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Demoulius
11-07-2011, 22:44
Hello,

First list i tried to make for Empire. Can you guys help me abit and tell me if its any good? Im a rather big noob at fantasy im afraid...

warrior priest with GW, armor of meteoric iron and dawn stone
lvl 2 battle wizard with ironcurse icon
20 greatswords with full command
21 halberdiers with full command
21 halberdiers with full command
great cannon
mortar
a detachment of 10 handgunners (or bowmen, not yet decided)

24.9% in heroes
33% in core
40.5% in special

16 points left to spend.

the handgunner i will attach to a unit (probably the greatswords or a unit of halberdiers on my flank. the wizard will join a unit of halberdiers and the WP will join the greatswords.

not yet decided on the school for the wizard, was thinking either lore of light in hopes i get some supportive spells or the lore of beasts to buff up my little halberdiers so they can actually dish out pain like they are real men :evilgrin:

Idea was basicly to sit back with the artillary (duh) and force my opponent to come to me. Handgunners would be set up so they can fire when stuff gets close and can give a charge reaction to help their parent unit when it gets fired at. the blobs of halberdiers will cover the flanks and the greatswords il try to send to the nasties thing on the board :D

Does it seem viable?

Nykster
12-07-2011, 04:25
I think you need to make more use of the detachments.

I myself have little experience playing empire, but their detachment ability is fantastic.

Keep the great swords, and the heroes as they are, but take one unit of 30 halbrediers, and use the rest to make detachments for the great swords and the halbrediers.

I would take the handgunners as a unit, not a detachment, then give them a marksman and a long rifle. This is great for taking out musicians and banner carriers and the like making large squads much weaker with one simple shot.

Demoulius
12-07-2011, 11:50
Hmmm that doesent sound bad either :rolleyes:

How would i deploy the unit? as a horde? 6x5? 7x4with the excess in the 5th rank?

like the idea of small detachments running around covering the bigger unit :) what unit should i take to help cover their flanks? swordsmen? durable units (relativly) with a good WS. or should i take the guys with 2 hand weapons? (cant recall their names and at work so no armybook on hand :cries: )

I can certainly see the many attacks making the flank charge extra nasty :evilgrin: or should i keep them halberdiers as well? the S4 is something of a needed feature against most armies i feel....

dwelf
12-07-2011, 12:49
nice army liist empire have always been a favourite of mine

Gazak Blacktoof
12-07-2011, 13:04
The problem with taking lots of detachments is that they give up victory points easily and also reduce the number of placements you make during deployment. In such a small game deployment probably isn't a big issue, but in larger games you need to make sure you get the most favourable match-ups.

If are going to take combat detachments I would recommend halberdiers or free company militia. You want your detachments to do some killing and because the enemy wont get to make supporting attacks to their flanks you don't need to equip them defensively. There are only a few situations where the Ws boost and the ward save will really make more of a difference than the bonus strength or attacks.

Finally, you cannot snipe unit standard bearers or musicians, see pages 94 and 95 of the rulebook under the headings "Standard Bearers and Casualties" and "Musicians and Casualties" respectively. You can, of course, snipe champions and characters.

Morax
12-07-2011, 13:28
Great list to start the Empire with. I've been playing them for years and they have never disappointed. From my experience the Empire is all about a pregame plan and achieving the proper balance of boots on the ground and warmachines. Too many Warmachines and you will have no one left to mop up, nor will you have enough to protect the machines from light troops. Too many boots and you will be overpowered by higher quality troops that you just cannot stand toe to toe with.

At 1k your list looks pretty spot on. The cannon is one of my only concerns. At this point value it may not have a whole lot of potential targets. High armor save units are expensive points wise and at 1k you will tend to see them kept small, in the range of 5-10 or so. Monsters are almost non existant at 1k as on the cheep they are close to 200 points a piece. The odd cannon snipe of a general/bsb therefor is the only reason to keep it around and you may find that a second mortar would be more of a boon then the cannon.

If you do swap the cannon out for the mortar take the extra 25 points and just grab more halberdiers. Two mortars will whittle down incomming blocks of infantry and your numerical superiority will really begin to show.

A note on the empire and magical lores. The empire has three choices to go lore hunting; character sniping (death), adding more blasting power (fire), and buffing lack luster troops to shine with the best (Light/Life/Beasts). The most common take on magic and the empire is the third as it is probably where the empire needs the most help. At low points beasts or life will be the most effective way of doing this as you will not be able to afford multiple casters to make sure you get the spells you are looking to get. Personally I usually go with Life as that lore is chocked full of epic win. Beasts is another strong lore for the empire as the signature spell makes our units soo much better its scary. If you would like I can talk about the other styles of magic casting but it seems you want to go with buffing units and that may be best as it helps with the learning curve quite a lot with the empire and new players. Just be careful not to rely too heavily on that mage as it can all go wrong with one bad roll of the dice.

Demoulius
12-07-2011, 19:57
I did a few test runs a few months back. Back then I tried out a light wizard but tbh found that his perfermance was heavily depandant on getting the right spell out :cries:

Was about to give beasts a try when my army case was nicked :mad: the spells the beast lore has are very nice, making the state troops nice from only 'meh' ;)

not to sure on shields for my troops though...im small games I wont even consider them...are they usefull in bigger games? For example giving a horde of 30-40 halberdiers shields so they benefit from an increased save? Still only 5+ but its better then nothing :)

Gazak Blacktoof
12-07-2011, 21:31
I think it can be useful on spearmen as they benefit from it in combat, reducing opposing combat resolution. On the halberdiers, no, they can only use it at range, so you might as well just have more of them.

Demoulius
14-07-2011, 12:07
Good call on those spears :) dident catch the point that they are 1 handed weapons (mostly because they arent on the models :confused: )

The cannon is in because in the few games that ive played at 1000 poiints ive faced a monster every time. Stegadons, hydra etc. Every player ive faced has played with one :mad:

Local players tend to include monsters whenever they can....So i intend to bring the anit-monster gun :evilgrin:

Mortar, while nice; doesent hurt monsters but can hurt infantry. So i got one mortar and one cannon so i can threaten both :cool:

Im not to sure if i should devide my state troopers in 1 blob of 30 and make the rest detachments. Thinking about it I think it will lower their survivability (only 1 unit has numbers) and I will lose the risk of my troops routing very fast :( (after all, its not like individual strength of the state troopers is the empires biggest strength)

Demoulius
19-07-2011, 12:12
Should have a chance at a game soon :)

In the meantime im looking at what additions I should add to make this list 1500 points :angel:

I was thinking of adding a cheap general (so I free up an extra banner) and a battlestandard. Anything else that is a must? :)

bigbear bailey
19-07-2011, 14:01
People knock them but Empire knights are bad ass... I would think about adding 2 units of 5 for warmachine killings and flank charges.

That and people will try to kill them with EVERYTHING they have for some reason. I guess the 1+ save makes you want to beat it or something

Demoulius
19-07-2011, 18:30
Was able to play with some knights last weekend actually, only brought 500 ppoints. had 5 knights with great weapons joined by a general with mundane armour. They charged a unit of rat ogres with lord on rat ogre, won combat and overran them :D

Demoulius
19-07-2011, 19:39
Did a little fiddling around with my army list and came up with this for 1500 pts :)

general, full plate, shield, barded steed and sword of might - 131 pts
arch lector, AOMI, dawn stone, GW - 191 pts
captain, BSB, full plate, barded steed, shrieking blade - 107 pts
lvl 2 beast wizard with ironcurse icon - 105 pts
34 halberdiers, full command (BSB and wizard join this unit) - 190 pts
20 halberdiers, full command - 120 pts
7 knights (GW) with musician (general goes here) - 169 pts
20 great swords, full command (arch lector goes here) - 230 pts
great cannon - 100 pts
mortar - 75 pts

also got a detachment of 10 handgunners (or crossbowmen) not to sure what to do with them though. 80 pts

1498 points :) basic idea is that I hang back and soften my opponent up abit. Flank with the knights with added general and keep my units close together so i can cover my flanks properly :D dont got much in the ways of ranged firepower though...Perhaps its more wise to drop the handgunners/crossbowmen for a second mortar?

Thoughts? :)

Morax
20-07-2011, 19:41
Well if you field the 10 handgunners, make them stand alone, not a detatchment. That way you can leave them in the back to protect the big guns while the rest of the troops go off and kill stuff.

If you intend on swaping them out for a mortar you would then be well served with taking a bare bones engineer for the artillery. His ability to give out a reroll is invaluable for keeping those guns going and with 3 possible chances at rolling a miss fire he should be busy just about every turn.

The BSB needs to be on foot if he is going to survive at 1500 points. The ammount of shooting at this level can be pretty intense and the first target they need to kill inorder for it to be effective is your bsb. Without his "look out sir" roll he is going to be in trouble and fast. Protecting him is rather tricky with the AOMI+dawn stone combo taken up by the arch lector but not to worry there are still ways to get it done. The first is to give him full plate and the enchanted shield. This is currently up for debate as to weither or not it is legal in the current rule set. I lean on the side of no but it should be as the rule that prevents him is old and out of date. Most lean on the side of yes as it would be a more current interpretation. Easy enough to ask your local gaming group. The second way to protect him is the Armor of Silvered Steel. This will make him cost more points but still gets the job done. Also doesn't start the rules lawyers screaming too.

You might want to consider droping a knight or two to fit the Banner of Eternal Flame in. Monsters get scared of str5 flaming attacks quickly and with a unit of 5 plus your current general you would get 8 of them. More then enough to worry a hydra or hellpit.

I know most of these suggestions are all about adding stuff and not taking things out to fit them so feel free to ignore them all because I really don't know what I would take out to get them in. The general or the arch lector would be the most likely candidates but each of them are awesome at what they do. Anyways glad to see you are enjoying the empire.

Demoulius
20-07-2011, 20:16
Thanks for the suggestion :)

As far as im aware you can add units on mounts inside units of normal infantry? :confused: I see people do it all the time and the barded steed was to give him a good AS for not that many points :rolleyes:

Im not to sure if I should keep the ranged unit. At higher points I intend to add more but i could only find room for 1 unit :cries: I think its best to swap them out for a mortar...

Good call on the engineer but like you say yourself, id need to find some somewhere...

Morax
22-07-2011, 17:43
Yes you can enter the unit if you are on a mount, the people you see doing it are not cheating. The problem lies in that you can declare a shooting at the individual model if he is not the same unit type. In your list he is a calvary model in an infantry unit. A skilled player will declare shots at the BSB with just about anything to get rid of him and net himself a healthy ammount of victory points. From warmachine fire the problem becomes even more exacerbated. A cannon will mush him rather quickly without the LoS save. Give it a go your self the next time one of your buddies wants to put his character on a mount inside an infantry unit. I'd give the core rule book a look over first so that you can direct your friend with the soon to be dead character to the appropriate section (page 99 if you have the small rule book).

If you are keeping the 10 handgunners the you can field another 10 by droping 2 knights and the addtional wizard level off of the level 2. Two units of 10 make a solid base to whittle down some units on their way in. If you are going for the mortar you can drop one knight and the addional level off of the level 2 wizard and grab a bare bones engineer to make all your warmachines more effective. Droping the knight/s won't affect the effectiveness of the unit and droping the addtional level on the wizard will still get you the spell you want. You will also have a bunch of spells to cast should you roll well for your winds of magic since you are also fielding an Arch Lector.

vinush
06-08-2011, 15:55
Not sure if anyone's mentioned it yet, but the greatswords aren't that great. I'd be inclined to drop them, as for 20 points less you can have 20 Halberdiers with full command, a detachment of 10 free company and a detachment of 5 archers, or for 10 points more take swordsmen over free company for survivability and hopefully removing your opponent's rank bonus. Deploy the archers up front and the parent unit 3" behind with the free company back and to the side of the parent unit. If your opponent charges the archers, you just flee with them (they don't cause panic in other units due to the detachment rule) hopefully leaving your opponent's unit open for a charge from you next turn. Even if they do make it to your parent unit after your detachment flees, you counter charge with the detachment.

For what it's worth, my 1000 point Empire list looks like this:

Warrior Priest, General, Second Weapon, Armour of Meteoric Iron.
Captain, BSB, Full Plate Armour, Biting Blade

20x Halberdiers, Full command
-10 Swordsmen detachment
-5 Archers detachment

20x Halberdiers, Full command
-10 Swordsmen detachment
-5 Archers detachment

10x Crossbowmen, banner

10x Crossbowmen, banner

Mortar

Great Cannon

Totals to 1002 points.

The banners in the crossbowmen are there for the Blood and Glory scenario. You could swap out the crossbowmen units for Handgunners with banners.

It's quite a tidy little force which packs a semi decent punch, but it will really struggle in the magic phase against anyone with a half decent wizard as a Warrior Priest isn't that great for magic power or defense, but buffs his unit no end.

THE \/ince

Demoulius
08-08-2011, 12:13
Sounds like an interesting army :) Lots of shooting :D

Played a few games with my army so far though and it works out fairly well (when I renember that my opponent should come to me, not the other way around :mad: )

I made some changes to the 1500 pts list I posted earlier. I dropped 2 knights, the horse on the BSB (for reasons posted here...) and found out my archlector was overpriced by 10 points in my list....

In return I got a standard of arcane warding on my greatswords and a standard of flame (cant renember the name...eternal flame?) on the knights. In case a hydra or whatever shows up I can strip it off its regeneration :evilgrin: Also got the dragonhelm on the BSB for a 3+ save and a 'look out sir' save :D

Tigranius
09-08-2011, 15:32
If you want to sit back and wait with your canons, go for more handgunners. In my experience, they take down nearly everything. Make sure you wither down units which come close and them smash it with your combat units.

Best of luck!

Demoulius
10-08-2011, 12:27
Well if I want to add stuff im going to have to remove something first... Which part of my army could I remove without shooting myself in the foot? :confused:

I could remove the general (and banner) plus knights. For the freed up points I can takea block of 20 swordsmen and 2 units of 10 handgunners/crossbowmen/archers with some points for champions to spare :)

Does that sound like a more viable list?

Morax
10-08-2011, 17:28
Not really, the knights give you a strong flanking force that is durable at 1500. At higher points they lose a lot of their value because they stop being cost effective. But at your current point value they are excellent at what they do.

They also give you an additional source of higher strength attacks. Against some lists that is vital.

If you are wanting to include a stronger shooting element, you could drop the banner of arcane warding (the archlector provides a lot of magic protection at this level) and the second level off of the wizard (primarily you want the signature spell from the lore of beasts) for a total of 75 points. That would get you a mortar, or you can drop the above stuff and a muscian off of the unit of 20 halberdiers to afford 10 handgunners.

The mortar has a higher damage potential but it can blow up. The handgunners suffer from not usually being in range of anything first turn. Either is a solid choice.

Demoulius
03-09-2011, 01:28
Changed the topic title as the focus has been shifted towards that basicly...

So with a few games under my belt with my old list some flaws came aparant. Redid it abit and would liketo hear what you guys think of the new list....

Characters
Archlector, AOMI, dawnstone, GW (general)
Captain, BSB, full plate, dragonhelm, shriekingblade (worked very well for me so far :) )
lvl 2 fire wizard with channeling staff
lvl 2 beast wizard with ironcurse icon (level 2 because there are some other spells in the beast tree that are ok :) besides having a backup wizard for dispelling is always nice :evilgrin: )

army
10 crossbowmen
10 crossbowmen
20 swordsmen, full command
25 halberdiers, full command
34 greatswords, full command
great cannon
mortar

1499 points!

the crossbowmen have been performing quite well so far. Having 2 units of them might give my shooting phase abit of a bigger punch. the swordsmen are there to tie up things mostly. ive found that halberdiers can (somewhat) dish out damage but cant absorb it, no matter what is attacking them.... the swordsmen with the higher save, WS and I should be able to stick around abit longer. The beast wizard will also stay with them and keep the beast signature on them (hopefully) when they need it :)

The firewizard will join a unit of crossbowmen (not to close to the table edge, dont want them running off the table like in the last battle I played :mad: ) and the chanelling staff is a good source of (potential) extra dice... at least IMHO.

big unit of Greatswords and halberdiers will stay close together and keep eachothers flanks somewhat secure. The BSB and general will join these as well :skull:

The cannon and mortar will do what they do best (not blowing up during the process hopefully) and thats about the general idea behind the army. Thoughts?