recount the tales of woe about Jon "Mad" Blanche, and Adrian "He's a nutjob" Smith, but my gods, where have they gone?

It seems every image coming out of GW these days has more blue on it than is reasonable (Blanche was staunch "I hate using blue"ist) and severely lacking in the originality of Smiths scarier visions of hell.

Yes, skulls CAN be overdone. But let's not blame the poor skulls, they have their place. It's kinda like the kids they have making stuff now just don't "get it" - like if Michael Bay had directed LOTR...

Heh, some of the most cartoony models in warhammer history come from the high days of their careers.

The bearded one
05-07-2011, 22:29
I'm not overly offended by the "skulls on everything" thing - I'm also not offended by ridiculous oversizeness (I used Belakors sword for my Chaos Lord!) - but in general their is a pervasive cartoony feel coming over the whole of Warhammerland (and 40k land) - like a grim parody of warhammer. Almost disneyfied. I can recount the tales of woe about Jon "Mad" Blanche, and Adrian "He's a nutjob" Smith, but my gods, where have they gone?

It seems every image coming out of GW these days has more blue on it than is reasonable (Blanche was staunch "I hate using blue"ist) and severely lacking in the originality of Smiths scarier visions of hell.

Yes, skulls CAN be overdone. But let's not blame the poor skulls, they have their place. It's kinda like the kids they have making stuff now just don't "get it" - like if Michael Bay had directed LOTR...

That's odd, because when looking at older mini's I always think those look cartoony. Old dwarf mini's looked like halflings, not a noble, honorable race.


What do you mean with the overdose of blue? Haven't noticed it yet. ( The O&G and TK books had an overdose of green and yellow respectively, but didn't notice a lot of blue.

snottlebocket
05-07-2011, 22:33
That's odd, because when looking at older mini's I always think those look cartoony. Old dwarf mini's looked like halflings, not a noble, honorable race.


Wearing uniform heavy armor is more honorable than looking like the citizen army they're supposed to be?

The bearded one
05-07-2011, 22:50
Wearing uniform heavy armor is more honorable than looking like the citizen army they're supposed to be?

It is true that the majority is militia, but the production capability of the dwarven realm is absolutely humongous and dwarfs are craftsmen of the highest sort. It is no more than logical that dwarfs are heavily armoured. Even poor clans only send out warriors properly harnassed for war and above all, dwarfs are faboulisly wealthy. No dwarf is happy unless his hoard is high enough to sit on. They can easily procure good armour. There is nothing weird with the dwarfs having militia more heavily armoured than the professional troops of races like the empire. Their numbers are so few anyway that producing enough heavy armour isn't that hard and a dying race shouldn't send out warriors to fight without the best protection available.



Yes, even the slightest complaint about dwarfs causes me to rant.



Besides, does making heavy armour make you less honorable? I guess medieval knights were wrong all along :p

snottlebocket
05-07-2011, 23:12
It is true that the majority is militia, but the production capability of the dwarven realm is absolutely humongous and dwarfs are craftsmen of the highest sort. It is no more than logical that dwarfs are heavily armoured. Even poor clans only send out warriors properly harnassed for war and above all, dwarfs are faboulisly wealthy. No dwarf is happy unless his hoard is high enough to sit on. They can easily procure good armour. There is nothing weird with the dwarfs having militia more heavily armoured than the professional troops of races like the empire. Their numbers are so few anyway that producing enough heavy armour isn't that hard and a dying race shouldn't send out warriors to fight without the best protection available.



Yes, even the slightest complaint about dwarfs causes me to rant.



Besides, does making heavy armour make you less honorable? I guess medieval knights were wrong all along :p

The majority of old dwarf models were heavily armored. And each one unique rather than uniformed. The dwarf models you're talking about were the old imperial dwarfs. Immigrant dwarfs living in small communities in the empire. Quite different from the hold dwarfs. Most other dwarf models wore sets of personalized armor.

Tzar Boris
05-07-2011, 23:29
Starting from Mighty Empires/The Empire 7th edition. Forget who the artist was, but blue and terrible faces was his schtick (Dwarf on Skull pass lower left corner = Gandalf).

I think I meant "glossy" cartoon. Something pixar or Disney would put out, or the Fantasy equivalent of a Justin Bieber record - overproduced, or at least trying to be. Look through the artwork and layout of the 80s and 90s releases. It felt like they were hobbyists getting ideas down onto paper and into your hands. It now feels like the hobbyists put their ideas down, which is then handed to eighteen layers of middle management to put their own editorial spin on it, and then you get a regurgitated "safe" cartoon fantasy.

If Rogue Trader was Judge Dredd, 5th Edition is X-men. (comics)

If Fantasy were films, 1st would be Jabberwocky, 7th would be Eragon...

When by rights it should be Solomon Kane or something.

It's not that there's no precedent to this. Look at stuff like the Terminator. But on the flipside you have computer games that have progressively been becoming more adult. Fallout, GoW, Oblivion etc all have some degree of humour/cartoonish qualities whilst not betraying a sense of Grim Darkness. GW seem to be taking what Bungie misinterpreted in the Warcraft series as their own canon. (Have a look at the original failed Warhammer online vs Age of Reckoning)

Again, it's almost as if the designers have been learning GW IP from the licensed PC games rather than the wealth of historical background they actually have.

Aeon Flux, Dredd, ABC Warriors, Tank Girl - All comics/cartoons with edge, like the old models (when was the last female nipple released?), compared with the glossy CITV friendly style they seem to have adopted.

Basically it feels a tad forced and sterile. Like it's being ran by a bunch of accountants...

...oh.

The bearded one
06-07-2011, 01:19
The majority of old dwarf models were heavily armored. And each one unique rather than uniformed. The dwarf models you're talking about were the old imperial dwarfs. Immigrant dwarfs living in small communities in the empire. Quite different from the hold dwarfs. Most other dwarf models wore sets of personalized armor.

I guess I can agree they are very uniform. The metal longbeards have nice personalised armour though.

But no, I was talking about all the old dwarf models, not just the imperial dwarfs. And I was not really talking about their armour, but about their general look. They looked kinda fat and comical, instead of tough and muscular. A quik skip to bugmans gave me some examples:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/CalfirBlackthorn/ClanMen_05.png

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/CalfirBlackthorn/LongBeards_00.png

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/CalfirBlackthorn/ClanMen_07.png


Many people are a fan of these oldies, but I really ain't. I like the style of the current plastics and metalics infinitely more.

TheMav80
06-07-2011, 03:20
I don't even like the current Dwarves. They look horribly cartoony. Those stupid pot bellies aren't helping at all.

grumbaki
06-07-2011, 03:33
I don't even like the current Dwarves. They look horribly cartoony. Those stupid pot bellies aren't helping at all.

I like the pot-bellies. To me, nothing says "real warrior" like a pot belly. When I see a dwarf like Gotrek, I roll my eyes. In the good ole' days, a hero didn't have to look like an action hero. Just take a look at Guan Yu.

http://www.chinawikipedia.com/2%20Main%20image%20folder/history/GUANYU.jpg

http://www.wemecreative.com/shop/images/guan2.png

The guy had a bit of a stomach. But he was still badass. That's how I see the dwarfs, and I'm glad that GW keeps them like that.

eldargal
06-07-2011, 06:11
I really can't agree with this, while I agree some of the art is quite average, its always been thus. Some of the stuff from the 80s/90s is positively camp, like a thirteen year old art students vision of High Fantasy. In comparison some of the more recentt art (7th onwards) has been quite gritty, particularly some of the B/W stuff in the Dark Elf book. I don't see anything particularly cartoony/glossy about the Empire book either.


Starting from Mighty Empires/The Empire 7th edition. Forget who the artist was, but blue and terrible faces was his schtick (Dwarf on Skull pass lower left corner = Gandalf).

I think I meant "glossy" cartoon. Something pixar or Disney would put out, or the Fantasy equivalent of a Justin Bieber record - overproduced, or at least trying to be. Look through the artwork and layout of the 80s and 90s releases. It felt like they were hobbyists getting ideas down onto paper and into your hands. It now feels like the hobbyists put their ideas down, which is then handed to eighteen layers of middle management to put their own editorial spin on it, and then you get a regurgitated "safe" cartoon fantasy.

If Rogue Trader was Judge Dredd, 5th Edition is X-men. (comics)

If Fantasy were films, 1st would be Jabberwocky, 7th would be Eragon...

When by rights it should be Solomon Kane or something.

It's not that there's no precedent to this. Look at stuff like the Terminator. But on the flipside you have computer games that have progressively been becoming more adult. Fallout, GoW, Oblivion etc all have some degree of humour/cartoonish qualities whilst not betraying a sense of Grim Darkness. GW seem to be taking what Bungie misinterpreted in the Warcraft series as their own canon. (Have a look at the original failed Warhammer online vs Age of Reckoning)

Again, it's almost as if the designers have been learning GW IP from the licensed PC games rather than the wealth of historical background they actually have.

Aeon Flux, Dredd, ABC Warriors, Tank Girl - All comics/cartoons with edge, like the old models (when was the last female nipple released?), compared with the glossy CITV friendly style they seem to have adopted.

Basically it feels a tad forced and sterile. Like it's being ran by a bunch of accountants...

...oh.

SgtTaters
06-07-2011, 07:14
Ah but what about the more realistically proportioned and 'equipmented' Forge-World Imperial Guard who prove incredibly popular? They are skull-free and drab and they still sell like supercrack, i bet if they were in cheap plastic they would out-sell the other IG lines.

Because plastic Cadians suck. They have big melon heads and boring armor. The 2e metal cadians were better.

Death Korps are AWESOME
Drop Troops are FANTASTIC
They are not drab. Plastic Cadians are drab.

both of them draw more from RT/2e imagery than the plastic Cadians. The Drop Troopers have the photovisors and 'quilted' armor of RT era Imperial Guard (*EDIT: actually, did RT have quilted armor? I thought it did but haven't found any images, it does look retro though), it's a very specific kind of retro futuristic from the 80's.

Kriegers have WW1 era long coats, helmets, and gas masks to some degree. They actually look like they come from the same era as the Leman Russ and Chimera.

as for Skull Free? The Krieger mask gives the impression of a gaunt skull face. THeir leadership have this further emphasized. Some of the models go as far as adding ribs to their uniforms.

Forgeworld's Imperial Guard are great because they draw from 40k imagery
Plastic Cadians are butt because they aimed for generic sci fi/somewhat modern and they have fat heads which emphasize nothing interesting.

Zoring
06-07-2011, 07:23
Am I right? And in case you say no...why is your avatar a Broomhandle Mauser? ;).

Well actually, yes you have now persuaded me, it is the Germanophile thing more than the realistic proportions that mean the DKoK are popular, I suppose the Elysians aren't so much? I thought they did fairly well? Although i believe they aren't producing any new figs for them. (The range is fairly comprehensive though)

I do have a Steel Legion guard army, and of course the Fallschirmjäger aesthetic is what drew me (German Uniform + Gasmask = Profit!), I also have a plastic cadian army with all the heads replaced but there just not as cool. As for the Mauser C96 well my family background is German (Schleswig-Holstein) and that's my excuse + Han Solo + I own one and it is my favourite gun :P

I guess the DkoK do have some skull action going on, but at least they don't have full skulls hanging off their trousers.

BramGaunt
06-07-2011, 07:26
That is such a weak excuse though. You think lord of the rings would have been such a success in theatre if they made everything look like bad halloween props?

Yes, but Lord of the Rings is 60 years old, and you forget that Peter Jackson practically had a gun pointed at him from a million wide fanbase. They even cocked the gun when they saw Arwen with a sword... LotR also tries to be a realistic kind of fantasy, Warhammer never tried that. In LotR, magic is great, but extremely rare. In Warhammer it always was a 'do-what-you-want-and-get-away-with-it' ticket. Everyone and their moms are packing magical items and wizards. There hardly is not a single Warhammer game with not at least a bit of magic involved, but look at the whole LotR, you can count the use of magic with your two hands.

I don't like the fact that they put skulls everywhere. It is to much. I can imagine that there are some places where there ar elots of skelletons to be found, and with Morr being one of the Imperiums stronger gods I can see that they put some of them on their walls, but to much is to much.

I sure hope this (http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/3943/conan2011poster.jpg) won't be any source of inspiration...

Bloodknight
06-07-2011, 09:56
(*EDIT: actually, did RT have quilted armor?

Squats did. I also just took a look at the original crew from the IG Rapier I painted lately and they have quilted armor as well.


I suppose the Elysians aren't so much? I thought they did fairly well?

Purely anecdotally, I know 1 guy with Elysians and 4 guys with DKoK. If you check project logs on forums I'd guess that the DK outnumbers the Elysians by even more ^^.

Personally, if I were going to collect another FW army apart from my World Eaters or collect another IG army apart from my Mordian horde, I'd go for FW Tallarns - shame they don't have better troops models, the 1995 metals, although still pretty good models, don't look too good next to the FW gun teams, riders and stuff :).

eldargal
06-07-2011, 11:09
Maybe the September mystery release is a tie in Conan game from GW?:shifty:



I sure hope this (http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/3943/conan2011poster.jpg) won't be any source of inspiration...

Frankly
06-07-2011, 11:45
Where some see extremely puffy sleeves I see a possibility for a four plus puffy sleeve save.

(sounded funnier when I was thinking it)

ha ha ha ... funny enough to make me lol

loveless
06-07-2011, 16:30
Aeon Flux, Dredd, ABC Warriors, Tank Girl - All comics/cartoons with edge, like the old models (when was the last female nipple released?), compared with the glossy CITV friendly style they seem to have adopted.

Just the mention of Aeon Flux evokes images of its god-awful art-style and the even worse live-action movie it inspired (seriously, what was that?).

Also, why did you choose "female nipple" as your qualifier for models with "edge"? Why do so many of the "I-Miss-the-Old-Crap" crowd act like a female miniature is only edgy if she's bare-breasted? I never understood this - bare-chested female minis always struck me as more awkward than effective (exception: last edition metal Daemonettes were excellent, though a bit imperfect in matching the artwork).

One of the best female models out of GW is the latest Lelith. Agile and deadly without in-your-face sexuality or absurd proportions. The day GW moves to double-G cupped females with wasp-thin waists and no clothing save for a few shreds of fabric and some bracelets is the day I'm done - it just ends up being ridiculous in execution.

Even the Witch Elves, the poster child for scantily clad female warriors in GW property, look better "nipple free". The concept art for the ill-fated Warhammer Age of Reckoning continues to be one of the best collections of Witch Elves (and Sorceresses, come to think of it).

I don't know - it just bothers me when "nude" = "edgy" in wishlists. Frankly, an outfit that hints at nudity without actually delivering it (something like Morrigan's top in Dragon Age Origins) is edgier than "lulz bewbz" (like the AoW Sorceress) in my book.

Tzar Boris
06-07-2011, 21:00
Just the mention of Aeon Flux evokes images of its god-awful art-style and the even worse live-action movie it inspired (seriously, what was that?).

Also, why did you choose "female nipple" as your qualifier for models with "edge"? Why do so many of the "I-Miss-the-Old-Crap" crowd act like a female miniature is only edgy if she's bare-breasted? I never understood this - bare-chested female minis always struck me as more awkward than effective (exception: last edition metal Daemonettes were excellent, though a bit imperfect in matching the artwork).


Ah, the nipple qualifier is just a sign of gradual self censorship. I don't know how but the plastic Daemonettes just don't "feel" sexy in any way. I'm not saying it's the addition of clothing, in fact it's moreso the heads have become hideous. There's no way a GW sculptor could sculpt BOTH an appealing female face AND make it look alien and menacing I know, but they coulda tried.

But I digress, my point is the "Homebrew" feel to my examples very much encapsulates the tone of early GW art and design choices. Very 80s and dare I say "british" - like the Cure, Iron Maiden and Carter USM! Now, I'm not saying that it should remain as such, but it's not been a natural evolution.

It seems to have been a fairly consistent improvement in quality whilst remaining true to the "look and feel" up until the early 2000s when a definite americanism seemed to take hold. It's very hard to point at and say "there, look there, that's been DnD'd!" but there's a definite Mattel/Hasbro feel to the whole thing which makes it feel less "hobby" and more "some stuff I bought".

Y'know, you wanna be a participant, not just a consumer.

Balerion
06-07-2011, 21:40
Starting from Mighty Empires/The Empire 7th edition. Forget who the artist was, but blue and terrible faces was his schtick (Dwarf on Skull pass lower left corner = Gandalf).

I think I meant "glossy" cartoon. Something pixar or Disney would put out, or the Fantasy equivalent of a Justin Bieber record - overproduced, or at least trying to be. Look through the artwork and layout of the 80s and 90s releases. It felt like they were hobbyists getting ideas down onto paper and into your hands. It now feels like the hobbyists put their ideas down, which is then handed to eighteen layers of middle management to put their own editorial spin on it, and then you get a regurgitated "safe" cartoon fantasy.

If Rogue Trader was Judge Dredd, 5th Edition is X-men. (comics)

If Fantasy were films, 1st would be Jabberwocky, 7th would be Eragon...

When by rights it should be Solomon Kane or something.

It's not that there's no precedent to this. Look at stuff like the Terminator. But on the flipside you have computer games that have progressively been becoming more adult. Fallout, GoW, Oblivion etc all have some degree of humour/cartoonish qualities whilst not betraying a sense of Grim Darkness. GW seem to be taking what Bungie misinterpreted in the Warcraft series as their own canon. (Have a look at the original failed Warhammer online vs Age of Reckoning)

Again, it's almost as if the designers have been learning GW IP from the licensed PC games rather than the wealth of historical background they actually have.

Aeon Flux, Dredd, ABC Warriors, Tank Girl - All comics/cartoons with edge, like the old models (when was the last female nipple released?), compared with the glossy CITV friendly style they seem to have adopted.

Basically it feels a tad forced and sterile. Like it's being ran by a bunch of accountants...

...oh.
Great post