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Hroth the Blooded
13-07-2011, 17:28
This is a thread for GENERAL tactics. I.e. how to line up a good flank charge, how to keep important units safe, how to choose your fights, when to use cavalry, etc.

My 2 cents: Monsters are ALWAYS a good idea. (had a warsphinx kill 10 swordmasters in a 500 point game :evilgrin: )
cavalry is overrated.
big blocks of elites are expensive but worth it.

Gotrek
13-07-2011, 17:39
monsters are not always a good idea... some monsters are good options (HPA, hydra, sphynx) while others are utter crap (all beastmen rares for example)

cavalry are overrated unless you play brettonia (not like they have that many options either :P)

big blocks of elites are expensive and worth it unless your opponent just out steadfast them half the game.

drear
13-07-2011, 17:50
how do you fit a warsphinx into 500 points o.o? i assumed they were rare?

anways.

genral tactics:

on deployment try to give away as little as possible with your first few placements.
some armies can do this very very well, in a high elf army for instance i find placing 2 eagles on each flank first, which i would do anways regardless of settup. but because these are throw away units anwaay they dont giev away your deployment ideas, but make your opponent place 2 units , and with smaller armies they can often be important units.

this gives you a chance to build your basttle line around his deployment, making your matchups more beneficial to you.

macdaddy_o
13-07-2011, 18:24
Attack where your opponent is weak and avoid where he is strong (unless its blood and glory)

In armies where I have access to chaff, I like to use my chaff to divert and redirect my opponents strongest unit while I get desirable one on one match ups with the rest of his army. Control the movement phase and you control your opponents combat decisions. It is ask just a variation of the refused flank strategy (or refused center).

as others have said, that same chaff gives you an edge in deployment. If your opponent had to deploy his blocks before you, you can then easily dictate the match ups and give yourself the most favorable ones.

drear
13-07-2011, 18:31
spells that effect or limit movment can be very big.

itchy nuisance from the little waagh or flame cage, net of amtyock etc
if it means your opponent has to think about whether to move or not, its a good thing.

if you can stop movment for even 1 turn on some units, it can make a game, deplay a charge off a big unit etc

Goldenwolf
13-07-2011, 22:46
remember that the game is won in the close combat phase. You have lots of spells to choose from, taking the one that damages a unit is fun. Taking something that reduces that unit to worthless in combat is often a game winner.

warplock
14-07-2011, 01:02
how do you fit a warsphinx into 500 points o.o? i assumed they were rare?


They're Special, not Rare.

Hroth the Blooded
14-07-2011, 02:20
Yah, they're special. In addition to flanking the swordmasters, he thundercrushed a unit of lothern seaguard with 1 wound left, and made them flee off the board. Them and the warsphinx were the only units left. I won my first warhammer game with that guy. *sniff* But I now play WoC so I'll kick ass with a shaggoth or hellcannon.

Back on topic:

If you have heavy infantry USE IT. Unless you are going for a themed army, they can win you the game. (lucky me with heavy infantry for core :evilgrin: )

Keep your archer units flexible. I find that units of 20 with a musician are good. 2x10 for shooting, 4x5 for combat (if you have to)

Be frugal with your Rare selection. Special is often better, point for point.

Same goes for your characters. You do need some TROOPS in addition to your kickass 500 point slann of doom.

Artillery kicks ass. I am going to collect dwarves after WoC for the artillery alone, not to mention heavy infantry everywhere. (skaven can also be good, but are a horde army: more expensive)

Be smart with equipment choices. If your skeletons can take spears, ask yourself "will the spears help with their MAIN purpose (to be a tarpit)?" If the answer is no, leave the spears at home.

That's it for now.

Bonne chance!

Lord Solar Plexus
14-07-2011, 08:08
This is a thread for GENERAL tactics. I.e. how to line up a good flank charge, how to keep important units safe, how to choose your fights, when to use cavalry, etc.
[/quote[

That's a nice idea.

[quote]
My 2 cents: Monsters are ALWAYS a good idea.


I know this might sound overly critical but I don't understand why you skip it right away. You are not presenting any tactic or anwering any of the points you said you intended to discuss but start out with unit selection. While it goes somewhat hand in hand, that's still something very different in my book. If you know which tactical approach you would like to use, you can then find the appropriate units for it.

Just stating that unit class A or B is useful or not is not helpful. Heavy infantry will be more expensive for example, and quantity has a quality of its own. Monsters are just as useless as vice versa, depending on many factors - did it die turn 1 to artillery or a spell perhaps? - and cavalry is usually underrated. Only very recently did I see people make modest use of cavalry again.

BBWags
15-07-2011, 00:59
I'd be all for this kind of discussion and very much appreciate the thoughts on deploying and hopefully forcing the opponent to place his important units before you so you have a chance to counter them.

I think a lot of these general tactics will involve deployment and movement, probably the two key phases of the game. But to bring something up not related to those, let me make a hypothesis/ observation concerning issuing challenges. Challenges seem to run counter to fluff intuition. What I mean is if you have a Killy champion on one side and a not Killy champion on the other side, the weaker one probably wouldn't be eager to challenge in the fluff, but in gameplay, the weaker champ always wants to challenge the Killy guy. Why? Because it is better for the unit champ to die (1 model) rather than three models to die, thereby reducing your ranks far more quickly.

So unless you're going after a enemy character on purpose, remember that Killy champs (black Orc bosses) should not challenge the weaker (spearman sentinel) but the sentinel should always challenge the black Orc boss.

Hroth the Blooded
15-07-2011, 01:46
[QUOTE=Hroth the Blooded;5643919]This is a thread for GENERAL tactics. I.e. how to line up a good flank charge, how to keep important units safe, how to choose your fights, when to use cavalry, etc.
[/quote[

That's a nice idea.



I know this might sound overly critical but I don't understand why you skip it right away. You are not presenting any tactic or anwering any of the points you said you intended to discuss but start out with unit selection. While it goes somewhat hand in hand, that's still something very different in my book. If you know which tactical approach you would like to use, you can then find the appropriate units for it.

Just stating that unit class A or B is useful or not is not helpful. Heavy infantry will be more expensive for example, and quantity has a quality of its own. Monsters are just as useless as vice versa, depending on many factors - did it die turn 1 to artillery or a spell perhaps? - and cavalry is usually underrated. Only very recently did I see people make modest use of cavalry again.

I accept your criticism as a logical argument. I realize that just saying "monsters are good" isn't tactics. My tactics for monsters are somewhat altered because I play a non-slann LM list. But generally: use monsters to add some serious CR as a flank attack. DO NOT SOLO CHARGE WITH THEM! They will be massacred. (in my experience and mathhammer)

You bring up a good point, and I respect you for that.

My advice for movement and deployment: NOTHING!!! :D

I don't have enough experience to chip in on this topic. But...

For flank charges:

1. get an anvil unit engaged with the unit you wish to flank

2. get a good combat unit ready for flank charge, IN THE SAME TURN. This is vital.

3. flank charge

They either reform to face your combat beast, and get an anvil in their flank, or do nothing and get a combat unit in the flank. :evilgrin:

Wow, almost reached character limi

MOMUS
15-07-2011, 05:04
I would say alot of fantasy games im seeing is a race to get into combat, with little shooting and magic reduced to augment/hex with the odd massive destruction spell throw in for luck.

Im not seeing alot of maneuver, just lined up troops smash their faces out.

YMMV

T10
15-07-2011, 11:21
Charge the enemy in the flank with a unit with more ranks! Negates both enemy rank bonus and denies him the steadfast rule!

-T10

Sexiest_hero
15-07-2011, 11:25
Take units people think suck. I run an blood knight Black knight tag team. People start off by telling me cav sucks. Then I hit and hold them with my blood knights anf flank them with my black knights. Black knights could care less about the fancy 8th edition terrain. Rank rank, in da flank!

Commissar Vaughn
15-07-2011, 12:27
Im not seeing alot of maneuver, just lined up troops smash their faces out.


The warhammer rules dont really reward manouver. To slow...even with all the stuff that made it slower taken out. To predicatable too, even with random charges: Your opponent can still tell exactly where you'll be after a turn of moving, you cant suddenly spring an extra move on him or perform a move without him seeing you do it and have a unit appear somewhere unexpected. Other game systems allow this kind of suprise in the movement phase though theres usualy considerable risk attatched to it.

Listhammering is much easier, hence why a call for tactics results in frankly rediculous statements like "dont take cavalry cos its not optimal". :eyebrows: . Cavalry is cool, so Im still taking it. Its still good for turning a flank cos its the only thing in this game with any pace. And when it turns a flank it can break anything in its path.

I gave up trying to keep track of the metagame changes in WHFB years ago (most of them are interweb myths anyway). "This guy is so freaking hard he can kill you with his ears!" Who cares? "this unit is so powerful it makes people cry!" Dont give a rats butt ox. "this combo is so uber its already going out with your mum!" Right.

Whatever.

Fair do's.

Doesnt matter...cos you havnt kept a reserve, you arent watching your flanks, youve put all your eggs in one basket and my troops are running rings around you and about to smash every single one of them.

drear
15-07-2011, 13:15
magic:

take many smaller wizards with 1 bigger wizard. e.g 2 lvl 1-2 wizards and a lvl 4.
i find that having the lvl 4 in the centre, and then staggering the other wizards means i can cover nerly all my battleline with buffs or hexes.

running a life lvl 4 archmage in a big block, central, and 1-2 lvl 2 mages with light and beasts a unit or two away from teh centre means i can get buffs out or debuffs out easily to most units.

also never underestimate a lone wizard. ( it is always dependant on who you face) but somtimes running a wizard on his own means your able to hide behind units, or move out of charge arcs easier, than if they were attached to a block.

this may not be wise with a vampire genral or lich preist, but for somthing that will have 3-4 lvl1's flying around like goblins, having that flexiblit of movment is always useful.
especially when thigns hit combat, the wizards arnt bogged down and have less chance of being squished.

Hroth the Blooded
16-07-2011, 16:49
magic:


this may not be wise with a vampire genral or lich preist, but for somthing that will have 3-4 lvl1's flying around like goblins, having that flexiblit of movment is always useful.

Like someone on a disc of tzeentch? or would the true line of sight screw that up?

willowdark
17-07-2011, 04:12
I would say alot of fantasy games im seeing is a race to get into combat, with little shooting and magic reduced to augment/hex with the odd massive destruction spell throw in for luck.

Im not seeing alot of maneuver, just lined up troops smash their faces out.

YMMV

So don't play that game. I know it's easier said than done, since delaying combat means you suffer more shooting and magic, but with the right foresight you can really steal the advantage.

Controlling the movement phase is all about disguising your intentions. Depending on your army build you can advance the first turn to goad the enemy on, then withdraw the next and draw them into a favorable position. A good example would be like a collapsing flank, where lite cav and redirectors purposely avoid combat in a way that distracts the enemy flank advance and pulls it away from the main battle. Dark Elves are especially good at this because they can dish out magic and shooting to make up for the losses they suffer from it.

This is also where heavy cav really shines. Withdraw your main battle line turns 2 and 3 and send your heavy cav screaming up the flank. Good multi-attack cav like Chaos Knights, or even cheap ones like empire cav that can bring ranks and standard in at a low cost, can usually punch through supports and/or clean up shooters fast enough to swing around and threaten the rear. Now you have them surrounded and can start to charge.

Now, I know cav without a rank won't negate ranks, but supportive attacks don't go to the flank or rear. So, high AS cav with multiple attacks can still rack up huge kills without yielding many back.

daa6
17-07-2011, 05:03
Nothing to fancy... but

"dont know about everyone else" but "we" tend to mark out the depolyment zone at the start of the game... (thus letting eachother[I] know the distance between units...)

either [I]dont do this or purposfully make yours an inch short OR stagger your units OR place on angles ... that inch makes the differentce early on, a especially agains shooting!

(this was possible more important last issue, and charge range is now a bit more random.... and i think you can now pre-measure...?)

Still good to change things up tho... :evilgrin:

Algorath
18-07-2011, 04:07
This is also where heavy cav really shines. Withdraw your main battle line turns 2 and 3 and send your heavy cav screaming up the flank. Good multi-attack cav like Chaos Knights, or even cheap ones like empire cav that can bring ranks and standard in at a low cost, can usually punch through supports and/or clean up shooters fast enough to swing around and threaten the rear. Now you have them surrounded and can start to charge.

Now, I know cav without a rank won't negate ranks, but supportive attacks don't go to the flank or rear. So, high AS cav with multiple attacks can still rack up huge kills without yielding many back.

B*tches don't know 'bout my fanatics.:cool:

Seriously though I like the concept; it'd work well for anyone with access to cheap troops and good cavalry.

Hroth the Blooded
19-07-2011, 01:30
Do 6 point (basic) marauders count as cheap?

Don Zeko
19-07-2011, 06:50
So don't play that game. I know it's easier said than done, since delaying combat means you suffer more shooting and magic, but with the right foresight you can really steal the advantage.

Controlling the movement phase is all about disguising your intentions. Depending on your army build you can advance the first turn to goad the enemy on, then withdraw the next and draw them into a favorable position. A good example would be like a collapsing flank, where lite cav and redirectors purposely avoid combat in a way that distracts the enemy flank advance and pulls it away from the main battle. Dark Elves are especially good at this because they can dish out magic and shooting to make up for the losses they suffer from it.

This is also where heavy cav really shines. Withdraw your main battle line turns 2 and 3 and send your heavy cav screaming up the flank. Good multi-attack cav like Chaos Knights, or even cheap ones like empire cav that can bring ranks and standard in at a low cost, can usually punch through supports and/or clean up shooters fast enough to swing around and threaten the rear. Now you have them surrounded and can start to charge.

Now, I know cav without a rank won't negate ranks, but supportive attacks don't go to the flank or rear. So, high AS cav with multiple attacks can still rack up huge kills without yielding many back.

This is basically how I use my Necropolis Knights, but of course they don't need to run up the flank; they just appear behind it.

Hroth the Blooded
19-07-2011, 07:37
I also used necroknights, but i thought they were too valuable to risk to EBtS

ewar
20-07-2011, 12:53
One thing that always amazes me is the number of players who deploy as far forward as possible - even if you're a cc focussed army, deploy (at least) 0.5" back from the line, that way if your opponent gets the first turn all that 24" shooting has to move forward to be in range and incurs the extra -1 to hit.

Also - main tip - is just play the damned game. You will learn 10 times as much over a couple of games as the same amount of time spent on forums.

BrotherNefarius
20-07-2011, 14:44
Some things i figured out playing...

1. While building your list, try to keep some points for 1, better 2 'filler' unit. cheap ones that are 30-50ish points maximum. Deploy those 1st. Yes, you will mostly concede the +1 ini due to finish deploying 1st, but in exchange, your opponent will have to deploy 2 important units before you put any that matters. You will also be able to easily match characters vs characters (i play WoC, so that is important). It will be also easier to put up flankers. For example, you deploy both your filler units to the right of the board, he should either put his to the right or center. So leaving you the left part for your flankers.

2. Knights are good flankers, though expensive. They have mobility and armor, making them the most able to get to the flank with enough hitting power to cause a dent.

3. I also like keeping a small unit (my fillers for example) on the side, seeming harmless. I try to keep the filler in flanking position. On the turn of a charge by a nearby unit, it reforms to 1 wide. Then on the subsequent turn, the filler charges the same target, granting flanking and charge bonus, but only exposing 1 model. If you do this right and charge the 1st rank of the ennemy, he gets only 1 model to attack your filler, since the 1st rank have to attack in front. Not counting that you get a great +1 CR each turn that your unit is in the flank, and preventhing reforms.

Hroth the Blooded
22-07-2011, 00:32
You can't reform to the flank? I'm pretty sure you can, but thanks for all the other advice.

Djekar
22-07-2011, 11:41
You cannot reform if you are engaged on more than 1 front. So if you get a torpedo of quick, expendable troops in one side and a mack truck in the other, that unit is just stuck.

falcone
23-07-2011, 08:09
I would say alot of fantasy games im seeing is a race to get into combat, with little shooting and magic reduced to augment/hex with the odd massive destruction spell throw in for luck.

Im not seeing alot of maneuver, just lined up troops smash their faces out.

YMMV

The problem is many people, and all tournaments have a set number of turns. So you have to get to combat quickly or else the game ends without it happening. Try playing a game with no set number of turns, play until one side is destroyed. My main opponent and I spend much of the game maneuvering, if we only played 6 turns this way we would never see close combat.. You should see the battlefield after 4-5 hours of game play, there no longer is any resemblance to battle lines. Units scattered everywhere facing every which way.