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Markedofchaos
08-07-2011, 19:48
Second thread in one day, this one also stems from an discussion with my friends.

What would you like/want to see in the new codex?
Any feed back would be great, ideas about marks, units, stats, points.

Some thing my friends suggested
Chaos lord strength 5 base for 110 points
Levels of marks: so you could get the 1 level of every mark, or a higher level of 1 mark ex. Chaos marines with level 1 marks of Khorne, Nurgle, tzeentch, Slaanesh, Or the same squad with level 2 of Khorne.

Will post more later.
The floor is yours

Baaltor
08-07-2011, 20:01
Second thread in one day, this one also stems from an discussion with my friends.

What would you like/want to see in the new codex?
Any feed back would be great, ideas about marks, units, stats, points.

Some thing my friends suggested
Chaos lord strength 5 base for 110 points
Levels of marks: so you could get the 1 level of every mark, or a higher level of 1 mark ex. Chaos marines with level 1 marks of Khorne, Nurgle, tzeentch, Slaanesh, Or the same squad with level 2 of Khorne.

Will post more later.
The floor is yours

First, I think they should integrate the daemonic strength and resilience into base advances. Like lords should have S5 and T5, lieutenants and chosen should have S5, and high ranking mortal servants should have S4.

About the ranked marks, I think the first level should be for the majority of army, with second being reserved for cult troops, and chosen, whilst the third is for lords and lieutenants.

I think those are simple ways of streamlining the old advances into the current age. If we have mutations like 3.5 then each squad will feel like the X-men from all of their random mutations.

For HQs I'd like to see Daemon princes gone. Instead there should be Lords, Sorcerors, priests, and warsmiths (for lack of better terms), each of them should have two ranks, and be like Haemonculi (honestly I think pretty much every HQ should be like haemonculi for choosing them). To make a daemon prince, one should only need to buy the upgrade "Daemonic Stature" for a lord, which should change the stats to something like WS+2 BS+1 S6 T6 W4 A+1 with any omitted state being unchanged.

Also, we need mortal servants and daemons. This should not be codex: Chaos Space Marines but codex: CHAOS

Latro_
08-07-2011, 22:37
Oooo lawdy lawd thomas here we gos agains.

For me:
HQ:
Make sorcerers similar stats to librarians but make lord able to become sorceror lords
Make lords offer an army wide benefit with USRs if given no mark (to represent other legions like IW, NL etc) and increase they configgability like the last codex but not 'as' extreme.
Make daemon princes more expensive but also make them more customisable like lords
Abbaddon - makes chosen troops, Kharn, Typus, Arhiman, Lucius provide army wide benifits that befit a WE,DG,TS,EC army (inc buffs to the likes of chosen/termies).
totally re-do the psychic powers with at least two god specific ones each.

Elites:
Chosen:
bring in line a bit like wolf guard

Termies:
Again similar to wolf guard overall.

Possessed:
For the love of all that is holy possessed to be cheaper and less random, maybe choose a type of possession level and have it inc in pts like level 1 fearless, level 2 fearless and something else etc..

Dreadnought:
Fix the mad rule and bring the weapon options up to date. Maybe add another variant like iron clad for marines but more daemon enginey

Troops:
Chaos marines:
Adjust the costs as with grey hunters etc,,, otherwise fine.

(maybe a pts break on all cult troops, certainly noise marines.

Plague marines:
Probably fine as they are, maybe make blight grenades all terrain within 6" difficult IF they dont move or maybe if they dont fire.

Noise marines:
drastic pts cut on everything

Berzerkers:
probably ok, maybe give chain axes a special rule for flavour and maybe decrease BS

Thousand sons:
drastic pts cut, only SaP if sorcerer dead. Make a lot cheaper and inf bolts a test, infact maybe make the whole squad like grey knights where they all count as a collective pshyker and cast stuff.

Fast:
Bikers:
Bring pts in line, make them more assaulty maybe to separate them from vanilla marines

Raptors:
Bring back hit and run

Havocs:
Pts adjustments

Obiltertors:
Add levels here liek i mentioned with possessed, they start out more or less like terminators and cheaper and then you level them up to be better. Say 3 levels with level 3 being kinda better than they are now.

Predator/Vindi:
Bring in line with marines

Defiler:
Scrap the defiler as a title and replace with 'Daemonic something or other' basically a set of upgrades you can add to make a custom daemonic engine (of which a defiler can be made). This would be an amazing new option in the book.

Land raiders:
Allow it to shoot at two targets etc like marines but increase pts, also add in an entirely new LR variant unique to chaos.

Daemons:
Keep as is but significantly add upgrades so you are able to take nurgle'esk' lesser daemons with say T5 for xpts etc, add wings to the DP for xpts etc...

Maybe change the possession rule somehow but i cant think how without making it unfluffy.

New units!:
Defo gonna be a flyer in there, you know its gonna happen

Daemon engine as mentioned

cultists/underlings (not on the FOC but limited to say 3 squads):
A unit again! with levels
level 1: cultists - cannon fodder, guard stats etc
level 2: beasts - like hounds etc
level 3: super beasts - spawn/monster sized nasties

deathclaw drop pods

Inquisitor Engel
08-07-2011, 22:41
Night Lords special character please...

Oathkeeper
09-07-2011, 01:11
Well I would like to see them split up the codex into two
Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Legions

Chaos Space Marines would have Abaddon and Huron stay in this codex with the other special characters.

Chaos Legions Would have chaos lords and sorcerers from during the heresy

twistedmarine
09-07-2011, 01:21
Well I would like to see them split up the codex into two
Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Legions

Chaos Space Marines would have Abaddon and Huron stay in this codex with the other special characters.

Chaos Legions Would have chaos lords and sorcerers from during the heresy

I like this for the most part. I want legion specific units. Plague terminators etc. Lords and sorcerers with eternal warrior. Typhus and kharn also need eternal warrior. And bring back daemonic wargear.

Drop pods. Different land raiders variant. Specific summoned daemons again. Daemons shouldn't have their own codex in my opinion.

Mannimarco
09-07-2011, 01:57
Well I would like to see them split up the codex into two
Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Legions

Chaos Space Marines would have Abaddon and Huron stay in this codex with the other special characters.

Chaos Legions Would have chaos lords and sorcerers from during the heresy

You know that everybody with the exception of Huron "arg a pirates life for me me mateys" Blackheart was around during the Heresy?

Ok I want.....more, bigger, faster, better.

I want lords and sorcerers to be a viable choice when compared to a prince. It saddens me to see somebody who uses daemonic pacts and channels the raw essence of the Warp being so pathetically weak when compared to almost everything else with psychic powers. The ability to take real Legion lords as well. Yes I want my lords/sorcerers to have access to the abilities as the cult troops. Fix the Khornate daemon prince so hes not the weakest fighter of the 4.

I want Chosen, the champions of the dark gods, those with millenia of combat experience and the scourge of all that lives to be more than "all the guys with melta guns hang out in the one squad"

I want a viable fast attack choice. Ok I use blight drones so Im good but I pity those non Nurgle fans as they have nothing in fast attack

I want a daemon engine for each God.

I want this pathetic mockery of daemons removed altogether or to actually be real daemons. A lesser daemon is a fury and I'll be damned if my armies story is "Necrosius, master of the Apostles of Contagion surveyed his army, there were countless plague marines of the Death Guard Legion and lesser sorcerers of the Death Guard Legion. Swarms of Blight Drones buzzed overhead as several plague hulks. Necrosius was pleased, surely Nurgle was with them if he gifted them with his pestilent machines. Necrosius raised his hands high and screamed his praise to Nurgle.......then a warp rift opened and a bunch of furies popped out wondering :wtf: is going on"

Unique vehicles for Chaos: Its silly that the Dark Mechanicus who cast off the rigid shackles of the Imperium and now live in a realm of madness where you are given free reign to make whatever you want? In the past 10k years we have a couple of aircraft and a defiler. It appears the pinnacle of Chaos engineering is "loyalist vehicle (and even then only the Heresy era ones) + spikey bits".

The removal of the stupid icon system where you lose the gods blessing if Bob drops the stick.

Rubric marines to be cheaper. Their sorcerer to be cheaper and better

Noise marines to get sonic weapons as standard

Plague marines are probably fine although will probably be made cheaper going by past experience

Same with Khorne berserkers.

Cult terminators, its gotta be said. Must suck for the Death Guard when Typhus left he took the only suit of termy armour they had. I know the WE are all psychotic killing machines but surely they still know how a jump pack works? Or a bike? Or terminator armour. Were there no TS marines in termy armour? I suppose I can understand no bikes of jump packs for a mindless automaton but theres no reason for no terminator armoured rubrics.

The obliterator slot....sorry I mean heavy support: more daemon engines, cheaper havoks

And of course a lot less of this "let no good deed go unpunished" garbage.

Garanaul the Black
09-07-2011, 02:14
Oooo lawdy lawd thomas here we gos agains.


It's Friday, we went almost an entire week without one of these threads! :eek: *resets clock*




Maybe change the possession rule somehow but i cant think how without making it unfluffy.

How about, choose a unit, on a successful leadership test on an Aspiring Champ you can choose the vessel of possession (red shirt), a failed test means the champ is consumed. Would make it less obvious where you're planning on bring it in. IE: Hmmmm, you have a squad led by a champ with a combi weapon and a fist and a squad led by a champ with nothing....I wonder where I'm going to concentrate my fire.....




deathclaw / drop pods

+10


G

Colonel Kolm
09-07-2011, 02:57
i second everything the clown herald of nurgle posted. i would also like to see the 4 other non mono-god legions have more options(especially with all the fluff coming out in various books.........). i would love to see a truly elite feel to the army as especially with the legions they are really really really old with a lot of experience yet somehow they are really not that great for all their years. i would love to see dreadnaughts not be crazy all the time, and id love to see some originality not ultramarines with spikes..............

sean_scanlon2000
09-07-2011, 03:06
hmmm ok well here goes usually i try and avoid these because wishing doesnt seem to fix anyting with GW but here goes.


First and foremost. Get rid of this Crap about every legion having fallen apart and no longer opperating together or having any type of command structure other then that of the black crusade..... If you wanna make a black crusade force then just keep playing the current codex or Hurons force.....

HQ
Kharn Typhus Lucius At the very least need to be eternal or have T5 if not T6 for typhus base not the () crap. Honestly if you look at the fluff and read enough of the info they should be ultimate killing machines. and instead they all die to a simple measly powerfist. An army wide buff wouldnt be so bad either.

Sorc's They should be on par or damn near close to Eldar level mastry of the warp... i mean come on they have been doing this for 10,000+ years some of them. Their powers should be very nasty and not tame.

Lords should be uber engines of destruction. you dont rise to be a lord or a captain in a legion by being nothing more then a measly grunt.


And a Demon prince should not be standard for every list i love the ones i made but really every captatin and every champion has become a demon prince? i highly doubt that yes there are some of them running around but not in every single force.

Scribe of Khorne
09-07-2011, 03:14
EDIT: What Mannimarco said mostly!

1 - Renegades become their own book.
2 - Legions become the focus, with warbands based on those legions.

Renegades can be so easily done, and if the rumours pan out will be, as a WD Codex.

A few special characters, access to Icons (as per 4th Edition CSM), Space Marine units, and some Cultist/Traitor Guard (like henchman where done in Grey Knights) type units. You need a way to represent the recently turned, and the only way you can do that, and give the Legions their due, and still keep the codex manageable, is by splitting the books.

Thats it, thats what Renegades are to me, and it would be easy and allow for a proper Chaos Marine book....

Chaos Legions!

Marks are back, and allow for pure Cult Lists, and can be applied to any 'Marine' in the book, and several of the Vehicles.

Legions have special rules, allowing for even more cult legion lists vs cult lists (rumoured to be in by Ghost21!!!) :evilgrin:

The Undivided/Unaligned Legions get special characters, rules, and lists (driven by SC's or not I dont care).

New daemonic vehicles (Bloodslaughterer/Blight Drone) are added into the book.

New Units (especially for cults) such as World Eaters on Juggernaughts, are added in, new transport/deployment options added in.

Spawn, remooooooooooooooved from the Codex.

Thats all I want. :D

Mannimarco
09-07-2011, 03:16
Might as well go the whole 9 yards: I want the daemon primarchs (the surviving ones anyway). Hear me out, some might argue that having such legendary character would upset the game balance. I mean look at the fluff for the primarchsL They are just to powerful to represent on the table arnt they?

Well actually no theyre not! There are characters who the primarchs own achievements pale in comparison to.

I cant have Fulgrim because in his fluff he killed 2 other primarchs, thats to powerful? The loyalists have a character who burnt part of a God and trashed a daemon realm without fear of reprisal and he has a model. I cant have Angron because he and 12 bloodthirsters wiped out 100 grey knights (and were banished themselves)? The loyalists have a single character who held off an army of Orks for a night and a day and didnt die. I cant have Mortarions because.....well he hasnt really done much but its ok for a character who ripped apart a carnifex with his bare hands in his fluff? I cant have the super mega powerful psyker Magnus but its ok for the loyalists to have a librarian who touched the hive mind? (Thats the thing whose presence drives psykers mad).

IMO we cant use "your fluff is to powerful to have a model on the table", especially when we look at some other characters fluff which the primarchs themselves couldnt do but its ok for everybody else to. Fluff doesnt have to determine tabletop performance though. Good thing really as Calgar would beat ork armies single handedly, Maugen Ra would slaughter scores of nids and the thousand sons would actually be a credible threat with their psychic powers ;)

twistedmarine
09-07-2011, 03:17
How about for the dread crazed rule it shoots the nearest enemy model. If none are in range, then, it shoots friendlies.

Give us an hq choice from the heresy era that is in a dread with special rules(sane enough not to get the crazed rule). And I second making the khorne prince more deadly. It's dedicated its life to khorne and loves to kill things!!! Why is it the weakest choice?!

Edit: and everything mannimarco has said. Primarchs. Yes please.

sean_scanlon2000
09-07-2011, 04:00
yes honestly the last codex was well so interesting and unique. there were just so many different ways to use it. where as the current rendition just simply ruined the whole feel of the army and made it just another power armored force. For Space marines you can have what how many codexes now? 5-6 different ones? and yet you have a single codex thats supposed to represent half the original legions as well as the companies and chapters that have now fallen into heresy? please it was pathetic. ruined playing chaos in the current edition for alot of players.

I will say i do hope they keep the ability to take cult troops as troops though for when your playing each individual legion. i want my WE to actually have WE troops.

If they simply make it so that you can play the original legions in all their glory that would be a step in the right direction and could easily expand the line as well as creating several different list variations so that you never have to see the same boring net lists repeated over and over again.

Scribe of Khorne
09-07-2011, 05:14
I want the new Dread crazy rule to be like the GK drug grenades.

Roll a 1 - Nothing happens.
2+ - You just pretty much autowin any combat your in. :p

Baaltor
09-07-2011, 05:21
We all float down here, and you will too!

Agreed.



I want a viable fast attack choice. Ok I use blight drones so Im good but I pity those non Nurgle fans as they have nothing in fast attack

Frankly I thought you said we should all be happy with blight drones in the other thread. :P


Unique vehicles for Chaos: Its silly that the Dark Mechanicus who cast off the rigid shackles of the Imperium and now live in a realm of madness where you are given free reign to make whatever you want? In the past 10k years we have a couple of aircraft and a defiler. It appears the pinnacle of Chaos engineering is "loyalist vehicle (and even then only the Heresy era ones) + spikey bits".

But Georgie, we're not supposed to have good tech, we're supposed to only use the power of our faith. The spike attract the favour of the gods, and thus are all we need!


The removal of the stupid icon system where you lose the gods blessing if Bob drops the stick.

The gods are fickle, but not that fickle.



Rubric marines to be cheaper. Their sorcerer to be cheaper and better

Herpa derp derp, I cost as much as a librarian, and my only powers are glorified guns that don't always work.


And of course a lot less of this "let no good deed go unpunished" garbage.

MY GOD YES! People who think they're evil in real life? Yeah frackin' right. No one thinks that they're evil!

On a more sane note Dan Abnett in an Eternal Warrior interview said some reasonable stuff about this, saying that chaos does not just staple a baby to its hat, they do the things they do because for some reason, somewhere down the line they decided that what they do is NECESSARILY.

Horus didn't grow a moustache and start tying sisters of silence to railroads, he believed the emperor was going to betray humanity for his own sake, and thus he rebelled, to SAVE humanity. The primarchs fell trying to do the right thing, not because they wanted to be "EVIL"

Scribe of Khorne
09-07-2011, 05:22
Whoa, I JUST read that on BnC... :D

Inquisitor Aaron
09-07-2011, 06:07
jet bikes would be cool =/

Abaraxas
09-07-2011, 06:25
Would love for the 4 dedicated legions to get TDA miniatures.

Baaltor
09-07-2011, 06:26
Whoa, I JUST read that on BnC... :D

Read that last bit? What a coincidence, because *I* just said that on B&C. :P

Shamana
09-07-2011, 08:51
Horus didn't grow a moustache and start tying sisters of silence to railroads, he believed the emperor was going to betray humanity for his own sake, and thus he rebelled, to SAVE humanity. The primarchs fell trying to do the right thing, not because they wanted to be "EVIL"

Perhaps - but that was 10 millenia ago. Chaos can be quite seductive and insidious, and even the best intentions can easily be turned. Do you think the years of fratricidal war and the thousands of years in the Eye of Terror have left the legionarries unchanged mentally?

A long time ago, the people who would become the chaos lords and daemon princes might have reasoned like regular humans... well, regular Space Marines, at least. Now, I'd say Chaos warlords are no less alien to the human mindset than eldar or Orks are. That "misunderstood" or "necessary" stuff might have been more or less acceptable back in the Heresy, but that was a long time ago in the 40K universe. What the renegade legions wanted matters little compared to what they became - through their will, happenstance, or the intrigues of the Chaos Gods.

BTW, I think the "let no good deed go unpunished" is in fact a fitting mentality in the 40k-verse. After all, what is a "good deed"? By that one usually means an act that happens to be beneficial to humanity in the Imperium (the majority of humanity is IN the Imperium, and the well-being of Tau, Hrud, Eldar, Orks etc has seldom been taken into consideration); an act that provides help and inspiration to humanity in the face of a universe that is not just uncaring, but actively malevolent. The Dark Gods are in large part the source of that malevolence. By that measure "let no good deed go unpunished" sounds fairly acceptable to their champions. Every deed that makes humanity's lot in the Imperium a bit better is indirectly an affront to the Chaos Gods. It is an act of defiance, thus a challenge.

That said champions started as relentless, near-psychotic killing machines (read: Space Marines) and had several millenia to hone their bloodthirst, psychoses, and dedication to utterly inhuman forces also helps.

Anyway, back to the crunch. Disclaimer: I am not a chaos player, but I think the below could make them more interesting to play (as well as play against):

- Chaos lords with the options for a lot of mutations/gifts/upgrades. I'd rather not have them auto-included, that's what special characters are for. Besides, 40k focuses on small-scale fights - it's quite feasible for the lord of a 40-men terror squad to NOT be a monstrocity as much stronger and tougher than a regular space marine as said marine is to a guardsman (which is what T/S 5 is to T/S 4). Chaos lords can take a squad of chosen as troops like a warboss can take nobz. Give CLs army-wide upgrades to reflect different legion ancestry or groups so you don't have to take a SC to represent, say, Iron Warriors.

- Sorcerers: more powerful spells, if possibly riskier. Only Tzeentch Daemons, Grey Knights and Eldar should have better psykers. Allow for them to take "Legion" upgrades as well.

- Chosen can purchase various USR upgrades, not unlike the BT troops - furious charge, stubborn, tank hunters, etc. They pay good (read: not very high, not very low) prices for them

- Fix possessed. Possibly include different abilities depending on marks.

- Dreadnought being, perhaps, a little less fratricidally chaotic? Options for marks would be fun.

- Cheaper special guns for CSMs. I'm actually not in favor of making them stronger/cheaper than grey hunters - just because one unit was made abnormally good doesn't mean everyone should get boosted, it's much better to nerf it than go boosting everyone. Let's not forget that until GHs hit the field, CSMs were possibly the best elite (as in, not horde) troop choice.

- Adjust some legion troops, such as Noise marines and Rubric marines.

- Chaos Cultists. Rabble (conscript-level) and less rabble (guardsman+) versions, possibly with options for the less rabble version to account for beastmen and other minor mutants.

- More USR upgrades for Havocs, bring them in line with "current" assault marines price-wise. Possibly make them a bit better and more expensive (compared to AMs, not now).

- Variant Land Raiders and predator/rhino/razorback options. If anything, the Dark Mechanicus should be less hide-bound when it comes to upgrades.

- special (at least lesser) daemons if you have marked lords/sorcerers.

- Spawn either made a serious threat (i.e. MC that can actually be nasty in combat) or removed.

- More daemonic/supernatural guns and upgrades.

Ozorik
09-07-2011, 09:07
I want a complete and well designed renegade army without a single chaos marine in it. The forces of chaos are far more diverse than a handful of disgruntled marines.

I know that this won't happen due to GW's utter fixation on anything wearing power armour but this is a wishlist thread after all.

Lord Gabranth
09-07-2011, 09:28
I have to agree with the clown on this. Fast attack. In 10k years since the HH you would think that the marines in the Eye would have atleast tried to make (or steal:evilgrin:) a ******* land speeder.

Dreadclaw as well. I want to deepstrike every troop I have.

And I want to see a plastic raptor kit with options but that wish has be shat on due to finecrap.

crandall87
09-07-2011, 10:09
Keep lash! We all know how much non Chaos players hate it so I wouldn't be surprised if it goes :(

I would like to see possessed get better so they are worth taking, raptors also.

The dreadclaw would be great. Imagine a chosen squad with 4 meltas drop podding in behind enemy tanks *drools*

Cultists, cultists, cultists! Please GW listen to the masses.

More daemon engines, worth while dreadnoughts and cheaper point costs for vehicles to bring them in line with the loyalists.

Chaos Marks for Daemons. Just a standard daemon entry that allows you to give them a mark to make them into bloodletters, daemonettes etc. would be awesome. Same for the GD.

Juggernought squads ridden by Berserkers. Lets have our own thunderwolf cav!

Sonic Weapons to be taken on everything if you wanted a pure Slaaneshi army

Delicious Ron
09-07-2011, 14:21
I want a big juicy LatD codex or a Chaos codex that incorporates all aspects of chaos.

kane40k
09-07-2011, 14:34
All i want for christmas is special rules and background and units that make us more villain-ish :) instead of Rage/naughty Space Marines. :)

AlphariusOmegon20
10-07-2011, 03:52
Night Lords special character please...

I'd be happy with an AL one myself.

Born Again
10-07-2011, 04:13
I just want to see one book that makes everyone happy whether you want to play a Legion, a Power-dedicated warband, Red Corsairs, or LatD. It can be done.

Garanaul the Black
10-07-2011, 06:03
Our own Land Raider variant or two would be nice.

Someone in another thread suggested that CSM get a second special weapon at five men instead of ten (Plague Marines getting a second special at seven men) to make them more attractive in comparison to Cult Troops.

Did I mention Drop Pods?


G

Inquisitor Engel
10-07-2011, 07:50
I just want to see one book that makes everyone happy whether you want to play a Legion, a Power-dedicated warband, Red Corsairs, or LatD. It can be done.

It was done. It was called the 3.5e Chaos Codex.

Though opinions on it are... mixed, since it was written by Pete Haines, who had, shall we say... a soft spot, for the followers of the Dark Gods.

Born Again
10-07-2011, 07:59
^ Allow me to rephrase. I just want to see one book that makes everyone happy whether you want to play a Legion, a Power-dedicated warband, Red Corsairs, or LatD, that isn't an over-powered, complicated mess open to all kinds of abuse. It can be done.

RunepriestRidcully
10-07-2011, 08:45
For Thousand Sons to be able to take heavy and special weapons, just do it so that "inferno bolts" -2 to the AP of the weapon the person is using, so AP5 becomes AP3, AP4 becomes AP2 ect, the "rubrics can't use them because they are too complicated" argument does not hold water with A) Brain dead Zombie marines can use them, and B)Battle of the fang has that when in battle, the rubrics are as skilled as any other marine..
Also, cultists, marked daemons beastmen packs and daemon engines/Dark Mechanicus stuff so that chaos does not feel just like another power armour army.
GIVE RELIC BLADES BACK!!! it gets taken from us and given to the loyalists, I know this happens to every army, but it would be nice if it got reversed.
Something that is decent for under 100pts, marines have attack bikes, land speeders, ect, can't we have something other then an obliterator or chaos mariens 5/6 man squad with a special weapon.

Helicon_One
10-07-2011, 11:10
I want a complete and well designed renegade army without a single chaos marine in it. The forces of chaos are far more diverse than a handful of disgruntled marines.

On the other hand, 99% of these armies can be represented with the Imperial Guard Codex. Most 'renegade' forces are just Guard Gone Bad and far beneath the attention of the Chaos Powers, its not like Average Joe Grunt starts kneeling down to Tzeentch and suddenly he sprouts extra limbs and has his own flock of Horrors summoned out of the ether to do his bidding. There just isn't all that much difference between a bunch of grunts with lasguns yelling FOR THE EMPEROR and a bunch of grunts with lasguns yelling FOR THE DARK GODS.

Ozorik
10-07-2011, 11:13
On the other hand, 99% of these armies can be represented with the Imperial Guard Codex.

The same is true for chaos marines and the space marine codex.

If warrior weapons still existed the IG codex would work (but it would still not be a particularly good fit). Renegade IG are far from the only type of human renegade so while they could form the core of any renegade codex there needs to be greater variety in terms of organisation, equipment and troop types to allow for a reasonably representative renegade army.

tezza21
10-07-2011, 11:21
Well I would love gw to redo the bezerker minis they suck. And make chararcters for all the undivided legions like iron warriors and nightlords.

Azmodan666
10-07-2011, 13:32
diffrent aproach on noise marines/emperrors children.
All that people sugest is +1 I and sonic weapons (that was nice... two editions ago)

But maybe some special rules to cover their fluff as an elite force (aquila eagle bearers - make elite units scoring as long as they are at full strenght)

Note on Laeran and fabius bile enchantment (acute senses at least)

Close combat unit (marines on drugs).
EC raptors having hit and run.
The phoenican guard maybe :].

I rather see sonic weapon forcing oponent to re-roll succesful armour saves then increase number of shots. This way they will be unique.

+ many many special skills. full metal steel bike spitting sonic DAKKA could have some special charge rules.

and making lucius worth taking... at least once :P.

Fixing daemon weapon, they really need some good rules. (Power weapon increasing strenght + 2 and forcing a re-roll on inv saves + one random ability from table. If you lost close combat the weapon rebels and hits da lord i da head)

Wide army special rules, making chaos gods more present on the table top - like sisters of battle faith points. E.g. Khorne army could set enemy on frenzy forcing them to charge.

Legion special rules (this have so many possibilities, that every legion could have their own codex) + daemons back plz .

I hope the new chaos dex will have many NEW ideas. more special rules, maybe they make cult fast and elite choices. The chaos dex have so much potential.

There is so much more then +1I, +1A , +1T, 5+ inv.

and TBH i would like to see chaos sorcery working a bit diffrent.

Example: Casting a spell (psychic power) with a help of a daemon (daemon pact) making the spell stronger or immune to dispell (6th ed rumour), or immune to psyhyc hood etc, but also more risky, failed atempt = auto perils

Mannimarco
10-07-2011, 13:49
I'd be happy with an AL one myself.

Already exists mate. Ok so hes a poor choice since the updated pdf but he still has a place in a unit of berserkers.

Erazmus_M_Wattle
10-07-2011, 14:03
I'd be happy with what most people have said.

I'd wouldn't mind if Deads kept crazed. But for the pay off I'd like a benefit to go with the disadvantage. Giving them marks would be good.

Raptors should have hit and run and have the fear causing effect back. If raptors are to return as an undivided cult then I'd like to have markable chaos assault squads as well.

Also since daemons are to stay as an army in their own right I'd like the undivided daemons in the lust to be a little more fleshed out. How about furies. How about some other undivided daemon units that fulfill different functions.

More daemonic technology please.

TheConverter15
10-07-2011, 14:26
Hmm, I'd like a "Codex:Chaos Renegades" with traitor guard units with a mix of various marines in there (splinter factions like Red Corsairs). Then a release of individual legion codexes (Codex: Death Guard, Codex: World Eaters etc) with maybe rules for primarchs but a points limit on them so they arent placed in a skirmish sized game (I.e used only at 2500pts+).

Also I would like marks to be better, a lord with Mark of Nurgle getting FnP and a lord with Tzeentch getting the 4+ invul and other various bonuses. Maybe a Khorne lord getting Furious charge and 2+ attacks. Specific demons would be nice too, and giving them options too. Also, more demon engines, and maybe simple vehicles such as a razorback and a land speeder could be included :p Options for demon prince (other than marks) and more psychic powers. And maybe some new models (nurgle marines, noise marines and thousand sons we are looking at you :) For the legion specific codexes, maybe we could have legion specific weaponry (chainaxes etc). Finally get rid of the "crazed" rule for dreads :D That is all ;)

Deus Mechanicus
10-07-2011, 14:32
I know people are hoping for a larger focus for the Legions, but i hope that Renegades wont be neglected.

Lord Gabranth
10-07-2011, 15:12
Already exists mate. Ok so hes a poor choice since the updated pdf but he still has a place in a unit of berserkers.

I think the clown is trying to trick me in to coming down there with him, where not only balloons float, but I will too.

What special character and pdf do you speak of?

Mannimarco
10-07-2011, 15:44
the PDF (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/i/IA5_RHFAQ.pdf)

Arkos the Faithless

WS - 6
BS - 5
S - 4
T - 4
W - 3
I - 5
A - 4
LD - 10
SV - 3+/5++

special rules - independent character, fearless, 5+ invulnerable save, son of Alpharius, cunning tactician.

Son of Alpharius removes the 0-1 limit on AL marines when used in the IA5 list
Cunning tactician gives Arkos and any squad he joins the counter attack USR

Wargear - power armour, bolt pistol, combi melta, dark blade (woohoo 3.5 weapon that the loyalists stole and called relic blades), frag and krak grenades.

Used to be better in the book as he was T5 then.

Excessus
10-07-2011, 15:55
Floating balloons, wooo!!! :D

Well, Arkos exists, sure... But in tournaments he's quite forbidden, at least here in Sweden...

If they'd put him in a new codex he'd have to be upgraded somehow...allthough I'd take him in his current version any day in the current codex!

...if only I could... :(

Mannimarco
10-07-2011, 16:59
You can, just not in every tournament. Not that whether something is tourny legal or not should have any bearing on whats acceptable in a pick up game but this isnt the time or place to discuss such things ;)

Scribe of Khorne
11-07-2011, 04:24
^ Allow me to rephrase. I just want to see one book that makes everyone happy whether you want to play a Legion, a Power-dedicated warband, Red Corsairs, or LatD, that isn't an over-powered, complicated mess open to all kinds of abuse. It can be done.

Well...since this is a wishlist thread I guess one cant argue with your wish. :p

I would be very surprised and entertained if such a thing is done, while I find it much more likely we will have something like this.

Renegades WD List, including LatD entries, and Huron.

Chaos Legions List, including Power Dedicated entries, and special rules for each Legion.

Combining that into one book? It would double the Space Marine codex in units, easily.

RunepriestRidcully
11-07-2011, 07:22
Balance... both legion and Renegade players should be happy with it if they have to share a book, we're not like loyalist where you can just jump to a dozen other codexs whilst everything else gets neglected for you to have a codex for every colour in the rainbow.

Scammel
11-07-2011, 07:34
Pretty much everything that The Clown said on the first page. And please, please, please keep the stinkin' mortals out of my CSM book.

spurker
11-07-2011, 07:34
Multi wound nurgle marines rather than high toughness would be my choice

Max_Killfactor
11-07-2011, 12:24
World Eaters

Ozorik
11-07-2011, 13:31
Pretty much everything that The Clown said on the first page. And please, please, please keep the stinkin' mortals out of my CSM book.

Well, if the rumours are to be believed, there will be 2 chaos books, one of which will be nothing but marines.

Excessus
11-07-2011, 14:28
Pretty much everything that The Clown said on the first page. And please, please, please keep the stinkin' mortals out of my CSM book.
Heeeey, don't go dissin' my Alpha Legion operatives... ;)

Delicious Ron
11-07-2011, 14:38
There just isn't all that much difference between a bunch of Space Marines with bolters yelling FOR THE EMPEROR and a bunch of Space Marines with bolters yelling FOR THE DARK GODS.

See what I did there? ;)

Scammel
11-07-2011, 14:43
Heeeey, don't go dissin' my Alpha Legion operatives...

I shall diss them all I like my good man. The issue I have is this: fluffwise, I don't see an army of Marines (especially ones as egotistical as the traitors) trusting mere humans with such vital and risky operations. Perhaps in other circumstances where a handful CSM are trying to infiltrate the target well in advance of an attack, but not when there's an entire force of them. Furthermore, when we usually see cultists in the fluff they're the main body of an army with a few CSM acting as support/leadership. Sorry, but I want the guys after whom the codex is named after to be the ones making up the bulk of the force.

Okuto
11-07-2011, 15:51
Just give me my cultists back and nurglings and I'll be a happy camper.

Scribe of Khorne
11-07-2011, 16:30
See what I did there? ;)

Unfortunately what you did is wrong. ;)

Ozorik
11-07-2011, 16:49
Its as accurate as the original statement made by Helicon_One.

Theocracity
11-07-2011, 17:01
Not a wishlist so much as pondering....

Anyone remember the rumors that came out for Tau a while back? Specifically the one that said that the list had no 'real' troop choices, and only gained them by selecting an HQ?

Do you think that idea would have an application in an updated Chaos book - specifically for the separation of different Legion forces and / or Renegades?

Those rumors could easily be bunk, of course, but it occured to me they might have an application for Chaos.

Scribe of Khorne
11-07-2011, 17:14
Its as accurate as the original statement made by Helicon_One.

Is it really?

There is very little to distinguish renegades from loyalists, but cult lists? Thats a huge difference potentially.

At the end of the day, GW can make up whatever they want, but just the other day I threw together a Night Lords based list from a Soul Hunter/Blood Reaver theme, and it could just as easily be played with Codex Space Marine.

There is a whole lot more in terms of background to support CSM being different, then there is traitor guard having a ton of funky units, unless you want to count mutants and beastmen I guess, which have IA lists...

Ozorik
11-07-2011, 18:31
Is it really?

There is very little to distinguish renegades from loyalists, but cult lists? Thats a huge difference potentially.

There are human cults just as much as there are Marine ones. Every single argument that can be put forth for Chaos marines to have their own distinct list is also equally true for all mortal followers of chaos.

The fluff certainly exists, just not as much as there are for marines. Probably because there has never been a real Chaos mortals list with the possible exception of LatD and 2nd ed Deamon world list.

Scribe of Khorne
11-07-2011, 18:47
True enough, but saying CSM = SM, is still not quite the same as Traitor Guard and Loyalist Guard. CSM are central to the setting, from some perspectives they are arguably the most important faction in the modern interpretation of the setting, traitor guard are not.

Ozorik
11-07-2011, 18:55
traitor guard are not.

Of course they are. All followers of chaos are of equal importance to the setting, it is simply that GW gives marines more attention just like they give imperial marines more attention. Human chaos followers have always been central to the spread of chaos ever since the Horus Heresy (Large segments of the Imperal army and fleet sided with Horus afterall). As they don't wear power armour though they are seen as less 'cool' and so they have been neglected for years, this doesn't mean that they don't count. It could even be argued that human chaos followers are more important as they are the enemy within which is central to why the Imperium is as it is.

Essentially Human chaos forces deserve far (far) more recognition than they get.

Delicious Ron
11-07-2011, 19:26
CSM are central to the setting, from some perspectives they are arguably the most important faction in the modern interpretation of the setting, traitor guard are not.

I disagree, I would rather say Chaos is the defining piece Warhammer fantasy/40k and yes the space marines are important part of that, But the human or "mortal" followers are equally important. It's the same thing with loyalists, sure the space marine are very important but still are only a million or two of them in the whole galaxy, it's the imperial guard that are the actual hammer of the Empire.

Theocracity
11-07-2011, 19:27
Of course they are. All followers of chaos are of equal importance to the setting, it is simply that GW gives marines more attention just like they give imperial marines more attention. Human chaos followers have always been central to the spread of chaos ever since the Horus Heresy (Large segments of the Imperal army and fleet sided with Horus afterall). As they don't wear power armour though they are seen as less 'cool' and so they have been neglected for years, this doesn't mean that they don't count. It could even be argued that human chaos followers are more important as they are the enemy within which is central to why the Imperium is as it is.

Essentially Human chaos forces deserve far (far) more recognition than they get.

Indeed. The Imperium's obsession with heresy and constant Crusades can't always be due to Traitor Marines - there wouldn't be enough to fight.

Delicious Ron
11-07-2011, 19:35
Indeed. The Imperium's obsession with heresy and constant Crusades can't always be due to Traitor Marines - there wouldn't be enough to fight.

Exactly, it's not space marines who hand out all those flyers for the local chaos cult ;)

DeeKay
11-07-2011, 20:04
What the LatD supporters are either ignoring or just not recognising is the popularity of power armour and the dollar/pound/other currency signs attached to that popularity.

As cool as a pure LatD list would be, it would only really appeal to people who have already gotten quite deep into the 40k universe. Chaos Space Marines and their daemonic allies by comparison offer relatively easy entry into that facet of the world. It is visually appealing, you can clearly see that these guys are meant to be the "baddies", and you can use (potentially) any and all bits you can get your hands on to make them. If you've seen any 10 year olds attempts at converting Black Reach marines to Chaos then you know what I mean.

By the time the new Chaos player comes to appreciate the richness and variety that Chaos has to offer, chances are they will be getting into Forge World, and the LatD forces are quite well represented in the Siege of Vraks books.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that genetically engineered superhuman warriors from hell are a better starting point for Chaos than what are essentially disgruntled insurgents. That may simplify things a bit more than I intended but you get the idea.

With regards,
Dan.

Scribe of Khorne
11-07-2011, 20:06
The Heresy was driven by the Traitor Legions. Without the Heresy we have a massively different setting. Thats the angle I look at it from.

Yes mortal followers of chaos matter, and yes they have a place in the setting, but again I dont think its anywhere near the importance of the Chaos Legions.

Biased perhaps, but thats how I see it.

Ozorik
11-07-2011, 20:18
What the LatD supporters are either ignoring or just not recognising is the popularity of power armour and the dollar/pound/other currency signs attached to that popularity.

According to the rumour that kicked off this whole thread there will be two Chaos codices. One pure marine for those people with an unhealthy attachment to 3+ saves and one 'renegade' for normal people. Probably wishlisting gone wild but as this is a wishlist thread....


Without the Heresy we have a massively different setting. Thats the angle I look at it from.


The Legions were only part of the renegade forces. Remember that the Heresy was driven by Primarchs, not Marines. If Marines didn't exist the Heresy would still have happened.

Scribe of Khorne
11-07-2011, 20:40
The Legions were only part of the renegade forces. Remember that the Heresy was driven by Primarchs, not Marines. If Marines didn't exist the Heresy would still have happened.

Yes, if they didnt exist, but they do and for those who play them its the smallest leap to the Primarchs who turned, if one wants to play within the setting with a theme emphasis.

Ozorik
11-07-2011, 20:52
if one wants to play within the setting with a theme emphasis.

With that highly specific theme this is true. There are a huge number of possible themes that can be used instead though so this is a poor argument for suggesting that only Marines have a place on a 40K tabletop.

Scribe of Khorne
11-07-2011, 22:05
There is a more coherent, fluff supported (HH Series), rules supported (past editions), basis for Chaos Space Marines.

I am not saying only marines should exist on the table, I have more non-marine armies then I do marines, however to state that CSM could just as easily be played as loyalists is ignoring far more of the fluff, and table top history of this game then saying Renegade IG can be played as IG.

Either way, I dont see much of a point in continued derailment of a perfectly worthless wishlist thread. ;)

World Eaters on Juggernaughts. Make it so!

Ozorik
12-07-2011, 00:11
however to state that CSM could just as easily be played as loyalists is ignoring far more of the fluff, and table top history of this game then saying Renegade IG can be played as IG.


That doesn't mean that Chaos Marines can't be well represented by the Space Marine codex/subcodex (just look at all those pseudo space wolf lists) and that the arguments against this being the case are exactly the same for human renegades.

AlphariusOmegon20
12-07-2011, 08:10
Already exists mate. Ok so hes a poor choice since the updated pdf but he still has a place in a unit of berserkers.

Yeah I use Arkos occasionally, but he does leave a bit to be desired. I'd prefer an AL character that did something with the FOC or gave a USr rather than only working in advantage to the Vraks FW list.

Being able to remove the 0-1 restriction on AL squads doesn't help much except with that list, you know?

Rogerio
12-07-2011, 10:40
Id love for Chosen to have some decent options, surely if they are Chosen veterans of chaos they should have some sort of Unique weapons and options like the terminators in the CSM book you should be able to kit them out with Lightning claws and stuff like that, to make the Characters more individual.

The dreads needs to be sorted out slightly, they need something to make them more Chaotic and unique rather than just a half arsed rule where if you roll a 1 or 6 then something bad happens. Perhaps some kind of daemonic upgrade or lost dark age technology, it rankles me that CSM veterans for 10,000 years have nothing to identify them from normal space marines who have been around for 200-300 years.

I think that Chosen and Terminators and Lords should have some kind of special rule against normal Space marines like the hatred rules in Warhammer. They hate everything the imperium stands for and delight in killing enemy astartes i think there should be something to represent this.

All in all i just thing the CSM should be painted more as a twisted force who are bitter and the only sense of direction they have is to cause pain and miserey upon the imperium and to restore their legions former glories, rather than just be a bunch of boring space pirates.

Wyrmwood
12-07-2011, 10:56
Basically, for the threat of the Traitor Legions - the true Horus Heresy champions, to be more akin to myths and half truths. Giants that stalk the fine edge between a fable and fact, but when they reputedly appear it's as colossi, monolithic in power, hatred, intelligence and fear. True Lords of Chaos, with rules to reflect that. What that means is, Codex: Chaos Legions as representing Horus Heresy veterans goes out the window, to be replaced by shadows of the demigods that fought in the Horus Heresy. More akin to the watered-down genestock in use by the majority of the Adeptus Astartes.

I mean, these guys walked among Primarchs; talked with them, fought with them. Some even did so alongside the Emperor and Horus; some survived Ullanor, others Isstvan, others still Mars and Terra itself, and the Scouring herding them into the Eye. They should be thinkers and warriors without peer... But quite insane, all that rage and the stuff of Chaos, soul-selling and what-not driving them to be completely maniacal, but not stupid; never stupid.

Some, like Abaddon, remain in command of their Legion. Others, like Kharn, are as good as a myth; for none who fight with him live through to confirm his tale. The use of Chosen restricted, or marked as such warriors; either split, akin to Wolf Guard, to lead their lesser brethren.

I would like to see Blood Slaughterers, Blight Drones, Contemptor Pattern Dreadnoughts, Brass Scorpions, Plague Hulks and Dreadclaws introduced into the main book. I would like to see Marks and not Icons - Icons are for Cultists, the return of proper Cult armies continuing in the tradition of the Legions they now echo. I'd like to see Deamonic gifts return and a boost to Possessed squads to make them viable; mortal servants like cultists, LatD style Traitors/Mutants and the option for basic looted vehicles, ala a generic APC - not Leman Russ' and what-not, these are only expendable humans after all. The option for different builds focussing around Lords of the Night, Warsmiths, Dark Apostles and Alpha Legion Masters side by side with the Cult lists. A return to Veteran Skills, but not as widespread; as these aren't the same legendary veterans they were back in the 3.5 list.

A return to Raptors garnering 'Hit and Run' - it makes sense, they are the best at what they do and it's all that they do. Chosen to be seperated from Veterans. Chosen are the Heresy guys and limited to a certain number based on the points in play, Veterans are not; but still Astartes with hundreds, if not thousands, of years experience - 'weaker', but more numerous. Terminator armour can then be aquired through these choices.

The 'Books of Chaos' was a fun feature that offered god specific wargear and a system for Cult/Legion based armies, it would be nice to see some of that wargear returning, such as the Destroyer, Collar of Khorne etc.

I suppose what I really mean is yes to a Codex: Chaos Legions, but with a reverse angle taken on the backstory. The current generation of Chaos Space Marines do not truly understand what it is to fight the Long War, they don't feel the same pain as the mythical Horus Heresy ghosts and it's that what makes them different.

Whatever the original mission plan during the Heresy, in the twisted and dellusional minds of the Heresy Astartes, that purpose has been corrupted to the utter destruction of the Golden Throne, Terra and the Imperium in the name of vengeance and bitter hate. Or not all, some hold true to the 'Dream of Horus' - like the Word Bearers, but even their ideals are horribly mutilated.

Here, in my mind, is the perfect way to blend Renegades and Legions with a cool theme, and to juxtapose the two. The Chaos Lords and few Chosen from those times become much more like their angelic counterparts in Paradise Lost. There are some excepts to the 'giants amongst Astartes' myth, like the Night Lords in ADB's series who, to them, it's only been a couple of hundred years since the Heresy. Perfect, this list can do them to with use of the, albeit more controlled, Veteran Skills.

Basically.

Garanaul the Black
13-07-2011, 04:38
I think that Chosen and Terminators and Lords should have some kind of special rule against normal Space marines like the hatred rules in Warhammer.

Is Hatred still a reroll to hit in close combat? If so Preferred Enemy would fit the bill and give Chosen more bite in Assault, which they could really use, IMHO.


G

1.6blackout
13-07-2011, 18:20
it would be AWESOME if they re-released beastmen for the list like they had in codex imperialis. beastmen and cultists. thats really all i want. beastment and cultists

wolfspider
13-07-2011, 23:15
The Heresy was driven by the Traitor Legions. Without the Heresy we have a massively different setting. Thats the angle I look at it from.

Yes mortal followers of chaos matter, and yes they have a place in the setting, but again I dont think its anywhere near the importance of the Chaos Legions.

Biased perhaps, but thats how I see it.

Well read the Battle of the Fang and you may be surprised about the place of mortals in some of the chaso legions ( 1000 sons I am looking at you) ;)

Voss
13-07-2011, 23:17
it would be AWESOME if they re-released beastmen for the list like they had in codex imperialis. beastmen and cultists. thats really all i want. beastment and cultists

Beastmen are more properly part of the imperial guard.

Mannimarco
13-07-2011, 23:25
Beastmen are more properly part of the Servants of Slaughter list where you can take them as troops and Khorne berserkers are elites........just saying ;)

1.6blackout
14-07-2011, 00:24
yeah. they had them in codex imperialis for chaos. and it would be a smart move because it would jsut result in me buying them

Setesh
14-07-2011, 20:52
Special characters for all/most of the legions from the black library and other supplemements if available such as Talos for the Night Lords with buff or FoC abilities.

On a related note mannimarco Arkos is either on the rock or executed there so they'd have to come up with some decent fluff to explain his reappearance. Good character though so I'd expect some sort of Alpha Legion rescue at the rock.

Abaddon's fluff is developed to make him seem less of a failure.

Typhus allows plague zombies.

Fabius' enhanced warrior table is improved with more powerful buffs.

Bring back Cypher and allow a retinue of fallen angels as his army wide FOC buff

Mounts for special characters e.g juggernaught, disc of tzeentch

Blight Drones & Blood slaughterers

large selection of wargear including mark specific [eg collar of khorne & chaos armour]

Berzerkers need a buff as they need to be the scariest CC unit out there. FNP has been a plague marine monopoly but if FNP is tiered in 6th as rumoured they should get it on 6+ or something because they are well known in the fluff to keep coming at you with missing limbs/on fire etc. Hand flamers and melta pistols added. Fluff developed so that they are not just a bunch of idiots. They'd all be dead within a year if the legion worked the way they do in the current fluff.

Add juggernaught berzerkers back in to give mono khorne more diversity

Plague marines are good as is but it would be nice to see blight grenades go back to area denial weapons [remember the little templates you got for them?] Some heavy weapons available as well as chem throwers.

Noise marines get some of their weapons at no extra cost

Thousand sons gain disc riders as fast attack slot.

Raptors get a points cost reduction.

Tank hunter rules & basilisk/artillery bombardment for iron warriors

infiltrate rules & cultist buff for alpha legion

Chem burners and poison barrage for the purge or added by lord as a buff

Alot of the chaos vehicles should be heresy era patterns. This will stylistically differentiate them from the loyalist tanks and mean that we wont have to spend three years carving off imperial iconography off them.

A return to interesting vehicle upgrades like warp fire and hulls covered with buzzsaws. Mark specific upgrades.

Land Raider should get infernal device back as not having it is lunacy.

Dreadnoughts crazed special rule should be toned down to make them viable. Mark specific upgrades for dreads e.g cloud of flies for nurgle dread [cover save or hit modifier or somesuch]

Either fighters/bombers ala forge world or a transport flyer similar to vendetta/storm raven

Either new daemon engines or new weapons for existing vehicles to represent the dark mechanicus advancements in the eye. Example would be warp energy based weaponry, nurgle chemical weapons, noise based weapons for slaanesh [e.g turret based on a pred]

Now I used to be very annoyed about taking daemons out of the book but I'm not bothered these days as if I want to do that I just have multiple FoCs. Currently im using the CSM codex with the servants of decay list from vraks as two FoCs so I don't think theres a need to stick beastmen, cultists & daemons in as they wouldn't want it to be too thick a book. If these two things are kept elsewhere for us to use they can use those pages to give the marines more interesting things.

Preferred enemy with certain units and characters against certain chapters.

The following examples off the top of my head:
Iron Warriors vs Imperial Fists & vice versa
Fallen Angels vs Dark Angels & vice versa
World Eaters Vs Thousand Sons & Emperor's Children & vice versa
Death Guard vs Emperor's Children & vice versa

A ruleset along the lines of the older animosity rules for orcs and goblins would suffice for mixed legion armies that don't get along in the fluff and would balance out any instances of broken combinations.

Improve the pschic power list with more than one mark specific power to choose from. Lash can stay in, perhaps with a little tweaking. Its only seen as so powerful because most of the other powers are rubbish by comparisson.

Garanaul the Black
15-07-2011, 04:39
On a related note mannimarco Arkos is either on the rock or executed there so they'd have to come up with some decent fluff to explain his reappearance.


Easy. How many of those 'Dark Angels' are actually Alpha Legion Marines in disguise? They simply opened the back door and let him go. /fluff :D






Abaddon's fluff is developed to make him seem less of a failure.

Abaddon is NOT a failure, he has destroyed entire worlds to achieve his goals and acquire important artifacts during various Black Crusades. GW can't have him be TOO successful as it would adversely affect the setting. One can always hope, but I just can't envision GW allowing him to siege Terra.
Please do not mention this again, especially around Mannimarco or Dusk Raider, I'm just saying. ;)

G

Setesh
15-07-2011, 06:25
like I said 'I'd expect some sort of Alpha Legion rescue at the rock' Although I'd say that his capture & revealed secrets were the one good thing that came of vraks so having him live would be kind of lame. Let's have a new character says I.

secondly I'm not trying to open up the debate about Abaddon's prowess as I've seen it before. Is some guy that goes around collecting things scary? The fact is even if you think he's a terrifying threat to the imperium people still question this so he needs to be written as a more menacing threat. We can debate for years on this issue but I think the fact remains that if people question it then the threat isn't clear enough which is important when the character is essentially the main antagonist. Ramp up the scale of his crusades, push the fear of a unified chaos.

Mannimarco
15-07-2011, 14:42
RE: Arkos being imprisoned by the Dark Angels on the Rock.

Being dead/imprisoned doesnt stop anybody these days. Eldrad is dead but is still leading most Eldar armies, even the non Ulthwe ones. Lysander was imprisoned by the Iron Warriors but managed to escape and hijack a ship and come back to lead the Imperial Fists.

My own theory on Lysander is the IW were torturing him mercilessly and one of them brought out the current SM codex as a way of trying to break him mentally, cant you just see it now?

IW: Hey Lysander, you seen the new SM dex?
Lysander: ............?
IW: Oh yeah its great, check it out it says here your chapter wish they were Ultramarines and theres something about a spiritual liege and how those who dont wish they were Ultras are all dying out......how about that?
Lysander: .........RAAAAAARGH!!!!! LYSANDER SMASH!

Theres a legend on Ultramar that on the coldest, darkest nights a hulking figure with a fiery wrath burning in his eyes can be seen stomping around the planet with a hammer in one hand and a SM codex in the other screaming "CALGAR!!!! WHAT THE HELL IS THIS CRAP!!!!"

Garanaul: Way to head me off there buddy. I was gonna go find my Liber Chaotica and repeat (again) how Abaddon has won at least 5 of the Black Crusades, lost 4 and 4 we have no info on.

Nomad
15-07-2011, 17:21
A return to the design philosophy of the 3.5 Codex. While there were problems with that book, and indeed certain builds that were outright broken, the sheer customisability was the best thing about it.

A return to marks instead of icons, but split the Mark of Tzeentch. While it makes a kind of sense for all Khorne-marked marines to be Berzerkers (OK, it hasn't always been that way) or all Nurgle-marked marines to be plague-ridden monstrosities, the Rubric only ever applied to the Thousand Sons legion, not to other Tzeentch-aligned marines. While they could keep something like the current system, giving each of the gods a Troops choice as well as allowing them to mark basic CSMs, this isn't really satisfactory. Terminators, Possessed, etc should also have the option to be god-specific.

And while it's unlikely to happen, I'd like to see the CSM and Daemons codexes merged. Or at least to have proper daemons in Codex: CSM.

Setesh
15-07-2011, 21:49
@mannimarco aye, being dead doesn't stop characters in a lot of fiction, but it's when they are always making comebacks that storylines begin to stagnate and events lose their importance as 'oh, they can just come back'

If they included Arkos in the way that they included captain Tycho that would work certainly, miraculously bringing him back otherwise would just strike me as cheapening vraks and the fluff in general.

TheConverter15
15-07-2011, 21:59
@ Mannimarco: That had me laughing for way too long! If they were to release Arkos in the new codex, I would hope they created a miniature for it :)

Mannimarco
15-07-2011, 22:24
I suppose it would cheapen it somewhat. Shame really as Arkos is a great character who seems to see "the big picture"*. That plus he smacked Azrael around, chopped an assault marine in half and killed the chapter master of the Angels of Absolution. Assuming they dont include him in the new dex......well you could always just use him from the free PDF anyway. Same with Necrosius and Lord Zhufor, they might not make it into the codex but theyre still out there and just begging to be used instead of the usual twin prince list.

*The big picture: Arkos was the instigator of the Vraks war, his agent Deacon Mamon would corrupt Cardinal Xaphan who would start a rebellion which would in turn inspire more rebellions in the surrounding area of which Arkos admitted to having operatives in place to take advantage of this.

Remember Vraks was before the 13th black crusade so is it at all possible Arkos was trying to destabilise the region in anticipation of the Crusade? Would say a lot about how high up he was if he is/was trusted enough to be a vanguard paving the way for Abaddon to strike.

Bunnahabhain
15-07-2011, 22:50
Simple.
Assuming we don't get the padagram shift, of having one great big book of Chaos, which is what should happen...

Mat(t) Ward to like Chaos Marines, and write it - I hate his style of background writing. It is so over the top it suits nobody, except Chaos which deserves to be that over the top. He can actually write fairly good rules, at least by the standards of the other writers at GW at the moment.

If he doesn't like CSM, then keep him well away....

Setesh
16-07-2011, 00:50
necrosius and zhufor still live so unless 6th changes the rulees so drastically that the IA rules are invalidated of course we can still use them, they're great particularly necrosius who I currently run with typhus. I think FW would FAQ the books anyway if that was the case.

@bunnahabhain: I think Phil will cover chaos as he did such a good job with the other 'evil' codex. Letting ward anywhere near chaos would probably result in a mob of angry fans firebombing lenton.

AmBlam
16-07-2011, 20:12
What would you like/want to see in the new codex?

Is it too much to ask for some...

Content

Basically viable options.

I want Chaos to become Chaos . I want Chaos to have the benefits and perhaps limitations of the warp. To become a unique army in its own right. If Chaos can achieve that then everyone will be happy.

Sqallum
03-10-2011, 17:58
1) Get in land raider variants, like a warpflamer or sumthink
2) Dreadnought Variants
3) Bikes are awesome... so why are SM bikes 10 pts less? Stupid!
4) Land Speeders
5) Cultists, or noob chaos marines, like scouts.
6) Chaos version of strernguard/vanguard
7) New termie variants
8) BRING BACK THE SEPARATE LEGION RULES!!! PLEASE!
9) Special characters - a biker/jump pack pyscho for NL, a stealthy killer for AL, a murderous, badass IW killer, and a devout WB nutta. Also, soup up Typhus/Lucius.
10) Razorbacks etc, honour guard, command squad.
Sqallum

Rogerio
04-10-2011, 08:57
1) Get in land raider variants, like a warpflamer or sumthink
2) Dreadnought Variants
3) Bikes are awesome... so why are SM bikes 10 pts less? Stupid!
4) Land Speeders
5) Cultists, or noob chaos marines, like scouts.
6) Chaos version of strernguard/vanguard
7) New termie variants
8) BRING BACK THE SEPARATE LEGION RULES!!! PLEASE!
9) Special characters - a biker/jump pack pyscho for NL, a stealthy killer for AL, a murderous, badass IW killer, and a devout WB nutta. Also, soup up Typhus/Lucius.
10) Razorbacks etc, honour guard, command squad.
Sqallum

Why not just the the SM codex if thats what you want? that is almost exclusively just vanilla SM with spikes...

Insane Psychopath
04-10-2011, 09:14
+ Daemonic Gifts back like 3.5, to show a Lord or commander on there path to Daemon Prince hood.

+ Daemonic Weapon like 3.5, really like them, saw no need for there remove from the current codex. Allow some brillaint conversion

+ Chaos Legion :D

+ Commander who allow you to take this or that unit as troop chose. For exsample take Abaddon or what ever HQ chose & they'll allow you to take Terminators or Chosen in power armour as troop unit.

+ Chosen unit a bit more... basicly sort of like Wolf Guards for Space Wolves in term of being able to take diffrent weapons.

+ Chaos Mark instead of Icons. Just feel if a unit was to be bless by the Chaos Gods, then would they all not have the same mark?? Icon was pretty cool for model, conversion & painting wise. But I think mark should stay. If useing Icon, possible make it give some other effect depend what mark you went for?

+ Cult Terminators units back. So Death Guard one will be I3, feel no pain, but of course the points will be slight bit more due to this.

+ Cypher & the Fallen Angel unit.

While model wise I would like to see Legion spure, Mail order only be a great way to do this along with a few Marine Chapter or Ork Clans, make spure to help further convert them.


Setesh Re: 6th edition chaos wishlist

@bunnahabhain: I think Phil will cover chaos as he did such a good job with the other 'evil' codex. Letting ward anywhere near chaos would probably result in a mob of angry fans firebombing lenton.

There a topic over on Bolter & Chainsword. Also same time Phil Kelly did do the Warrior of Chaos for Fantasy.
Ether way I alway like Phil Kelly codex :D

Ether way I look forward to a new codex Chaos Marines as they been my main army for 15 years, collected Iron Warriors for ten years. Would like to collect each of the 9 Legions.

IP

Rosstifer
04-10-2011, 09:30
Everyone's already covered everything I can think of as a returning Chaos Player (I left to play Fantasy, not because I dislike the new book; I actually think it's pretty good)

As an aside, am I the only guy on the planet who uses Raptors?

Insane Psychopath
04-10-2011, 09:40
Everyone's already covered everything I can think of as a returning Chaos Player (I left to play Fantasy, not because I dislike the new book; I actually think it's pretty good)

As an aside, am I the only guy on the planet who uses Raptors?

No I just finish a commission recently on Chaos Marines & there was two unit of Raptors, one being the current set, the other unit being the older once/when Raptor came out first in 3rd ed.

I personial not a fan of Raptor, just don't fit my game style.

IP

Wyrmwood
05-10-2011, 08:41
+ Commander who allow you to take this or that unit as troop chose. For exsample take Abaddon or what ever HQ chose & they'll allow you to take Terminators or Chosen in power armour as troop unit.
Oh god no. It reduces that special character to a cookie cutter fast track to a horrible one-dimension persona. As it stands, each character has depth and most have flexibility; besides, I sure as hell would not be forced to take Abaddon counts-as Warsmith Jon just to field a Speartip force of, for example, Iron Warriors.

It's too bad, as your other points are fair; and pretty decent. ;)

Warsmith Tharak
06-10-2011, 11:46
I want:

Mark: Most unit entry can bye a mark for x pts. This is different form squad to squad (Mark of Nurgel is cheaper on terminators than on troops). Mark of Khorne gives furius charge, +1 to ws and attack. Nurgel gives feel no pain, blight grenades, -1 int, + 1 T. and so on and so forth... Those that dont bye a mark of one god have mark of chaos undivided as 3.5.

HQ: bring back the old daemonweapons and mutations. I would like to see a system to unlock diffrent things like for 25 pts your comander have alot of terminators/bikes/rapors at his disposal and they are now troops. Diffrent points cost for different unlockable. Eternal warrior for the chosen of the gods. Psycik powers that oozes power, make them on par or better than space wolf. At least 2 etch for 3 of the gods and 6 that everybody can use. Daemon prince in the 250 pts level with powers to match.

Elite: Possessed that are more like 3.5 with a point shuffel. Pay the points for any upgrades you like.

Terminators: Some Veteran skills as an option.

Chosen: Alot of veteran skills as a option. Power weapon as a special weapon chose, Power Fist as heavy in addition to range weapons. Up to 3 special and 2 heavy.

Dreadnought: Make it sane with an optional upgrade "insane" (around 10 pts +1 A, 3.5 table).

Troop: Chaos space marines: as now but if it is not marked by one of the gods, they can bye infeltrate for 3 pts.

Daemons: Copy paste the daemon book troops.

Fast: Bikes must be cheeper.

Raptors: Bring back hit and run. 3 special weapons per squad.

Daemon engine: A new one , or sevral. Not blight drone or any from forge world.

Spawn: Drop to 20 pts and give it feel no pain. 1-5 per squad

Heavy support: Obliterators: as they are.

Havoc: price redused weapons, can bye tank hunters. Converser beamers as a new weapon choyse.

Predators: Price reductions and a new pattern.

Vindicator: Is it in line with lojalist? If not get it in line

Daemon engins: more. Defiler + sevrlal new ones. Not forge world but brand new.

Land raider: Bring back infernal device. 2 New pattern. One with alot of transport capasity. One with more weapons but lower capasity than the normal.

Transports: Rhino: as it is

Dreadclaw: As drop pod.

Tank upgrade: Bring back all from 3.5, and add new ones. For instans: Daemon shell for predator: Autocannon becomes blast.


Since most units are markeble, We now have cult terminators, havocs and everything else. We can have terminators as troop without bye abbadon (or Claus the despoiler warlord of the dark knight counts as abbadon).

Give us new weapons for infantery and tanks. Some teckpriest have been around since the Heresy and knows how to make converser beamers, and all the other have made new things. Give us more freaky weapons like the sonic weapons.

But balance it all so we end up with a tire 2 codex with five or more builds that are tire 2...

Chainaxe07
06-10-2011, 12:57
Just the lord to be viable again, reduced in points and/or upgraded profile.
Also, even non Tzeentch lords and sorcerors should have access to a (nowadays absolutely common) 4 plus inv save, 3 plus when tzeentchy.
IMHO all terminator armoured characters (chaos or not) should be ethernal warriors.
Demon prince is fine as is, as are vehicles.
I like the "walking arsenal marines" we have now, with both pistols, ccw and a bolter, keep that!
I'd slightly decrease tho cost of some cult units (noise marines mostly, and thousand sons too).
And, of course, add fliers and dreadclaws!