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Godeskian
10-07-2011, 11:23
So I like my elite, or ultra-elite armies. Normally I'm a 40K player and I tend towards terminators and Grey Knight Paladins.

But I may well be going to a WFB tournament, and I need something I can buy and build in a very short space of time, so ultra-elites. If it's competitive, bonus.

Also, I know nothing about WFB, it's armies or it's rules. :D

So, thoughts?

BBWags
10-07-2011, 11:28
Well, if you're going to a tourney, you might first want to pick up a rule book :-)

I play OnG, HE and am picking up Wood Elves and the Woodies are by far the most expensive point per model army of the three. Unfortunately they're also one of the hardest armies to play, so I'm not sure if they'd be a good choice for a beginner to take to a tourney.

RMacDeezy
10-07-2011, 11:35
i think warriors of chaos is as close as you're going to get to a strong, low count elite army but even they will be a far cry from what you're used to. there is no fantasy equivalent of marines or terminators, no matter how you slice it you're looking at about a 60 model minimum for 2k (and that's no where near the competitive ball park)

Dux
10-07-2011, 11:35
You can do a small and elite WOC army.

1 Sorclord
2+ units of warriors (they are core but better than other armies elites ;) )
big block of chosen
2 hellcannons

But its extremly boring to paint, and to play. (Look at my sig for tactica)

warplock
10-07-2011, 11:42
I think Warriors of Chaos, as mentioned, are the best bet. Tooled up Chaos Lord + Sorceror / Sorceror Lord + Exalted Hero, core = chaos warriors, special = chaos knights and chosen, rare = hellcannon / shaggoth. I think that when Dwarfs get re-done they'll probably be the ideal 'elite' army as they're sure to get a boost to their currently sub-part elite troops, and their standard warriors are still rock-hard.

RMacDeezy
10-07-2011, 11:43
you forgot step 7. pray you don't draw a skaven army lol

slingersam
10-07-2011, 11:48
What about an all troll army? 2k Comes to around 30-40 models. Warriors of chaos army book + throg

OldMaster
10-07-2011, 11:53
If I'm not mistaken, we Warriors of Chaos have the strongest and most expensive Core choice - the Chaos Warriors themselves.

fruitystu
10-07-2011, 11:58
Ore Kingdoms. Total and utter sledgehammer army. I run a 3,000 point army with two hordes, one of Bulls, the other of Ironguts. Precious little gets up from that sort of kicking, especially when you get the charge (6 S6 Impact hits, 55 rank and file attacks, either S4 Armour Piercing or S6, then 6 S4 stomps).

With the sheer offensive output, you don't even need to worry too much about the opponent being steadfast, as you'll flatten his ranks in not time.

Just....watch your flanks. And Witch Elves with Mindrazor. Nobody likes to see their Ogres jobbed quite the easily!

Dante blackfur
10-07-2011, 17:23
also with Ogres, your only going to have about 30-50 models to paint :D

warplock
10-07-2011, 22:26
Ogres may be tough with lots of wounds and attacks, and therefore expensive points-wise per model, but I wouldn't call them elite. They're WS3, low I, and have very little in the way of armour.

Hroth the Blooded
10-07-2011, 22:43
I would suggest Warriors of Chaos, Daemons of Chaos, or High Elves.

But I'm biased towards WoC if you want to be competitive and relatively elite.

Dante blackfur
11-07-2011, 01:30
well if you really want to be elite and competitive out of the 3 chaos factions go for demons. they have some of the best core in the game WS5 S5 killing blow and hatred? heck yes.

cool-kid-on-the-block
11-07-2011, 11:18
deamons.

greater deamon
tzeench herald
masque
bloodletter hordes
flamers
skulltaker on juggernaught
go go GO!!!

Haravikk
11-07-2011, 11:24
Ogres may be tough with lots of wounds and attacks, and therefore expensive points-wise per model, but I wouldn't call them elite. They're WS3, low I, and have very little in the way of armour.
Multiple wounds is a way for a model to be elite; Weapon Skill 3 will still hit everything but a good character on a 4+ quite happily, the only problem it presents is return attacks hitting more easily, but good Thougness and Wounds soak that up quite happily.

Just saying; elite doesn't have to mean that a model has to have the same good stats as other elite choices ;)

GreySeerZ
11-07-2011, 13:42
Personally I would choose one of the following:


Warriors of Chaos
Daemons of Chaos
Ogre Kingdoms


Warriors of Chaos are pretty easy to mass produce, and if going with all Chaos Warriors, are a pretty small elite force. Even better is the monstrous creature Warriors of Chaos (Trogg + trolls + giants + ogres + dragon ogres + etc.) Very low model count, relatively easy to paint and although not uber-competitive, its rare enough to usually throw most opponents a curve ball.

Daemons of Chaos are still very competitive. They will have more miniatures, but I have always thought that daemons are probably the easiest miniatures to paint (outside skeletons). They tend to be mono-chrome and have very little as far as accessories. (I know you can paint them amazingly, I'm just thinking speed paint here)

Ogres are definitely closest to 40k elite armies (terminators). Everything has somewhat similar stat lines but different abilities. Hard to play, and can be countered by certain armies, but definitely a good choice. New book should be coming somewhat soon as well, though that also means new minis to some degree.

Anyway, let us know what you pick and goodluck!

warplock
11-07-2011, 15:29
I wonder if Skaven, the ultimate horde army, can do elite...


Queek

Large retinue of his upgraded Stormvermin (5's across the board - M5, WS5, S5, I5)

Warlord on bonebreaker + large unit of Rat Ogres with Squeel Gnawtooth (hoping for the regen roll)

2 Hell Pit Abominations

Add warlocks to taste


An elite Skaven army! The lowest S is 5 (assuming you tool up the warlord), large unit of S5 monstrous infantry hopefully with regen (or if not, 5 attacks each!). And 2 HPAs.

Dante blackfur
11-07-2011, 19:06
I wonder if Skaven, the ultimate horde army, can do elite...


Queek

Large retinue of his upgraded Stormvermin (5's across the board - M5, WS5, S5, I5)

Warlord on bonebreaker + large unit of Rat Ogres with Squeel Gnawtooth (hoping for the regen roll)

2 Hell Pit Abominations

Add warlocks to taste


An elite Skaven army! The lowest S is 5 (assuming you tool up the warlord), large unit of S5 monstrous infantry hopefully with regen (or if not, 5 attacks each!). And 2 HPAs.

This is actually a fantastic army for skaven, I ran something almost Identical at Ard boyz and took second, it has a miniscule number of models (Compared to other Skaven lists) hits incredibly hard and looks sweet on the table. the only thing I added was a grayseer cause I wanted a lvl 4 caster. :) but be careful you wont make a lot of friends with this list :D

warplock
11-07-2011, 19:29
This is actually a fantastic army for skaven, I ran something almost Identical at Ard boyz and took second, it has a miniscule number of models (Compared to other Skaven lists) hits incredibly hard and looks sweet on the table. the only thing I added was a grayseer cause I wanted a lvl 4 caster. :) but be careful you wont make a lot of friends with this list :D

I've been musing as to what my next army will be, but now that I think about it, expanding my Skaven to allow me to field this ultra list is tempting. Obviousy 2 HPAs is frowned upon, but I think it would be much more acceptable in this list than in one which also has tons of slaves and war machines.

meowser
11-07-2011, 20:49
Love playing 'elite' skaven, although I only ever run 1 HPA and bring 40-60 monks plus furnace as well

MOMUS
11-07-2011, 21:00
I would love to play that competitive ogre army with my skinks :D

Daemons seem the way to go, they really are nasty.

Everblight
12-07-2011, 21:30
Easy. Demons. Fate-weaver. You've won.

Tzeentch Demons are one of if not the most powerful army in the game. Fateweaver is perfectly capable of taking out a unit per turn. Your horrors and such will wreak havok. Have fun at your tournament!!!

GreySeerZ
12-07-2011, 22:24
Yea, in the end daemons are the shizznizzle. My friend usually runs fate and spends his entire turning buffing the heck out his army, while basically shutting mine down in return. Still, the most competitive WoC tournament armies usually run massed heralds, though fateweaver does throw a wrench in most opponents plans.

Kevlar
12-07-2011, 22:29
Demons also give you the bonus of buying a 40k and fantasy army at the same time. Just magnetize the bases.

RMacDeezy
13-07-2011, 00:47
Easy. Demons. Fate-weaver. You've won.

Tzeentch Demons are one of if not the most powerful army in the game. Fateweaver is perfectly capable of taking out a unit per turn. Your horrors and such will wreak havok. Have fun at your tournament!!!

Are you serious? Have you played against tzeentch daemons in 8th? They're garbage. Any mono god army is severely handicapped and will struggle competitively. Sure, kairos is good but he's very vulnerable. Flamers are good but not stupid obnoxious anymore and horrors won't wreak havoc on anything especially when they're competing with kairos or heralds for power dice. No combat units and a dependence on random power dice means mono tzeentch really struggles. As far as daemons in general, they're nowhere near the powerhouse they used to be. 8th has levelled the playing field so much that if you think DoC are unstoppable, your generalship is called into question.

I still say to go with warriors

Lukasz_VT
13-07-2011, 01:19
I say Ogres. 30 models and you are done! In terms of "elite" meaning "low model count", I don't think you can get better. They also hit like a ton of bricks, their main weakness being uber spells that remove models regardless of wounds. Plus, they should be getting a new book in the next few month :D

Trustey
13-07-2011, 02:38
What about an all troll army? 2k Comes to around 30-40 models. Warriors of chaos army book + throg

I was going to suggest WoC with Throgg. In a 2k 2 blocks of 6 trolls to meet core, then a nasty chosen block of 20 or so, favorite mark, wailing banner/fotg should be 500 or so. Hellcannon. Then from there you have 500-600 left. BSB, sorc lord, dogs... Or skimp on something to fit a warshrine in. Thats about as few models as I can think of without going all monster, which is kinda weak for WoC. My opinion any warriors of chaos army needs at least one unit wearing chaos armor.

Godeskian
14-07-2011, 11:58
Okay, I'd like to thank everyone for their suggestions. Simply because I don't want to take a carbon copy of a friends army, I'll be skipping the Deamons, and I'm just not a fan of the look of an Ogre army

Which leaves me with
Warriors of Chaos - Basic troops plus chosen plus hellcannons
Warriors of Chaos - Throgg, Trolls, etc.
Skaven - Queek.

I've borrowed the WoC book from a friend so I've started statting out 2.400 points of army, and will hopefully get a chance to flip through the Skaven book next weekend to see if that's appealing.

Any further thoughts on those three basic army types?

Also, regarding the 'gateway' tactica in Dux's signature. If that refers to Infernal Gateway, how can you garantuee that you get that spell? I thought spell allocation was random?

Godeskian
14-07-2011, 12:16
Also, what's the deal with the Hell Pit Abominations. I took a look at the model and statline on the GW website, but I can't say I see what the 'frowned upon' issue is with them. I presume that's due to my ignorance, but if anyone can enlighten me that would be great.

GreySeerZ
14-07-2011, 13:15
Also, regarding the 'gateway' tactica in Dux's signature. If that refers to Infernal Gateway, how can you garantuee that you get that spell? I thought spell allocation was random?

It is random, but you can't have duplicate spells (except signature), unless every spell is already taken. Taking a level 4, and a level 2, both with the lore of tzeentch guarantees that one of the two models will get gateway. roll the lvl 2s first, and you guarantee that the level 4 has it (since you don't need to irresistable to cast it, it is much more beneficial being cast on several dice with the level 4). In most cases the level 4 will have the opportunity to get it anyway, as any roll of doubles on the 4 dice can be traded for Gateway, unless you roll it, in which case you have it anyway.

That said, I really don't think Gateway is that great of a spell. you only have around an 8% chance of completely removing the target unit, and even then, you have to count on your opponent not dispelling it. Out of the countless games I've played I think I've got it once, and it was against a unit I was just hoping to damage, not even gateway, so its really not the best spell. It does OK damage, but is fickle, and is just as likely to hit something with a low number of hits and strength as a high number.

Regardless, Tzeentch is still an awesome lore. Flickering fire provides flaming shots, which against the ever present regen unit, is pretty decent. Pandemonium is amazing, forcing your opponent to not use character leadership (which is devastating for some opponents) and every double they roll to cast misscasting (which combined with puppet, and in the new Storm of Magic, is ridiculously amazing). Sure your opponent will most likely dispel it in your turn, but you still get a combat phase without character leadership (broke two giant skaven slave blocks last night), and forcing him to use dice to dispel your spell is win/win. Treason is downright dirty imo. Watching swordmasters of hoeth tear themselves apart is beautiful. Seeing any horde reduce itself by a 4th is always great as well. The only spells which are meh are path to glory, though extra attacks are ok if your doing nothing else, and Baleful is OK, though hopefully you'll have other better spells to cast.

Add to all this that your caster can fly (getting him in range for spells and out of danger) can have a 2+ save, a 3++ ward, +5 to cast, reroll 1 non-1 (avoiding miscasts), add +D3 to one spell per turn, and has the ability to steal any enemy spell casters spells with 3rd eye of tzeentch, if you chose to, and a Tzeentch Sorcerer Lord is, in my opinion, one of the best casters in the game. You can chose to support him with a level 2 as well (mine usually takes death and puppet, a must for most lists), but hes pretty decent on his own, and will most likely make use of all the dice you get.


Also, what's the deal with the Hell Pit Abominations. I took a look at the model and statline on the GW website, but I can't say I see what the 'frowned upon' issue is with them. I presume that's due to my ignorance, but if anyone can enlighten me that would be great.

Its cheap, can do a ridiculous amount of damage, decent movement, has regeneration and has a chance to resurrect itself when it dies (as rare as that would seem, running 2 means that every 3rd game you have the potential to get 1 back, if they die, as most of the time one ends up surviving anyway). They're only real drawback is that every army can take a flaming unit now (flame banner), and they are weak to enemy shooting, though regen helps, but even then, they are still ridiculously good for the points.

Godeskian
14-07-2011, 13:35
It is random, but you can't have duplicate spells (except signature), unless every spell is already taken.

Gotcha.


Regardless, Tzeentch is still an awesome lore.

Awesome rundown on the potentials of the Tzeentch Lore. I'm still coming to grips with the way Magic works, so bear with me. :) What's this puppet you've mentioned? Is it a magic item?


Add to all this that your caster can fly (getting him in range for spells and out of danger) can have a 2+ save, a 3++ ward, +5 to cast, reroll 1 non-1 (avoiding miscasts), add +D3 to one spell per turn, and has the ability to steal any enemy spell casters spells with 3rd eye of tzeentch, :eek::eek::eek:

Seriously? How do you build this sucker? I'm still getting to grips with the WoC codex, but that looks rather epic.



Its cheap, can do a ridiculous amount of damage, decent movement, has regeneration and has a chance to resurrect itself when it dies (as rare as that would seem, running 2 means that every 3rd game you have the potential to get 1 back, if they die, as most of the time one ends up surviving anyway). They're only real drawback is that every army can take a flaming unit now (flame banner), and they are weak to enemy shooting, though regen helps, but even then, they are still ridiculously good for the points.

Okay, can't argue with any of that. Plus I have taken a look at the Queek model, and I have to admit I think he's kind of neat. He's got the look of a demented ninja rat about him.

Memnos
14-07-2011, 13:36
The most 'Elite' army I built was a Beastmen army.

The 3000 point version had less than 40 models. Took it to a tournament.

Won 4/5 games with it, too.

warplock
14-07-2011, 14:02
Also, what's the deal with the Hell Pit Abominations. I took a look at the model and statline on the GW website, but I can't say I see what the 'frowned upon' issue is with them.

Hell Pit Abominations don't attack as normal, they roll on a special chart, a bit like giants. One of their attacks causes 2D6 automatic S6 hits on the enemy unit (+ Thunderstomp = 3D6 hits). The other attacks are fairly nasty as well. They have 6 wounds and regeneration. You can't flee or stand and shoot at them, you have to hold when they 'charge' you. They're stubborn. Plus, if you do kill them, they have a 1/6 chance of simply coming back to life. But most importantly, they're cheap (around the same cost as a warsphynx, I believe), and equally vicious against hordes of infantry and other monsters.

Having said that, an elite 'Queek' Skaven army, whilst very enjoyable, would certainly not be that competitive - just a complete change from how Skaven are normally played, and capable of steamrolling a few unwary opponents, until they learn to counter it. There's not much room for maneuvering within the choices on the list, though, it's more of a gimmick list.

EDIT: Didn't see GreySeerZ's post, sorry.

Godeskian
14-07-2011, 14:23
Having said that, an elite 'Queek' Skaven army, whilst very enjoyable, would certainly not be that competitive - just a complete change from how Skaven are normally played, and capable of steamrolling a few unwary opponents, until they learn to counter it. There's not much room for maneuvering within the choices on the list, though, it's more of a gimmick list.

I'm more interested in fun than I am in competitivness when all is said and done, and as I'm only going to be playing this army in playtest and then a tournament my tournament opponents aren't going to get a chance to learn how to counter it.

Mind you, I'm not actually buying my first models till august, so I still have a few weeks to decide which way to go.

GreySeerZ
14-07-2011, 14:53
What's this puppet you've mentioned? Is it a magic item?

Yes, Infernal Puppet allows you to modify any miscast (yours or your opponents) by up to D3. This means that if your opponent rolls a 7 or lower, you potentially have the ability to modify it to a 4, and he then has a 50% chance of losing that caster. It also allows you to throw as many dice as you want at spells, because most of the time you will be able to modify your miscast to a 7 (which is only a st 10 hit for everything in base contact with your caster). Since your flying around solo, no damage occurs, and you simply just lose D6 power dice. Its an awesome item. I usually put it on a level 2, as my level 4 is usually taking casting gear.


Seriously? How do you build this sucker? I'm still getting to grips with the WoC codex, but that looks rather epic.

Yea, hes pretty awesome.

Sorcerer Lord
Mark of Tzeentch (+1 Ward, +1 cast)
Disc of Tzeentch
Gifts: Conjoined Haemonculus (+D3 cast)/Third Eye of Tzeentch (Use opponents spells for turn)
Items: Talisman of Preservation (4++ ward, with MoT 3++)/Enchanted Shield (+2 armor save, now 2+)/Blood of Tzeentch (Re-roll any non-1s)

That's the basic build, you can throw in a basic magic weapon (Biting Blade) if you want to fight ethereal, or kill missile troops, but hes really meant to just fly around, avoid combat, and cast spells. Flying should keep him safe, while also close enough to supply leadership if necessary.


I'm more interested in fun than I am in competitivness when all is said and done, and as I'm only going to be playing this army in playtest and then a tournament my tournament opponents aren't going to get a chance to learn how to counter it.

Mind you, I'm not actually buying my first models till august, so I still have a few weeks to decide which way to go.

Its not so much the competitiveness. It will do OK, but not great, as it isn't that strong of a list, even against opponents who haven't face it yet (assuming their list is competitive). Its more that if you ever want to expand on your Skaven army (which you will, everyone gets bored playing the same list over and over again) you will be forced to buy non-elite units, as that's all that's really left. As long as you don't mind that transition, then it wouldn't be a bad choice. WoC/DoC/Ogres will make sure that any list you build is an elite list (aside from maybe marauder hordes in WoC) and WoC/DoC are also competitive, which doesn't hurt. Also the model ranges for both are pretty awesome, and the new Manticore model is amazingly beautiful, even if it isn't a "good" competitive choice. I am going to pick one up just in case I want to run a lvl 4 shadow sorcerer lord while not giving up flying. I just want to paint the sucker :D.

Godeskian
14-07-2011, 17:43
Okay GreySeerz, I think you've just about convinced me to run a Tzeentch themed WoC army. Would you be averse to me asking for your advice on my army composition once I've statted out a few basic outlines?

Godeskian
14-07-2011, 18:00
Yeah nevermind, I'm an idiot.

GreySeerZ
14-07-2011, 18:04
Okay GreySeerz, I think you've just about convinced me to run a Tzeentch themed WoC army. Would you be averse to me asking for your advice on my army composition once I've statted out a few basic outlines?

Ofcourse Not! I'm glad I could bring you over to the dark side :evilgrin:. I am definitely not the best Warhammer player ever, but I have been playing WoC through several editions, and along with having amassed a relatively huge force, have tried playing every unit at one point or another. Well, except for a pure monster mash list which I am currently going to try out: Trolls, ogres, dragon ogres, giants, etc. But due to costs that will probably take a while to build.

But yea, feel free to start an army list thread, or PM me, with your ideas and I can help you out. As for this thread we should probably let it die, but posting in army lists, or even just a general thread would be fine. Just let me know!

lparigi34
15-07-2011, 19:53
The most elite Ive played against so far was Vs Dwarfs. I will tell what was there, from the top of my head.

2 UBER units of elite guys (ironbreakers?) made Scouts (I think the book max is one unit and for the second you need a character (special?).

4 War machines (two stone throwers, a cannon and a flamethrower), all max'd in runes to reroll whatever...

Max'd on Characters that gave bonuses to those 2 Uber units

That was it... So basically he Scout deploy those two units in front of your battle line and the he harras you... badly...

It might be a bit of "all or nothing", but I must admit it is quite strong.

drear
15-07-2011, 20:03
id say lizardmen are for consideration my 2k army has 3 units of 20 (2 units saurus and 1 unit temple guard) a slann a priest, a stegadon , 5 skink and a salamander.

thats 69 models for 2k points and its fairly powerful , and takes part in every phase, including shooting!