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darheresy
15-07-2011, 10:22
With the new book some questions have risen about the hatred dwarfs feel against greenskin.

1. Does dwarfs hate squigs in a herd beacause there are goblins in the unit?

2. Does dwarfs hate a wyvern because its has a orc as a rider?

3. Does dwarfs hate chariots that ar ridden by orc or goblins? You use the ws of the crew but the toughness of the chariot.

4. Does dwarfs hate the Arachnarok Spider because it has a goblin crew? Note that you can not attack the crew, just the spider.

In the case of cavallary its clear since the main rulebook says you strike the rider (thats why we use the toughness value of the rider) and therefore dwarfs have hatred against these modells. But in the other cases you either choose which one you strike aginst or you can only strike aginst the monster that the goblins use.

In the case of the chariot its kind of a split so I want to hear what you guys think.

It would be easier if the dwarfs hated the entire army but they don't, so where do you draw the line?

T10
15-07-2011, 11:09
It seems reasonable that when you fight a model that consists of orc or goblin riders or crew that cannot be targeted separately from their mount, the the dwarf's Hatred rule will apply. If the dwarf attack something that clearly is not an orc or a goblin, e.g. the wyvern, then the Hatred rule should not apply.

-T10

darheresy
15-07-2011, 23:37
It seems reasonable that when you fight a model that consists of orc or goblin riders or crew that cannot be targeted separately from their mount, the the dwarf's Hatred rule will apply. If the dwarf attack something that clearly is not an orc or a goblin, e.g. the wyvern, then the Hatred rule should not apply.

-T10

But if the dwarfs get re-rolls against the spider because they can't hit the crew, what happens if a goblin shaman choose the spider as a mount? Does that mean that the dwarf does not get rerolls against the spider since they can attack the shaman, just like in the case of the wyvern? The spider is not a greenskin just like the wyvern. What happens if the shaman dies? Does the dwarf get rerolls against the spider then? Does the same applies with chariots? If a character is on a chariot, dwarf does not hate the chariot but if he dies they begin to hate it?

If I understand the conditions in the dwarf rulebook, they just hate the greenskins and not any of the beasts and monsters they employ.

In that case it should be like this

1. Does dwarfs hate squigs in a herd beacause there are goblins in the unit? No, they hate the goblins so if they attack goblins they get re-rolls and not against the squigs as a squig is not a greenskin

2. Does dwarfs hate a wyvern because its has an orc as a rider?
No, since the wyvern is not a greenskin

3. Does dwarfs hate chariots that are ridden by orcs or goblins? You use the ws of the crew but the toughness of the chariot.
Yes, since they hit against the crews WS it is reasonable to say they attack the crew atleast partially and they should get rerolls.

4. Does dwarfs hate the Arachnarok Spider because it has a goblin crew? Note that you can not attack the crew, just the spider.
No, since they roll to hit at the spiders WS and roll to wound on the spiders T. They fight the battle against the spider who is not a greenskin. If it have a goblin shaman on top, then attacks can be located against the shaman as normal and then Dwarf get re-rolls.

T10
16-07-2011, 01:08
Unlike most other "howdah" units (e.g. the Stegadon or the Necrosphinx), taking the Arachnarok as a mount for a Goblin Great Shaman does not replace all the crew. That spider is still crawling with Goblins.

darheresy
16-07-2011, 07:18
Unlike most other "howdah" units (e.g. the Stegadon or the Necrosphinx), taking the Arachnarok as a mount for a Goblin Great Shaman does not replace all the crew. That spider is still crawling with Goblins.

I do not have the Tomb Kings book so I do not know about the sphinx but with the stegadon there are still plenty of skinks left even if you take it as a monster mount. So in that case, if you hate skinks you hate the stegadon also?

As long as you don't count the spider as a greenskin, dwarf can not have re-rolls against it.

AlphariusOmegon20
16-07-2011, 18:18
But if the dwarfs get re-rolls against the spider because they can't hit the crew, what happens if a goblin shaman choose the spider as a mount? Does that mean that the dwarf does not get rerolls against the spider since they can attack the shaman, just like in the case of the wyvern? The spider is not a greenskin just like the wyvern. What happens if the shaman dies? Does the dwarf get rerolls against the spider then? Does the same applies with chariots? If a character is on a chariot, dwarf does not hate the chariot but if he dies they begin to hate it?

If I understand the conditions in the dwarf rulebook, they just hate the greenskins and not any of the beasts and monsters they employ.

In that case it should be like this

1. Does dwarfs hate squigs in a herd beacause there are goblins in the unit? No, they hate the goblins so if they attack goblins they get re-rolls and not against the squigs as a squig is not a greenskin

2. Does dwarfs hate a wyvern because its has an orc as a rider?
No, since the wyvern is not a greenskin

3. Does dwarfs hate chariots that are ridden by orcs or goblins? You use the ws of the crew but the toughness of the chariot.
Yes, since they hit against the crews WS it is reasonable to say they attack the crew atleast partially and they should get rerolls.

4. Does dwarfs hate the Arachnarok Spider because it has a goblin crew? Note that you can not attack the crew, just the spider.
No, since they roll to hit at the spiders WS and roll to wound on the spiders T. They fight the battle against the spider who is not a greenskin. If it have a goblin shaman on top, then attacks can be located against the shaman as normal and then Dwarf get re-rolls.


I would argue that because you can not target the goblins separately from the spider, then you'd get re-rolls against the spider. There are goblins on it's back and both together are considered to be a single model.


Only if there is a character on it would the re-rolls shift from the spider, which you would now not get the re-rolls against, to the character, which you would get them against.

T10
16-07-2011, 21:27
I do not have the Tomb Kings book so I do not know about the sphinx but with the stegadon there are still plenty of skinks left even if you take it as a monster mount. So in that case, if you hate skinks you hate the stegadon also?

As long as you don't count the spider as a greenskin, dwarf can not have re-rolls against it.

My bad. I seem to recall that there was an issue with the Skink chief replacing all the crew, thus rendering the Great Bow useless. But that may have been the previous Lizardmen book. Or just my imagination.

Anyways, the Skink crew are attacked separately from the Stegadon.

With Arachnarok model you treat the spider and the crew as a single model - an Arachnarok with a single wound still has 8 Goblin crew on it.

wingate32
17-07-2011, 21:10
So, we can assume that if you hate a part of a model (greenskins in this case) and you can't attack it you hate the entire model. If you hate Humans you would also get re-rolls against the Steamtank due to the Engineer inside.

That works for me. But then again, I am a Dwarf player...;)

DutchJunkie
17-07-2011, 21:25
It sounds kinda strange to me. Shouldn't the Dwarfs have rerolls against anything that contains greenskins? Including the ridden Wyvern, Arachnarok and Squig herd. That sounds better to me ...

darheresy
23-07-2011, 12:53
The spider is clearly a unique case since we have nothing to compare to in this case. closest is the steamtank but it does not matter since you always hit anyway. :)

As I have stated before you attack the spider and not the crew, and that will not give the dwarfs re-rolls since the spider itself is not a greenskin. However, the spider and crew is treated as a single modell. When the spider flee from combat it does not give panic to orcs since there is a goblin crew so the goblins give there pro ability to the spider so you could say the midgets get re-rolls since maybe the goblins give their drawback to the monster.

It is clearly written in the O&G book that the spider does not give panick to orcs but it does not clearly proves that dwarves should get the hatred rule.
I am not convinced with either way at the moment. It is all a question of how GW intended it to be. I'm leaning against what I have said earlier, but it's not clear how you should rule in the question.

russellmoo
23-07-2011, 21:46
The reason the dwarf army book states that dwarfs hate greenskins- is actually to make the rule more inclusive not less- at the time the dwarf book was created other armies, besides O&G could still field greenskin models- the rule was meant to apply to not just models in the O&G armybook, but also gnoblars, hobgoblins, etc.

The rule also applies to the "model" the dwarf is fighting that contains the greenskin- so the rule applies to any monster ridden by a greenskin, any mount ridden by a greenskin, because they gain hatred by virtue of the fact that the opposing model contains a greenskin-

The rule for hatred is interesting, it states that, "A model striking a hated foe. . ." If you look for "striking" in the BRB you come across a section entitled "Who Can Strike" it then details what models can fight in close combat, what this amounts to is that you gain hatred not just from being in base contact but if it is an enemy you could "strike"- hence supporting attacks, horde, additional ranks, etc. also benefit from hatred, as long as you could have struck a hated model you get hatred

Think of it this way- the mere sight of a "greenskin" enrages a dwarf- so while that model is being ridden by a greenskin the dwarf has hatred-

This would mean also that no hatred against squigs, just against the handlers.

So in order
1 No, just the handlers
2 Yes, until the orc is dead.
3 Yes
4 Yes

darheresy
23-07-2011, 22:56
I see your point but in the dwarf rulebook it's says nothing about a model containing greenskins, it's says greenskins of any description. It's says nothing that the dwarfs would hate there mounts.

In the case of the wyvern then the dwarf hates the rider and not the mount itself. The real question is the spider since its a combine model without any means of attacking the crew.

Additionally, now mounts don't get hatred from there riders so why would hatred work the other way around? Hating a rider gives you hatred for his/her mount?

If you think about it fluff wise then I see it more like a dwarf gusch out his hatred if he get's a chance to crush a greenskin with his hammer or axe. Fighting his mount is secondary and a dwarf rarely see it worth his time if he only get a chance at the mount.

But I guess discussing rules is all part of the game and how you see things on the battlefield.

H33D
23-07-2011, 22:58
Trolls are the only unit in the O&G book that Dwarfs do not hate AFAIK. Squig Herds are still a goblin unit, and when the goblins are gone the Squigs die off so there is never a point where it is not a goblin unit. Everything else either has goblins, snotlings, or orcs in the unit or riding a mount in the unit.

The Arachnarok is a goblin unit and the Wyvern is an orc unit (until it loses its rider).

darheresy
24-07-2011, 10:54
Trolls are the only unit in the O&G book that Dwarfs do not hate AFAIK. Squig Herds are still a goblin unit, and when the goblins are gone the Squigs die off so there is never a point where it is not a goblin unit. Everything else either has goblins, snotlings, or orcs in the unit or riding a mount in the unit.

The Arachnarok is a goblin unit and the Wyvern is an orc unit (until it loses its rider).

Why is it like that? Where did you find it in the rules?

wingate32
24-07-2011, 14:59
Why is it like that? Where did you find it in the rules?

It contains Orcs or Goblins, that's why. It doesn't need to be written. No more then cold one cavalry is a DE unit or giant rats a skaven unit.

darheresy
24-07-2011, 15:47
Seems I have to be more precise. Where does it say that hatred is shared with the entire unit? If you hate a model in a unit you hate the entire unit? So in an allied battle you put an orc hero in a unit of chaos warriors, dwars hate the entire unit?

wingate32
24-07-2011, 16:55
Seems I have to be more precise. Where does it say that hatred is shared with the entire unit? If you hate a model in a unit you hate the entire unit? So in an allied battle you put an orc hero in a unit of chaos warriors, dwars hate the entire unit?

They don't. Either they have hatred and hates everybody or they hate a specific foe, p71 BRB. A infantry unit consisting of WoC and a Orc Warboss would only grant re-rolls for the Warboss.

As Russellmoo says, the rule is intended to be inclusive, "all greenskins of any description" and therefore should you hate rather than not hate. I argue that the point here of importance is if it's a combined model or a single model. Cavalry and the spider is a single model which both contains greenskins. Squigherders and Orc warboss on a wyvern is combined models.

Dwarves hate: Spiderriders, Squighoppers, Goblins, Orcs, Fanatics, Arachnarok.
Dwarves don't hate: Wyverns, Squigs, Trolls, Giants.

Sounds fair to me... but then again could you also argue that the wyvern actually is a greenskin ;) It's unique to O&G, it's green and it's got a bad temper, what more would it take for it to become a greenskin?

Heeros
25-07-2011, 06:50
They don't. Either they have hatred and hates everybody or they hate a specific foe, p71 BRB. A infantry unit consisting of WoC and a Orc Warboss would only grant re-rolls for the Warboss.
Seconded! This is more of a unit selection question. An orc joining goblins wouldn´t make the goblins orcs, or the orc a goblin :D



As Russellmoo says, the rule is intended to be inclusive, "all greenskins of any description" and therefore should you hate rather than not hate. I argue that the point here of importance is if it's a combined model or a single model. Cavalry and the spider is a single model which both contains greenskins. Squigherders and Orc warboss on a wyvern is combined models.

Dwarves hate: Spiderriders, Squighoppers, Goblins, Orcs, Fanatics, Arachnarok.
Dwarves don't hate: Wyverns, Squigs, Trolls, Giants.


The rule is poorly written for RAW, but this is exactly how I see it and how we play it in our gaming group. The main problem here is the brand spanking new Arachanok. When the dwarf rule was written there were no goblincrawling-superspiders-of-doom, so they didn´t mention this in the rule. IMO gw should definately FAQ this (no kidding!) :D
But for now, just use the most important rule if you have arguments on the re-rolls against the arachanok.

IGoblinego
25-07-2011, 11:58
However it is, Haters are gonna hate.

Dragonreaver
25-07-2011, 19:32
I'm relieved that the last few posts happened, because when I logged off last night I was about to ragepost but thought better of it. :p

The Spider Riders didn't exist when the latest Dwarf AB was published (let alone the Arachnarok!). That's why they're not mentioned. They're CLEARLY A Goblin unit, ridden by Goblins. And as with the Squid hoppers, they're Cavalry, so they can at no point during the game cease to be ridden by Goblins, neither can you target the Squig or the Spider. Therefore, they're Greenskins for the purposes of hatred. Just as Orc Boarboyz are (I've never heard anyone try and claim that a Dwarf doesn't hate the Boar...).

If an Orc Warboss is in a Chaos Unit, only the Warboss is hated. Pretty obvious, that one. Chaos units are not Greenskins. Not even if you paint 'em weirdly.

The only place where I see any possible confusion is with Ridden Monsters (Warboss on Wyveryn, for example). Do attacks against the Wyvern count for Hatred while the Warboss is still alive? I (as a Dwarf player, incidentally) would assume that attacks specifically against the monster DON'T get a re-roll (if you really hate the thing on it's back, and are able to attack it, I don't believe you should get a re-roll against the monster if you CHOOSE to attack the monster instead! You obviously don't hate this particular Orc all that much, do you?). But if I was playing Greenskins AGAINST Dwarfs (in some bizzare reverso-universe) I wouldn't really argue if my opponent thought otherwise.

At the end of the day, until it's errata'd or a new book comes out which explains it better, this situation could be resolved either way without breaking any rules. And there's an equally good argument the other way (the Dwarf, being short, is merely hacking the Warboss down to size, and therefore should hate the Wyvern as the Wyvern is in the way of him crossing off one of his many grudges).

But Goblin CAVALRY is a Greenskin model, because the BRB explicitly says that they are to be counted as one model, and can never function separately during the game.

To be fair, I have little clue what an Araknok is, and have never played against Lizzies, so I don't know much about the rules concerning howdah-type units. If the goblins cannot be targeted separately though, I'd rule that it was a Greenskin unit, just like cavalry. If they CAN be targeted separately, we're back into Ridden Monster territory.

darheresy
25-07-2011, 22:42
According the rules hatred says that if you strike a hated foe you get re-rolls. So in case of dwarfs it's "Striking a greenskin."



The Spider Riders didn't exist when the latest Dwarf AB was published (let alone the Arachnarok!). That's why they're not mentioned. They're CLEARLY A Goblin unit, ridden by Goblins. And as with the Squid hoppers, they're Cavalry, so they can at no point during the game cease to be ridden by Goblins, neither can you target the Squig or the Spider. Therefore, they're Greenskins for the purposes of hatred. Just as Orc Boarboyz are (I've never heard anyone try and claim that a Dwarf doesn't hate the Boar...).


But Goblin CAVALRY is a Greenskin model, because the BRB explicitly says that they are to be counted as one model, and can never function separately during the game.

Cavalry is pretty easy since you always strike the rider (even if the attacker is short) so there is no question here. Dwarf gains re-rolls



If an Orc Warboss is in a Chaos Unit, only the Warboss is hated. Pretty obvious, that one. Chaos units are not Greenskins. Not even if you paint 'em weirdly.

If we all can agree on this simple matter, we can also agree that the night goblins in the squig unit does not make dwarf hate squigs. You do not hate an entire unit even if you hate a part of it.


The only place where I see any possible confusion is with Ridden Monsters (Warboss on Wyveryn, for example). Do attacks against the Wyvern count for Hatred while the Warboss is still alive? I (as a Dwarf player, incidentally) would assume that attacks specifically against the monster DON'T get a re-roll (if you really hate the thing on it's back, and are able to attack it, I don't believe you should get a re-roll against the monster if you CHOOSE to attack the monster instead! You obviously don't hate this particular Orc all that much, do you?). But if I was playing Greenskins AGAINST Dwarfs (in some bizzare reverso-universe) I wouldn't really argue if my opponent thought otherwise.

This is quite clear to me aswell. If you choose to strike a monster instead of the hated greenskin on top why would that grant a re-roll? However, everyone plays the game as they see fit so if you both decide on it it's all good.


And there's an equally good argument the other way (the Dwarf, being short, is merely hacking the Warboss down to size, and therefore should hate the Wyvern as the Wyvern is in the way of him crossing off one of his many grudges).
:confused: Their size does not hinder them in any way to attack the orc so why would there size matter?


To be fair, I have little clue what an Araknok is, and have never played against Lizzies, so I don't know much about the rules concerning howdah-type units. If the goblins cannot be targeted separately though, I'd rule that it was a Greenskin unit, just like cavalry. If they CAN be targeted separately, we're back into Ridden Monster territory.

Here is the real question since you don't strike the goblins but it's a combined model with no way of harming the goblins. It's a brand new type of modell in this case and the RAW support that they do not have hatred since they strike the spider and not the greenskins but is it intended that way? It's not a cavalry modell so it doesn't go by the same rules. And it's not a ridden monster either so in a way it's very unique.

Xisor
25-07-2011, 23:19
I'm inclined to side with Dragonreaver's stance here.

Having said that, I'm tempted by the vastly more lore-based (than rule-based) slant which might go like this:
"You hate the greenskins, so you hate things even associated with greenskins (even though, deep down, you know they're not greenskin)."

It's a thing of pride: you'd hate the wyvvern because it's horrid enough to be ridden by an orc; that's enough to attack it.

Moreover, there's the case of randomisation/equal opportunity: you might not be in a position to attack the object of your hate because some contemptible squig is standing in your way. To that extent (and contrary to the 'strike a hated foe' interpretation), you'd be 'hateful' because of their proximity, because you're trying to strike them (and there's a squig in the way).

Nevertheless, aside from tantalising temptations, I don't think that line of argument carries much weight, thus I'd (again) side with where you seem to have arrived.

As it is 'abstracted' that the goblins and arachnarok are part of the same model, I'd say you get hatred. The arachnarok has made its bed with goblins/is wearing a goblin jacket...you're at risk of hitting that; it's an aggregate model that has goblins as ingredients.

To put a slight converse: consider an arachnarok/wyvvern taken as a Storm of Magic bound monster. They've nothing to do with greenskins in this case (unless taken by a O&G army, but even then): they're 'of independent means' and thus wouldn't, IMO, qualify for Hatred.

(Notably this wouldn't affect the profile of the arachnarok, merely whether it's hated or not.)

That said, a blanket FAQ thing might say "If it's in the O&G book, it's greenskin for this purpose", which can be reasoned too (haters gonna hate, and dwarfs can hate by the most pedantic means imaginable!).

To that extent I find the most sensible answers have already been outlined, but it'd be mighty helpful for GW to actually FAQ it (as it could/can be reasoned either direction without jumping through especially difficult hoops).

wingate32
25-07-2011, 23:19
Here is the real question since you don't strike the goblins but it's a combined model with no way of harming the goblins. It's a brand new type of modell in this case and the RAW support that they do not have hatred since they strike the spider and not the greenskins but is it intended that way? It's not a cavalry modell so it doesn't go by the same rules. And it's not a ridden monster either so in a way it's very unique.

It isn't that unique, it's a monster-type unit which consists of both Goblins and a big frikkin' spider. A spider-goblin monster, therefore half a greenskin. :p

So, as we stated before isn't there any clear way to RAW this so that only leaves RAI, which in my opinion, should include squigs and Arachnarok. Almost always hatred is for every foe and I wouldn't be suprised if the next dwarf AB grants them re-rolls against "All units from the O&G armybook". Better to be inclusive then exclusive in this case I would say.

Dragonreaver
25-07-2011, 23:26
If we all can agree on this simple matter, we can also agree that the night goblins in the squig unit does not make dwarf hate squigs. You do not hate an entire unit even if you hate a part of it.

Being unfamiliar with the unit in question, I'd agree with you. If there is a unit which includes both Goblins and Squigs, and both can be targeted seperately, Dwarfs don't get rerolls against the Squigs.


:confused: Their size does not hinder them in any way to attack the orc so why would there size matter?

That was intended tongue-in-cheek (humorously) and to be fair probably doesn't belong in rules discussions. ¬_¬ But the fact remains that there's a Greenskin riding the monster, so there remains an argument that the Dwarf would hate the monster too while the Greenskin rides it. Not saying I agree with that (I don't, as stated previously), just playing Devil's advocate for a bit and seeing where the opposing view comes from.



Here is the real question since you don't strike the goblins but it's a combined model with no way of harming the goblins. It's a brand new type of modell in this case and the RAW support that they do not have hatred since they strike the spider and not the greenskins but is it intended that way? It's not a cavalry modell so it doesn't go by the same rules. And it's not a ridden monster either so in a way it's very unique.

I'd argue that it's a monster containing Greenskins. So the fact you can't target the monster separately, in a way, makes it a Greenskin unit for the purposes of Hatred. But I can see the opposing argument; it's the Spider itself you're physically doing damage to, and that's not a Greenskin.



Nobody except Pete Haines really knows whether the intention was to include every O&G unit, or to specifically leave out things like ridden monsters. So until the new book comes out and hopefully solves this riddle, we'll have to go with RAW, which would seem to imply that Ridden Monsters aren't hated, only their riders.

The Araknarok problem is still up in the air, though. You can't target the Greenskins separately, which points me towards Dwarfs hating the entire model because it has Goblins on it. But you don't actually harm the Goblins themselves in close combat, which could be taken to mean the opposite.

Incidentally, I sort of agree with both Wingate and Xisor. I don't think the actual intention of the rules WAS to include every unit from the O&G Army Book. It's really clumsily written at best, but even more so if THAT was the intention!
However, I do believe that the next Dwarf book WILL have that rule, just to make things like this easier to clear up. It makes sense, too. Trolls are ASSOCIATED with the Greenskins horde. So they should be hated just as much. Just like Harpies are associated with Dark Elves, so High Elves should hate them too (I have no idea what the High Elf wording is. Or if they even still hate Dark Elves at all).

IMHO, anything taken from the O&G Army Book should be hated by Dwarfs. Including more universal things like Giants (but only IF they're taken as a choice from the O&G army book. A Dwarf wouldn't hate a giant in an Empire army, for instance).

However, that's not how things work right now, so this discussion is still pertinent.

darheresy
25-07-2011, 23:45
It isn't that unique, it's a monster-type unit which consists of both Goblins and a big frikkin' spider. A spider-goblin monster, therefore half a greenskin. :p

So, as we stated before isn't there any clear way to RAW this so that only leaves RAI, which in my opinion, should include squigs and Arachnarok. Almost always hatred is for every foe and I wouldn't be suprised if the next dwarf AB grants them re-rolls against "All units from the O&G armybook". Better to be inclusive then exclusive in this case I would say.

It is unique since it is the only monster in the game that has a riding crew and the monster is not a ridden monster. It just go by rules of monster.

The rules says that if you strike a hated foe you get hatred. So Dwarf will get hatred if they strike against greenskins of any description. Period. The spider is not a greenskin so hatred would not apply since you are not striking a greenskin but the spider itself. But it is a combined model and that gives room to argument to how it should be played out.

When the rule was written I am pretty sure the O&G had trolls and giants in there army and there is no including them in the hatred rule for dwarfs. MAYBE in the next book they will hate the entire army but how can we be sure? And why guess what they meant or will mean in the next book if we can not prove it rule-wise?

Dragonreaver
25-07-2011, 23:53
When the rule was written I am pretty sure the O&G had trolls and giants in there army and there is no including them in the hatred rule for dwarfs. MAYBE in the next book they will hate the entire army but how can we be sure? And why guess what they meant or will mean in the next book if we can not prove it rule-wise?

Now THAT, I agree with entirely.

Xisor
26-07-2011, 04:22
When the rule was written I am pretty sure the O&G had trolls and giants in there army and there is no including them in the hatred rule for dwarfs. MAYBE in the next book they will hate the entire army but how can we be sure? And why guess what they meant or will mean in the next book if we can not prove it rule-wise?

Why guess?

Because it's useful to be readily able to reason beyond the limit of the written rule (and we're quite agreed: Arachnarok is treading new, argument-instigating territory) when you have to discuss it with someone face-to-face in the hope of avoiding them just packing up and going home in despair at our inability to guess at the meaning.

I'd say that's why.

Again, to restate: Arachnarok is "Spider + Goblins", whilst a Shaman-riding-a-super-giant-spider-ridden-monster is "Shaman" + "Spider". You get to attack "Goblin" or "Spider". In that case.

In Arachnarok's case you get to attack "Spider + Goblins"...or not. That's your choice. So, RAW, is attacking a "Spider + Goblins" attacking a greenskin of some description? (That description being the prefix Spider+?)

That's a reasonable thought given the RAW, but it's also a guess, ultimately. I'd say there's still value in it. ;)

Praznagar
26-07-2011, 22:16
Sooo dwarfs should get hatred against a tyrant with a look-out gnoblar?

Xisor
26-07-2011, 22:38
In essence: yes. With gnoblar: model is part greenskin. Without: model is wholly ogre.

It's obviously a big point, hence why we're discussing it (and highlights why I'm unhappy with this resolution). I'm inclined to note that this is a suitably 'absurd' extreme, but then...dwarfs are known for their ability to hold grudges. One gnoblar could be all it takes.

decker_cky
26-07-2011, 23:17
You attack the arachnarok, not the goblins. You attack the tyrant, not the gnoblar. You cannot attack the look out gnoblar or crew, so get no rerolls.

darheresy
26-07-2011, 23:26
Sooo dwarfs should get hatred against a tyrant with a look-out gnoblar?

I would say no. As I have stated before, unless you strike a hated foe hatred should not apply. The majority of the model is a Tyrant, You strike the Tyrant and you use his Toughness and his wounds. The gnoblar is not a target in anyway and therefore hatred should not be applied.

The dwarf only get hatfull if the have a chance to bash in the face of a smirking greenskin.

Xisor
26-07-2011, 23:36
The dwarf only get hatfull if the have a chance to bash in the face of a smirking greenskin.

Which they do. The gnoblar has an in-rule effect on the model, it's presence is not purely aesthetic. It's an aggregate model. It's part greenskin. Which is 'greenskin of some description'.

decker_cky
27-07-2011, 01:13
Can a piece of equipment be attacked? No. You're attacking an ogre, not a greenskin.

Dragonreaver
27-07-2011, 01:39
I wouldn't even try to claim Gnoblars were Greenskins. Not in the Dwarf Hatred sense anyway. It's a bit like trying to claim High Elves, Wood Elves and Dark Elves are the same for Hatred purposes, or Empire, Brettonians, Chaos Mortals and (I know I'm forgetting an army) are "all Humans" for hatred purposes.

Goblins and Gnoblars are distant cousins and only appear in totally separate army books. It seems silly to even try and claim Dwarfs hate Gnoblars. Even sillier to try and claim you get re-rolls against what is effectively a piece of wargear.

darheresy
27-07-2011, 06:34
Which they do. The gnoblar has an in-rule effect on the model, it's presence is not purely aesthetic. It's an aggregate model. It's part greenskin. Which is 'greenskin of some description'.

Since they do not strike the greenskin, hatred can not be applied.

Lord Zarkov
27-07-2011, 10:58
I wouldn't even try to claim Gnoblars were Greenskins. Not in the Dwarf Hatred sense anyway. It's a bit like trying to claim High Elves, Wood Elves and Dark Elves are the same for Hatred purposes, or Empire, Brettonians, Chaos Mortals and (I know I'm forgetting an army) are "all Humans" for hatred purposes.

Goblins and Gnoblars are distant cousins and only appear in totally separate army books. It seems silly to even try and claim Dwarfs hate Gnoblars. Even sillier to try and claim you get re-rolls against what is effectively a piece of wargear.

Well High, Wood and Dark elves are all counted for "Fear Elves", so I don't see why they wouldn't be covered in "Hates Elves".
GW has also made things before with "Hates Undead" to cover the two armies.

In fact the reason the rule is "Hates Greenskins" and not "Hates O&G" is to cover things like Hobgoblins, and yes Gnoblars, that appear in different army books.

N1AK
27-07-2011, 13:06
Perhaps I missed a reason why this is irrelevant but surely the same issue is true of the pump wagon?

Personally I'll let an Dwarf player claim hatred against anything with greenskins on it (Wyvern, Araknarok etc). I don't think that's RAW but I think it makes sense, and minimises complexity. When I play Dwarves I would think chariots and pump wagon should count, the Araknarok I can't be sure on.

Tregar
27-07-2011, 13:43
I wouldn't even try to claim Gnoblars were Greenskins.

Why the hell not? They are specifically described as greenskins for rules purposes in the Ogre armybook!


Not in the Dwarf Hatred sense anyway. It's a bit like trying to claim High Elves, Wood Elves and Dark Elves are the same for Hatred purposes...

Watch this: I'm going to blow your mind. Goblins fear Elves. If a rule states Elves to be the subject of some psychological aspect, then it really is not hard at all to work out what an Elf is or isn't.


Goblins and Gnoblars are distant cousins and only appear in totally separate army books. It seems silly to even try and claim Dwarfs hate Gnoblars.

It seems silly to me to argue against something that fulfills both the rules as written, and the intent behind the rules. Cmon man, this is one of those rare instances where common sense and the rules are in perfect harmony. You don't need to argue against it ;)


Even sillier to try and claim you get re-rolls against what is effectively a piece of wargear.

On the other hand, you are correct and this would be extremely silly. I hope one day I get to see someone make this argument in-game, so we can all laugh at them! :D

Xisor
27-07-2011, 18:33
Can a piece of equipment be attacked? No. You're attacking an ogre, not a greenskin.

An ogre 'carrying a hated piece of equipment', arguably.

You hate things which are greenskins of any description.

If you're striking a model, you're striking at, in part, it's gear too. As I said, the final 'model being struck' is an aggregate entity. [b]Of any description[/i] is pretty wide (and why we're discussing it).

If you're striking models which are greenskins, then that's simpler. But 'of any description' indicates it's a fairly powerful catch-all.

If I were an Ogres player in this situation, I'd be inclined to allow the hatred.
If I were a Dwarf player in this situation, I'd be inclined to not bother raising the point as it's very dubious.

Nevertheless, that is what's there.

Consider the reasoning. "That's an ogre, not a greenskin." "But part of its rules stem from greenskin presence." "But you can't hit it." "By hitting the ogre am I hitting the presence of the greenskin" :cries:

It's a line of conversation I'm alright with online, but in tabletop terms, I'd be very wary.

Tregar
28-07-2011, 00:15
Well, imagine you're carrying a handbag, made of leather. Are you a cow? Imagine there's a chihuahua in the bag. Are you a dog now as well?

No. Nor is an Ogre Tyrant with a Sword Gnoblar. I really really REALLY suggest not shying away from common sense- it does work, sometimes!

Xisor
29-07-2011, 20:44
That works well, if you were allowed to chose between them. But you're not. They're one thing. 'If you're hitting a dog of any description'. Really, 'of any description', is a terrible way of wording it, because some descriptions (like the ones I'm proposing) are really taking the biscuit.

(I'm not unaware of common sense, I'm...lamenting that the rules say it shouldn't apply. Because 'of any description' is poorly thought out.)

H33D
29-07-2011, 21:19
The terms 'goblin', 'orc', and 'greenskin' apply to a few models in the rulebook. Look at the rules for how goblins and orcs interact as far the the mechanics of panic tests. Now if you are a Dwarf only apply hatred if the specific model you are attacking has one of these rule 'tags'. A spider has goblins on it and therefore the spider has the 'greenskin' and 'goblin' tags. So a Dwarf hates it and rightly so. Who wouldn't hate a big beastie carrying your sworn enemy? However unless a Wyvern has an Orc on it I don't see a reason for a Dwarf to hate it as Wyverns don't specifically have the 'orc' or 'greenskin' tag. I do believe (but am not sure) that Squigs actually have the 'goblin' tag and so therefore Dwarves hate them. It might only be the Squig Hoppers that do so.