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Demoulius
18-07-2011, 11:22
Played a sort of intro game into SoM for new gamers last weekend at my local GW and first turn a manticore with chaos sorcerer charged my block of 20 halberdiers with beast wizard.

The wizard got taken down by the manticore but the lord whiffed his 2 attacks. My halberdiers (WS1 due to me failling my fear test) then killed his lord with 2 lucky unsaved wounds and the manticore fled, with me overrunning it :cool:

My static combat resolution was enough to almost make it impossible for him to win a straight up fight (for as far as it was a straight up fight) but it resulted in my cheap halberdiers downing a costly monster (150 points cost taken from SoM book) not even taking the lords point cost into account...

What do mounted monsters need to do to...well....not get turned into paste by 20 halberdiers? :evilgrin:

musical
18-07-2011, 11:26
Did he forget to thundercrush you by any chance?

sorry I meant thunderstomp

BaSe
18-07-2011, 11:30
He made a massive mistake in charging you. Monsters can be great when used well but they need support and something better than a wizard up top (even if it was a chaos wizard). Also they should, if possible, be used as a rear or flank charger. Charging straight into a unit is generally a waste of points as at the minimum your unit can just sit there for a few turns holding it up.

Demoulius
18-07-2011, 11:30
He did, as a matter of fact...

Im new to the game and dident know about it but a buddy of mine said the same thing later :confused: either way it was a silly move to start with since he was one of their wizards and left a fulcrum to make the move :wtf:

OldMaster
18-07-2011, 11:57
Let's see.
As soon as you charge a 20 Halberdier unit, you're losing by 3 combat resoultion points, no matter what monster.

The Halberdiers have:
+3 from ranks
+1 from banner
You have:
+1 for charging

Halberdiers 4-1 Monster

Now, let's assume the best case scenario of the Halberdiers not being able to inflict any Wounds (something that should be pretty easy to achieve with the right monster/mounted character).
The first Wound your monster does will always effectively count twice for combat resolution: because your opponent is losing a rank.
So, just after dealing A SINGLE Wound, the score will be:

Halberdiers 3-2 Monster

This means that you will need two more Wounds, three in total, to win a normal combat provided you will not be wounded back.
However, you could've also charged in the flank, which would have provided an additional +1 CR (needing you to kill just two Halberdiers) and no supporting attacks.

If your monster (and character) can't kill THREE petty Halberdiers, you're not doing it right.

In your example, your Halberdiers were ridiculously lucky.

Havock
18-07-2011, 11:59
Then he just did something stupid.

The days that monsters could break any decently ranked up unit from the front (on ttheir own) have been gone for some time now.

Anyway, he killed your wizard, if it wasn't a lord then he took two wounds off right there, biggest problem was that you managed to do wounds on him.

Protip: Hit the manticore, not the lord, you were lucky now but they have the same Toughness, yet the beastie has no save, the lord usually does.
Unless, of course it was a sorceror lord, in which case I can understand it not killng anything, and in which case I have two wonder even more "WHY!?"
Unless he had to charge as a result of a failed frenzy test, case that is a very good reason not to put your sorceror lord on a manticore.

drear
18-07-2011, 12:16
if a mount and rider hit a unit, it should be on the flank or rear, and as a supporting attack to a frontal ranked charge.

that wizard could have stayed on teh frulcrum and just cast magic at the unit instead, he could have been charged bvy any other than 1 halberder in his turn anway.

Memnos
18-07-2011, 12:25
I generally will tandem charge monsters.

2 angry Monsters charging Halberdiers will win, even with the weak monsters.

Take two Griffins:

8 attacks, hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s, no save.

2d6 Thunderstomp hits, wounding on 2s, no save.

That's, on average, half of your halberdiers dying in one round and protecting him from being shot in your turn as you will probably be stubborn. Then, since he obliterates you in your turn, he gets to reform at the end and then charge again.

Tandem charges are actually pretty awesome, assuming you aren't facing great weapon armed units in the front.

xxRavenxx
18-07-2011, 12:59
Also - Challange the rider. He can't refuse, and is quite likely to get a single wound on your unit champion, and fairly unlikely to get more than two.

Two wounds means he'll still lose combat, and have only killed one figure. The monster will skip its turn. Huzzah.

ihavetoomuchminis
18-07-2011, 13:35
The monsters work good supporting charges from a weak units. I usa en empire griffon in my empire army, because none of my units are hitty enough to be reliable (even greatswords with priest don't do wonders), but they are cheap and can have many ranks to deny the opponent's steadfast and sum static res. They give the numbers, the monsters give the wounds (and if possible, charging for the flank). I've won some strong units as warriors of chaos or high elf elites with this receipt.

Oberon
18-07-2011, 13:59
Other armies do that with chariots or regular monsters from army book itself (hydra, I'm looking at you)... Of course, it only means it's a good combination and should be used whenever possible.

russellmoo
18-07-2011, 14:46
This is just bad luck-

Normally you wouldn't want to charge the front of a block of infantry with just a monster- but here there were only 20 of them, they are Empire infantry, - and not only does the Manticore have better initiative, but also better weapon skill, and should have been wounding on 2's- the sorc has 3 attacks and str 4-

Short of it is average rolling equals 5 wounds on the halberdiers while the halberds will do about 1 back- this means that in the first round the average result is halberds 4, manticore 6- (if you consider that you had failed your fear test and should have done nothing it would have ended up 3-6)

So by the math- he should have won the combat, however, given the reduced chance of breaking the unit, and sacrificing a fulcrum to make the charge makes this a very bad move- you should tell the player that if he wants to use a monster in this way it's best to just take the monster and no rider, especially not a wizard-

Odin
18-07-2011, 15:15
Hang on a second...


Played a sort of intro game into SoM for new gamers last weekend at my local GW and first turn a manticore with chaos sorcerer charged my block of 20 halberdiers with beast wizard.

The wizard got taken down by the manticore but the lord whiffed his 2 attacks. My halberdiers (WS1 due to me failling my fear test) then killed his lord with 2 lucky unsaved wounds and the manticore fled, with me overrunning it :cool:

My static combat resolution was enough to almost make it impossible for him to win a straight up fight (for as far as it was a straight up fight) but it resulted in my cheap halberdiers downing a costly monster (150 points cost taken from SoM book) not even taking the lords point cost into account...


Maybe I've read this wrong, but your sorcerer charged a unit of halberdiers with a beasts wizard... you are required to issue a challenge, which means either:

(a) the wizard accepts, which means no halberdiers can attack
(b) the wizard declines, which means he goes to the back and you can't attack him
(c) a halberdier champion accepts, in which case you can't attack the wizard, and the halberdiers can't attack you
(d) a halberdier champion declines, moving to the back, and leaving you free to attack the wizard and the halberdiers to attack you

Of those options, only (d) fits your description of the combat, though it seems unlikely that anyone would be silly enough to leave their wizard in base contact with your manticore, without taking the opportunity to excape to the back rank.

Oberon
18-07-2011, 15:23
Champions can pretty much ignore the challenge issuedby a hero, if they wish. They can accept, but they don't have to->they can't be sent to rear ranks, so this scenario is pretty much impossible anyway.

Demoulius
18-07-2011, 19:01
I dont understand...he is required to issue a challenge?

And tbh yes I was lucky he whiffed with so many attacks but even with it i would have been steadfast and had a unit of 10 high elven swordsmasters nearby ready to flank charge. On avarge i should have gotten 3 hits (I got 2) and wound with 1.5 (he said he was T4, I had S4 due to the halberds) and thats exactly what i got. he just failed both his saves :rolleyes:

I was WS1, his manticor missed with 2 attacks (more then avarage i guess) but wounded with both. The wizard then tried to kill some halberdiers and missed with both attacks. He forget about thunderstorm though which hurt him the most in the end most likely since they autohit and wound on 2's disregarding any save the squad would have :cries:

Anyway I killed his wizard (2 wounds) had 3 ranks+banner (no casualties), in turn he had a charge and caused 2 wounds. Won the combat by 3 and the furry beastie tried to run only to get run down by little meatbags with halberds :evilgrin:

*shrugs* even if he had won the combat it was a SoM game so he basicly gave up magical dominance to send his manticor deep within my lines without support :confused:

What would be the proper use of a mounted monster though?

Keep it out combat and ranged weapons + magic will take it down. Send him into blocks of troops and he runs the risk of facing static combat res (and/or steadfast troops)

While you also hurt your target easily the unit in question most likely isent worth that many points (my unit in this case was worth 130 points with magical banner, manticor alone was 150 points) so even if he had won out he would have placed himself in a dangerous posistion :wtf:

Cragum
18-07-2011, 19:22
I am just going to point out that the combat shouldnt of happened.... The manticore causes terror. Your unit should of flee instead.

Demoulius
18-07-2011, 19:55
I am just going to point out that the combat shouldnt of happened.... The manticore causes terror. Your unit should of flee instead.

Passed the terror test, just failed the following fear test :cries:

Odin
18-07-2011, 21:43
I dont understand...he is required to issue a challenge?


Yes, in the WoC army if you can challenge, you must challenge. The only way a chaos sorcerer can get out of having to challenge is if there is another chaos model who can challenge instead.

Demoulius
18-07-2011, 22:02
Ah.... Well to give my opponents a break they dident play WoC and kind of of got the chaos sorcerer forced on them, even though i dident hear them complaining :rolleyes:

was really busy in the store and the staff wasent around to help with rules....

*shrugs* still a fun game though :D

Nubl0
18-07-2011, 22:13
Despite what people claim monsters can still break units on the charge. Especially small weak units like 20 halberds, you were very lucky not to lose that combat. Also if you want a monster that can still smash units I would point you too the hellpit abomination!

Oberon
19-07-2011, 07:54
Especially in SoM, where monsters don't have a character to get challenged but options for upgrades like breath weapons and hatred. Better, cheaper and unchallengable (sp? :D )monsters. You really need lots of ranks/attacks/strenght from the regiment taking a charge from a monster now. Last time I played SoM my spearelves took a charge from a fully upgraded chimera, 8-10 attacks+thunderstomp every turn, plus a breath weapon once->about twelve spears were left standing after 3 turns of fighting from a unit of 40.

To help mounted monsters, I'd include a fast exalted hero on a steed of some sort (slaanesh or tzeentch preferably)to charge with the lord, so the hero can take challenges and monster can thunderstomp the troops. This way you'll only be losing the attacks from the mount because of the challenge, and not the monster's.

ihavetoomuchminis
19-07-2011, 08:46
I've always found ridiculous that once the rider kills his rival in a challenge, the monster can't attack the unit. As if ridden monsters weren't screwed enough.

Odin
19-07-2011, 09:06
I've always found ridiculous that once the rider kills his rival in a challenge, the monster can't attack the unit. As if ridden monsters weren't screwed enough.

It's ok if the monster can still attack the character for overkill purposes, but they can't in 8th unless they're the same Initiative as the rider, so yeah - it's a bit silly.

I also think that thunderstomp should always be against the unit, even in the challenge is still going on. How the hell does the monster manage to trample a single model up to 6 times while leaving the rest of the enemy unit unscathed? It would be much better balance too, preventing a mounted monster being completely negated by a challenge, and also preventing the situation where a character who relies on being hard to hit in close combat gets pretty much auto-killed by thunderstomp in a challenge.

Peregijn
19-07-2011, 09:06
The wizard got taken down by the manticore but the lord whiffed his 2 attacks. My halberdiers (WS1 due to me failling my fear test) then killed his lord with 2 lucky unsaved wounds and the manticore fled, with me overrunning it

is no one finding it odd that the chaos sorcerer only had 2 wounds? a hero cant take a manticore mount. so the sorcerer lord, with 3 wounds should have survived.:confused:

Odin
19-07-2011, 09:15
is no one finding it odd that the chaos sorcerer only had 2 wounds? a hero cant take a manticore mount. so the sorcerer lord, with 3 wounds should have survived.:confused:

I assumed he'd already been injured.

Demoulius
19-07-2011, 10:58
I assumed he'd already been injured.

like I said it was an introduction game to SoM of sorts. People basicly showed up without armies of their own so the store supplied stuff for them. They wanted a manticore and the staff only had the mounted one figured; why not. Not like they dident allready had more points then we did :confused:

We got the high elf mage in return for their chaos sorcerer (hero choice) on MANTICORE...yea really balanced :mad:

The SoM part of the battle was complete pants as well. We only had lvl 2 wizards and had horrible die rolls for the amount of magic dice every single turn...

Was enjoyable but without the staff explaining what the heck we were doing we were at the mercy of a gaming vet who had eyeballed some of the rules once....

*shrugs* anyway... If im reading your comments right one should never challenge with a mounted monster... Best case scenario you kill the model(unit champion most likely) you are challenging and still lose to combat resolution even with points for overkill :wtf:

Oberon
19-07-2011, 11:06
Best case would be the rider failing to kill the champion (or a weak multi-wound character, that would be even better), allowing the monster to kill it+thunderstomp it for maximum CR. With WoC there's no way to escape issuing a challenge with somebody, as long as there's a model to be challenged in b2b (again, champions can be challenged but they don't have to take it, but there's usually no reason why he would refuse).

Pretty poorly handed event by the staff then, as the objective is for the people to have fun and get them wanting for more...

OldMaster
19-07-2011, 14:52
We got the high elf mage in return for their chaos sorcerer (hero choice) on MANTICORE...yea really balanced :mad:


Hey, your High Elf Mage can take the Lore of Metal. That makes him alone worth more than two lv4 Chaos LORD sorcerers on DRAGONS in my book.

In a SoM game, at least.

ihavetoomuchminis
19-07-2011, 16:57
It's ok if the monster can still attack the character for overkill purposes, but they can't in 8th unless they're the same Initiative as the rider, so yeah - it's a bit silly.

I also think that thunderstomp should always be against the unit, even in the challenge is still going on. How the hell does the monster manage to trample a single model up to 6 times while leaving the rest of the enemy unit unscathed? It would be much better balance too, preventing a mounted monster being completely negated by a challenge, and also preventing the situation where a character who relies on being hard to hit in close combat gets pretty much auto-killed by thunderstomp in a challenge.


Send your suggestion to Games Workshop. I fully agree with your ideas.

Demoulius
19-07-2011, 17:39
Hey, your High Elf Mage can take the Lore of Metal. That makes him alone worth more than two lv4 Chaos LORD sorcerers on DRAGONS in my book.

In a SoM game, at least.

Well we were faced with 2 amies of skaven without any kind of armor whatsoever :confused: metal was less then useless in this case...

High elf wizard was the only wizard on our side to have an impact though. He cast the flame cage on a unit of 40 skaven and killed like 20+ when they were forced to move due to a flee move :D

As a small aside, isent it better to send monsters against 'elite' units then rank and file units? Generally you wound them just as easily as core units but elite units are generally smaller and have a better save (which you most likely ignore due to higher strength?)

Would for example empire knights make a better target then halberdiers?

Oberon
19-07-2011, 18:40
Well, you can't thunderstomp knights as they are cavalry, and many elite units have great weapons or otherwise higher strenght, making it even more dangerous for the monster. But yes, killing elite infantry gets you more points and the units often are smaller as well.

Demoulius
19-07-2011, 19:30
My thinking was that cav tend to have lances or spears (as far as im aware of...) so charging them actually negates their strong offensive powers as they only work on the charge :D

Also because these units are generally smaller they wont have that much static combat res compared to blocks of infantry..

That was why I figured they would be good targets anyway :rolleyes:

Oberon
19-07-2011, 20:40
Sure, and their higher AS will be negated somewhat with the higher str as well. Anyway, you won't get as many wounds against cavalry as you would against infantry (granted, there won't be as many of them either) and elite infantry often hits so hard you won't survive the first round.

Go for a flank if you can, always.

Lord Solar Plexus
20-07-2011, 10:32
I don't think the charge was a stupid move in itself (apart from leaving the Fulcrum but hey). As has been pointed out, a Chaos character and a monster will usually beat the crap out of a couple of Halberdiers.

The other week I fielded a Captain on a Pegasus. In game 1 vs WoC, he charged a unit of 32 Marauders + L2. Captain directs his attacks on the wizard and kills him. Pegasus kills one Marauder, they don't get through the 1+ save. 2 ranks (horde) + banner vs 3 wounds + charge = 32 dead Marauders.

Game 2 saw me charging a bunker of 20 Ghouls w/ Vampire caster. Captain challenges and whiffs, Peggie does 3 wounds = dead Vampire, round 2 saw me win again and some crumble, round 3 saw me killing the rest.

Game 3 he charged a small unit of Horrors + L2. Killed the L2 round 1, killed all Horrors until turn 3.



(a) the wizard accepts, which means no halberdiers can attack
(b) the wizard declines, which means he goes to the back and you can't attack him
(c) a halberdier champion accepts, in which case you can't attack the wizard, and the halberdiers can't attack you
(d) a halberdier champion declines, moving to the back, and leaving you free to attack the wizard and the halberdiers to attack you


b) and d) are not options as such. You do not chose who declines a challenge, you just decline - and then the opponent sends someone to the rear (except for champions).

Havock
21-07-2011, 22:47
Despite what people claim monsters can still break units on the charge. Especially small weak units like 20 halberds, you were very lucky not to lose that combat. Also if you want a monster that can still smash units I would point you too the hellpit abomination!

Losing =/= breaking.

Monster gets bogged down and flanked by something that can hurt it = dead beastie.

The hellpit is silly.