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View Full Version : Slann-less Lizardmen or All Skink?



farmergiles
13-07-2011, 23:47
Has anyone managed to make a competitive list for Lizardmen that doesn't use the toad of death?

It just seems that every single LM list I see has to have a jacked up toad in it. Granted 8th Edition has balanced it out a bit, but even so, are LM really dependant on having Level 4 Toad Wizards? Can't several Skink Priests do the job with an Oldblood leading the pack............on a Carnosaur even?

Secondly, the book refers to an all-skink army and even gives tactics for it..........has anyone EVER managed to create and do well with an all-skink army? Granted you can get Stegadons and Salamanders which are both cool and I suppose Chamelon Skinks are awesome, but I'm not sure on the Kroxer's and skink melee units and heros/lords, really?

Frankly
14-07-2011, 08:38
I think its just that the Slann magic phase is just so awesome, its hard to leave him at home. Theres nothing wrong with taking other generals.

I've only ever played Southlands, for a few Editions now. They're a solid competitive list if you really work at the list. Its a build that can take advantage of all the turn phases which is over looked, pushing out alot in both the magic and shooting phases, plus strong mobility elements.The Combat phase is second to shooting and magic, but Southlands can push out a nice counter assault choice in Skrox units.

I don't play Steggies, I think the really big units are Salamanders; one of the best units against hordes and Chamies; best support unit against MW's and harrassment unit. Added to this a Shaow Slann and you can throw out a good amount of damage without engaging and/or before engaging.

farmergiles
14-07-2011, 09:52
It's sounding very promising to try Southlands even though I'll have to resort to a Slann in the list. Though I could convert a big skink on a platform that would be cool.

I like mobility in a list, magic and shooting I also prefer to combat, so far Southlands is sounding more fun than High Elves in that respect. It's hard to ignore though that collecting High Elves would be cheap as cheaps as correct me if I'm wrong, but Kroxigor, Salamanders and Chameleons are all metal still aren't they?

But if the list was fun, fluff and model wise, lizardmen own high elves.

Wonder how to make effective use of melee skinks though.............I recall someone on another site using the Lore of Light to good effect to make them WS/INIT 10......

The Marshel
14-07-2011, 10:05
even if they could go without the slann, he is just to good to leave at home. they add so much to the list that even if an old blood based army were viable, it would rarely be used over the slann

i think the real issue is in the skink priest. making them lv 2 is reasonably expensive, and there isn't much reason to have more then 1 because all they can use is lore of heavens. If you could have slightly cheaper lv 2 skink priest who could use some other lores like fire or light, having a lv 2 and 2 lv 1s might actually be half decent in place of a single slann, but alas it is just a wishlist

sninsch
14-07-2011, 10:24
The Slann is so awesome because he is 100 points undercosted. Against him all other magic casters look weak(witch is good from a fluff perspective but the costs need to be balanced).
A southland list works fine, the damage output is massiv. A lot of poison darts to kill big things and salamanders cover the hordes very well. But don't run into combats you can't win.
Skink priest pay 35 for the second level, as most wizards do. Thats ok, but GW should have give some more lores to choose from.

Spiney Norman
14-07-2011, 10:35
The Slann is so awesome because he is 100 points undercosted.

Lol, OTT much. The basic slann is costed fine, its the disciplines which are slightly unbalanced, theres a reason why you only really see rumination, loremaster and becalming cog.

Frankly
14-07-2011, 10:50
...., but Kroxigor, Salamanders and Chameleons are all metal still aren't they?


Wonder how to make effective use of melee skinks though........

I build alot of my own models. I built 9 kroxigors out of black ork bodies and weapons and Saurus cavalry heads and tails. That was easy as hell. I did have an extra head and bits laying around, but still easy easy easy to do. Very cheap.

I then built 6 salamanders out of Nidz termigant torso's, the coldones front and hind legs, the heads and tails from the saurus riders + lots of green stuff. This wasn't so easy. But so so cheap. Looking back on it, I should have just modelled the bodies out of green stuff, it would have been easier.

Some of the cheapest units I've ever made.

Chamies can just be re-modelled skinks.

In Skrox units, skinks are there for rank and file, supporting with steadfast for example, the key thing to remember here, is that no-one can touch your kroxs in combat, so your always swinging those 9 str6 attacks. Again its not the perfect unit, but its effective on the counter attack, its mobile, its fluffy :).

Personally after trying alot of lores, I've desided to go Shadows, its amazingly effective with the play style of a mobile shooting list, great de.buffs really push your ranged damage through the roof.

farmergiles
14-07-2011, 11:00
Not sure my artistic skills are quite up to heavy conversions. I know someone who substituted two cold ones with skinks on in place of a kroxigor, that was a neat idea.

The salamander one sounds a bit....messy, but perhaps cold ones could be converted for the purpose as well.

Frankly
14-07-2011, 11:22
I've been modelling for about 20 years and I can tell you that the Kroxigors could be done by anyone. The salamanders took me a few days just to get the concept right, I had a lot problems, but the claws and the actual salamander looking head of the saurus meant I had to give it ago. :)

farmergiles
14-07-2011, 13:08
Slann Mage Priest
Skink Priest
2x Scar Veteran on cold one (1 has the Battle Standard)
10 Skinks with blowpipes
10 Skinks with blowpipes
10 Skinks with blowpipes
24 Saurus Warriors, with spears
7 Chameleon Skinks
Stegadon (Engine of the Gods option)
Stegadon (Engine of the Gods option)
Stegadon (Engine of the Gods option)
3 Razordons with crew
3 Salamanders with crew

Just noticed someone selling this recently all very nicely painted. Not sure it looks particularly viable as a list having so many big things and from what I can tell it's illegal for 8th Edition anyway given the large amount of rares (3 ancient stegadons + salamanders. Probably why it's been sold to be honest.

Nickthebear
14-07-2011, 13:28
were did you see that for sale?

sninsch
14-07-2011, 13:38
Lol, OTT much. The basic slann is costed fine, its the disciplines which are slightly unbalanced, theres a reason why you only really see rumination, loremaster and becalming cog.

I'm sorry but 275 points for a slaan is fair??? A standard mage(empire wizard with the same lore choices) with 4 levels cost around 210 points. So the slaan gets for 65:

4+ ward save
+1T
+2W
an leadership value of 9(which is very important, because he often is your general)
a discipline(most people take the bonus energie dice, this ability allone should be 75+ ponits)
can cast through skink priests and can be save in close combat

I think thats a lot stuff for 65 points. Please don't argue that point cost can't be compared. Sure some things have to be a little cheaper or cost more in some armies but roughly the points represent the efficiency of a model.

Sorry for offtopic discussion!

sninsch
14-07-2011, 14:11
I've been modelling for about 20 years and I can tell you that the Kroxigors could be done by anyone. The salamanders took me a few days just to get the concept right, I had a lot problems, but the claws and the actual salamander looking head of the saurus meant I had to give it ago. :)

I would love to see some pictures of the kroxigor and salamander conversion =).

MOMUS
15-07-2011, 05:52
I play a southlands/all skink army although i do have a slann. I think he could be replaced with a priest on stegadon and the Lord skink choice.
Failing that Tettoekko and a couple of cheap piests (cube of darkness maybe feedback or dispell scroll).
Yes skink lists have great mobility, but with bigger horde lists being more common in 8th you will find yourself being 'boxed in'.
Due to this im thinking of changing my list to a 'dragon isles' army, no slann, all tough stuff.
Check my battle log for updates

Wazdak
15-07-2011, 08:15
It's viable, I run an all skink army, but I'm not sure if it's "tournament" competetive. Certainly the new FAQ preventing Skink/Kroxigor units from getting stomped/thunderstomped helps.

I do certainly agree that you're making hard work for yourself by not taking a Slaan, but I like themed lists so I'm sticking to mine. It's had a fair bit of success in the gaming group I play, and we're all 10+ years veterans of wargaming.

I can post my list if you want?

Momus, I wasn't aware there was a skink Lord choice (though it's been a few months since I looked at the army book!)

Vsurma
15-07-2011, 10:08
I'm sorry but 275 points for a slaan is fair??? A standard mage(empire wizard with the same lore choices) with 4 levels cost around 210 points. So the slaan gets for 65:

4+ ward save
+1T
+2W
an leadership value of 9(which is very important, because he often is your general)
a discipline(most people take the bonus energie dice, this ability allone should be 75+ ponits)
can cast through skink priests and can be save in close combat

I think thats a lot stuff for 65 points. Please don't argue that point cost can't be compared. Sure some things have to be a little cheaper or cost more in some armies but roughly the points represent the efficiency of a model.

Sorry for offtopic discussion!

As a lizardman player myself I would say the slann is pretty much the best model in the game point for point. (hydra coming 2nd)

315pts buys you a ld10 general/bsb lv4 mage with 1 ancient dicipline. It is crazy good.

The reason you don't see good lizardmen lists without a slann is because the slann is so damn good. Also skink mages have lore of heavens with is probably the worst lore in the game!

Even if you wanted to not have a slann and you wanted some magic defence you will end up spending 200 pts on 2 skink priests with scroll/cube etc.

Slann with cogitation is so much cheaper, especially if you plan on taking a bsb.

Frankly
15-07-2011, 11:49
I would love to see some pictures of the kroxigor and salamander conversion =).

will do, once I get my camera replaced.

@Wazdak, I'd like to see your list if possible, I'll post mine as well. It'll be nice to see what other people are playing for southland list.

Wazdak
15-07-2011, 16:09
Frankly, here is the list I run (1,500pts):

Skink Priest
Lvl 2

24 Skinks
Standard
Musician
3 Kroxigors

24 Skinks
Standard
Musician
3 Kroxigors

Stegadon

Stegadon

5 Chameleon Skinks

5 Chameleon Skinks

5 Chameleon Skinks

Salamander

Salamander

It works ok. I used to have Terradons in the army, but found them pretty useless. I don't reckon much to the skink priest, but I can't afford not to have the +2 to dispel with all my opponents having level 4 wizards...

MOMUS
15-07-2011, 21:29
Momus, I wasn't aware there was a skink Lord choice (though it's been a few months since I looked at the army book!)

Tehenhauin, hes got the lore of beasts. I would much prefer if tettoekko was a lord choice though.

Wazdak
15-07-2011, 23:19
Ah yes, thanks for reminding me! He's way overcosted as well, most of the charaters are imo.

Frankly
19-07-2011, 09:01
Thanks for posting your list Wazdak!

Do you have trouble with alot of cannons at 1500pts?

Wazdak
19-07-2011, 09:26
I don't play many armies with cannons in, so no. Not that I'm saying I wouldn't have issues with them. How many cannons is "a lot"? I would imagine the Chameleon Skinks could make a dent in some of them...

Frankly
19-07-2011, 10:19
Shadow Slann

10 skinks skirmishers

10 skinks skirmishers

20 skink cohorts

24 x Skinks
3 x Kroxs
FC

24 x Skinks
3 x Kroxs
FC

24 x Skinks
3 x Kroxs
FC

10 Chameleon Skinks

10 Chameleon Skinks

10 Chameleon Skinks

3 x Salamander

3 x Salamander


So this is my basic set up. its more focused on the movement, ranged and magic phases then combat.

MOMUS
19-07-2011, 19:55
Shadow Slann

10 skinks skirmishers

10 skinks skirmishers

20 skink cohorts

24 x Skinks
3 x Kroxs
FC

24 x Skinks
3 x Kroxs
FC

24 x Skinks
3 x Kroxs
FC

10 Chameleon Skinks

10 Chameleon Skinks

10 Chameleon Skinks

3 x Salamander

3 x Salamander


So this is my basic set up. its more focused on the movement, ranged and magic phases then combat.

Nice list!
I would take some terradons instead of a camo skink squad just to give you some more options, also take a couple of bare bones priests or chiefs to take advantage of the free 'teleport' with the lore of shadows.

thesheriff
19-07-2011, 23:18
My all skink army wins 60% of games in a semi-competative enviroment. It does use a slann however (so you would probably call it a "no-saurus army then"). Rough list;

Slaan, Loremaster, ethereal, rumination, BC, BSB, Cupped hands, Lore of shadow
Priest w. Cube
5 units of 10 javelin skirmishers w. Champs
1 unit of 10 Blowpipe skirmishers
8 chameleons
2 Stegs
Ancient
2 salamanders, 4 crew each

Total = 2k

Reduce T + Salamanders is brutal, and using Steed if shadows gets him around fast too.

And the comment of a slaan being coted fairly;
275pts basic
-free discipline = 50pts
-4++ = 45pts
-lv.4 upgrade (from lv.3) = 35pts

...Means your paying 140pts for an cold bloodled empire wizard on a palanquin witn +2 wounds, +1 T. Yeah, fair!

thesheriff

Frankly
19-07-2011, 23:43
Nice list!
I would take some terradons instead of a camo skink squad just to give you some more options, also take a couple of bare bones priests or chiefs to take advantage of the free 'teleport' with the lore of shadows.

I've fooled around with terradons, I think they're better than alot of people give them credit for. I wouldn't drop chammies for them in this list, its all about damage output over utilitiy at the moment. Its important that I throw out as many dice and damage on turn 2-3 as possible and table my opponants models to free up table area for mobility. I don't want to get into to many combats. I've got alot of terradons gathering duct of the shelf so no doubt they'll get some game time in the future.

I've run priests in the list and still do if I get the points too, usually I've have one in as support, although I haven't found the teleporting useful at the moment. Its ost likely something I have too work on.

Frankly
19-07-2011, 23:48
It does use a slann however (so you would probably call it a "no-saurus army then"). Rough list;



I personally think slanns are a fluffy choice for Skink list, maybe not southlands so much, but in something like a 'temple city builder' themed list, I think its very fluffy that a 'monk slann' and his 'temple builders' would defend their hidden temple homes together.

:)

thesheriff
20-07-2011, 00:02
I personally think slanns are a fluffy choice for Skink list, maybe not southlands so much, but in something like a 'temple city builder' themed list, I think its very fluffy that a 'monk slann' and his 'temple builders' would defend their hidden temple homes together.

:)

That is my school of thought. Also, with no temple guard or saurus, it's not as bad as a lizard list could be.