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0604854
10-07-2011, 14:05
Which are the best monsters from the storm of magic book for the points, personally I am going with chimeras.

t-tauri
10-07-2011, 15:10
Moved to general. Please do not spam misplaced threads.

ArtificerArmour
10-07-2011, 15:14
chaos Spawn.

colonel kane trine
10-07-2011, 15:22
Im loving the greater chaos spawn im definately adding that to my pestilens skaven army

kickboxerdog
10-07-2011, 15:28
emperor dragons, yes there a expensive points cost but for what u get it awarsome haveing a lvl wizard dragon , imagine that on top of a fulcrum with its 9 wounds and a 3+ ward save

drear
10-07-2011, 15:33
the chimera seems an epic creature, it can get up to 8 attacks , 1 of which gets d3 attacks, and 1 can have arp..
all are poison D: and with a healthy scaly skin save it should weather some hits.
only problem is its low i ):

i am liking the zoat, hes a sturdy wizard and knows life.

fruitystu
10-07-2011, 15:39
Bonegrinder Giant.

Who doesn't like being able to stomp even an Emperor Dragon in the nads? Not to mention hoofing an opposing character through, then ideally out, of his unit? Take THAT bsb!

Also....12 point Harpies, with Killing Blow? I should bloody well Coco!

drear
10-07-2011, 15:42
i did notice the harpies..poison attacks and killing blow will score alot of wounds on smaller units and warmachines etc o.o

fruitystu
10-07-2011, 15:43
Never mind small units, I'm thinking cheap, cheerful, and above all, exceptionally fast character assassins. Seriously, they're I5, and so ridiculously cheap, it doesn't matter if they get their heads kicked in the next turn.

zuriel45
10-07-2011, 16:21
emperor dragons, yes there a expensive points cost but for what u get it awarsome haveing a lvl wizard dragon , imagine that on top of a fulcrum with its 9 wounds and a 3+ ward save

Since (theoretically) the emperor dragons are the huge resin models from forgeworld they will be too big to sit atop the fulcrum (remember model needs to be able to fit on it). Also unbinding is a huge weakness for them too.

I like carnasours... no clue if they're worth the points but they're cool :)

drear
10-07-2011, 16:22
id just bring a big fulcrum, you can use anything as a fulcrum assuming it looks mystical and fun D:

IrishDelinquent
10-07-2011, 16:28
I'm in love with the Bonegrinder Giant. Not only is it a massive model, but it can Thunderstomp even the Exalted Greater Daemons and all the Dragons in the ******* game! Add on to that that it has some mean attacks against all sizes of models (jump up and down on monstrous infantry?! Hells yes! Vomit a breath weapon on man-sized models?! yes please! Throw other monsters into other monsters?! Gods yes!). Also, the Bonegrinder even does more damage when it falls (S8 hits with multiple wounds D6), all for less than the price of 2 giants?! Sign me up.

Also, I love the war mammoth as well. Pretty much the same as the Bonegrinder, except tougher and with more focus on killing big things. Buying a Mumak to convert into one for future games.

Urgat
10-07-2011, 18:19
emperor dragons, yes there a expensive points cost but for what u get it awarsome haveing a lvl wizard dragon , imagine that on top of a fulcrum with its 9 wounds and a 3+ ward save

I can imagine it on top of the fulcrum for 5 seconds, then in pieces on the ground :p



id just bring a big fulcrum, you can use anything as a fulcrum assuming it looks mystical and fun D:

You'll need a really big one, i wonder if the dragon even fits on a temple of skulls...

semper_fi
10-07-2011, 19:07
well did my 1st SoM battle yesterday and have to say i killed the store favorite with just my hpa , store favorite was btw the chimera

kill got me the "chimera killer"title btw ;)

Nubl0
10-07-2011, 19:35
The best ones in my opinion would be the bonegrinder giant and the chaos mammoth. The great spawn seems pretty good as does the spined beast.

Lemonbrick
10-07-2011, 19:36
Lammasu - how cool do they look !

thesheriff
10-07-2011, 19:56
Well, tactically, giants are better than usuall. Stuff into a bag is great against a wizard.

Stegadons are a steal too. an ancient for 215 means that he doesnt risk losing skinks and mosnter reactioning, and hes 60pts cheaper.

And, the lamasu with the death magic charecter sniping and fly. And for 175pts, is a steal.

And, some of the FW greater daemons are cool. And 775pts!

thesheriff

Sexiest_hero
10-07-2011, 19:57
Great Tauros. IT"S GREEEEEAAAAAT!

AlphariusOmegon20
11-07-2011, 01:08
Honestly, I'd have to say rules wise it's a toss up between harpies and the mammoth.

Flaming magical killing blows for 2 pts. Per model is a good buy. The mammoth is just solid across the board.

CaliforniaGamer
11-07-2011, 01:14
Anything even modestly expensive is risky as it can turn around and attack you if unbound. You can also easily lose it on an unbound (1 in 6).

A Mammoth or forbid something crazy like an Emperor Dragon unbound on turn 1 by someone with a wizard spam list is game over.

As such, one cheaper monster like a greater spawn with ASF or a zoat caster is looking to be the best.

Rogzor87
11-07-2011, 01:45
Yeti's get my vote. mhmm.(just because they are yhetee's)

strewart
11-07-2011, 06:59
Did the Coatl make the list in the book?

ArtificerArmour
11-07-2011, 08:35
Fimir balefiend. d6 extra power dice? Yes please!

zuriel45
11-07-2011, 08:42
Fimir balefiend. d6 extra power dice? Yes please!

its not d6 extra power dice, its an instead of rolling one die for channelling, roll 6, however the dice generated this way can only be used by fimir

Tzeentch Lover
11-07-2011, 15:05
The lowly Giant. ;)

"+3 ward save? Get in mah pants!" :evilgrin:

drear
11-07-2011, 15:11
sadly no coatl yet ): but the cocktrice rules could easily be used, its essentially the same creature, without the magic levels o.O

i only realised last night i cant summon monsters using seven sigils..so no i have to choose between all my monsters ):

IrishDelinquent
11-07-2011, 15:12
"+3 ward save? Get in mah pants!" :evilgrin:

Lol, tempted to sig this. Also, while the pants-stuffing is good and all, I prefer rolling squash....+3 ward save gets squeezed like a toothpaste tube.

tyrannustyrannus
11-07-2011, 15:16
I like being able to take Eagles in any army now. They can be upgraded to ASF too!

I like birds, so It will be fun to paint each eagle like a real eagle in its repective habitiat. I'm going to paint two eagles like Harpy Eagles for my Lizardmen Army!

Memnos
11-07-2011, 15:23
I like the Fimir.

Of course, since you just have to cast a 3+ spell to banish it or make it attack whoever it's closest to(Probably your side in the first turn), and that's a cantrip which means every wizard can cast it, I suspect cheap monsters will be the way to go rather than singular expensive ones.

Odin
11-07-2011, 15:45
Rather than start a new thread to ask this one question, can anyone tell me - what base size do the High and Dark Elf Dragons come with? I assume it's a chariot base, or is it something larger?

IcedCrow
11-07-2011, 15:47
I believe its a chariot base. THe manticore came on a chariot base and the dark elf dragon from the pic looks the same.

Algovil
11-07-2011, 15:53
its not d6 extra power dice, its an instead of rolling one die for channelling, roll 6, however the dice generated this way can only be used by fimir

Is that not statistically the same? =)

EDIT: No it is not :P

Confessor_Atol
11-07-2011, 15:55
Rather than start a new thread to ask this one question, can anyone tell me - what base size do the High and Dark Elf Dragons come with? I assume it's a chariot base, or is it something larger?

50 x 100 mm

Odin
11-07-2011, 15:58
Cheers guys.

Will re-base my old Chaos Dragon then, I think.

I still have an old Chaos Lord on a Manticore (Arbaal on Helsnicht's Manticore) on a 40x40 base! That's going to look rather weedy next to the new model I suspect!

GodlessM
11-07-2011, 16:05
Lammasu and Fen Beast seem awesome, and the usual suspects likes Hydras and Aboms are awesome too. Necrosphinx might get time to shine. After reading this thread it would seem the B-Giant and Harpies are awesome too. Luckily I have models for these two :D

OldMaster
11-07-2011, 16:39
From the monsters? I like the Griffon for some reason, it has a lot of nice upgrades.

zuriel45
11-07-2011, 21:19
Is that not statistically the same? =)

EDIT: No it is not :P

haha yep. D6 gurentees at least 1 extra die, six d6 means that you can get zero. (roll 1,2,3,4,5,5 or something) I'm too lazy to do the full set of odds, but the odds of getting 6 extra dice is 1/6^6 instead of 1/6.

Astraeos
11-07-2011, 22:16
I haven't tried one yet, but for me it's the Fimir. Purely because they've been away for so long and I thought they'd never come back!

Crovax20
11-07-2011, 22:29
my cannons like anything big and beefy in points

Trains_Get_Robbed
11-07-2011, 22:30
What kind of base would you put a BoneGrinder/Mammoth on? (They don't come with one, but I also have some cool conversion ideas for mumaks.

decker_cky
11-07-2011, 22:38
What kind of base would you put a BoneGrinder/Mammoth on? (They don't come with one, but I also have some cool conversion ideas for mumaks.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer/Warhammer_Monsters/WARHAMMER-GIANT.html

Looks like a chariot base for the bonegrinder?

Mammoth doesn't have a base, but I assume the Mumak with a little extra width would be big enough. Build the base out of whatever material you want.

Kronos
11-07-2011, 22:40
The Cockatrice, viscous in close combat with a poisoned attacks, good statline.

Good at instantly killing other monsters and characters as a short distance.

And with a breath weapon and fly can make short of a pesky artillery crew.


Just all round good for a reasonable price, so you can take a cockatrice to hunt down other monsters and take a good fighting monster whihc will hopefully be able to move around unhindered too much.

decker_cky
11-07-2011, 22:54
At best the cockatrice has less than a 1/6 chance of killing a monster with shooting (decent chance of wounding many monsters). With only S4, poison is the only real chance to take out a monster, but with only T4 W4, I see them falling in combat to a lot of monsters. They're pretty good, but they're not that great (particularly when spending 200 pts on them).

AngelofSorrow
11-07-2011, 23:03
Gotta go with fenbeasts and their 3+regen.

Rogzor87
11-07-2011, 23:19
I'm actually really liking the smaller monsters in larger units, or maybe the Great Chaos Spawn. I would love to get a model to make that and paint it. It would just be alot of fun.

herald of kairos
11-07-2011, 23:38
gotta say emperor dragon for 750pts and lvl 4 is a steal, it also fits on the eternity stair fulcrum so no need to convert if your lazy, although still intend to convert me a large pile of skulls chest and other arcane trickery for his personal fulcrum

decker_cky
11-07-2011, 23:52
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer/Warhammer_Monsters/WARHAMMER-FIRE-DRAGON.html

How is a model that's 13" long going to fit on any of the plastic fulcrums? Convert one if you want, but emperor dragons aren't going to fit on many fulcrums (to say nothing about being unbound).

kickboxerdog
12-07-2011, 00:05
chaos warhound for 6pts a model and you can add poision attacks for 1point a model they could be good at killing monsters

kickboxerdog
12-07-2011, 00:07
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer/Warhammer_Monsters/WARHAMMER-FIRE-DRAGON.html

How is a model that's 13" long going to fit on any of the plastic fulcrums? Convert one if you want, but emperor dragons aren't going to fit on many fulcrums (to say nothing about being unbound).

the thing is you dont actually have to use that model as a emp dragon, i played a game in store other day and they used the carmine dragon as one looked really cool sat on top a fulcrum,

decker_cky
12-07-2011, 00:42
Carmine dragon is a pretty pathetic emperor dragon. In fact, it's a completely pathetic emperor dragon. But yes, if you just use small stuff as big stuff, room will be aplenty. There's a nifty familiar dragon that would be even easier to fit on fulcrims.

Jack of Blades
12-07-2011, 01:20
I'm going to check out and possibly buy the book today but I can't wait to know - how many gnoblars does a shaggoth cost in SoM, or alternatively how many points less than its WoC incarnation? does it have any upgrades (including weapon upgrades) and if so, what are they and how many gnoblars do they cost each? thanks :p

decker_cky
12-07-2011, 02:36
I'm going to check out and possibly buy the book today but I can't wait to know - how many gnoblars does a shaggoth cost in SoM, or alternatively how many points less than its WoC incarnation? does it have any upgrades (including weapon upgrades) and if so, what are they and how many gnoblars do they cost each? thanks :p

50 pts less. No light armour. Always has frenzy (and never loses it). Immune to lightning magic, but not to lightning from shooting (WLC and ironically Kholek's lightning). GW is marginally cheaper, AHW is less than half of what it used to cost.

Geep
12-07-2011, 02:52
I like the idea of a Green Emperor Dragon with Lvl 4 and the Lore of Life. It's large, good in combat, has one of the better spell lores and- if you do wound it- it regains wounds everytime it casts a spell. Sure it can be unbound, but it still looks fun to me.

Jack of Blades
12-07-2011, 09:39
50 pts less. No light armour. Always has frenzy (and never loses it). Immune to lightning magic, but not to lightning from shooting (WLC and ironically Kholek's lightning). GW is marginally cheaper, AHW is less than half of what it used to cost.

Very appreciated :)

Odin
12-07-2011, 14:17
At best the cockatrice has less than a 1/6 chance of killing a monster with shooting (decent chance of wounding many monsters). With only S4, poison is the only real chance to take out a monster, but with only T4 W4, I see them falling in combat to a lot of monsters. They're pretty good, but they're not that great (particularly when spending 200 pts on them).

I'm thinking two cockatrices working as a team could be effective. Two shots, plus a likely stand-and-shoot third attack when the enemy monster charges, gives a decent chance of rolling a 6 for HKB. Against enemies with I1 or 2, they have a good chance of causing two or three wounds even if they don't kill outright, and the cockatrice's high Initiative and 6 poisoned attacks gives you a good chance of one or two more wounds even in close combat - enough to kill many medium monsters. Let's not forget the scare factor here. Even a 1in6 chance of getting HKB against that Sphinx, Hydra or whatever, might not seem much, but could easily make your opponent think twice about sending it near the cockatrice. That gives you the opportunity to try and control which line of approach enemy monsters use, and to have traps lying in wait.

At least, that's my plan... will see how it works at the weekend hopefully!

Odin
12-07-2011, 14:25
Gotta go with fenbeasts and their 3+regen.

Yeah, they are tempting... I think it's a shame that there's no link with Truthseers and Dark Emissaries - they should enable fenbeasts to re-roll stupidity tests when within 12" or something.

drear
12-07-2011, 14:31
How is a model that's 13" long going to fit on any of the plastic fulcrums? Convert one if you want, but emperor dragons aren't going to fit on many fulcrums (to say nothing about being unbound).

there is no emperor dragon model, the forgeworld dragon is a greater fire dragon.

its not going to take much eitehr to add 2-3 inches of top to a beefy fulcrum like witchfate tor or the skull throne thing.

the encarmine dragon is HUGe in height compared to other dragons , and has a good wingspan. it makes a great emperor dragon.

the forgeworld dragon is so impractical game wise i cant see it being used very often to represent anything.

snottlebocket
12-07-2011, 14:36
there is no emperor dragon model, the forgeworld dragon is a greater fire dragon.

its not going to take much eitehr to add 2-3 inches of top to a beefy fulcrum like witchfate tor or the skull throne thing.

the encarmine dragon is HUGe in height compared to other dragons , and has a good wingspan. it makes a great emperor dragon.

the forgeworld dragon is so impractical game wise i cant see it being used very often to represent anything.

There used to be an emperor dragon model. Not that big compared to today's monsters. Kind of a relative / irrelevant issue. http://www.solegends.com/citdragon/ta6emperordragon.htm

If I recall right, it weighed about a pound though. Practically a solid hunk of lead.

drear
12-07-2011, 14:39
well i stand corrected. but that will definitly fit on a fulcrum Xp

snottlebocket
12-07-2011, 14:40
well i stand corrected. but that will definitly fit on a fulcrum Xp

But just like an emperor dragon should, it will probably cause your fulcrum to collapse if you try to put it on one.

Spiney Norman
12-07-2011, 14:48
I like the Fimir.

Of course, since you just have to cast a 3+ spell to banish it or make it attack whoever it's closest to(Probably your side in the first turn), and that's a cantrip which means every wizard can cast it, I suspect cheap monsters will be the way to go rather than singular expensive ones.

Yes, although its not like the cantrips are going to be that hard to dispel, although I can see Slann spam-casting them will be annoying. It certainly makes me want to bring multiple cheaper monsters rather than one almighty emperor dragon or war mammoth for example.


At best the cockatrice has less than a 1/6 chance of killing a monster with shooting (decent chance of wounding many monsters). With only S4, poison is the only real chance to take out a monster, but with only T4 W4, I see them falling in combat to a lot of monsters. They're pretty good, but they're not that great (particularly when spending 200 pts on them).

I think you're not using the cockatrice right if you're expecting it to wade through monsters every turn. Its got a lot of attacks and with the poison upgrade I can see it being very effective at attacking wizards on fulcrums. They're also NOT 200 pts.

decker_cky
12-07-2011, 16:25
They're also NOT 200 pts.

If you give the cockatrice the upgrades described, that's exactly what they are.

Like I said...they're pretty good, but not the super amazing monsters being described.


Yeah, they are tempting... I think it's a shame that there's no link with Truthseers and Dark Emissaries - they should enable fenbeasts to re-roll stupidity tests when within 12" or something.

You could use the truthseer with lore of life to heal the fenbeast while it's nearby, replicating the old healing ability.

On that note, I wish they'd given a lifebloom effect to dark emissaries that only worked on fenbeasts (alternative lore attribute option or something). I feel that dark emissaries are missing that 'something special,' whereas truthsayers get to always switch to transformation.

Morax
12-07-2011, 16:44
I gotta say the white lions are lookin nice to me, units of 7 on the flanks for 14 WS5, str5 attacks, and they start with a 4+ save. For 112 points its just a steal!

zuriel45
12-07-2011, 17:56
I gotta say the white lions are lookin nice to me, units of 7 on the flanks for 14 WS5, str5 attacks, and they start with a 4+ save. For 112 points its just a steal!

Eh, i feel like they're just a more expensive version of swordmasters, little extra shooting armour but just as dead after a round of close combat...course i am an elf with the option to use swordmasters, not one of them lesser races :p

Ramius4
12-07-2011, 18:42
My personal 'top pick' has to go to units of Pegasi with breath weapons... Yes, I'm serious.

How about 5 Pegasi charging in on your horde of say, Empire Spearmen. Use your breath in combat for 10d6 Strength 4 hits, above and beyond your normal attacks and Stomps. Profit :p All that for 300 points. Hydra, you ain't got nothin' on that... ;)

OldMaster
12-07-2011, 19:54
My personal 'top pick' has to go to units of Pegasi with breath weapons... Yes, I'm serious.

How about 5 Pegasi charging in on your horde of say, Empire Spearmen. Use your breath in combat for 10d6 Strength 4 hits, above and beyond your normal attacks and Stomps. Profit :p All that for 300 points. Hydra, you ain't got nothin' on that... ;)

S2 hits.
=)

Still I get your point.

Tyranno1
12-07-2011, 19:55
I like the Hippogryph. Not even 200pts for a stubborn monster? Sweeeeet! Such a good roadblock.

I love the Taurus too. The -1 too wound is fantastic. Slam it into a S3/4 unit and watch them bounce off it. And its one of the few monsters in the game not to be killed on a 2+ by a cannonball....even if its a 3+ instead. And its wounds can be restored if you have access to the lore of fire.

I really wish I could keep them beyond the storm of magic.

OldMaster
12-07-2011, 19:58
I really wish I could keep them beyond the storm of magic.

Yup...
It's like a dream in a way.
You can have many fancy stuff in a dream, but you can't bring it back with you into real life.

Ramius4
12-07-2011, 20:01
S2 hits.
=)

Still I get your point.

WOW, did I misread that! :p

In my defense, it was last night at 2am when I read that bit :shifty:

hashrat
12-07-2011, 21:52
I think it is nice, that I can now buy all those sexy models, for armies I don't own and still use them.
If nothing else, it gives me a break from painting f'n goblins.
I am not looking forward to starting my Skaven lol.

Hashulaman
13-07-2011, 00:57
I think The bonegrinder and Mammoth are perhaps the most powerful monsters. For one thing they can thunderstomp anything except each other.


By the way, you think people are going to be so anal they refuse to allow a regular dragon or giant to count as an emperor or bongrinder? Not all of us can afford those giant forgeworld models.

someone2040
13-07-2011, 01:20
If you give the cockatrice the upgrades described, that's exactly what they are.

Like I said...they're pretty good, but not the super amazing monsters being described.



You could use the truthseer with lore of life to heal the fenbeast while it's nearby, replicating the old healing ability.

On that note, I wish they'd given a lifebloom effect to dark emissaries that only worked on fenbeasts (alternative lore attribute option or something). I feel that dark emissaries are missing that 'something special,' whereas truthsayers get to always switch to transformation.
Eh, I'm not sure I prefer Transformation anyway. Wyssans Wildform is such a great buff as a signature spell, it's usually the reason you take the Beasts lore in the first place (Other spells are just gravy). Not having access to it is a bit of a damper.
Likewise I think Earthblood is a bit underrated.
So I'm not sure if I like Transformation or not. The one saving grace I think for Transformation is that regardless of whether it gets dispelled or not, the Truthsayer is out in the open on his own anyway.

Also, the reason i think the Fenbeass don't have any links with the Sayer/Emissary is they've basically written out the fact that the Fenbeasts are from Albion swamps. They're basically just generic muckbeasts that anyone from the Jade colleges might make. Personally I'm not fussed too much, I didn't expect Albion links to make it back in (And in fact, Albion is not mentioned specifically at all, not even in the timelines as if it has been written out).

AlphariusOmegon20
13-07-2011, 01:50
I think The bonegrinder and Mammoth are perhaps the most powerful monsters. For one thing they can thunderstomp anything except each other.


By the way, you think people are going to be so anal they refuse to allow a regular dragon or giant to count as an emperor or bongrinder? Not all of us can afford those giant forgeworld models.

I wouldn't have any issue with the smaller models so long as the base they were on was the same size as the bases the FW models were on.

I'm looking more at the footprint of the model rather than it's height.

I am very realistic and realize not everyone can afford those two monstrosities like I can. I have a lot of disposable income.

sulla
13-07-2011, 05:34
Eh, I'm not sure I prefer Transformation anyway. Wyssans Wildform is such a great buff as a signature spell, it's usually the reason you take the Beasts lore in the first place (Other spells are just gravy). Not having access to it is a bit of a damper.
Likewise I think Earthblood is a bit underrated.
I have to agree here. Wyssan's is the gem of beasts, especially for armies that can't get the lore any other way. For my DE, I'd take a truthseer for life lore since you can't get wyssan's. For my beasts, I'd probably want one of the fire casters like a Lammassu or Fimir or daemonic allies for my beasts since they are lacking in ranged damage.

snottlebocket
13-07-2011, 07:17
I wouldn't have any issue with the smaller models so long as the base they were on was the same size as the bases the FW models were on.

I'm looking more at the footprint of the model rather than it's height.


I agree, use any model you like. But some of those creatures have a substantially larger base than the current creature bases and that matters a lot.

JDman
13-07-2011, 09:34
I think The bonegrinder and Mammoth are perhaps the most powerful monsters. For one thing they can thunderstomp anything except each other.


By the way, you think people are going to be so anal they refuse to allow a regular dragon or giant to count as an emperor or bongrinder? Not all of us can afford those giant forgeworld models.

Ultimately I would hope that players would make an attempt to distinguish a normal dragon from an emperor dragon in some kind of way. Not that I wouldnt play someone who used a normal dragon (so long as they used the base).

Emperor dragons, exalted greater demons, the mammoth and the big giant are great opportunities for conversions and creating genuinely unique models that make games of SoM really stand out.

Lord Zarkov
13-07-2011, 12:54
Also, the reason i think the Fenbeass don't have any links with the Sayer/Emissary is they've basically written out the fact that the Fenbeasts are from Albion swamps. They're basically just generic muckbeasts that anyone from the Jade colleges might make. Personally I'm not fussed too much, I didn't expect Albion links to make it back in (And in fact, Albion is not mentioned specifically at all, not even in the timelines as if it has been written out).
Albion is alluded to in the Truthsayer entry, but yeah, not named anywhere :(

The Clairvoyant
13-07-2011, 13:11
I'm playing my first game in a couple of weeks at 3000pts (3750 SoM)

My plan is to take a Lammasu (with tail attack), arachnarok and a zoat. Comes in nicely at exactly 750pts.
Hopefully GW will finecast the old fantasy zoat as i only have 40k ones at the mo.

Hragnar Goreskull
13-07-2011, 16:52
I love all the Forge World models and their rules, my biggest problem is that there is no mention of what their base size should be, and I'm sure its not the standard monster base as per their troop type. That would leave the only three large bases that they have in game, 50mm x 100mm Chariot, 60mm x 100mm Screaming Bell base or the 100mm x 150mm Arachnarok base. Biggest problem, the Arachnarok base is not for sale and would make the most sense for FW's large monsters.

I am sure that if I was to buy any of these models I could find a base that would represent its frontage but it would be nice with a more official ruling given by GW. :skull:

AlphariusOmegon20
13-07-2011, 17:58
I love all the Forge World models and their rules, my biggest problem is that there is no mention of what their base size should be, and I'm sure its not the standard monster base as per their troop type. That would leave the only three large bases that they have in game, 50mm x 100mm Chariot, 60mm x 100mm Screaming Bell base or the 100mm x 150mm Arachnarok base. Biggest problem, the Arachnarok base is not for sale and would make the most sense for FW's large monsters.

I am sure that if I was to buy any of these models I could find a base that would represent its frontage but it would be nice with a more official ruling given by GW. :skull:

The mammoth doesn't come with a base. I'm not sure what base the "bone grinder" comes with. My Gw shop's manager has one, so I'll look at it when they open today.

One of the staff also has a mammoth, so I'll ask him what base size did he use while I'm at it.

Edit: the bone grinder is on a chariot base. The mammoth is 150mm x 200mm

BorderKing
13-07-2011, 18:02
I don't really like the mammoth rules as it's not stubborn, is only LD 5 and has no save, all for 500 points. Also with initative 1 and movement 8, it's not that great. I'd rather have giants then the Mammoth.

Hashulaman
14-07-2011, 07:32
I wouldn't have any issue with the smaller models so long as the base they were on was the same size as the bases the FW models were on.

I'm looking more at the footprint of the model rather than it's height.

I am very realistic and realize not everyone can afford those two monstrosities like I can. I have a lot of disposable income.



And how big is that? I don't exactly know the base sizes for bonegrinders and Emperor Dragons, would making a base out of cardboard be okay if i kept it to scale if it has to have the same size base.


P.S I looked on Forge World and saw no Emperor Dragon model, just fire dragon, Carmine Dragon and Chaos Dragon. There is no bonegrinder giant listing either, its just called a gant. I am pretty sure in the future, there are going to be anal players that claim that GW does not make an actual bonegrinder giant or Emperor Dragon.

snottlebocket
14-07-2011, 13:57
And how big is that? I don't exactly know the base sizes for bonegrinders and Emperor Dragons, would making a base out of cardboard be okay if i kept it to scale if it has to have the same size base.


P.S I looked on Forge World and saw no Emperor Dragon model, just fire dragon, Carmine Dragon and Chaos Dragon. There is no bonegrinder giant listing either, its just called a gant. I am pretty sure in the future, there are going to be anal players that claim that GW does not make an actual bonegrinder giant or Emperor Dragon.


The fire dragon is the one most people consider to be the emperor dragon by merit of sheer size. I'd say it would use about 4-6 arachnarok bases to mount that thing.

Good luck arguing against the bonegrinder, the art is an exact depiction of the forgeworld model. (goes for more FW monsters in the book)

AlphariusOmegon20
14-07-2011, 14:39
And how big is that? I don't exactly know the base sizes for bonegrinders and Emperor Dragons, would making a base out of cardboard be okay if i kept it to scale if it has to have the same size base.


P.S I looked on Forge World and saw no Emperor Dragon model, just fire dragon, Carmine Dragon and Chaos Dragon. There is no bonegrinder giant listing either, its just called a gant. I am pretty sure in the future, there are going to be anal players that claim that GW does not make an actual bonegrinder giant or Emperor Dragon.

The FW Bonegrinder I've seen was on a Chariot base and that makes some sense to me, though I'd personally go for a bigger base, say 100mm X 100mm.

The Mammoth we have at our local GW is on a 150mm X 200mm base. That makes sense to me also, though personally, I'd have done a 200mm X 200mm one to give a bit more room for some base embellishment.

CarlostheCraven
14-07-2011, 14:58
Hi

I love the Bone Grinder Giant and the Emperor Dragon (and have a painted Greater Fire Dragon to use) - but they have a serious weakness - Initiative 1. There are now even more I-test or be removed spells, which means that my $200+ model dies on a 2+. This is lame - and I am strongly advocating for some house rules on all test or die spells.

Cheers,
Nate

decker_cky
14-07-2011, 19:01
Hi

I love the Bone Grinder Giant and the Emperor Dragon (and have a painted Greater Fire Dragon to use) - but they have a serious weakness - Initiative 1. There are now even more I-test or be removed spells, which means that my $200+ model dies on a 2+. This is lame - and I am strongly advocating for some house rules on all test or die spells.

Cheers,
Nate

Pay 150 extra points like a higher initiative model of the same stats and the houserule might make sense. All the initiative 1 monsters are extremely cheap pointswise because they can easily be destroyed by a single spell.

fruitystu
14-07-2011, 19:05
I really rate the Cocktrice, mostly for the ability to put on the old Austin Power's Eyebrows and turn anything into a 'Orange Sher-Bert'

Azrothan
14-07-2011, 19:11
There are no specific models mentioned for any of the new cool toys, nor any base sizes, so why aren't we allowed to use whatever similar monster model we have?
Like a Giant for the Bonegrinder Giant, a Dragon for the Emperor Dragon, etc.
It was always like that in 4ed in regards to dragons - you just stated what kind it was. Same with HE - they only have 1 model but several types. What's changed?

snottlebocket
14-07-2011, 19:18
There are no specific models mentioned for any of the new cool toys, nor any base sizes, so why aren't we allowed to use whatever similar monster model we have?
Like a Giant for the Bonegrinder Giant, a Dragon for the Emperor Dragon, etc.
It was always like that in 4ed in regards to dragons - you just stated what kind it was. Same with HE - they only have 1 model but several types. What's changed?

Mostly because it's a copout. There's no models mentioned but the bonegrinder, great spawn, spined beast, mammoth, greater demons and emperor dragon are all very clearly the forgeworld models.

Not only does the art match the models exactly, in some cases even the rules are nearly identical to the forgeworld rules with a few tweaks. And Forgeworld supplies substantially larger bases.

I don't care if you use a shiny nickel as a war mammoth but you're nuts if you think it should be on a 50mm base.

DivineVisitor
14-07-2011, 21:15
Mostly because it's a copout. There's no models mentioned but the bonegrinder, great spawn, spined beast, mammoth, greater demons and emperor dragon are all very clearly the forgeworld models.

Not only does the art match the models exactly, in some cases even the rules are nearly identical to the forgeworld rules with a few tweaks. And Forgeworld supplies substantially larger bases.

I don't care if you use a shiny nickel as a war mammoth but you're nuts if you think it should be on a 50mm base.

Maybe placing said beasts on smaller bases than their little kin is pushing your luck but i wouldn't mind as long as it's on at least the same base size. As noted earlier the Bonegrinder Giant seems to have the same base size as the normal Giant and the Great Fire Dragon mostly takes up so much room due to it's pose, and it doesn't even come with a base as far as i know, the one shown is a scenic base for display purposes.

Azrothan
14-07-2011, 21:18
I don't care if you use a shiny nickel as a war mammoth but you're nuts if you think it should be on a 50mm base.

Well that's the point. We don't even know what they're supposed to be. I can imagine a 150x50 mm base for all bigger monsters, because that's what is used for almost every new big monster (larger than cockatrice).
Is that an acceptable size? And who decides what's acceptable?:eyebrows:

If GW actually said something to indicate size of base and model, or that they are, indeed, the FW models - we wouldn't have a problem. But they didn't, so we're all in the dark.:shifty:

Thommy H
14-07-2011, 21:27
Well that's the point. We don't even know what they're supposed to be.

Yes you do. It's very obvious from the pictures and the context in each and every supposedly ambiguous case. It just isn't explicitly spelt out because sometimes, in life, you are actually required to engage your brain to make a decision about something.

Hashulaman
14-07-2011, 21:41
I use the LoTR Mamuk for my Chaos war mammoth, and I use a specially made square base that surrounds the LoTR base. I think everyone agrees that the Square base the size of the LoTR one is an acceptable size.

Rogzor87
14-07-2011, 23:56
I guess I'll have to go run out and buy larger bases and FW models just so I can play you guys. Goodluck with me doing that.

Untill they actually make it to where you have to use set base-sizes/models for these new monsters I'll use whatever I got thats acceptable.

snottlebocket
15-07-2011, 01:11
Well that's the point. We don't even know what they're supposed to be. I can imagine a 150x50 mm base for all bigger monsters, because that's what is used for almost every new big monster (larger than cockatrice).
Is that an acceptable size? And who decides what's acceptable?:eyebrows:

If GW actually said something to indicate size of base and model, or that they are, indeed, the FW models - we wouldn't have a problem. But they didn't, so we're all in the dark.:shifty:

Meh, I still say they're the forgeworld models beyond a shadow of a doubt. The art matches them exactly and a lot of them actually use the rules forgeworld wrote. (with some minor adjustments)

As such it seems fair to use bases that actually fit the model. and in a lot of cases that's larger than 150x50mm.

AlphariusOmegon20
15-07-2011, 02:29
The base size I cited for the Mammoth just barely allows the model enough area to be accurate in base size.

I'd also like to point out that the FW bloodthirster is on a 100 x 100 base and that is the model intended to represent the exalted bloodthirsty in the book.

It only makes sense the mammoth would have a bigger base than that due to it's largest of monsters rule.

I have no explanation for the FW bonegrinder's base size though. Seems it should be bigger than a chariot base though, because the Mammoth's is larger than any other base made.

Shadowsinner
15-07-2011, 04:00
A massive unit of ambushing sabretusks! paired with a massive unit of war lions!

snottlebocket
15-07-2011, 08:53
Maybe placing said beasts on smaller bases than their little kin is pushing your luck but i wouldn't mind as long as it's on at least the same base size. As noted earlier the Bonegrinder Giant seems to have the same base size as the normal Giant and the Great Fire Dragon mostly takes up so much room due to it's pose, and it doesn't even come with a base as far as i know, the one shown is a scenic base for display purposes.

Obviously we don't know what base size they need, but if it doesn't fit the base it's obviously too small. You'll never get the the fire dragon, greater demons, mammoth and chaos beasts on a giant base. The greater demons are supplied with a 100 by 100 for instance.

The fire dragon might be shown on the a decorative base but it's barely big enough to hold the creature.

Morkash
15-07-2011, 09:05
Many people will use "normal" Dragons/Giants for Bonegrinder/Emperor ones, personally that would just feel wrong to me. Sure, 10 years ago I used a shoe box as a super heavy Baneblade, but nowadays I could not imagine that. The Arachnarok showed how big GW can go with bases, and FW can go even larger, as various people explained with the Fire Dragon (or the Landship, or the mammoth)
But using normal giants as Bonegrinders and so on would be like using the Gigantic Spider as Arachnarok, a Minotaur as Ghorgon and so on. I'd not refusing playing against such things (I'd be freaking happy about playing Som! :D), but personally, I'd not use them.

The Heresy Dragon would be another nice alternative for an Emperor Dragon as well as some apparently gigantic dragon reveiled by CMON these days. For Bonegrinders...I think I'd go with the Marauder Giant, what he lacks in size he makes up with awesomeness. He fits on the giant's base only with force, so a 60x100 (Screaming Bell) should be sufficient.

Azrothan
15-07-2011, 10:08
Meh, I still say they're the forgeworld models beyond a shadow of a doubt. The art matches them exactly and a lot of them actually use the rules forgeworld wrote. (with some minor adjustments)

As such it seems fair to use bases that actually fit the model. and in a lot of cases that's larger than 150x50mm.


Yes you do. It's very obvious from the pictures and the context in each and every supposedly ambiguous case. It just isn't explicitly spelt out because sometimes, in life, you are actually required to engage your brain to make a decision about something.
What's with the attitude Thommy H?

Looking at the artwork:
The Chimera kind of looks like the new model.
The Manticore barely resembles the new model.
The Hydra doesn't really look anything like the model.
Ok, so moving on to the supposed "FW" models:
Bonegrinder Giant looks exactly like the FW Giant.
Chaos War Mammoth looks a lot like the FW model, but doesn't have the armour on the head nor visible large patches that's missing fur. It just looks like a Mammoth...
Chaos Spawn looks like the FW model, but it doesn't state which is show in the picture (normal or great).
Exalted Greater Daemons do not look like the FW models. Wrong axes, faces, staffs, etc. The look as much like the normal GDs as the FW models. How do you respond to that?
Dragons - we have a picture that doesn't resemble any recent dragon by GW.
Chaos Dragon doesn't look like the FW Chaos Dragon (that clearly shows it's head and neck have been ripped apart before twisted into separate heads and necks). Nor does it say which dragon is in the picture (emperor or just a chaos dragon).
Giant Spined Chaos Beast looks very similar to the FW model.

So 3-4 look like the FW models, but others (Exalted GDs, all the different dragons) don't look like them at all (save for tzeentch, but he looks like the normal GD as well). Yet you say this is "very obvious from the pictures" and "beyond the shadow of a doubt" that these are the FW models. Good luck with that.:eyebrows:
"You can't use that as an Emperor Dragon because it's not the FW Great Fire Dragon model that it's supposed to be. Look at the artwork!" *crickets*

Scythe
15-07-2011, 10:38
Many people will use "normal" Dragons/Giants for Bonegrinder/Emperor ones, personally that would just feel wrong to me. Sure, 10 years ago I used a shoe box as a super heavy Baneblade, but nowadays I could not imagine that. The Arachnarok showed how big GW can go with bases, and FW can go even larger, as various people explained with the Fire Dragon (or the Landship, or the mammoth)
But using normal giants as Bonegrinders and so on would be like using the Gigantic Spider as Arachnarok, a Minotaur as Ghorgon and so on. I'd not refusing playing against such things (I'd be freaking happy about playing Som! :D), but personally, I'd not use them.


I agree. While I would have used a basic dragon for an emperor dragon ten years ago, there are good alternatives now. I can't bring myself to field an emperor dragon without using the huge forgeworld fire dragon, or anything of similar size. Same with using a 'normal' greater daemon as exalted daemon, or a normal sized giant as bonegrinder. It would just look wrong, and work confusing if an opponent would use the same model with different rules.

Hellebore
15-07-2011, 10:44
I reckon this would fit the bill:
http://www.heresyminiatures.com/dragon.htm

Hellebore

snottlebocket
15-07-2011, 10:57
I reckon this would fit the bill:
http://www.heresyminiatures.com/dragon.htm

Hellebore

McFarlane toys also has some six series worth of appropriately sized dragon toys that have been used as oversized warhammer dragons in the past by people.

Spiney Norman
15-07-2011, 11:03
What's with the attitude Thommy H?

Looking at the artwork:
The Chimera kind of looks like the new model.
The Manticore barely resembles the new model.
The Hydra doesn't really look anything like the model.
Ok, so moving on to the supposed "FW" models:
Bonegrinder Giant looks exactly like the FW Giant.
Chaos War Mammoth looks a lot like the FW model, but doesn't have the armour on the head nor visible large patches that's missing fur. It just looks like a Mammoth...
Chaos Spawn looks like the FW model, but it doesn't state which is show in the picture (normal or great).
Exalted Greater Daemons do not look like the FW models. Wrong axes, faces, staffs, etc. The look as much like the normal GDs as the FW models. How do you respond to that?
Dragons - we have a picture that doesn't resemble any recent dragon by GW.
Chaos Dragon doesn't look like the FW Chaos Dragon (that clearly shows it's head and neck have been ripped apart before twisted into separate heads and necks). Nor does it say which dragon is in the picture (emperor or just a chaos dragon).
Giant Spined Chaos Beast looks very similar to the FW model.

So 3-4 look like the FW models, but others (Exalted GDs, all the different dragons) don't look like them at all (save for tzeentch, but he looks like the normal GD as well). Yet you say this is "very obvious from the pictures" and "beyond the shadow of a doubt" that these are the FW models. Good luck with that.:eyebrows:
"You can't use that as an Emperor Dragon because it's not the FW Great Fire Dragon model that it's supposed to be. Look at the artwork!" *crickets*

I don't really see people being that anal about WYSIWYG in friendly games, and I kind of doubt people will be organising official SoM tournies, how about you just discuss it with your opponent before the game. A small degree of "counts as" is ok IMHO, so I'd be happy enough to let someone use their LotR mumak as a mammoth or their citadel GD as an exalted if they wanted to, I'd also be ok with a regular giant counting as a bonegrinder as long as we were clear what each thing was.

However try convincing me that your warhawk rider is an exalted lord of change and I wouldn't be so understanding.

DivineVisitor
15-07-2011, 11:03
I reckon this would fit the bill:
http://www.heresyminiatures.com/dragon.htm

Hellebore

Got one pre-ordered :D

I reckon he would fit on a 100x100 sized base, the same as the Exalted Bloodthirster if what was mentioned earlier by AlphariusOmegon20 was correct which i think should be fine for an Emperor Dragon.

Spiney Norman
15-07-2011, 11:09
Got one pre-ordered :D

I reckon he would fit on a 100x100 sized base, the same as the Exalted Bloodthirster if what was mentioned earlier by AlphariusOmegon20 was correct which i think should be fine for an Emperor Dragon.

I much prefer the FW carmine dragon, the tail on the heresy one is a little wierd, the barbed "devil point" just looks odd on an animal and the monumentally oversized spikes about half way down the tail also look way out of place. The wings also look a little oddly shaped but that could just be the camera angle.

snottlebocket
15-07-2011, 12:06
I reckon this would fit the bill:
http://www.heresyminiatures.com/dragon.htm

Hellebore

Geez, they got a plan for paying in installments. Where is this hobby going... :rolleyes:

Hellebore
15-07-2011, 12:13
Geez, they got a plan for paying in installments. Where is this hobby going... :rolleyes:

lol. You know FW might sell more models if they had one. The Manta wouldn't look so bad if you paid it off in installments of $100 a month...

Hellebore

Urgat
15-07-2011, 12:29
I much prefer the FW carmine dragon, the tail on the heresy one is a little wierd, the barbed "devil point" just looks odd on an animal and the monumentally oversized spikes about half way down the tail also look way out of place. The wings also look a little oddly shaped but that could just be the camera angle.

I agree with you regarding the devil point (always hated those anyway, and on devils too :p), but I quite like the large spikes, in fact :)

AngelofSorrow
15-07-2011, 12:46
The giant spawn, emperor dragon, bonegrinder giant, mammoth, exalted GD, and giant spined chaos beast are clearly the forgeworld models. My gaming group would not accept anything less. Or at least another similarly sized model.

GodlessM
15-07-2011, 12:49
How big is the Great Spawn model from FW? Want to convert one but want to get the size right.

drear
15-07-2011, 13:00
i cannot see what the issue is with models ..

i know my solution is to just model 3 distinct types of dragon. im using the fellbeast as a young storm dragon, and the new black dragon as an forest emporer dragon, because the size diffrence is obvious in game between the two, and one looks very smooth and new, whilst the new black dragon looks very old and gnarled.

for the lucky people who own the greater fire dragon, more power to you. but it was created as a display peice. its massive, and seems very very awkward to base. it was never designed with gaming in mind.
whereas the GW dragons and the encarmine dragon have all been made moderatly sizable enough to be played with.

Azrothan
15-07-2011, 16:39
The giant spawn, emperor dragon, bonegrinder giant, mammoth, exalted GD, and giant spined chaos beast are clearly the forgeworld models. My gaming group would not accept anything less. Or at least another similarly sized model.

How are those "clearly the forgeworld models" when they don't look anything like the pictures. Honestly. :wtf:

AngelofSorrow
15-07-2011, 16:55
How are those "clearly the forgeworld models" when they don't look anything like the pictures. Honestly. :wtf:

The intention is clear. I'm surprised people don't see it.

Avian
15-07-2011, 17:06
They provide rules for an extra large Bloodthirster while Forge World sells a model of an extra large Bloodthirster. Anyone trying to claim they TRULY believe this to be a coincidence should be prepared to have their nose grow two feet longer.

decker_cky
15-07-2011, 17:45
Ultraforge sells appropriate models for Bonebreaker Giants, Emperor Dragons and Exalted Greater Daemons too.

http://www.ultraforgeminiatures.com/

For the counts as....it mostly isn't a problem, except for any monster that's a wizard. Emperor dragons are not intended for fulcrims, nor are the exalted greater daemons. Ban that and their use is much more acceptable. It still has the problem of looking silly, but as least it deals with the balance issue.

Azrothan
15-07-2011, 23:35
For the counts as....it mostly isn't a problem, except for any monster that's a wizard. Emperor dragons are not intended for fulcrims, nor are the exalted greater daemons. Ban that and their use is much more acceptable. It still has the problem of looking silly, but as least it deals with the balance issue.

Emperor dragons and Exalted GDs not meant for Fulcrums?
So not only do we not know the base size of the creatures, nor how large we should convert them (cause it does not say that it needs to be the FW models) - but now you want to rule them out from fulcrums that can be whatever building you see fit (and easily have room for one of these creatures)?

There sure seems to be a lot of tension regarding these bigger beasties...

EDMM
15-07-2011, 23:49
And a lot of goofy assumptions.

DivineVisitor
16-07-2011, 00:09
I much prefer the FW carmine dragon, the tail on the heresy one is a little wierd, the barbed "devil point" just looks odd on an animal and the monumentally oversized spikes about half way down the tail also look way out of place. The wings also look a little oddly shaped but that could just be the camera angle.

*shrugs*

To each their own, i think the Heresy Dragon is a work of art and threw my money at it within a minute of clicking on the page last year. Any supposed problems such as the tail's end and the large spikes are a simple fix to convert out.
The Carmine Dragon from FW interested me at first glance before i saw it looked to be 'surfing' with it's pose, has little in the way of muscles to power it's wings (they may aswell be tacked on, take them off and you wouldn't notice there gone) and im not a fan of the scales going down the centre of its back. Also it's no Emperor Dragon, the Heresy beast is about 30cm tall with a wingspan of 40cm, it will be well deserving of the title Emperor Dragon.

As for such beasts going on Fulcrums, il just let my cannons deal with them :evilgrin:

snottlebocket
16-07-2011, 09:46
How big is the Great Spawn model from FW? Want to convert one but want to get the size right.

They have pictures of it next to an old metal imperial hero. Looks to be somewhere between a stegadon and an arachnarok.

soultaker
16-07-2011, 15:58
I'm thinking two cockatrices working as a team could be effective. Two shots, plus a likely stand-and-shoot third attack when the enemy monster charges, gives a decent chance of rolling a 6 for HKB. Against enemies with I1 or 2, they have a good chance of causing two or three wounds even if they don't kill outright, and the cockatrice's high Initiative and 6 poisoned attacks gives you a good chance of one or two more wounds even in close combat - enough to kill many medium monsters. Let's not forget the scare factor here. Even a 1in6 chance of getting HKB against that Sphinx, Hydra or whatever, might not seem much, but could easily make your opponent think twice about sending it near the cockatrice. That gives you the opportunity to try and control which line of approach enemy monsters use, and to have traps lying in wait.

At least, that's my plan... will see how it works at the weekend hopefully!

I suggest also taking wyssans weighted dice to turn 1s into 6s for the turn, better odds of hitting and better odds of HKBing

theDarkGeneral
16-07-2011, 19:09
I'm loving the fact that i can dust off my old Fimir and Zoat models (need to put them on newer bases) and use them as Chaos Allies of old! Thus far the Chimera, Manticore, Dragons and Exalted Greater Daemons look VERY useful! I think i'll have to pick up a Dark Emissary as well as a couple new Cockatrices (to go with my 3 older ones), and at least 1 Lamasu and Great Taurus...now to work on the storyline as to which monsters/characters are joining my Beastmen, my Daemons or my Warriors of Chaos! :evilgrin: