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BBWags
15-07-2011, 18:02
I was just wondering if folks view a small night goblin unit with three fanatics in it and the hand of gork spell that can place them an inch away from an enemy unit is cheesy. Please no rules debate here. I believe that the difference between 'place' and 'move to' is the clincher in that debate. So even if you disagree, please assume for this discussion that it is perfectly legal to do this. So is this cheesy, to have the possibility of sending up to three fanatics sailing down the enemy battle line, likely winning you the game then and there, probably turn one or two? What do you think?

Jack of Blades
15-07-2011, 18:08
I view it as truly goblinoid in spirit. Absolutely not cheesy :)

UberBeast
15-07-2011, 18:20
It's not cheesy at all. As for winning a battle, it's not really that powerful, and it takes a good deal more foresight than simply blasting off a super spell with IF.

Tzeentch Lover
15-07-2011, 18:21
Sure it is. I'll stop doing too if you don't cast Dwellers or Purple Sun. :p

BBWags
15-07-2011, 18:35
It's not cheesy at all. As for winning a battle, it's not really that powerful, and it takes a good deal more foresight than simply blasting off a super spell with IF.

Not really that powerful? In larger games (and even small games) it can be very hard not to line up your units right on the limit line of your deployment zone. This for two reasons: keeping in leadership/ BSB bubble and getting as close to the enemy as possible to close as quickly as possible.

And so if you do that and the OnG player can IF his fanatics lengthways down your line, that's 3d6 s5 AP hits on each of your units... That isn't powerful enough for you?

Tzeentch lover- I'm actually the OnG player in this case, so I'm not whining about having it done to me. I just dong like esing cheesy tactics, so before I try this in game, I thought I'd see the perceived cheese factor in the wider gaming world.

Urgat
15-07-2011, 18:35
It's not 3D6 hits that are going to win you the game. And if you see it coming and dread it so much, well, just dispell it :p

BBWags
15-07-2011, 18:39
You can't dispel IF. And maybe this bothers me more than others because as of yet we still play fairly small games (~1500 points) so there are far more 20-30 model strong units than 50-100 strong units. And with smaller units, losing 8-10 of EACH in one phase is pretty devastating.

enyoss
15-07-2011, 19:03
... we still play fairly small games (~1500 points)...

I think this is more the problem. Units are generally balanced with 2000-3000pt games in mind, so although you're not a million miles away from this points bracket, things like fanatics and mass missile fire will really hurt.

Matt.Wood88
15-07-2011, 19:23
Even worse is when you have two mangler, squigs and do the same trick to a gun line :D so good!
I they don't shoot them, brilliant! They cause havoc up and down the enemy line. If they do, also good! Then they aren't shooting the rest of your army!
Cheers
Matt

Ramius4
15-07-2011, 19:25
So is this cheesy, to have the possibility of sending up to three fanatics sailing down the enemy battle line, likely winning you the game then and there, probably turn one or two? What do you think?

I think the better question is... How do you feel when you do this?

If it makes you feel like you're being a douche, then maybe you should stop. But hey, as long as you, and everyone else is alright with it, then go ahead. :)

Urgat
15-07-2011, 19:25
You can't dispel IF. And maybe this bothers me more than others because as of yet we still play fairly small games (~1500 points) so there are far more 20-30 model strong units than 50-100 strong units. And with smaller units, losing 8-10 of EACH in one phase is pretty devastating.

On the first turn, the goblin player shouldn't be able to bring a unit on the side of your line. On your first turn, you should be able to vanguard a unit of light cavalry close enough so you release the fanatics early. I'm not bothered by your problem because I am a goblin player, and I don't field fanatics anymore, because they're so easy to counter in 8th ed.

drear
15-07-2011, 19:29
this but with a mangler squig

i find fanatics, for what they do are expensive, and mostly people know where they are.

for instance in my elf army, i just fly an eagle infront of the goblin line a dn suddenly all the fanatics are out, and now infront of their battle line stopping charges.

this tactic will work nicely with a mangler, as it means your opponent has to choose, do they kill that 1 65pt thing, or do they try stopping the other dangerous stuff like giants, big spiders etc.

with the new faq hand of gorking 2 manglers into a flank of a battle line would be terrifying

Tregar
15-07-2011, 20:21
It's one of those tactics that is really good vs an inexperienced player, but rubbish otherwise. And if you're taking advantage of someone's inexperience, then you can double your pleasure by having them finish their move on top of the fanatics during a charge, without needing magic, for 6D6 S5AP hits rather than a mere 3D6 ;) (Having said that, last time I did this, my fanatics killed 5 Witch Elves. My dice are awesome!!)

Plus if you're chucking your Night Goblin unit halfway up the table, away from your general and BSB, you're looking at losing the unit very quickly. Minimum cost 135 points, more likely 200+ points...

ihavetoomuchminis
15-07-2011, 21:50
Even worse is when you have two mangler, squigs and do the same trick to a gun line :D so good!
I they don't shoot them, brilliant! They cause havoc up and down the enemy line. If they do, also good! Then they aren't shooting the rest of your army!
Cheers
Matt


This. The real cheese (if there's something cheesy in the O&G army :shifty:) is using hand of gork with the squig mangler. Squig manglers are so good.....either your opponent shoots them (and while doing it, he doesn't shoot to your more than 65 points units) or they make a mess of opponent units.

Morkash
15-07-2011, 21:59
It is not cheesy at all. I used this tactic in 2 tournaments and while it played out quite well twice (one of them being vs High Elves, who were pretty much shattered by it...after the "invulnerable" Archmage ate 6 magical S7 attacks from the Savage Great Shaman :) )

On other occasions, if the Hand gets dispelled or you do not roll good for the distance (8" with 5d6 anyone?), the unit has to be used as flank protection.

Test it, if you can use it to good effect then why not? It's definately not as cheesy as 40 regenerating WS10 Grave Guards or 200 Slaves, but rather an interesting and fun tactic to use. :)

T10
15-07-2011, 22:09
this but with a mangler squig


Well, you can use the Hamd of Gork to move the Mangler Squig really close to an enemy unit, but it wouldn't have the immediate effect you seem to have in mind: it would just sit there until its next movement phase. It would not immediately rampage through an enemy unit.

Wesser
15-07-2011, 22:25
Its all relative. Its not at all cheesy compared to:

Any Dark Elf player using Pendant of Khaeleth

Empire players fielding more than 1 steam tank

Bret uber chars overexploiting combos based on Tress of Isoulde, Virtue of Heroism and such

Dark Elves fielding warriors.... (Yep, of all combos in fantasy this remains the most overpowered)


The thing to remember is that your opponents reciprocate in kind (or just not play you). I for instance only fielded Blade of Couronne once when I started playing back in 4th (Blade= All undead within 3 inches at end of move took a wound with no save!)

My important called cheese and said he didnt wanna see it ever again...understandably.

This has led my gaming group to focus on very casual, fun or characterful armies, and some heavy defeats in tournaments. But if someone is using any of the above, have they then proved themselves a better general if they win? No, but if I win, then I'll have.

BBWags
15-07-2011, 22:31
Hmm, interesting thoughts from everyone! So even though I said not to go there, I'm actually somewhat surprised that no one has pulled a raw vs rai argument on me concerning the fanatics still having to be 'unleashed' from 8" away. Does that mean if I do this at a store event, most people will understand it's legitimacy? Or is it still a hotly debated topic?

Yrrdead
15-07-2011, 22:59
Honestly I don't know how people don't think this is bad. With the latest FAQ this little trick will generally cause 3D6 to 90% of the units in your army!

I don't mind the idea behind it but the fact that they simply continue to bounce through every unit is ridiculous. (Even for fanatics :P)

I felt (and still feel) that they should have ruled it like they did purple sun. Meaning you do damage to units that your movement moves you through and do nothing to the units that you "bounce" through to get 1" away.

My 2c.

Cragum
15-07-2011, 23:25
i personally have seen it cane a skaven army very badly. Plopped a unit infront of a storm vermin horde unit what had a greyseer waiting to skitter leap himself in the opponents turn to my side.

Aimed for him.
Range reached through stormvermin.
Hit him with one fanatic.
One ultimately pulped ratman...

They can cause a lot of aggro for your opponent if he is trying to hide some strong units just behind a cheap unit as a meat shield.

None the less though, i do not see them as cheese in any way possible. I have 10 usually in my army for around 2k list and thats a gentle amount as i could be packing plenty more if i had the bother to buy them :D

Whats nastier is picking up your manglers and placing them in to the side of a unit that cant shoot it. Usually the side of the enemy. Especially if you have two cause you can get a couple hands of gork playing with the enemy while the battle line moves up...

Dungeon_Lawyer
16-07-2011, 02:52
Even worse is when you have two mangler, squigs and do the same trick to a gun line :D so good!
I they don't shoot them, brilliant! They cause havoc up and down the enemy line. If they do, also good! Then they aren't shooting the rest of your army!
Cheers
Matt

yup Mangler squigs are very deadly in this role, but you have to survive a enemy turn of shooting/magic/charging before they can move into contact on the flank and casue havoc.

Fanatics have the advantage being used as soon as the spell is worked out-You place your goblin unit and out jumps the fanatics. It great fun. Every army has its tactics this is just one that works for Ngoblins not cheesy at all.

Jind_Singh
16-07-2011, 03:08
This is 'Propa Tak-ticks' for a Warboss - not cheesy - so situational in it's setting

1) You have to get the spell in the 1st place
2) You have to cast it
3) You have to roll enough movement to pull it off
4) You have to be able to place the spell
5) Then you have to hope to do decent damage with 3D6 Str 5 -3 hits

Oh by the way....we're also assuming the enemy hasn't blown your load of Fanatics from the said unit....

So define my cheesy when it's asking so much to get it pulled off in the 1st place (place your innuendos please!) - were a simple purple sun spell can just take out vast chunks of an army in one shot with just a few variables

1) Do you have the spell? Yes? Go to 2
2) CAST IT!

BBWags
16-07-2011, 03:47
Thank you all very much. I am now thoroughly convinced not to feel bad about this tactic. A knowledgable opponent can halt it before it starts and there are quite a lot of variables anyway, so thanks for the feedback! Any more thoughts on the rules side of it?

Gork or Possibly Mork
16-07-2011, 05:04
Not cheesy at all.

If it was so sure fire win you'd hear alot of people complaining about it and very few people figuring out ways to deal with it.:p

Seems effective on paper when all the perfect conditions are met but i don't think it's that easy to do against seasoned players not to mention after all the what if's.

I don't even run fanatics anymore since i can pretty much bet that 80% of the time they're coming out faster than you can say Diana Ross.

Yrrdead
16-07-2011, 05:19
Having personally had this used against me to devastating effect I have to say that the majority of the posters in this thread are underestimating this tactic.

It isn't the combo per say that is cheesy. It is the effect of having all 3 fanatics go through your entire army. 3D6 Str 5 x 5-7 units? Because of the awesome "bounce" faq? That is silly.

AlphariusOmegon20
16-07-2011, 05:20
There's only one catch to this trick; it's just as likely to screw you as help you.

Ok you have the ability to move 3d6. Problem, you still stop at the 8" mark from an enemy unit to release the fanatics.

Now, if you don't very well, what's going to end up happening to those fanatics is your unit you're moving with Hand of Gork is going to land on the fanatics you just released.

If you choose to release the fanatics in another direction to ensure you charge next turn, they are then wasted as most likely they won't hit anything when they are released and the opponent's charge will hammer you next turn.

You're also likely to get flank charged by another nearby enemy unit the next turn. I've had several people intentionally stomp on the fanatic and take the hits on the way into a flank charge. Units are bigger now in 8th, and most units of common size (40 to 50 models) can soak up those hits without breaking much of a sweat at the thought of possibly having to take a 25% morale check and those that do will probably make their check as they will have high enough Ld to easily pass the roll or high enough toughness you won't wound many to start with.

Not a great tactic to use, in my view.

Dutch_Digger
16-07-2011, 16:15
Ok you have the ability to move 3d6. Problem, you still stop at the 8" mark from an enemy unit to release the fanatics.


as mentioned in the very first post, this does not apply as the unit doesn't move. Instead it's placed at the final position before fanatics launch.
in this thread we assume everyone agreed on that beforehand.

(basically there's no catch.)

i'd say if you use a standard army 2-2.500 and theres a proper amount of scenery, theres plenty of ways for the opponent to get around it and prevent a 'hit 5-7 units' tactic

AlphariusOmegon20
16-07-2011, 16:35
as mentioned in the very first post, this does not apply as the unit doesn't move. Instead it's placed at the final position before fanatics launch.
in this thread we assume everyone agreed on that beforehand.

(basically there's no catch.)

i'd say if you use a standard army 2-2.500 and theres a proper amount of scenery, theres plenty of ways for the opponent to get around it and prevent a 'hit 5-7 units' tactic

Except it contradicts the Fanatics own rule about the measurement of 8" of the enemy, so yes, there is a catch.

This will end up being a future FAQ. :rolleyes:

Jind_Singh
16-07-2011, 16:58
The way I looked at it is normally a unit MUST stop if it moves within 8" of the NG unit, or vice versa of the NG unit moves within 8" of enemy.

This is not moving though - your essentially transporting the unit to a new location - the 1st model is placed anywhere in range of the spell and the unit forms up around it - so I think it would over ride the 'stop 8" away from enemy" - unless the spell description states the unit is 'flying' to the new location via the hand of Gork himself, in which case you could imagine the fanatics jumping off the hand of Gork as they approach the enemy - like dive bombers!!!

Cragum
16-07-2011, 17:29
it does say that the unit is picked up and then placed where the one model is placed to represent where they now will be fighting from. So i would say as horrid as it sounds it does negate the 8 inch rule... Because that unit never entered within 8" they were already there.

I will agree though, fanatics are amazingly nasty but at the same time... you can go through 5-7 units and role quite a few 1s n 2s leaving you more annoyed at the ffort spent to get them, say 9 kills through 5-7 units.


Although this says one thing...

Dont bunch your units up when battling night gobbos! :D

Urgat
16-07-2011, 17:31
There's precedents to that, like skavens skitterleaping within 8" (and back in 5th, there would even be rules to cover that with random scatter for the fanatics), so I don't see the problem. The rules are clear, the goblins are never at 8", they're here, and then there.

Kalandros
17-07-2011, 07:35
Except it contradicts the Fanatics own rule about the measurement of 8" of the enemy, so yes, there is a catch.

This will end up being a future FAQ. :rolleyes:

Yes yes because EVERYTHING needs a FAQ, right? Come on, read the spell.

"Remove a model from the front rank of the unit and PLACE it anywhere within 3d6" (5d6" boosted) of its original position, facing any direction. Remove the remainder of the unit from the battlefield and form them up around... etc"

You do not MOVE the unit within 8" of the enemy it APPEARS magically, because of magic and unikhornes, right there. You don't stop the teleport when it reaches the 8" line because it doesn't ever move toward the enemy, it stops to exist on the battlefield and it appears where you place it.

There is no argument to the contrary - you can make a unit of night goblins appear 1" away from an enemy unit and release all 3 fanatics through the enemy's battle line.

And as many other Greenskin players - I seldom field fanatics anymore. That teleport trick is just another gimmick available, it can be cheesy depending on points level but its not something you will regularly see happen.

Rama
17-07-2011, 11:19
i think cheesy is when u play the same army over and over. The point being is to have fun , for you and your friends =]

AlphariusOmegon20
17-07-2011, 14:46
Yes yes because EVERYTHING needs a FAQ, right? Come on, read the spell.

"Remove a model from the front rank of the unit and PLACE it anywhere within 3d6" (5d6" boosted) of its original position, facing any direction. Remove the remainder of the unit from the battlefield and form them up around... etc"

You do not MOVE the unit within 8" of the enemy it APPEARS magically, because of magic and unikhornes, right there. You don't stop the teleport when it reaches the 8" line because it doesn't ever move toward the enemy, it stops to exist on the battlefield and it appears where you place it.

There is no argument to the contrary - you can make a unit of night goblins appear 1" away from an enemy unit and release all 3 fanatics through the enemy's battle line.

And as many other Greenskin players - I seldom field fanatics anymore. That teleport trick is just another gimmick available, it can be cheesy depending on points level but its not something you will regularly see happen.

Unfortunately, there is an argument to the contrary. Read the Fanatic entry, emphasis mine.

"Fanatics MUST be released a concealing unit comes within 8" of the enemy or vice versa. The MOVING unit stops immediately. Once the fanatics movement has been resolved, the unit may continue moving if the player wishes"

Now read the next to last last sentence of Hand of Gork.

" The Shaman can choose to extend the distance that the target unit MOVES to 5d6"

So yes, it is a move, and as such, you MUST stop 8 " away to release the fanatics if you have them, then complete your move closer if you wish to do so after resolving the fanatic's movement.

Sorry, this trick doesn't work the way everyone thinks it does with fanatics.

Urgat
17-07-2011, 14:55
Or how to ignore the entire rules to choose the one word in an addendum to the rules to try and force your view. The rest of the rules explain exactly how the unit doesn't move but is picked up from one place then dropped another place (described in great details, with just picking up one model, etc etc), but you're actually going to expect that they rewrite it all every time they meant to say that the unit is moved around? Ah well, I don't think anybody here will really need to convince you anyway.

Snake1311
17-07-2011, 15:05
You know there is a night goblin unit, and you know whether they have the spell or not BEFORE deployment; just leave 3" frikkin inches between your units if you are unable to either draw out the fanatics or dispell reliably.

Getting the big vortex of doom cast in your face is probably more destructive in 80% of cases anyway

Tregar
17-07-2011, 18:33
Having personally had this used against me to devastating effect I have to say that the majority of the posters in this thread are underestimating this tactic.

It isn't the combo per say that is cheesy. It is the effect of having all 3 fanatics go through your entire army. 3D6 Str 5 x 5-7 units? Because of the awesome "bounce" faq? That is silly.

Well then next you know not to put all your units in a single line with less than 2" between them. Absolutely easy peasy to counter. If you're making mistakes, that doesn't make your opponent's technique cheesy.

AlphariusOmegon20
17-07-2011, 19:06
Actually it was just pointed out to me that was focusing on the wrong words in both rules, though I was right in the end of what happens.

It's " may" and " must" that should be focused on here.

Fanatics says you MUST stop 8" away and resolve the fanatic's movement.

Hand of Gork says you MAY move within 1" of an enemy unit.

Thus the fanatic's rule take precedence between the two as HoG's rules are optional, whereas the fanatic rules are manditory.

Gonzoyola
17-07-2011, 20:00
I've seen a Dweller's Below, kill 36 out of 50 marauders in one go. I play Tomb Kings and have seen simple spells instagib my 200+ point models, or even worse, decimate half of a skeleton bunker. I've seen High Elves with the Book of Hoeth and the Lore of Life, giving T7, regenerating, elves.


Do your fanatics scare me? No. Will they hurt? Yes. Will I then overcome the gimmick that you built your army around with my own preformulated Battle plan? Yes. Not to mention if I get the first turn, I generally have Raiders popping up in your back field or on the side, drawing out fanatics, and I also have tons of trash troops for pulling out things like that. Oh look, My Ungor raiders marched up, release your fanatics. Oh you killed that unit? well heres another one, let me squat them right on top of your fanatics and kill them like that.


Honestly I dont argue it because the way i always lightly interpreted it was a teleport spell. I believe the spell even describes a Hand coming down, picking them up, and placing them somewhere else.

Cragum
17-07-2011, 20:32
actually if your being really anal on the whole wording thing. It does say 'WITHIN' 8", so no matter how close you are as long as your 'within' the 8" you must throw em out...

Urgat
17-07-2011, 20:59
Until GW released a faq that basically say "D'huh, of course they are, silly!", people argued that the various flame of tzeentch spells were not considered flaming, last edition. Since then, I've realised how pointless it was to argue on semantics. That's not how GW write their rules.

Kalandros
17-07-2011, 21:58
Actually it was just pointed out to me that was focusing on the wrong words in both rules, though I was right in the end of what happens.

It's " may" and " must" that should be focused on here.

Fanatics says you MUST stop 8" away and resolve the fanatic's movement.

Hand of Gork says you MAY move within 1" of an enemy unit.

Thus the fanatic's rule take precedence between the two as HoG's rules are optional, whereas the fanatic rules are manditory.

No. Hand of Gork places the unit, the unit does not move toward the enemy unit, it is PLACED there.

Basically, I pick up my unit and hang it above your unit and place it 1" apart from your unit.

I did not move toward you using a determined path on the table board. A unit not on the board is not in play. The first model is removed from play and placed back in play. And any effects such as fanatics happen from the new position since that is where the unit begins to be in play.


Also I'm pretty sure we should be playing with the "vortex FAQ" which states that anything not within its maximum range does not get hit but he still goes through to find his landing place. This was in one of the foreign FAQs but not in the English FAQ, odd but still... Its probably how they intend to make this work sooner or later.

Anyway, Hand of Gork unit does not stop at the 8" limit because it is not in play when it is being teleported.

T10
17-07-2011, 22:19
Th process seems simple: remove the model, place it on the table, form up the unit, relase the fanatics.

TMATK
17-07-2011, 22:28
...

Also I'm pretty sure we should be playing with the "vortex FAQ" which states that anything not within its maximum range does not get hit but he still goes through to find his landing place. This was in one of the foreign FAQs but not in the English FAQ, odd but still... Its probably how they intend to make this work sooner or later.

...

I never heard this, which foreign FAQ are you referring to?

I've only been playing since 7th, but I've never heard of fanatics being played that way. Vortex spell are a million times stronger then fanatics, I see no reason to correlate their rules like that.

Dungeon_Lawyer
18-07-2011, 08:05
Blah b;ah I agree with majority fanatics lauch from final postion of Ngobline unit.

I SoM I plan to use this tatic to move my summoned or binded dark emassary to xerus some units. At least that is the plan.

Okuto
18-07-2011, 14:39
I don't think it's cheesy, gobliny yes but there are way cheeser things out there. I'd rather have thee fanatics running through my lines than a purple sun cast on me anyday of the week, at least can shoot a fanatic

DeathlessDraich
18-07-2011, 17:52
This is 'Propa Tak-ticks' for a Warboss - not cheesy - so situational in it's setting

1) You have to get the spell in the 1st place
2) You have to cast it
3) You have to roll enough movement to pull it off
4) You have to be able to place the spell
5) Then you have to hope to do decent damage with 3D6 Str 5 -3 hits
!

On the original question, I think the post above answered it - especially pts 3, 4 and 5.
I would omit (1) as it is easily achievable using standard lists. (2) - 8+ Casting is very probable but it can be dispelled.

(3) is the main problem. An extra movement of D6" with the same facing, doubles the probability (from 42% to about 80%), of the released Fanatic causing damage

But any player who faces a NG unit and does not 'force' a tactical release of Fanatics using a suitable unit has made a tactical mistake.
:)

On the rules - a separate post is necessary

Cragum
18-07-2011, 17:55
...
But any player who faces a NG unit and does not 'force' a tactical release of Fanatics using a suitable unit has made a tactical mistake.
:)
...



That bit made me smile cause i have done it in the past. Its like you can actually instal fear in your opponent and cause them to turn their lines to fight a unit that costs on say 75 points. without a single fanantic inside.

Cause when half their line is aiming at a unit that are empty, the rest can move up...

wizbix
18-07-2011, 18:10
Surely Einstein might suggest that it is not the Night Goblin unit that is moving but the other units around it that are moving. In this case though I am sure that Einstein would have no problem with the other units stopping 8 inches away for the fanatics to come out. Though how this effects the speed of light is any ones guess?

NTJ2010
18-07-2011, 18:33
Generally speaking when I play we gladly allow them to be released up close via the foot of gork (and if fanatics are you biggest problem via an O&G army you or your opponent is a bad player). But most commonly someone has a unit in a forest or behind a fence trigger to fanatics, or uses something like an eagle on the flank to bring them out (which costs less than the fanatics themselves in some armies).

There are much bigger "cheese" things to do than releasing fanatics.

Side note, is there anything that states Foot of Gork (or in the main rules) to make the unit count as moving. (I'm asking because a few times I've moved a doom diver unit that was about to be over run into and still fired since I didn't see they count as moving but I could be wrong.

Tregar
18-07-2011, 22:57
Also I'm pretty sure we should be playing with the "vortex FAQ" which states that anything not within its maximum range does not get hit but he still goes through to find his landing place. This was in one of the foreign FAQs but not in the English FAQ, odd but still... Its probably how they intend to make this work sooner or later.

The vortex FAQ doesn't apply since fanatics are obviously very different to a magical vortex, and the FAQ you refer to said the opposite of what you said... so, in short, if a fanatic hits multiple units, it hits multiple units. Which is fair enough since it's far harder to hit multiple units across a line with fanatics, than it is to do the same with a magical vortex.