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Sgt Whiskey Swiper
16-07-2011, 15:05
Ok, this is one of those tin hat times.

Today I recieved my GW Newsletter and for once actually read it in my Spam box. I decided to follow the following link:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/globalLanding.jsp?gotoGWSPage=http%3A//www.games-workshop.com/stormofmagic%3Futm_term%3Dother%26utm_medium%3Dema il%26utm_content%3Dtext-link-body%26utm_source%3De5500001-en_GB%26utm_campaign%3D+ScourgeoftheStormNewslette r-en_GB

As I did so the page took a few seconds longer to load and I was greeted by an unexpected message. I then refreshed the page, but my browser had sped up and it was loading quick as pie, but each time for a split second the following was visible, before the main overlay of GW models came up.

http://i54.tinypic.com/2lcvjtw.jpg

So, I'm curious GW, you always say your models are 'the best in the world', are your really trying to drum it into your customers subliminally every time they access your website?

Elanthanis
16-07-2011, 15:15
First off: No existing social science research confirms the existence of subliminal persuasion beyond premises that a person already finds acceptable.

Further, this isn't subliminal messaging. This is a classic implicature used in almost all advertising. If our models are the finest in the world, then everyone else's must be subpar. Flying a US or UK flag implies patriotism, therefore our business supports the union (positive association). Our cereal contains seven whole grains, therefore it must be healthy and superior to the number of whole grains found in other products.

ehlijen
16-07-2011, 15:23
I don't think the OPs objection is to GW saying that they're the best. It's up to debate, but they are within their right to make such nebulous claims if they want to.

But the way in which this line is sent to the reader is dodgy at best.

Spider-pope
16-07-2011, 15:54
Yeah slight problem with the idea of subliminal messaging on their website:
Subliminal Messaging does not work the way you think it does.

The idea that a slightly longer displayed command or a flashed image affects your purchasing stems from a hoax carried out by James Vicary in 1950.

Research in 2006 showed that such images have a negligible effect on an almost random basis and then only when the desire for said item was already strong in the viewers mind. So for example if you saw an ad for Coca-cola while you were desperately thirsty and wanted a cola you would be slightly more likely to buy that brand. What it would not do is make someone suddenly want a coke and then rush to buy that brand, nor effect their purchasing decisions a week later when they do the shopping.

So if GW were stupid enough to waste money on an advertising technique that doesnt work 99.999% of the time and even then has a negligible effect, then the only way it would work would be if you were already keen on buying GW stuff in the first place.

Edited to add:
I know the bulk of GW General despise the company, but really, has it reached the point where you are making accusations of them brainwashing people?

chamelion 6
16-07-2011, 16:08
Yeah slight problem with the idea of subliminal messaging on their website:
Subliminal Messaging does not work the way you think it does.

The idea that a slightly longer displayed command or a flashed image affects your purchasing stems from a hoax carried out by James Vicary in 1950.

Research in 2006 showed that such images have a negligible effect on an almost random basis and then only when the desire for said item was already strong in the viewers mind. So for example if you saw an ad for Coca-cola while you were desperately thirsty and wanted a cola you would be slightly more likely to buy that brand. What it would not do is make someone suddenly want a coke and then rush to buy that brand, nor effect their purchasing decisions a week later when they do the shopping.

So if GW were stupid enough to waste money on an advertising technique that doesnt work 99.999% of the time and even then has a negligible effect, then the only way it would work would be if you were already keen on buying GW stuff in the first place.

Edited to add:
I know the bulk of GW General despise the company, but really, has it reached the point where you are making accusations of them brainwashing people?

Awwwwwwwww............ There you go, confusing the issue with facts.

It's so much more fun to see GW as the evil Empire bent on enslaving the universe.

scarletsquig
16-07-2011, 16:51
This is a ridiculous suggestion.

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Fizzy
16-07-2011, 16:54
I do think they and their partners make the best soldiers and models :)

Inquisitor Kallus
16-07-2011, 17:01
LMAO@ Scarlet. Legendary

Mage
16-07-2011, 17:26
Seconded, very clever and brilliant!

The bearded one
16-07-2011, 18:16
I doubt it's something they specifically added in here for the purpose of subliminal message. When you google the GW site it also says "Games workshop makes the best model soldiers in the world" in the link description.

sigur
16-07-2011, 18:36
Yeah, it's just for the google tagline. Apart from that, Elanthanis got all there is to talk about.

But it's a cute idea after all. ;)

Griefbringer
16-07-2011, 18:54
Actually, if you check the HTML source for the GW website, that sentence is included twice. First time in the meta description (which is what Google grabbed) in the head, second time in the body:

<p class="description hide">Games Workshop make the best model soldiers in the world.</p>

Perhaps the one in the body was added there by the web guys for debugging purposes?

Trustey
16-07-2011, 19:36
Kill John Lennon, kill John Lenn-

Tyron
16-07-2011, 20:43
Can those claiming subliminal messages don't work site some sources please.

The bearded one
16-07-2011, 20:56
Kill John Lennon, kill John Lenn-

solid reference :p



Can those claiming subliminal messages don't work site some sources please.

I hope you're not grasping at straws to demonise GW? There are plenty of things to be upset about with GW, this isn't one of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subliminal_stimuli

Tyron
16-07-2011, 22:06
I hope you're not grasping at straws to demonise GW? There are plenty of things to be upset about with GW, this isn't one of them.



Your assertion on my original question is incorrect.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subliminal_stimuli

You need to state which section supports your assertion that subliminal messages don't work.

paddyalexander
16-07-2011, 22:15
I don't think its a subliminal message or was ever intended to be. Back in the good old days of dial up many content heavy sites, sporting a lot of pictures or flash animations would take a few minutes to load. A lot of websites did just leave the user see the content drop into place, the page loading a small piece at a time. Others would have a holding pre-page/splash page, giving you a message that the page was loading & some blurb about the company/bussiness whose site you were using. Wouldn't be supprised if this was only a hold over from that out dated design option.

Tresidentevil
16-07-2011, 22:15
m...u...s...t

b...u...y

w...a...r...h...a...m...m...e...r

*gets credit card out*

The Custodian
16-07-2011, 22:27
I don't think its a subliminal message or was ever intended to be. Back in the good old days of dial up many content heavy sites, sporting a lot of pictures or flash animations would take a few minutes to load. A lot of websites did just leave the user see the content drop into place, the page loading a small piece at a time. Others would have a holding pre-page/splash page, giving you a message that the page was loading & some blurb about the company/bussiness whose site you were using. Wouldn't be supprised if this was only a hold over from that out dated design option.

I dont know if that is really the case. GW's site underwent an overhaul a couple years ago so i doubt it was designed with any thought for dial up users. THe old site maybe, not the new one (its what? 2 years old at most? )

Anywho... I doubt this is subliminal messaging... Unless GW is really that desperate to try methods that dont work :P

paddyalexander
16-07-2011, 23:15
You have to remember that these splash pages were all ways optional and often up to the designer to use. I learned web design in the mid-nineties and learned to add these splash pages into sites I designed as good practice, the same way when programing I learned to indent code to make it easier to find errors or clearer to edit. I kept using splash pages out of habit for several years as a just in case precaution. I wouldn't be supprised if the site designer added this in out of habit, typed in a blurb from the company line & never bothered telling anyone at gwPLC.

You would never have seen it if your line had either slowed down or was interupted in some way. So in a way it did its job after all.

Korraz
16-07-2011, 23:22
You need to state which section supports your assertion that subliminal messages don't work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subliminal_stimuli#References

Although I somehow wouldn't be surprised if they tried.
Either way, it's hilarious how delusioned their advertising has become.:rolleyes:

The bearded one
16-07-2011, 23:37
You need to state which section supports your assertion that subliminal messages don't work.
I actually did not state subliminal messages don't work (I don't believe they do, but I did not say so in a post), I said this is just the google tagline and it's nothing to get upset about and provided a link to the wiki article that had a section about it's effectiveness. You did give me the impression that you wanted to hear something bad about GW and that people who claimed otherwise would have to prove it.


Either way, it's hilarious how delusioned their advertising has become.:rolleyes:

I believe they've had that line on their site for as long as they've had that site.

I don't even find myself disagreeing. Their miniature line might not include "Da best mini EVAR", the best mini's ever might be one-hit-wonders from several freelancers or small companies, but on average I think GWs miniatures are very good, finecast issues nonwithstanding. Everybody is using hyperbolic advertising anyway. If AoW keeps producing more plastic kits like the incredible berserkers kit, they're getting the title from me.

Tyron
16-07-2011, 23:59
You did give me the impression that you wanted to hear something bad about GW and that people who claimed otherwise would have to prove it.


Don't mistake me for the majority of Whineseer posters here :p People were making claims and I am intrigued to see some evidence which backs up their claims.

As for GW I can understand why a failing company such as them do as they do, however the majority here have no understanding (see trade embargo threads).

The bearded one
17-07-2011, 00:16
Don't mistake me for the majority of Whineseer posters here :p People were making claims and I am intrigued to see some evidence which backs up their claims.

Personally I usually like to add things like "just out of interest" a couple times in a sentence, because tone is hard to convey over the internet :p


As for GW I can understand why a failing company such as them do as they do, however the majority here have no understanding (see trade embargo threads).

I wouldn't say they're failing yet, at least not so much that they would want to resort to every trick in the book (including subliminal messages and the like). In fact I think at least some of the board are convinced they're doing really well. If they keep it up.. they won't, but it's not that bad yet. Didn't Mark Wells write another letter recently in which he said something about doing stupid stuff now to ensure a bright future.. or ..something? I believe he said "a large playerbase in australia in 20 years"

wikear
17-07-2011, 00:32
You're such a troll mate :)

Also, in one of the website adverts on Viva (I think) the guys is walking from one room to another, in every room there is a letter visible. Not in your face visible, just there. The letters form a phrase EXPLORE. Is this subliminal message? No, it makes you think and eventually explore the website out of curiosity. Subliminal messaging is illegal, but they got better things like MSG in food products. Read the contenta of green Pringles (the most popular of them all).

I need sleep. I'm off!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The bearded one
17-07-2011, 00:45
You're such a troll mate :)

Am I a troll or the OP?

I don't mind being a troll, because then I'd have a regeneration save against harmful internetresponses.. except when people are flaming me :p

Lord_Squinty
17-07-2011, 01:39
Heres proof that GW use subliminal advertising regularly.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1620009

oh wait, thats not subliminal is it??
:D

Spider-pope
17-07-2011, 10:29
Your assertion on my original question is incorrect.



You need to state which section supports your assertion that subliminal messages don't work.

I took an interest in the myth of subliminal messaging after my GCSE Media Studies, the stuff about it having a minor impact was from an issue of New Scientist back in 2006, i'd have to rummage to find the exact issue number.

A useful summary of the main study into the idea of subliminal messaging can be found at http://www.sutherlandsurvey.com/Column_pages/subliminal_advertising.html. It's worth taking a look at just to see how this idea of hidden messages impacting peoples decision making got started.

Verm1s
17-07-2011, 10:30
I know the bulk of GW General despise the company, but really, has it reached the point where you are making accusations of them brainwashing people?

Heck, they seem to accomplish that well enough without subliminal messages.

Pacorko
17-07-2011, 10:41
Mark another one for Verm1s! :D

I guess they think that even when all is going "according to plan", some of the guys at MKT must have gone: "hey, why risk it? It's not like it's going to dezomb... I mean, irk our customers." :p

Jedi152
18-07-2011, 12:23
It's a pretty poor claim anyway: How are they the best?

Looks? That's subjective, and therefore an invalid claim,
Quality? Not a chance with Finecast, which is clearly a step backwards in quality.
Price? Now that's a laugh...

Lewis
18-07-2011, 22:40
Heres proof that GW use subliminal advertising regularly.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1620009

oh wait, thats not subliminal is it??
:D

Damn beat me to that joke. Th most subliminal of all being the Giant issue.

ehlijen
19-07-2011, 01:58
Heres proof that GW use subliminal advertising regularly.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1620009

oh wait, thats not subliminal is it??
:D

Can you tell me what that link is? It keeps redirecting me to the GW homepage.

Spectrar Ghost
19-07-2011, 02:33
WD Annual Subscription.

Harwammer
19-07-2011, 15:42
I've always seen GW as super, rather than sub, liminal advertisers (Hey you! Buy a giant kit! No, I don't care that you collect empire, buy a giant!).

Vaguely on topic: anyone remember "cold seal windows oh eight hundred double two double one double five, cold seal windows oh eight hundred they're the best that you can buy"? They had to change their adverts... Based on this I don't think you can claim to be the best at something in the UK without decent evidence in the uk.

Spider-pope
20-07-2011, 22:28
I've always seen GW as super, rather than sub, liminal advertisers (Hey you! Buy a giant kit! No, I don't care that you collect empire, buy a giant!).

Vaguely on topic: anyone remember "cold seal windows oh eight hundred double two double one double five, cold seal windows oh eight hundred they're the best that you can buy"? They had to change their adverts... Based on this I don't think you can claim to be the best at something in the UK without decent evidence in the uk.

IIRC you can claim to be the best, but not the best you can buy. Something to do with disparaging other products. If you couldnt claim to be the best, Gilette would have to completely rethink their advertising.
"Gilette, one of several equal quality shaving options a man can get" just doesn't have the same ring to it.

Easy E
21-07-2011, 02:03
I took an interest in the myth of subliminal messaging after my GCSE Media Studies, the stuff about it having a minor impact was from an issue of New Scientist back in 2006, i'd have to rummage to find the exact issue number.

A useful summary of the main study into the idea of subliminal messaging can be found at http://www.sutherlandsurvey.com/Column_pages/subliminal_advertising.html. It's worth taking a look at just to see how this idea of hidden messages impacting peoples decision making got started.


That's what they WANT you to think! :eek:

AndrewGPaul
21-07-2011, 14:02
Actually, if you check the HTML source for the GW website, that sentence is included twice. First time in the meta description (which is what Google grabbed) in the head, second time in the body:

<p class="description hide">Games Workshop make the best model soldiers in the world.</p>

Perhaps the one in the body was added there by the web guys for debugging purposes?

IIRC, Google tends to ignore meta text if it's not in the body of the document too. I assume that's why it's there.

That particular blurb seems to be at the beginning of the page, inside a paragraph with a custom class atrribute - "description hide" - I imagine the OP saw it because the page images and CSS data (which presumably makes that text invisible, going by the class name) hadn't yet loaded properly.

Still, it's more fun to assume that GW are using an illegal and ineffective form of advertising, isn't it? In fact, we must assume that GW are, in fact, doing it wrong; it it were a proper subliminal stimulus, the OP wouldn't have noticed anything at all.

Spider-pope
21-07-2011, 14:18
Still, it's more fun to assume that GW are using an illegal and ineffective form of advertising, isn't it? In fact, we must assume that GW are, in fact, doing it wrong; it it were a proper subliminal stimulus, the OP wouldn't have noticed anything at all.

It's all fun and games until Fox News gets a hold of it and starts claiming tabletop games are brainwashing people and are the source of all youth related problems in the world. Again.

The bearded one
21-07-2011, 14:23
It'd be good advertising.

nanktank
24-07-2011, 03:38
Well its a complete turnaround from their usual Superliminal advertising :)

Andres von Rienholt
24-07-2011, 04:30
That text is there for several webdesign reasons.

1. Google and Bing ignore metatags for their search results to combat metatag stuffing and instead looks at the content of the page. Unfortunately the bots can not decipher images so text (and alt text and titles) is the only thing read. As that is the main landing page for visitors they need to have some sort of text for search engines.

2. If there is a failure or a person is using an ancient/text only browser they need something more there then some image alt text.

magath
25-07-2011, 10:39
Here's a question I've wanted to ask for a while but I've been conscious of asking because people here would dog pile me for being picky. The question is:

Can GW legally say they are the "best" in the world?

The reason I ask is because of Carlsberg Lager, who used to have the tagline "The best lager in the world" but were stopped from using it because they could not demonstrably prove there's was the best lager in the world. They now use the tag line "Probably the best lager in the world"

So is there a precedent here GW needs to follow and isn't or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

Easy E
25-07-2011, 15:33
Yes, because there is no measurable yardstick.

That's why places can claim they have 'World-Famous Hamburgers' and the "Best Service in Town" as there is no way to claim otherwise.

I can claim I make the "Best Cake" in the world. Only thing that stops me is creating expecations that are too high. :)

Spectrar Ghost
25-07-2011, 22:53
Beer tasting contests are probably at fault for Carlsberg, though I'm not familiar with the case. If there are X competitions for Lagers and Carlsberg won none despite entering, they would have little legal standing to make that claim.

Bgmique
26-07-2011, 02:59
Right click the background to the left of the content and open the source code for the page. Search for "best" and you'll find the text under the meta for their page. Basically its GW's description of their page. This is SEO (search engine optimization) stuff, and every website should have it if they know what they're doing. Its not subliminal messaging.

magath
26-07-2011, 11:21
Yes, because there is no measurable yardstick.

That's why places can claim they have 'World-Famous Hamburgers' and the "Best Service in Town" as there is no way to claim otherwise.

I can claim I make the "Best Cake" in the world. Only thing that stops me is creating expecations that are too high. :)
Thanks for that, I'd always wondered. :D

Jedi152
26-07-2011, 11:40
Also, see my post here:


It's a pretty poor claim anyway: How are they the best?

Looks? That's subjective, and therefore an invalid claim,
Quality? Not a chance with Finecast, which is clearly a step backwards in quality.
Price? Now that's a laugh...

decker_cky
30-07-2011, 03:59
Right click the background to the left of the content and open the source code for the page. Search for "best" and you'll find the text under the meta for their page. Basically its GW's description of their page. This is SEO (search engine optimization) stuff, and every website should have it if they know what they're doing. Its not subliminal messaging.

Meta tags are ignored by any search engine with a decent search algorithm. It's something you add to every page, but not adding it won't really hurt you. As mentioned, the key is to have text in the body, title and web address with any search terms they want to show up.

Elanthanis
30-07-2011, 05:12
Your assertion on my original question is incorrect.



You need to state which section supports your assertion that subliminal messages don't work.


Don't mistake me for the majority of Whineseer posters here :p People were making claims and I am intrigued to see some evidence which backs up their claims.

As for GW I can understand why a failing company such as them do as they do, however the majority here have no understanding (see trade embargo threads).


Gladly. Most of this stuff is in academic journals, though the abstracts should give you an impression of the content. Most of the literature that describes or favors subliminal persuasion fails in replication.


Subjects watched television commercials, monitoring them for a message (the words choose this) presented at different levels of contrast with the background. Following each commercial, subjects rated their intention to respond positively to it. In Experiment 1, neither detected nor undetected messages affected these ratings compared with a no-message control condition. In Experiment 2, incentives produced higher ratings with detected messages; with undetected messages the effect was statistically ambiguous and only one-tenth as large. Unexpectedly, in both experiments commercials containing undetected messages were subsequently less likely to be remembered than commercials with no messages. The tiny effects of subliminal (undetected) messages compared with the large effects of supraliminal (detected) ones are discussed in relation to the hazards and difficulties of placing them. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2010 APA, all rights reserved)

http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.optionToBuy&id=1995-15618-001

http://search.ebscohost.com.proxy-um.researchport.umd.edu/login.aspx?direct=true&db=ufh&AN=11578920&site=ehost-live


The popular belief in subliminal advertising has remained robust in spite of the fact that advertising professionals almost universally discount it as a practical technique. The current psychological theories of Silverman [Silverman, L. H. (1976). Psychoanalytic theory: The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated. American Psychologist, 31 (Sept.), 621-637] and his colleagues provide a conceptual basis for how changes in behavior might result from subliminal stimulation. However, the theory specifies stimulus conditions which make it highly unlikely that successful use of subliminal messages could be achieved in a promotional context. In light of Silverman's theories, even two recent demonstrations of subliminal effects in the advertising literature fail to enhance the credibility of subliminal advertising as a professional tool. [ABSTRACT FROM AUTHOR]