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Rinion
16-07-2011, 18:07
Heya,

Had my first SoM game today and a bunch of stuff isn't really clear, or at least not to us.

First;
Do you get Look Out Sir! Rolls whilst on a Fulcrum? If a unit is within the proper distance?

Second;
If a model is in combat with a wizard on a fulcrum, can he (my model, in combat with the wizard) then be charged by an enemy unit? And how does that work? It seems to be all 1v1 whilst on a fulcum, or something.

Thirdly;
Do dwarves get the Cantrips? We played it as not, becasue they arent wizards, but then, do they also get turned into Frogs on the miscast? (We played this as yes, as they still tried to cast something, and are thus a kind of wizard)

Lastly;
How do mounts work on Fulcrums? What about a screaming bell/plague furnace?

Thanks!

The bearded one
16-07-2011, 18:42
Fulcrums are buildings, so you should aply the combat rules for buildings. If assaulting a fulcrum, you fight but if you don't kill the wizard on the fulcrum, you will be bumped back 1", and out of the building.

I believe you don't get look out sir! rols when standing in a building, pretty sure anyway...

I believe dwarfs do not get cantrips. They are wizards for the purpose of miscasts if they are standing on fulcrums, so runesmiths/lord on fulcrums turn into frogs, but the ones that are not on a fulcrum do not get froggified.

I'm not so sure about the mounts, I believe a wizard with his bigass mount can stand ona fulcrum if he fits on top of it.

Spiney Norman
17-07-2011, 08:55
Thirdly;
Do dwarves get the Cantrips? We played it as not, becasue they arent wizards, but then, do they also get turned into Frogs on the miscast? (We played this as yes, as they still tried to cast something, and are thus a kind of wizard)


I see an interesting question developing, Runesmitsh are wizards when on fulcrums, and all wizards know the cantrips and seven sigils, therefore do r
runesmiths on fulcrums know cantrips and seven sigils???

I'll go through the book later and see if I can answer this one, but I'm not sure its as simple as people think.

The bearded one
17-07-2011, 09:17
Runesmiths/lord on a fulcrum are only wizards for the purpose of resolving arcane fulcrum miscast results.

ArtificerArmour
17-07-2011, 09:18
I'd say yes. RAW and RAI it would indicatee so, no reason why not.

Lord Greyskull
17-07-2011, 11:41
Even though the rules say you can put any size model on a fulcrum as long as it fits, I think they were meant for a model on foot. I wouldn't trust my chaos sorcerer on a chaos dragon from accidently getting knocked off the fulcrum.

BlackViper
17-07-2011, 14:06
Here's the bit that confuses me a little.

Generally speaking the book is clear that no, runelords/smiths do not "count" as wizards for the vast majority of rules. There is nowhere that says "where you read wizards, this means wizards and runesmiths" or anything to that effect.

It is specific that when you misstrike an ancestor rune you roll on the miscast table, and so runesmiths and runelords count as wizards for the purposes of miscasts.

However... "magical dual" specifies that it can only be cast at enemy wizards, but then also makes mention of dwarf characters (regarding their leadership) without specifically stating why this should matter. They are not wizards, nor have we been told to treat them as wizards, so surely they cannot be targeted by magical dual?

The wording of this rule suggests that the distinciton between wizards and runesmiths may not be as clear as GW intended it to be. Should we allow runesmiths access to these cantrips? Should they be targeted by magical dual? I'm not sure either way...

Tregar
17-07-2011, 15:55
Even though the rules say you can put any size model on a fulcrum as long as it fits, I think they were meant for a model on foot. I wouldn't trust my chaos sorcerer on a chaos dragon from accidently getting knocked off the fulcrum.

That is explicitly wrong, numerous comments from GW show that it's meant for wizards on all sorts of mounts to go on too- but big models, like gobbo shamans on archnaroks, emperor dragons, etc, no chance.

Also it's an especially good idea to only put mounted wizards on there when facing Skaven, since Dreaded 13th spell = autodeath for a wizard on foot.

Not sure if things like Screaming Bells can get on the Fulcrum anyway, as they must be pushed into battle. I guess wizards on chariots could even go on...

Surgency
17-07-2011, 16:08
A Screaming Bell can't go onto a fulcrum, because of the "pushed into battle" rule. A Chariot can go onto a fulcrum, but why would you want to? You risk destroying the chariot!

Tregar
17-07-2011, 18:47
Why would it risk destroying the chariot?

Surgency
17-07-2011, 18:49
chariots and terrain don't play well together



Unless I missed something :shifty:

The bearded one
17-07-2011, 19:09
A Screaming Bell can't go onto a fulcrum, because of the "pushed into battle" rule.

Can't you just deploy it on top of a fulcrum at the start of the battle?

Surgency
17-07-2011, 19:14
Nope. You MUST deploy the bell in a unit of eligible pushers. If you can't deploy it into that unit, or if there are no eligible pushing units, then the bell cannot be deployed and counts as destroyed.

Tregar
18-07-2011, 18:51
chariots and terrain don't play well together



Unless I missed something :shifty:

Well, why is a chariot at risk of destruction from entering a fulcrum? There's no dangerous terrain check to be taken from a normal move like that, after all...

drear
18-07-2011, 19:08
chariots treat difficult terrain as dangerous, like cavalry, so to move onto a fulcrum would be to move through difficult terrain . i think.

but ye just place him on a chariot to start with on the frulcrum. wizards on chariots are great, on a fulcrum its better ^^ 4+ armour 3+ ward

decker_cky
18-07-2011, 19:11
Unless the chariot is charging, marching, fleeing or pursuing, then there's no dangerous terrain check.

The bearded one
18-07-2011, 19:45
IIRC difficult terrain doesn't exist anymore, only dangerous terrain. Terrain is either labelled as dangerous terrain, or becomes dangerous terrain for certain types units when they move through it.

A chariot can't enter a building. Infantry, monstrous infantry, monstrous beast, war beasts and swarms can garrison a building. Even if they could I'm pretty positive it wouldn't count as dangerous terrain for them. Right now the only way for a chariot to get on a fulcrum is to be deployed there (or teleport onto it with a spell/cantrip)

Lord Inquisitor
18-07-2011, 19:50
Even though the rules say you can put any size model on a fulcrum as long as it fits, I think they were meant for a model on foot. I wouldn't trust my chaos sorcerer on a chaos dragon from accidently getting knocked off the fulcrum.

I don't know, the image of the Chaos Dragon coiled around the fulcrum is an appealing one...

drear
18-07-2011, 19:56
i watched sombody balance a manticore and sorcerer on the vortex fulcrum saturday, it looks very ungainly but it fits.

i think if you plan on usisng a big dragon often, build a fulcrum with the dragon proeprly modelled on it and just use that every time you put the dragon + rider on the fulcrums in game.

The bearded one
18-07-2011, 20:01
The only fulcrum able to decently balance a large model on top of appears to be the one with the winding stairs. It's pretty heavy and stable, with a large open top.

Tregar
19-07-2011, 13:05
I dunno, I thought that the rules for Arcane Fulcrums said they're like buildings, but any type of model can enter it? So that would include chariots...

Gaargod
19-07-2011, 20:17
Units are able to charge fulcrums, but only one model FROM the unit can actually fight.

However: Fulcrums are buildings, thus combat res is done on wounds, and the defending side is stubborn. Considering the wizard will have a 3+ ward too, it can be quite difficult to actually win combat. If you fail to make your opponent flee, you don't stay locked in combat, and instead get pushed 1" back. In other words, in the open and a prime target for magicky/shooty death. If you're in a unit of the same size, at least you avoid that.

Lord Inquisitor
19-07-2011, 20:23
The rules seem to be lacking an explicit allowance from a unit that kills or drives off a wizard from a fulcrum to allow a wizard from that unit to occupy the fulcrum.

Ramius4
19-07-2011, 20:25
Yeah, they do lack a rule for it. Nothing to stop you from doing a house rule though.

Lord Inquisitor
19-07-2011, 20:38
That's what I was thinking. I'm not sure whether to allow a wizard from the unit to take the fulcrum if the occupying wizard is killed or driven off whether it was the attacking wizard that fought or not, or only if the wizard is the one who went up to fight. Thoughts?

The bearded one
19-07-2011, 20:40
Seeing as wizards are usually pathetic in combat, it would take ages for a wizard to kill a fulcrum wizard and take his place. And wizards on big fearsome mounts aren't in unit to begin with.

Ramius4
19-07-2011, 20:50
That's what I was thinking. I'm not sure whether to allow a wizard from the unit to take the fulcrum if the occupying wizard is killed or driven off whether it was the attacking wizard that fought or not, or only if the wizard is the one who went up to fight. Thoughts?

I personally would allow the wizard to occupy whether it was him fighting or not. But that's me. I don't think you'd be wrong either way to be honest. Just be sure to make a decision along with your opponent before you play.

Let me ask you this. Which option do you think will be more fun for both you and your opponents, as well as being reasonable?

Much like another 'overlooked' part of the SoM rulebook. There is nothing to say whether or not an Arcane Fulcrum Miscast counts as a regular Miscast for the purposes of other rules, items, etc. that may affect a miscast. Luckily, I had noticed that and discussed it with my friend before our very first SoM game last night (it was a BLAST and I won by the skin of my teeth :D). We both agreed that for now, we'd play it as if NOTHING could affect/transfer/re-roll, etc. an Arcane Fulcrum Miscast, even if you did so with the normal one that preceded it.

We like the idea of added risk in our games. If you want to cast those big cataclysm spells often enough, eventually bad things will happen.

Lord Greyskull
19-07-2011, 21:39
That is explicitly wrong, numerous comments from GW show that it's meant for wizards on all sorts of mounts to go on too- but big models, like gobbo shamans on archnaroks, emperor dragons, etc, no chance.

Also it's an especially good idea to only put mounted wizards on there when facing Skaven, since Dreaded 13th spell = autodeath for a wizard on foot.

Not sure if things like Screaming Bells can get on the Fulcrum anyway, as they must be pushed into battle. I guess wizards on chariots could even go on...

Well then you didn't understand the point I was trying to make. If you have used the new fulcrum models you'd see how larger don't fit very well on them. Example would the fulcrum with the throne on it. And also when they did the battle report they only used wizards on foot.

Tregar
20-07-2011, 15:09
I understand the point a whole let better than you do, and you're the one making it. You said you think Fulcrums were meant for models on foot. You're wrong. Don't feel slighted that you were wrong, you just hadn't read the GW comments about putting mounted models on Fulcrums. Since you can use any terrain piece as a Fulcrum (with opponent's agreement), like Temple of Skulls, and other pieces of terrain can become Fulcrums in the game (Like Wizard's Towers, which have plenty of space), and since cavalry wizards can EASILY fit on top of all the fulcrum models I've seen so far... it's pretty obvious that they're meant for any wizard of any size to go on a Fulcrum, so long as they can fit.

GodlessM
21-07-2011, 22:49
Well then you didn't understand the point I was trying to make. If you have used the new fulcrum models you'd see how larger don't fit very well on them. Example would the fulcrum with the throne on it. And also when they did the battle report they only used wizards on foot.

I have all the Fulcrum models and can fit a variety of model types on all but the Dreadfire Portal.

The bearded one
21-07-2011, 23:00
on the one with the chair too? I think that one is the hardest to fit large models on.

some_scrub
26-07-2011, 00:12
What do people think about the " Look Out, Sir " from a fulcrum question? As far as I can see, there's nothing in the rules to prevent taking a LOS! if you're in a building, even though it doesn't make any sense.

Lord Inquisitor
26-07-2011, 01:22
on the one with the chair too? I think that one is the hardest to fit large models on.

Works well if you don't glue the chair on. I accidentally broke the chair off a friend's fulcrum (it was weakly glued on, I swear! :o) but we decided it looked a whole lot cooler with my slaughtermaster standing on the top with the chair fallen at the bottom of the fulcrum like he had bodily ripped the throne out and thrown it down. Ogres don't need no puny thinling chairs!


What do people think about the " Look Out, Sir " from a fulcrum question? As far as I can see, there's nothing in the rules to prevent taking a LOS! if you're in a building, even though it doesn't make any sense.

Hmmm. My mind revolts at the idea of a model on a fulcrum getting a look out sir roll.

BEEGfrog
26-07-2011, 17:12
Fulcrums are any terrain piece agreed suitable. I have made my own: one a giant tree and another a small stepped pyramid. As originally built the tree would only allow models with bases at least 40mm to fit on top as anything smaller fell off the branches! My Engine of the Gods fits just fine though...

The Look out sir! rule just specifies a distance without any limit to terrain...

shadow hunter
29-07-2011, 11:00
Hypothetical as have only just bought the book, but what happens if a plague priest on furnace or seer on bell duel and win? Do they and their mount get paced onto a fulcrum? We don't own the gw fulcrum's, so would use normal terrain that could support them.

Satan
29-07-2011, 11:13
Unless the chariot is charging, marching, fleeing or pursuing, then there's no dangerous terrain check.

I don't get it. Since the fulcrum is a building a chariot shouldn't be able to charge it at all, right?