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Gharnukk
12-07-2011, 16:27
Greetings.

I haven't really played with my High elves in 8th edition and thought that I should give it a try. Been working on a list but I'm not quite pleased with it... Help and comments appretciated.

Prince Athalas: Lance, Dragon armour, Enchanted shield, Vambraces of defence, Griffon.
Mage: Level 2, Silver wand (Lore?)
Mage: Level 2, Jewel of the dusk, Dispel scroll (High magic)

28 Sea Guards: Standard and musician
28 Sea Guards: Standard and musician

28 Swordmasters of Hoeth: Standard and musician.
21 White lions of Chrace: Standard and musician.
5 Shadow warriors
5 Ellyrian Reavers

2 Great eagles

Pretty much based around the Island of blood miniatures. Thank you for your help.

Morax
12-07-2011, 16:54
Take a great weapon over the lance on the Prince, str 6 all the time and you still get to reroll failed to hit rolls.

Take the seer staff instead of the Silver wand, picking what spells you get trumps an extra spell every time. If you are set taking High magic on the second mage I would suggest Life on the first. 5+ regen and +2 toughness is really helpfull to a HE list.

You have a lot of things to go mage/warmachine hunting. Granted it is a huge concern for high elves you may have overdone it a tad. I'd look at droping the reavers or shadow warriors and then taking the points and fielding a second unit of swordmasters. Split the two units eavenly and you will have awesome flankers with some survivability when buffed with life spells.

thesheriff
12-07-2011, 18:48
My vote goes for seerstaff and great weapon too.

Also, split the swoardsmasters. Whats the point in not haing two units of them?

Give your white lions Banner of sorcery. Help out your magic phase a bit.

Lores. Well, i think you shoudl have the following;

*Lv.2 mage, annulian crystal, lore of beasts (wyssans wild form + what ever. Wyssans is great)
*Lv.2 mage, Seerstaff, lore of shadow (okamms mind razor, Miasma)

Both lores really suit dark elves. Mind razor is lethal with seaguard or spearmen in combat. Wild form bulks all your troops up a bit and makes them more durable. Miasma is a good alrounder. And you get a lucky dip too.

thesheriff

Gharnukk
12-07-2011, 19:46
Ok, thanks for the replies. How many Swordmasters should I put in each unit then?
Just 14? In two ranks of seven? And is 21 good with the White lions?

Trains_Get_Robbed
12-07-2011, 20:08
Why on earth would you pick the Seerstaff over silver wand? Grabbing the S.W increases the odds of rolling what a double or a spell you want (flesh to stone, regen, Regrowth/Dwellers -since you only have a lvl 2) by something like 20% -the last time I was Silver Wand to Seerstaff compasrsions.

You cannont have two arcane items on the Lvl two, to be honest however, I would grab two H.E magic. A ++5 ward that can be throw out twice is better than T5 when Orcs have S7/8 on the charge, Chosen and WoC have S6 etc. . . T5 is good, but its situational. This allows to take the Annulian Crystal on something else as well if you choose to instead of the S.S or S.W as you would have the protection spell you need Shield of Shenangians twice.

Getting Flames of the Phoniex or Curse or Fury of Khaine can be helpful in your crowd control magagement of the field.

Any H.E riding a mount should have Vambraces and AoC, however that would leave your BsB not having the ability to get a decent save. Speaking of which, I would cut 7 S.M, and the reavers to to include a BsB in your list, its kind of crucial. :P

Lastly, I don't know what models you have, but to keep the BsB surviavble he needs to be mounted, and preferbly if he is mounted he needs to be in a cav. of some kind (D.Ps/S.H). And thus, your list could be further tweaked.

Having 20 bodies of S.M/W.L is how I run my units, because if I take any casualties at all I start losing attacks in the first round of combat, which is asenine because I start losing combats before I even fight them; 14 is too few for me. This being said, you could probably cut 7 W.L if you wanted to try out a unit of 14 too see how it works for you, and would give you around enough points for a small 5 man S.H ((((edit: and more importatnly, that LoS)))) (45 short of 5 D.Ps) for a mounted BsB.

BoS should also be looked at D3 Pd every game is to good to pass up at fifty points.

Gharnukk
12-07-2011, 20:18
At the moment I have the following miniatures.

Prince on griffon.
2 Mages on foot
41 Sea guards
32 Swordmasters
20 White lions
5 Shadow warriors
5 Ellyrian reavers
2 Great eagles

From what I've heard cavalry sucks in 8th edition so I haven't given it much thought.
How is the "typical" HE tornament list built?

thesheriff
12-07-2011, 20:23
Why on earth would you pick the Seerstaff over silver wand? Grabbing the S.W increases the odds of rolling what a double or a spell you want (flesh to stone, regen, Regrowth/Dwellers -since you only have a lvl 2) by something like 20% -the last time I was Silver Wand to Seerstaff compasrsions.

Why take the risk. I find that silver wand is better on a higher caster (lv.4). Where you would get 5 spells. The odds of rolling a double are far greater there. And you sometimes roll two doubles or a triple, so you can often secure up to 5 decent spells.

Where as with silver wand on lower casters, lores where you want a select few spells, or some spells that work well in conjunction (throne of vines + other spell for example).

back to questions;


Ok, thanks for the replies. How many Swordmasters should I put in each unit then?
Just 14? In two ranks of seven? And is 21 good with the White lions?

two ranks of 7 are fine. You will get all of them in almost all the time.

21 is a good number. With white lions, they have the durability with the cloaks. unlike sowrdsmasters. Also, big units of swordsmasters draw alot of fire. More than WL IMO.

Citadel97501
12-07-2011, 20:41
Prince on Griffon is cool, and can do a pretty good job at killing war-machines and small shooting units but be careful with any other unit. In fact I would try to fit on the Stubborn Helmet since he will have issues with ranked units.

Sadly Sword Masters, are just to squishy in the new rules, ask to field them as a block of 20 Phoenix Guard, believe me once you have played with them once or twice, you will very carefully think about buying some.

Blocks of 18-21 White Lions, are great, in fact a friend of mine has been crushing people with this block of 29 + a bsb with the World Dragon Banner, its extremely killy and is not that expensive about on par with your Prince. Nothing like making Dwarves cry.

Shadow Warriors and Elyrion Reavers are nearly worthless in this edition, they are just way over priced and are extremely fragile. Hell 1/2 the time they can't take out a war-machine.

Great Eagles, are very good for their price I would suggest taking 2 of them if you can, as they work well vs. War Machines and work extremely well in killing Jezzails (Rat snipers), and in dealing with Goblin Fanatics which are the Bane of HE''s in this edition.

The Standard Tourney build, I have been seeing is all infantry all the time, and usually includes the following.

Teclis or a Prince on Foot
A Noble or 2, or 2 Mages depending

2 x 20 Spear Men (although Sea Guard are just as prevalent.)
10 Archers

20 Phoenix Guard with Banner of Sorcery
20 White Lions (or another unit of 20 Phoenix Guard)

a few great eagles

Gharnukk
12-07-2011, 21:31
How about Princes, are there any good builds for non mounted? As I don't use any cavalry. The Griffon one maybe is too expensive? I like the miniature a lot though. So two small units of Swordmasters instead of a big one. And a big block of White lions.
Just finding it hard to fit all the good stuff in this list... Always a problem haha

thesheriff
12-07-2011, 21:40
How about Princes, are there any good builds for non mounted? As I don't use any cavalry. The Griffon one maybe is too expensive? I like the miniature a lot though. So two small units of Swordmasters instead of a big one. And a big block of White lions.
Just finding it hard to fit all the good stuff in this list... Always a problem haha

Well, i find that combat charecters are very expensive for proportionally less damage than say, some more swordsmasters or white lions would do.

If you dont want a lord on griffon/mosnter mount, i would rather go with a lv.4 personally.

Gharnukk
12-07-2011, 21:43
A level 4 and a lvl 2 then? Im more of a unit guy aswell. Maybe should give it a try to use minimal points on the characters so I can fit the units that I want.

thesheriff
12-07-2011, 21:53
Id go with the following (this might sound quite order-like);
*Lv.4 w. Silver wand, Talismain of Saphery, Forlaiths robes (Lore of life) = 350
*Lv.2 w. Seerstaff (Lore of shadow, okams mind razor, misama) = 165
*Noble w. Armour of Caelador, Guardian phoiniex, Great weapon = 168

Those are competative builds. They arnt techlis or book of hoeth, there the next step down IMO. But, it is what i would suggest.

Gharnukk
12-07-2011, 22:57
So the BSB isn't that important?

Trains_Get_Robbed
13-07-2011, 06:20
Why take the risk. I find that silver wand is better on a higher caster (lv.4). Where you would get 5 spells. The odds of rolling a double are far greater there. And you sometimes roll two doubles or a triple, so you can often secure up to 5 decent spells.

Where as with silver wand on lower casters, lores where you want a select few spells, or some spells that work well in conjunction (throne of vines + other spell for example).

21 is a good number. With white lions, they have the durability with the cloaks. unlike sowrdsmasters. Also, big units of swordsmasters draw alot of fire. More than WL IMO.

True, it may be better to have the spells you WANT rather than just wing it on a Lvl 2, however when you roll well and get what you want though and know 3 spells, its like you have a Lvl 3 on the field with ++3 to dispell and knowing 3 spells -just take a good lore though, don't take something high cast value like Life or beasts (should have mentioned that in the first place).

Taking the S.W on a Lvl 4 is wasting your arcane item slot. Meanwhile you have Slanns and Grey Seers toting the next 'hottest thing,' if you have a lvl 4 either he should be multi-purpose, or providing the army with some sort of edge in the magic phase, knowing another spell dosen't really place in either of those descriptions.

I'm firmly in the camp of no S.W on a Lvl 4. ++5 is nice for dispelling until they chuck 4-5 dice at a spell. This combined with the Seerstaff on a lvl 2 gives the H.E player ZERO magic defense. H.E need to dominate/restrict or do enough of both in each part of the magic phase to heavily increase the chances of winning a game. If your going to take the S.W and or S.S, only take one, not both, get yourself some magic defense after that.

At the 2,500 point level I used to run this until it got boring.

Prince: AoC, White Sword, G.P, ToL. +2 ++5 K.B and can make your opponent reroll wards and armors for one turn, and you can reroll your hits and wounds.

and then a Lvl 4 with either the Unkillable set up and a scroll or the book.

For heroes its a lvl 2 with A.C and a defensive/utility lore like H.E or Shadow.

BsB mounted and in a smallish unit with +1 rerollble, ++4 ward one time only and 3D6 LD test one time, or just Teks Gaunts for a +1 and ++5 against S4 and higher.

Cav. dosen't suck that much in 8th, however only certain armies have cav. worth taking. It just so happens that H.E have D.P's which can be good in smallish units, and can help on the middle-flank area of the board (you don't want to put on a flank with the BsB because then the Bsb will be out of range :p -aim to stick the Bsb on the inside of the unit facing the middle obviously until you have warmachines delt with or combat ensuing next phase(s).

Their role is unique as it they fill different purposes for different people. D.Ps can advance with your battle line and picking off small units, fast cav. and the like, or for exmaple can also be used as a harder hitting Great Eagle that provides a LoS for your BsB until he departs, acting as a redirector(s).

Since your Lord charcter is using the +2 AoC, if he wasn't, then the standard BsB setup is AoC/G.P, although some like the Dawnstone/AoC. You can have a a BsB on foot with a +3 A.S, that will get a LoS and help out in combat, feel free to try it out -maybe you will like it; this being said, he will most likley get eaten alive unless in a Regenerating unit/Flesh to Stone unit with your Lvl 4.

Recently I have been bored of my H.E and realized it was the lack of a 'Heroic charcter' and will be trying this bulid out tomorrow. He is meh-good on surviavbilty with a +3, ++5 aginst S4 and higher, however he more importantly has the SoAH, and the Crown of Command, perfect in a unit of S.M or P.G that are going to be recieveing buffs every turn (with my playstyle).

For a standard tourney build what are we talking about, ala no restrictions or restrictions of sorts?

Gharnukk
13-07-2011, 09:08
Here are the restrictions from the latest tournament, though its 2400 points.

Rules changes:
- Characters will get "look out sir" versus the following spells that automatically kill models or automatically remove an entire regiment: Dwellers Below, Final Transmutation, Dreaded 13th, Infernal Gateway 11-12 effect. Normal requirements for lookout sir apply.
- Dark Elf Sorceresses cannot cast spells using more dice than normal wizards .

I. General Restrictions:

2400 Points.
No Special or Named Characters.
Army used can be any of the currently published GW Army books.
A maximum of 3 identical core choices may be taken (regardless of equipment and other upgrades)
An army may have up to 5 war machines and template weapons. Warmachines that use a template count as a single choice in this regard. All template weapons (from magic items, abilities, etc.) count, except for spells.
Max. 45 models with missile weapons with a range of 20”+ (not incl. war machines, characters and chariots).

Unit sizes are limited as follows:
Units cannot be more than 40 models nor 450 points (including all command, upgrades, magic items/banners). This restriction applies during the creation of the roster - unit size/cost may be increased during the game (for example - by joining characters to the unit). This restriction does not apply to characters.

Magic Restrictions:
- Apart from Winds of magic and Channeling, an army may only generate 2 PD/DD per magic phase.
- You may have units/abilities that actually would generate more than 2 extra dice, but any excess dice are lost
- Some magic items/abilities count as generating dice toward this limit.
- “Count as” items/abilities may never exceed a cumulative 2 PD/DD per phase. This means that if you take the Book of Hoeth, you may not take any other items that “count as adding PD/DD”
- All modifiers are applied from the army list and will not change during the game.

Detailed description
Apart from winds of magic and through the channeling rule, an army may only ever add 2 dice to its power or dispel pool in each magic phase. Any dice added to the pool, regardless of source (generated, stolen, stored from previous magic phases, generated by magic items/abilities to boost spellcasting before or after the casting attempt, produced by spells, lore abilities, and so on) count. Excess dice are simply discarded and cannot be used in any way (i.e. - they can’t be stored).

If a dice is stolen from the opponent’s pool, but your army has already generated two extra dice, the dice is removed from the opponent’s pool and then discarded.

Some special items and abilities DECREASE the limit of power or dispel dice you can add to the pool. We refer to those as “count as” items. What this means is that, if your roster includes one “counts as 1 Power Dice (PD)” item, your army can only add 1 power dice (instead of the usual 2 dice) to the pool in each of your own magic phases of the entire game (regardless of whether the item is destroyed or used up).
Please note that you cannot have a combination of items that would decrease the limit of extra power or dispel dice to below zero.

Item restrictions:
- Power Scroll is banned
- Each Loremaster ability counts as generating 1 PD each magic phase
- Any item that auto-dispels a spell counts as generating 1 DD each magic phase.
- Folding Fortress is not allowed

Army Specific Restrictions:
Beastmen: Beastmen armies have an extra 200 points for their roster (2600 total). All victory points scored against this army are decreased by 10% (excluding bonus points for banners, general, etc.).
Bretts: No Restrictions
Dark Elves: Hydra is a 0-1 choice. Max. 35 repeater Crossbows in the army (regardless of who carries them). Repeater Bolt Throwers 0-2. Flying units (inc. characters on flying steeds) in the army limited to 0-3. Shades max 20 models per army. Dreadlord on pegasus cannot take Crown of Command.
Dwarves: Each spellbreaker/spelleater rune counts as +1 DD. Grudge Throwers are a 0-2 choice; May generate Max. +4 dispel dice instead of +2
DOC: Max. 28 Models per unit; Flamers are a 0-1 choice. All daemonic gifts are 0-1. Bloodletters and Herald of Khorne are 0-3 total. Daemonic Battle Standard can take either daemonic icon or gifts.
Empire: Steam Tank counts as a war machine; Tank, Rocket battery and Engineers are 0-1 choices
High Elves: Max. 500 points or 40 models per unit; Vortex Shard counts as +1DD; Book of Hoeth counts as 2PD and 2 DD; Banner of the World Dragon counts as +1 DD
Lizardmen: Salamanders are a 0-1 Choice ; Terradons and Stegadons (any kind) are 0-2 choices; Beclaming Cogitations counts as +2DD; Cupped hands counts as +2PD
Ogres: Ogre Kingdoms armies have an extra 200 points for their roster (2600 total). All victory points scored against this army are decreased by 10% (excluding bonus points for banners, general, etc.). Rhinox Riders are allowed.
O&G: Night Goblin Shamans are 0-3 (max 3 of any kind of NG shaman); mushroom dice do not count as power dice in regard to the PD limit.
Skaven: All Skaven rare choices 0-1; Gutter runners are a 0-2 choice; Engineers are a 0-3 choice;
Vampires: Wraiths and Varghulf are 0-1 choices. Wraith unit size - maximum 5 models. Army may have maximum two units (total) of: wraiths, black coach or spirit hosts. Army may include a maximum of two of the following: Helm of Commandment, Master of the Black Arts, Drakenhoff Banner.

thesheriff
13-07-2011, 10:37
That's a fun read!

Wonder why book of hoeth isn't banned, yet power scroll is.

Don't think you will have too much problem with that.

Gharnukk
13-07-2011, 11:07
Been looking at a list with Dragon princes with a BSB in it. And I cant see in any way, shape or form how that is better than another unit of Swordmasters... Can't you just put a BSB on foot in any unit and place it in the centre of the army? And banners generally, should I use any banners in my units (Eternal flame, Sorcery, Balance)?

g0ddy
13-07-2011, 17:09
Your mage with High magic.. cannot have both a dispell scroll and a jewel of dusk - in 8th ed you are no longer allowed to take a scroll or power stone in addition to another arcane item.

How many isle of blood sets are we talking about here... thats a lot of seaguard ;)...

For your 2nd mage.. you probably want to start with either Life or Shadow and get a feel for what you like.

EDIT: I failed at refreshign the page before replying... tons of stuff to read...

Thesheriff - the power scroll and book of hoeth work in very different ways.. and one costs 3 and a half times as many points as the other :p
That said.. I have no idea why the book would count as dispell dice.

Gharnukk - Banner of Sorcery, Standard of Blades are great unit banners. If you want to take a noble BSB i would try and avoid giving him a magic banner and make sure hes well protected (armour of caledor.. etc)

The silly comp rules appear to restrict the total number of sea guard in your army to 45.... of course they do nothing to address goblin shooting... or halberd/marauder death stars...

~ Zilla

Gharnukk
13-07-2011, 20:42
Thank you for the reply :) I'm working on a new list at the moment.
Including some of the tips written above in the thread. And some still
loyal to what I like and find fun to use. Update soon!

Morax
13-07-2011, 21:37
The dragon princes work best as a flanking unit. That said they have to keep their points down and have a solid anchor unit to work off of. As anchor units are hard to come by in the high elves, need to be resilient to incoming damage, dragon princes can feel a little lost.

One way to use them is 7 strong with a banner and the banner of eternal flame. This gets you 14 ws5 str5 flaming attacks with which to kill regenerating monsters and is rather cheep. Their high movement value means they can usually come to grips with what they want to with out too much trouble and with only 7 of them they shouldn't be seen as too big a threat by larger units. They would also work fine in this configuration as a high level mage hunter. The problem here is if your opponent doesn't have a big scary monster for them to kill they are going to feel like wasted points rather quickly. Another problem with this configuration is that they are just too expensive to go warmachine hunting as that job can be done far more economically by great eagles.

Units of 5 dragon princes with minimal upgrades, just a banner or banner and musician, work well as flanking units to add some punch for a lower point cost. I don't have the book in front of me at the moment but, 5 of them should clock in at a comparable price to a chariot and with their better save and more attacks they work better in this role as well. This configuration also works for mage hunting, even better then the larger unit of 7 as their points value is lower so you are dedicating less to the attempt.

Unless the army book is horribly dated, all units in it can have a use. Some are just a bit more limited in a battlefield function. Hope you don't give up on a unit at first glance as some creative uses can really make the odd unit shine.

g0ddy
14-07-2011, 16:53
a minimal unit of dragon princes is about twice the price of an ellyrion chariot.. ;)

"Unless the army book is horribly dated, all units in it can have a use. Some are just a bit more limited in a battlefield function. Hope you don't give up on a unit at first glance as some creative uses can really make the odd unit shine. "

Or when GW decides to put all 3 cavalry units in the same slot... *cough* silverhelms ;)

~ Zilla

thesheriff
14-07-2011, 17:02
a minimal unit of dragon princes is about twice the price of an ellyrion chariot.. ;)

i think he meant the decent chariot. Lion chariots. Lion chariots on the charge are roughly equal in force to a unit of 5 princes. And two Elryllion chariots are about the same in force as one lion chariot.

g0ddy
14-07-2011, 17:04
lion chariots are overpriced :( ... a decent chariot.. would be a cold one or chaos chariot :p

5 dragon princes are most definitely a better buy than a lion chariot~

~ Zilla

Gharnukk
14-07-2011, 17:42
Yeah, but 5 Dragon princes will never be better than a unit of Swordmasters or White lions. Swordmasters cut through anything, and with banners like eternal flame a small
unit can cut down a Hydra or even a Hellpit abomination. The White lions with their high strenght are not very fun to face either. Dragon princes has just never done anything for me... Neither has any of the chariots.

g0ddy
14-07-2011, 18:07
I used to run lion chariots in my chrace based 1999 pt army in 7th ed... even with the S7 auto kill rule gone.. its hard to justify their price now. Aside from the rule of cool of course!

That being said.. I'm stoked about fielding units of white lions as summoned monsters in Storm of Magic.. at 16 ppm they're a steal.

----

One of the first things I tried out in 8th ed. was a large unit of calvary - 12 silver helms, they were good at well.. killing lots of crappy troops (goblins etc) where you had nearly 20 attacks each round and a 2+ save to stop you from losing models.

Since then Ive moved onto using sword masters and phoenix guard in my armies... as they bring everything to the table that cavalry has.. and potentially more.

I guess this is a long winded way of saying.. Im in the same boat :p

~ Zilla

Gharnukk
15-07-2011, 11:07
I plan on using a Dragon, a Cockatrice, some War lions of Chrace and a couple of eagles with ASF for my SoM High elves list :) Three mages, A Lvl 4 and two Lvl 2. Then use pretty much the same units as in my regular list. Semi big blocks of Sea guards, Swordmasters and White lions :) Think that white lions are ideal for defending the arcane Fulcrums. Especially with some nasty spells on them...

thesheriff
15-07-2011, 22:49
Sounds cool your storm of magic ideas. I like the idea of fielding a unit of warlions.

Gharnukk
16-07-2011, 20:53
Sounds cool your storm of magic ideas. I like the idea of fielding a unit of warlions.

Probably going to start a SoM plog when I buy the miniatures for it :)