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lovedinplaster
11-07-2011, 23:57
So I played my 5th game vs woc today.. 2,500 points with.. We played blood and glory.. And I think I would have won the game.. But because of an item that game him a ward save vs magic.. And an additional wardsave due to magic resistance.

Now the question.. I am running banner of dripping death.. And would have killed his bsb and an additional standard with two awesome rolls of. A 5 and 6.. But he claimed the attacks from the dripping death were magical.. And passed his ward save even though the army book does not specify this is a magical attack.. So.. Does he gain the ward save?

castellanash
12-07-2011, 00:01
I'm going to say magic banner - BRB says magic item = magic attack therefore... magic attacks... Oh what a difficult question but seriously now it's kinda logical, magic banner = magic attacks.

lovedinplaster
12-07-2011, 00:36
That was his point.. But there are many weapons under the "magic items list" that are not counted as being magical.. Or having magical attacks. Fluff wise.. I'd say the banner drips acid or corrosive material making it a non magical attack

Jack of Blades
12-07-2011, 00:47
It isn't a magical attack unless it says so. Case in point, this is why you for example have the BRB Banner of Eternal Flame granting flaming attacks but the VC Banner of Hellfire granting flaming and magical attacks. I don't see how anyone could possibly argue against this particular example proving the point unless he's deliberately trying to make it into a magical attack and cherry-picking evidence as it suits his purposes.

Also unless you meant an all-purpose ward save there is no item - at least not one to my knowledge, and I just checked the WoC book and BRB - which grants a ward save ''against magic''. Perhaps you meant the Golden Eye of Tzeentch which is a WoC talisman that grants the wearer a 4+ ward save against magical missiles? Double-check that he's playing this one properly ;)

lovedinplaster
12-07-2011, 01:00
Yes I believe he was using the talisman, and thank you for clearing this up.. He had an item that gave him a magic resistance, and a ward save vs magic(missiles or not I'm unsure) we play once a week so I clarify this for him. So even against my cloud of corruption for example.. He would only have magic reisyance and not the extra ward save from the talisman..

Two more questions and that is it.. Boneripper has "...fires as a warpfire thrower..." this includes miscasts and all correct?

Hellcannon.. Does not have stomping attacks? We looked to see if it was classified as monster.. But then again.. I don't think manticore was either..

Jack of Blades
12-07-2011, 01:05
Boneripper can indeed misfire from using it.

The Hellcannon does have thunderstomp - it's a monster. You can look up the definition of it on page 489 of the BRB.

You're welcome :)

lovedinplaster
12-07-2011, 01:13
Thank you, your expertise on these matters has been of great help. Now I am more the wise as my gaming experience becomes more enjoyable:-)


I would have won that game too now. Killing a standard and a bsb.. Putting him at breakin point

Feefait
12-07-2011, 02:14
Magic attacks are different from magic, bottom line. He wouldn't get a ward against a jezzail either, but warp lightning yes if its a save against MAGIC. WOC. Are easy to beat with skaven. Too many no armor save attacks or high strength jezzails for them to deal with. The hellcannon is killer on rats though. Is suggest a large unit of giant rats to flank and tie that thing up, or rat ogre to go after it. Gutterrunners will be all but useless unless you get some lucky poison shots.

lovedinplaster
12-07-2011, 02:36
Very true! I run jezzails, globadiers with poison windmortar attachment. 2 cannons( the only thing that can deal with his hellcannon) and doomwheel.

Other units include thanquol(all plaguespells besides 13th) 2 units of 5 gutter runners( useless as you say towards the cannon other than my hidden assassin).. My two units of ten giant rats are there.. But aren't large enough to tie up anything.. They redirect run through and provide cheap flank attacks for combat res.. 2 units of clanrats with warpfire thrower and an engineer( my other assassin hides with thanquol and my bsb with potion of Strength and weeping blade for lord killing)

Gutter runners are useless.. Everything in his list has a 3+ save or better..

Toe Cutter
14-07-2011, 13:09
Gutter runners aren't useless against the hell cannon they just don't one turn it in the same way that they do most other warmachines. Yes it has a ward save and chaos dwarf attendants but that just means it has more wounds to take off and it saves half of the wounds you put on it.

sninsch
14-07-2011, 14:22
Gutter runners aren't useless against the hell cannon they just don't one turn it in the same way that they do most other warmachines. Yes it has a ward save and chaos dwarf attendants but that just means it has more wounds to take off and it saves half of the wounds you put on it.

5 gutter runners should statistically need 2 turns to destroy a normal warmachine. And much much longer to take a hellcannon down. Use warp lightning cannons and DW this are far better choices.

OldMaster
14-07-2011, 17:08
It isn't a magical attack unless it says so. Case in point, this is why you for example have the BRB Banner of Eternal Flame granting flaming attacks but the VC Banner of Hellfire granting flaming and magical attacks. I don't see how anyone could possibly argue against this particular example proving the point unless he's deliberately trying to make it into a magical attack and cherry-picking evidence as it suits his purposes.


Surely you will agree that a banner granting an effect to somebody is different from a banner that inflicts harm or causes some different kind of magical disability?

An effect of a magic banner is magical, whatever it is.
In your example above, both of the effects of the banners are magical, though one does not actually make the WEAPONS of the unit magical, while the other does.

Similarly, the hits inflicted by the Shroud of Dripping Death are magical and since they inflict Wounds a character with Magic Resistance will be allowed a saving throw. They will also hit Ethereal creatures.

The Golden Eye of Tzeentch Ward obviously doesn't apply lol.

EDIT: Just checked, nah, Magical Resistance won't work, it only works against spells. The hits are still magical, though.

Toe Cutter
15-07-2011, 10:31
5 gutter runners should statistically need 2 turns to destroy a normal warmachine. And much much longer to take a hellcannon down. Use warp lightning cannons and DW this are far better choices.

:eyebrows:

If you're taking an all comers list (and not tailoring your list for each new opponent) that contains units (plural) of gutter runners then you very much can use the gutter runners to finish off the hell cannon. As mentioned it takes longer because the hell cannon has more wounds and a ward save but if you're using your gutter runners to do this it frees up your lightning cannon to drop no save templates onto units of warriors and your doomwheel for zapping monstrous infantry such as trolls (or heavy cavalry such as chaos knights).

I'll put it this way - gutter runners are better at killing hell cannons than they are at kiling chaos warriors and monstrous infantry. They're not as good at it as they are at killing normal warmachines but they'll certainly do the job if you need your rares to be focusing on more pressing targets.

lovedinplaster
15-07-2011, 21:17
Right now I only play woc, but I should be facing dwarves, lizardmen, and dark elves all in the near future..

As for now.. My gutter runners have never earned points. Two units of 5 btw.. I would almost rather have.. More clanrats/ jezzails... Or even a scone doomwheel or third warplightning cannon.

OldMaster
15-07-2011, 21:21
As far as I know the Skaven armybook or just Warhammer in general..

5 Gutter Runners SHOULDN'T earn points.
Increase the size of the unit.

Warrior of Chaos
15-07-2011, 21:59
So even against my cloud of corruption for example... He would only have magic resistance and not the extra ward save from the talisman.

Remember you only get the highest ward save available against a given attack...not multiple ward saves.

Against your cloud he would get his magic resistance. The talisman is good for magic missiles which the cloud is not. In a hypothetical situation where he has say magic resistance (2) and say something that gives a 4+ ward. He would only use the 4+ ward....he doesn't get an additional ward from the magic resistance. You simply use the highest save applicable to defend the against the wound. Of course there are some cases of ward saves stacking for bonuses, but it would say so explicitly if it does...(i.e. Mark of Tzeentch stacks with other ward saves.)

Warrior of Chaos
15-07-2011, 22:01
As far as I know the Skaven armybook or just Warhammer in general..

5 Gutter Runners SHOULDN'T earn points.
Increase the size of the unit.

Agreed. I would consider increasing the size of your Runners unit.;)

lovedinplaster
15-07-2011, 23:44
So combine the two units of 5 into one?

Also, thanks for the tip on the ward save.. I believe he was stacking because he told me his Korne lord has a 2+ ward vs magic.. I didn't ask to see the book of anything.. And still learnin the intricacies of the rules themselves

Tanglewood
18-07-2011, 01:56
Sorry but that's wrong Warrior of Chaos. Magic resistance and ward saves DO stack. A 4+ ward and MR2 will give 2+ ward (eg seer mounted on bell).

Gutter runners should be in multiple of 3 (eg 6, 9) as you need 6 shots to get 1 poison wound so every 3 gutter runners = 6 shots = 1 wound per round of shooting

You want to keep your GR unit small so you don't lose too many points if you have to sacrifice them. And so you don't lose too many of them if you're shot with a particularly strong boosted fireball for example. Consider having a unit of 9 or better than that, multiple units of 6.

Kadris
18-07-2011, 05:21
Sorry but that's wrong Warrior of Chaos. Magic resistance and ward saves DO stack. A 4+ ward and MR2 will give 2+ ward (eg seer mounted on bell).

the 2+ would only be vs spells, not magical attacks, and so would get the 4+ vs magical attacks.

BaSe
18-07-2011, 08:21
I run 5 gutter runners in my 2000 point units and as long as I place them right they usually destroy a couple of war machines. It takes 2 turns usually but its done ;)

Tanglewood
18-07-2011, 18:59
In this case, he is talking about cloud of corruption where the ward save 4+ and MR2 will give him 2+ ward. Basically MR is used during magic phase and not anywhere else iirc

lovedinplaster
19-07-2011, 01:06
Okay, excellent. Thanks for the tip guys... I'm having a hard time beating this army.. Maybe it's my build..anything I bring into combat tends to easily lose.. Tooled up khorne cavalry with khorne lord on juggernaut and a hero on juggernaut. I have jezzails and my grey seer with plague spells tend to hurt him a lot. Besides that.. Once he reaches my side of the table it's slowly down hill from there:-/