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RanaldLoec
10-07-2011, 16:15
Ok thus seems clear I could be wrong.

pg32 of SoM

cataclysm spells can never be cast with irresistible force - a wizard must always meet the casting value.

end quotes

playing my first test game my high elve opponent stated

army book trumps rule book.
Then went on to insist Teclis casts cataclysm spells with IF on any double.

I wasn't in the mood to argue I just pointed out Teclis still needs to meet the casting value unless he rolls double 6 which he didnt. :D

So ladies and gentleman

1) Yes, An army book item or rule allows cataclysm spells to be cast with IF. as army book trumps rule book.

Or

2) No, cataclysm spells can't be cast with IF as per the rule book.

Yrrdead
10-07-2011, 16:24
[...]On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a Warhammer Armies book. Where this occurs the rule printed in the Warhammer Armies book always takes precedence.
Emphasis added is mine.

Unless SoM includes this AB > RB paragraph them I'm afraid that it doesn't. I don't have the book so I can't be sure.

RanaldLoec
10-07-2011, 16:30
The SoM book doesn't contain that rule.

Yrrdead
10-07-2011, 16:33
Then I would conclude that ,exactly as SoM states, Cataclysm spells can't be cast with IF.

As the AB > RB clause is very specific to apply only to the Warhammer rule book, not all rule books.

decker_cky
10-07-2011, 16:38
There's no IF for Cataclysm spells ever under any circumstance.

RanaldLoec
10-07-2011, 16:41
As I thought, but it never hurts to double check.

On a non rules front I think its a nice balancing act.

Yes cataclysm spells are powerful but require allot of dice and can be dispelled by dispel dice.

b4z
10-07-2011, 20:49
If Teclis [and Book of Hoeth] stated something like... 'the spell is automatically cast, and with irresistable force' then there would be more grounds to argue...

But by the wording in the High Elves FAQ 1.4...

Page 66 – Teclis, High Loremaster
"Any spell cast by Teclis will be cast with irresistible force on any successful casting roll that is a double,
however it will only be considered a miscast if the roll includes a double 6.”

Page 102 – Book of Hoeth
“Any spell cast by the bearer will be cast with irresistible force on any successful casting roll which is a double,
however it will only be considered a miscast if the roll includes a double 6.”

It is clear that Teclis and Book of Hoeth are not effective at all with regards to Cataclysm spells.
And your friend had no grounds on which to argue that they are.

Since as you have rightly quoted... P.32 of Storm of Magic

"Cataclysm spells can never be cast with irresistible force"

So Teclis and Book of Hoeth Archmages still need to meet the Casting Values.

Lord Zarkov
10-07-2011, 21:54
It's specific > general, if you follow that you'll almost never go wrong.

so

Teclis IF < Cataclysm spells can't be IF'd (more specific) < Arabyan Puzzle box giving IF with Cataclysm spells (even more specific)

The bearded one
10-07-2011, 22:04
If Teclis [and Book of Hoeth] stated something like... 'the spell is automatically cast, and with irresistable force' then there would be more grounds to argue...

But by the wording in the High Elves FAQ 1.4...

Page 66 – Teclis, High Loremaster
"Any spell cast by Teclis will be cast with irresistible force on any successful casting roll that is a double,
however it will only be considered a miscast if the roll includes a double 6.”

Page 102 – Book of Hoeth
“Any spell cast by the bearer will be cast with irresistible force on any successful casting roll which is a double,
however it will only be considered a miscast if the roll includes a double 6.”

It is clear that Teclis and Book of Hoeth are not effective at all with regards to Cataclysm spells.
And your friend had no grounds on which to argue that they are.

Since as you have rightly quoted... P.32 of Storm of Magic

"Cataclysm spells can never be cast with irresistible force"

So Teclis and Book of Hoeth Archmages still need to meet the Casting Values.

Indeed, this was the first thing I thought of when reading the first post.

Teclis has to make the casting value either way, with normal spells and with cataclysm spells, wether it is irresistible or... resistible. According to the above FAQ Teclis can only cast his spells with irresistible force if he makes the casting value (or rolls double 6, but with cataclysm spells that doesn't work)

He always has to make the casting value. The issue lies with if Teclis' armybook rule allows him to still cast a cataclysm spell irresistibly (provided if he rolls a double and makes the casting value), as we do not know wether the high elf armybook or the storm of magic book takes precedence. In a sense the SoM book is a BRB for SoM games, but on the other hand it makes changes and trumps BRB rules in the same way as an armybook. For the sake of balance alone I'd follow the SoM book. Also I despise elves.

CaliforniaGamer
11-07-2011, 00:10
There's no IF for Cataclysm spells ever under any circumstance.

this. Its crystal clear. Teclis, book of hoeth, powerscroll can never ever ever IF Cataclysm spells (as well as anyone else).

Lord Zarkov
11-07-2011, 00:16
this. Its crystal clear. Teclis, book of hoeth, powerscroll can never ever ever IF Cataclysm spells (as well as anyone else).
+1, with the specific exception of the Arabyan Puzzle Box.
Also note GW could in the future release more magic items that can IF Cataclysm spells, but they'd have to specifically say so (like the Puzzle Box).

TrojanWolf
11-07-2011, 06:02
It's also worth noting that even if you fail to meet the casting value, you can still miscast a cataclysm spell if you roll a double six.

You really did want Teclis to roll that double six, and miss the casting value. No cast, ignore first miscast, take cataclysm miscast! :D