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Astraeos
17-07-2011, 23:33
Hey,

With SoM finally bringing back the Fimir (well, one of them but I'm not complaining) I'm eager to add a Balefiend to my fledgling Skaven force.

But I'm primarily a 40K player and it has been years since I last played Warhammer. I think I was fielding my Vampire Counts army under the get you by list in that Ravening Hordes booklet WD gave away free and could also be found at GW shops!

So as you've probably guessed I know very little about the magic spells, and Balefiends get to pick from either the Lore of Fire or the Lore of Shadow. What I want to know is the strengths and weaknesses of both lores, and which would favour a Skaven list more.

I've heard Fire is used for long range blasting and Shadow looks subtle and tricksy. I'd imagine Okkam's Mindrazor on a Rat swarm is devastating!

If it helps I intend to try for a magic level 3 Fimir Balefiend.

decker_cky
18-07-2011, 00:01
If you want pure power, it's shadows all the way. Skaven can do damage better than lore of fire already, but shadows has withering which boosts your shooting, and can remove entire units when combined with wither (drop to T0).

Jolly Puggles
18-07-2011, 00:06
In 4 words; For Skaven, use Shadow.

Skaven already have a lot of tasty direct damage from the Lores of Ruin and Plague. The Lore of Fire will primarily duplicate things you already have access to; Fireball, Burning Head, Piercing Bolts and Flame Storm are all direct damage, which you have plenty of. Lore of Shadow will provide some tasty Hexes and one awesome Augment. A lucky roll on 'The Withering' (Shadow) plus a shot of 'Wither' (Lore of Plague) equals an instant death. 'Okkams Mind Razor' is an obvious boon, given that Skaven units often have very high Leadership. Add to that the Shadow Lore Attribute, you have a tasty get out for a vulnerable character you might otherwise want to save.

Hive Fleet Snackin'
18-07-2011, 00:09
One thing to note about Okkam's is that the Strength value is calculated from the Leadership on a model's profile, and cannot be borrowed from other characters, in the unit or otherwise.

Clanrats and Stormvermin only get boosted to S5 and Slaves would take a cut to S2. Weapon strength bonuses are ignored under the effects of the spell as well, so Stormvermin with halberds are not going from S5 to S6.

Frenzied AHW Plague Monks are downright nasty with that many attacks at S5, but don't expect Okkam's to be handing you any S8 - 10 blocks like elves and the like would get.

Kadris
18-07-2011, 00:11
since its for SoM i would suggest the Lore of Shadow. While the lore of fire adds a bit more damage, warp lightning and a few other spells already have that. Being able to make all enemies flammable is also great if you run alot of warpfire throwers. I think that being able to teleport terrain and units can be devastating if done right. Like a doomwheel teleporting right next to a big juicy monsterous model like say... an emperor dragon. Or moving a forest (a blood forest or wildwood would be better yet!) directly in front of a steam tank or other big unit that has to make terrain checks, or maybe just teleport that enemy fulcrum in front of 2 or 3 prepped weapons teams.

And if you manage to get domination you will be able to reduce enemy characteristics (not all stats, but alot) to 1, making the normally neutral WS3 a bit more viscous. Plus forcing the enemy to dispel the spell or loose his magic phase all together cause his wizards cant cast spells while its in play is a real hit the the groin, and since its a cataclysm spell they have to roll dice instead of scrolling it.

Don't get me wrong, Lore of Fire has its uses but I find Shadow's utility much more advantageous for skaven.

Jolly Puggles
18-07-2011, 00:21
One thing to note about Okkam's is that the Strength value is calculated from the Leadership on a model's profile.

Except Skaven have Leadership equal to their profile plus Rank Bonus, according to SiN. If the spell description said "unmodified Leadership", then yes, I'd agree with you, but unless otherwise refuted, I can't help but read it that Skaven get the bonus for SiN, which means Slaves would have S:5, Clanrats S:8 and Stormvermin S:9 when under the influence of Okkams.

decker_cky
18-07-2011, 00:24
Mindrazor was errata'd to use the number written on the profile - no SiN is added.

Hive Fleet Snackin'
18-07-2011, 00:25
Except Skaven have Leadership equal to their profile plus Rank Bonus, according to SiN. If the spell description said "unmodified Leadership", then yes, I'd agree with you, but unless otherwise refuted, I can't help but read it that Skaven get the bonus for SiN, which means Slaves would have S:5, Clanrats S:8 and Stormvermin S:9 when under the influence of Okkams.

The Skaven errata clearly states: Units with the Strength in Numbers special rule add their current rank bonus to their Leadership value for any Leadership test.

Close combat is not a leadership test, so SiN does not apply.

russellmoo
18-07-2011, 03:37
Back to topic- while shadow is not as good for skaven as for other races- it still beats fire- for reasons already stated.

In addition it should be added that enfeebling is also an incredible spell for making low toughness units last longer- those slaves really won't be going anywhere after you drop D3 strength from the unit attacking them-

Plus, let us not forget pit of shades-

Really, you take the lore of shadow because overall it might be the best lore.

Astraeos
18-07-2011, 07:34
Seems Shadows is the way to go here. Thanks guys for the advice guys, it's appreciated.